1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,440 Speaker 1: Now I've got some great news for you. You're soon 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: going to be able to buy melatonin over the counter 3 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: like you're an adult living in the first world. Also, 4 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:10,960 Speaker 1: magic mushrooms will soon be able to be prescribed for 5 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: depression treatments. David Seymour is the Associate Minister of Health 6 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: who's brought the scent or is bringing this in and 7 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: he's with us. Now, Hi, David, it's wild that we 8 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: weren't allowed to buy melatonin or still aren't allowed. 9 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 2: Why is that? 10 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 3: I haven't actually been able to find out the band 11 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 3: was put in place in nineteen ninety six, or at 12 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 3: least not a band that was made prescription only, but 13 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 3: much like pseudo eff for Dream that we unleashed last year, 14 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 3: once it became prescription only, not enough people got prescription 15 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 3: and no one bought it into the country, and the 16 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:42,919 Speaker 3: whole thing dried up. 17 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 1: So what have across these stupid ideas? 18 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 3: Well, people, people have good ideas to get rid of 19 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 3: stupid rules. 20 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: Enough enough, But how do you come across these stupid rules? David? 21 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: Do people come to you and say, hey, listen, there's 22 00:00:57,880 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: this really stupid rule you should overturn it, or a 23 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: just reading through stuff and you go, why are you 24 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: doing that? 25 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 2: That's stupid. 26 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 3: We're getting a lot of feedback about melatonin and cybersyllain, 27 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 3: which we can talk about if you like magic mushrooms 28 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 3: as you described it. We had people right in the 29 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,199 Speaker 3: Ministry for Regulations now got a red tape tip line 30 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 3: which is supplying a lot of these ideas, and we're 31 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 3: just trying to deregulate something if we can every day. 32 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about the magic mushrooms. Now, this is 33 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: only available to people, I understand, who've already tried a 34 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: whole bunch of stuff to get rid of the depression 35 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: and it doesn't work. 36 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 2: Is that right? 37 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 3: Yeah? And look it's tempting, I think for people to 38 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 3: get in the son of everyone having magic mushies, but 39 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 3: they're actually very serious. Around the world, including here, there's 40 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 3: people with really serious, untreatable depression, and there's a serious 41 00:01:53,880 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 3: scientific research effort that has found that actually psilocybin is 42 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 3: something that can treat it when nothing else can. The 43 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 3: Food and Drug Administration, the FDA and the US has 44 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 3: recently consented it, so they're taking it seriously. And psychiatrists 45 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 3: in New Zealand have expressed that they'd like to be 46 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 3: able to prescribe it. Medsaf has said that one psychiatrist 47 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 3: initially will be able to Other psychiatrists can now apply 48 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 3: for the ability to prescribe, and I think it can 49 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,399 Speaker 3: make a big difference for people with a very very 50 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 3: serious mental health challenge. 51 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 2: Where's this one psychiatrist living. 52 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 3: That is something that we are not going to disclose 53 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,679 Speaker 3: because we don't want everyone in the country asking them 54 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 3: for psilocybin. They will be well, the simple reason that 55 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 3: they want to prescribe it for the patients that they have. 56 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 2: That's not fair, David. 57 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: Why should it only be a lucky a total lottery 58 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: as to whether you get the right psychiatrist or not. 59 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: Surely if somebody has tried absolutely everything in their living 60 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: with depression, they should know what the who the psychiatrist is, 61 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: so you can go see them and see if this 62 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: is appropriate. 63 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 3: Well, if they're in that situation, then their psychiatrists can 64 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 3: also apply to be able to prescribe it. So we 65 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,399 Speaker 3: are going to open this up a lot more. However, 66 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 3: the decision was that if it was to get out 67 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 3: that somebody had the ability to do this, then they 68 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 3: might get a lot of harassment because a lot of 69 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 3: people confuse this for their recreational drugs, and I totally 70 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 3: understand your point, but that's why we're not giving their name. 71 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 1: Okay, now, can you explain to me what is going 72 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: on with this weird plan that you have to make 73 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: it easier for bosses to be able to fire workers 74 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: who are earning one hundred and eighty thousand dollars or more. 75 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, the rule that is being put 76 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 3: in is exactly the same as Australia. So there's a 77 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 3: large country to the west of here where they don't 78 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 3: think it's weird at all. It's just the Norman. 79 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: It hasn't gone well for them. It's led to like 80 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: huge amounts of litigation. 81 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 3: Well, I mean a lot of laws lead to litigation. 82 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 3: That doesn't mean that the benefits of the law are 83 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 3: less than the costs of that litigation. There's lots of 84 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 3: litigation around our current employment law that we press on 85 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 3: with it. I also make the point that this is 86 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 3: an opportunity for a lot of people to get a job, 87 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 3: especially younger people trying to move up, because you can 88 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 3: put as many protections as you like and make it 89 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 3: very very difficult to dismiss someone if it doesn't work out. 90 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 3: But every action has an equal and opposite reaction. In 91 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 3: this case, if you make it very difficult to move 92 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 3: someone on if it doesn't work out, a lot of 93 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,119 Speaker 3: employers will compensate by being more hesitant to give someone 94 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 3: an opportunity in the first place. So simple question is, 95 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 3: do you want a dynamic economy with opportunities and growth 96 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 3: or do you want more of a Nana's economy where 97 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 3: you lock it down and say a few people who 98 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 3: are desperate to keep what's their even if they underperform, 99 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 3: take away opportunities. 100 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: You know that anybody can get fired a founder perform. 101 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: This is just to make fire and quicker and easier 102 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: for the bosses. But it seems to me you're taking 103 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: a political risk here because this is exactly the kind 104 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: of person earning this kind of money, who lives in EPSOM, 105 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: who lives in your electorate, who is likely to vote 106 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: for ACTS. So aren't you running the risk of pissing 107 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: off your own voters? 108 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 3: I read your column, Heather, and I think the thing 109 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 3: that is a bit weird it is your fixation with 110 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 3: the policy. And then to answer your question, first of all, 111 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 3: that the people that support ACTS typically are people who 112 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 3: are aspirational and they want an opportunity in their own future. 113 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 3: They want a dynamic economy, they want opportunities for their kids, 114 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 3: and putting a whole lot of red tape around employment law. 115 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 3: As I say, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. 116 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 3: But the second point that I'd make is that you know, 117 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 3: you said a second to go, oh, well, actually, it's 118 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 3: already easy to fire people, so this will make it 119 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 3: no difference. No, I didn't say that. 120 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 2: Don't misquote me. That's not fair. 121 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 3: I didn't. I didn't. 122 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: I said you can already fire somebody for underperformance. This 123 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: simply makes it easier and faster. 124 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, so we basically are talking about the same thing. 125 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 3: Now we both agree that if someone's underperforming that they 126 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 3: should be able to be let go. The question is 127 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 3: how much red ka fe and bureaucracy do you want 128 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 3: on that. If you want a more dynamic economy with 129 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 3: more opportunity, then that's this is the way to get it. 130 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 3: And I believe you talk about political risk people of 131 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 3: the EPSOM Electric. You know, they didn't get there by 132 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 3: being the kind of people that don't want to see 133 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 3: opportunity and dynamism in the economy and that's exactly what 134 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 3: this policy. 135 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: Is about, right David, thank you. I really appreciate time 136 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: is always and good work on the malatone and next. 137 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 1: David Cema, Associate Health Minister. For more from Hither Duplessy 138 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: Alan Drive, Listen live to news talks it'd be from 139 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.