1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: One of the questions today over the Jevin Mcskimming Andrew 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: Costa affair is whether there will be charges against laid 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 1: against any of these police officers. The Police Minister and 4 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: the current Police Commissioner, Richard Chambers are calling it a 5 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: cover up. Was there a cover up? 6 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 2: Well, look, the report speaks for itself and you know, 7 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 2: I know that people will interpret it. I've had a 8 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 2: lot of messages from Mike, how do. 9 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: You interpret to Oh, look, I think absolutely it is right. 10 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,159 Speaker 1: That's obviously. An interview from Morning Report this morning on 11 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: Radio New Zealand. Matthew Haig is a lawyer and a 12 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: former police officer and with us now hoime, Matthew, Hey, 13 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: do you think it's a cover up? 14 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 2: Yes? 15 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: Is that like a legal term or is that just 16 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: a vibe? 17 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:44,319 Speaker 2: No? I think it's more than a vibe. I think 18 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 2: this comprehensive report makes very clear that the senior executive 19 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 2: of our police sought to minimize avoid criminal liability because 20 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 2: of a commissioner appointment process which was completely inappropriate. 21 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: It does intent matter here? I mean, does it make 22 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: a difference if Andrew Costa was thought that the woman 23 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: was telling lies and he was trying to protect what 24 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: he thought was a good officer. Is that still a cover? 25 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: I think yes it is, And I think intent matters 26 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 2: for two reasons. One is what he touched on before, 27 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 2: which is is there any criminal liability here? And the 28 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 2: second is what we might what we see is corruption. 29 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 2: Some people might see corruption is the stereotypical police accepting 30 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 2: a bribe, but corruption is much wider than that. And 31 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 2: there's something called noble cause corruption, which I think is this, 32 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 2: in my opinion, is a good example. 33 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: Of what's noble cause corruption. 34 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 2: So noble course corruption is I think what the New 35 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 2: Zealand police are at morriskov, which is they do the 36 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 2: wrong thing for the right reason. And the vast majority 37 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 2: of the men and women and our police do the 38 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 2: right thing for the right reason. But it's tempting sometimes 39 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 2: to take shortcuts to do things and not quite the 40 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 2: right way for what they see as the greater reason. 41 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 2: But as we've seen in this case, that leads to 42 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: an undermining and trust in the place and really bad 43 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 2: results for everyone. 44 00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: Are there charges that can be laid as a result 45 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: of noble cause corruption? 46 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 2: No, But what I think commissioner will form a commissioner 47 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,239 Speaker 2: costa and some others should be concerned about is potentially 48 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 2: charges of perverting the course of justice. The report doesn't 49 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 2: make any conclusions, and I don't have any conclusions on 50 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 2: legal liability, but if someone improperly seeks to influence a 51 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 2: criminal investigation, which in my opinion the report clearly says 52 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 2: Deputy Commissioner Terror and Commissioner Costa did maybe in their 53 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 2: minds for the right reasons, and there could be that 54 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 2: criminal liability there. 55 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: Okay, do we need further investigations? 56 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 2: I think it's very likely there will be an investigation now, 57 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 2: and that would have started probably when the IPCA released 58 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 2: their draft report to the New Zealand plice. 59 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,119 Speaker 1: And who will be running that investigation? 60 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 2: It's a good question because normally I'd like to say 61 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 2: the police, but of course, in this case, at the 62 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 2: highest levels, the investigation is into the police. I think 63 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 2: the only lucky thing here is that there has been 64 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 2: a significant change in the police executive and to the 65 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 2: current Commissioner's credit, he's been incredibly outspoken, perhaps unusually so 66 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 2: for in his condemnation of this matter. 67 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: Yeah so, Lance Boudette suggested perhaps the Serious Fraud Office 68 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: would would they be the right ones? 69 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 2: No? In my opinion, No, I think the Serious Fraud 70 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,239 Speaker 2: Office do deal with serious corruption, but they tend to 71 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 2: be sort of more white collar financial crime. That's not 72 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 2: to say they can't. I just think it's a tough question. 73 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 2: I think the New Zealand Place should technically be doing it, 74 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 2: but they should probably appoint all kinds of independent expert 75 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 2: investigators to do the work. 76 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: I see. Okay, Now do you find it odd that 77 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: this has been released? The IPCA report has been released 78 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: and Richard Chambers has had some heads up in some 79 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: ability to read it, you know, a couple of weeks beforehand, 80 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: and yet no follow up investigations have yet been announced. 81 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: Or should we just be a patient? 82 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 2: I think I'm not surprised they haven't been announced, but 83 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 2: I think it's highly likely they will have started, or 84 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 2: least they will be in the process of starting. I 85 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 2: don't think you can read that report and come away 86 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 2: feeling satisfied that there may not be criminal liability that 87 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 2: less needs to be investigated, because that's not the job 88 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 2: of the IPSA. The IPCA is conduct. It's not criminal 89 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 2: investigations that has yet to be concluded. 90 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: Chances of charges being laid. 91 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 2: I don't know. Sorry, it's a unique situation. You know, honestly, 92 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 2: maybe unlikely but possible, but even unlikely but possible in 93 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 2: these circumstances is a pretty extraordinary state of affairs. 94 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: More serious or less serious than the Louise Nicholas case. 95 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: I think it's hard to compare the two because you're 96 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 2: dealing with women who have had incredibly horrific things happen 97 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 2: to them. I think they're worse in different ways. The 98 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 2: Louise Nicholas case it went to the high levels of 99 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 2: police leadership, but as far as when we're not to 100 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 2: the police executive and Wellington at this level, whereas this case, 101 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 2: it's just I can't understand how these senior, experience, trusted 102 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 2: leaders thought this would withstand scrutiny. 103 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, hey, thank you, Matthew. It's good to talk to you, 104 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: as always. Matthew Hayge, lawyer and former police officer. 105 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 2: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to 106 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:11,679 Speaker 2: news talks. 107 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast 108 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio.