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Speaker 1: Where are we at with the aut racist policy of

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Speaker 1: handing out a better travel deal for employees who happen

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Speaker 1: to be Mario Pacifica in requesting travel costs. What happens,

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Speaker 1: as I've told you throughout the week, you fill in

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Speaker 1: a form, if you happen to be the right race,

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Speaker 1: you get extra points. This of course goes against the

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Speaker 1: government that issued this time last week that explicitly states

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Speaker 1: race should not be a part of decision making. Tertiary

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Speaker 1: Minister Penny Simmons is with us on this morning to

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Speaker 1: you good morning right now. They defend it, don't they?

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Speaker 2: Yes, they do, And look they have an absolute right

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Speaker 2: to defend it. And the Education and Training at twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty gives them that independence and that autonomy to make

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Speaker 2: those decisions, So that is very clear. I can't direct

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Speaker 2: them to take notice of the Cabinet circular or the

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Speaker 2: intent in it. I can only draw it to their attention. Look,

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Speaker 2: I think, and I've spoken with the Vice Chance for

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Speaker 2: their damon and I think that aut have got some

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Speaker 2: good rationale behind this decision. And they are a very

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Speaker 2: new university. They have a very high proportion of Mariyan

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Speaker 2: Pacifica students. Their proportionality of staff is not near as

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Speaker 2: high as their student ratio. And also they are trying

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Speaker 2: to build up the research capability of their Mariya and

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Speaker 2: PACIFICA staff. So you know, I've had a good discussion there.

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Speaker 2: I think, though, Mike, what I'm more worried about is

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Speaker 2: this wider issue across all universities around the robustness of

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Speaker 2: their decision making. So universities have got various layers in

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Speaker 2: their decision making processes, committees and boards and senates, and

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Speaker 2: I'm seeing numerous surveys and reports and feedback about the

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Speaker 2: constraints on the ability of academic staff to give their

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Speaker 2: opinion freely in this decision making.

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Speaker 1: Well, well that's all part of it, isn't it, And

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Speaker 1: that's the problem. An more, by the way it was

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Speaker 1: on the program yesterday, he did point out that the

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Speaker 1: circular that came out from Cabinet last week did exclude

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Speaker 1: university So I fully understand that. Did you express in

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Speaker 1: a way that they would understand at the very least

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Speaker 1: the government's view on these matters generally, therefore putting your

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Speaker 1: side of the case across or were you a bit

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Speaker 1: weak willed? Penny?

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Speaker 2: Now I'm going to write to all the universities drawing

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Speaker 2: their attention to the circular and the intent behind the circular.

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Speaker 2: So I'll acknowledge, of course, their autonomy, but I want

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Speaker 2: to draw the attention to that. But more than that,

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Speaker 2: like I'm going to draw their attention to their decision

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Speaker 2: making process and ask them to reflect on how robust

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Speaker 2: it is, because this is where I think the issue is.

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Speaker 2: It's staff not having that ability to speak freely.

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Speaker 1: And so that's what a university is, isn't it? Or

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Speaker 1: supposed to be.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it should be. And so there are decisions being made.

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Speaker 2: The recent run about Auckland University having the compulsory horse

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Speaker 2: on chal Mardi and the treaty you speak.

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Speaker 1: Of, why Papa tol Marta rowe I do?

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Speaker 2: I do? And so I think it is really important

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Speaker 2: to go back that step and look at their decision

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Speaker 2: making process because while we used to grumble about how

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Speaker 2: slow and cumbersome that made, the decision making process, that

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Speaker 2: should be where the winnowing out of ideas takes place.

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Speaker 2: And so that's where I think there is an issue.

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Speaker 2: I'm also going to Sir Peter Gluckman in his review

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Speaker 2: and his panel to have a look at these processes

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Speaker 2: and dig into more whether we are getting the robustness

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Speaker 2: that we need and the freedom of speech within those processes.

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Speaker 1: Well, we discovered the other day in our family this

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Speaker 1: why Papa tol Marta Ry. We didn't have any idea

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Speaker 1: that this was compulsory. We didn't think that compulsory anything

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Speaker 1: at university was the way universities worked. We were shocked

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Speaker 1: at what we discovered at that. They claim it gets

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Speaker 1: you ready for life? Do you think it gets you

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Speaker 1: ready for life?

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Speaker 2: Pens Look, I haven't seen the paper, but it's a

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Speaker 2: pretty big call to make a paper compulsory like that,

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Speaker 2: and so that's why I am wanting to look at

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Speaker 2: the decision making process to make sure that there was

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Speaker 2: freedom of expression in the opinions of academic staff getting

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Speaker 2: to that decision. And look in the finish, people will

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Speaker 2: make their decisions about which universities they attend overseas, students

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Speaker 2: will make their decisions about whether they want to attend

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Speaker 2: universities where there are compulsory papers like this.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. Good to see you have a good week. I

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Speaker 1: appreciate it very much. Penny Simmons, Tish re Education Minister. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well look it up, why Papa Tomatrau. It gets you

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Speaker 1: ready for university, and it gets you ready for life.

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Speaker 1: Once upon a time. You go to university and explore

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Speaker 1: and just do whatever you want.

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Speaker 2: I thought the point of going to university was to

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Speaker 2: put off real life.

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Speaker 1: While there was that and drinking and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: But you know so, and this is the story I

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Speaker 1: told you the other day. When we went along, they

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Speaker 1: couldn't explain it. And that was the problem because you

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Speaker 1: know what Katie's like. She started asking questions and they

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Speaker 1: just could not explain what it really was. For more

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Speaker 1: from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to news talks

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