1 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Liam Dan, New Zealand Herald's Business editor at 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: Large and welcome to this episode of Money Talks. This 3 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: is a podcast about money, but we're not going to 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: tell you how to get rich, and we're not going 5 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,159 Speaker 1: to try and pick the next interest rate move. In 6 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: this series, I'll be talking to interesting New Zealanders about 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: how money has shaped their lives and what they've learned 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: over the years. For today's podcast, I'm joined by popular 9 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: financial advisor, author and founder of enable Me, Hannah McQueen cure. Hannah, 10 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 1: welcome to Money Talks. 11 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 2: Thank you. 12 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: Look I said popular there in the intro. You have 13 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: become a little bit of a household name from media 14 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 1: appearances over the years. Do you get people recognizing you 15 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: in the street and asking for money advice? Now, yes, 16 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: I do. 17 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 2: Whether I'm at the mall or I'm doing something maybe 18 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 2: in a restaurant, and someone will come over normally as 19 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 2: I've got a mouthful off foods to ask a question 20 00:00:58,560 --> 00:00:59,279 Speaker 2: or to say. 21 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's wondering what if you're splashing out and 22 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:03,639 Speaker 1: you know it's not a. 23 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 2: Good look if I've got shopping bags, for sure. 24 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: But you're generally happy to sort of chat to. 25 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 2: Of course, Yeah, of course I love talking to people. 26 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 2: And I think when it comes to money, it's such 27 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 2: an emotional, an emotional topic, and if someone feels comfortable 28 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 2: talking to you or then that's probably the only person 29 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 2: that there are willing to take advice from. So it's 30 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 2: a privilege. 31 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: So any big question, you have one or two big 32 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: questions that you get most often? 33 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:38,559 Speaker 2: Yep, the big questions, how do we get ahead? I 34 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 2: don't think I'm going to be able to retire? What 35 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 2: can I do? Or the conclusions people make that they 36 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: don't really ask about, but say as a statement, I'm 37 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 2: not really that bad with my money, therefore I can't 38 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 2: see how I could be much better. Therefore there obviously 39 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 2: isn't anything I could do. That's sort of I get it, 40 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 2: like why they've made those conclusions, but it's not quite 41 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 2: the right conclusion. 42 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: Well we'll get into some of that. I mean, I'm 43 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,679 Speaker 1: in a slightly different space more economics. I tend to 44 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: get the question, you know what's going to They want 45 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: me to protect the future. You know, what's going to 46 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,119 Speaker 1: happen to interest rates, what's going to happen to the economy, 47 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: And I don't know how worried should we be about whatever? 48 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: And I always say, how worried do you like to? 49 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: Because there's always something to worry about. 50 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 2: That's right, worry about what you can control usually. 51 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, let's jump back a bit because money talks 52 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 1: are sort of about memories of money and things. What 53 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: were your first memories of having money in your hands 54 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: and holding money? Do you remember when it first entered 55 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: your consciousness? 56 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 2: Yep? I remember, I don't know, getting paid twenty cents 57 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 2: to do something. I remember my first purchase that I 58 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: really saved up for, which was a pair of white 59 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 2: rebox right, that was my big first purchase. And I 60 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 2: remember saving up for cassette tapes as well. 61 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah, so this this was things that were like 62 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: at the rebox obviously, where they were too flash for 63 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: the parents just to buy. 64 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, my parents wouldn't have been able to afford them, 65 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 2: or wouldn't have wanted to spend money even if they 66 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 2: could have afforded them on something so trite in their mind. 67 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: Well, it's a good, good life lesson as well, though, 68 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: isn't it, because it sort of gets you focused on 69 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 1: what you have to do to get there. 70 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 2: That's right, you break it down into your little steps. 71 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 2: And I don't know what. I had a little part 72 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 2: time job. I used to deliver pamphlets, and I think 73 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 2: I worked in the library, and I used to do 74 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 2: some busking, and I think I got paid a lot 75 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 2: one particular date, and I think that it was from 76 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 2: a shop owner next to where I was busking, which 77 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: was the difference, so I could get my shoes. But 78 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 2: I think they were paying me to stop playing, as 79 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 2: opposed to reward my amazing singing. 80 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: I wasn't just guitar or a corder. 81 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: I was playing what was it, clarinet? I think was 82 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 2: the main one. 83 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: There always a joint. 84 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 2: I don't know. I look back, like, why did you 85 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 2: let me play that? 86 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: I was quite taken in one while I read it 87 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: said you're encouraged by your mother to read the business 88 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: pages in the newspaper from a young age, and that 89 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: that was sort of where you spotted that you realized 90 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: that a large percentage of CEOs out there were accountants, 91 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: and then it sparked your interest. I mean, what do 92 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: you remember from the business pages in those days? 93 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 2: Well, it felt like a different world, really, And I 94 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 2: guess you've got an option as to whether you want 95 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: to be the person who waits on the table or 96 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 2: sits at the table. And I always wanted to be 97 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 2: someone who sat at the table from a career perspective. 98 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 2: And my mum highlighted to me very early on that 99 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 2: I've got expensive tastes or I like nice things, and 100 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: so I'm going to need to have to earn good 101 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 2: money for that lifestyle. And so that just sort of 102 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 2: put me on a course. And she said, why don't 103 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 2: you start reading the business pages and see what people 104 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 2: are talking about, see what jobs are available. And maybe 105 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 2: I was at intermediate when I started doing that, so 106 00:04:55,920 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 2: quite young, and it definitely shaped a path for me. 107 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: I mean, we find I've found over the years of 108 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: business journalism that people come into it as they get 109 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: the mortgage and as they get a bit older, they 110 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: get worried and they start reading them. But I guess, 111 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: you know, to understand it's quite an advantage really to 112 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: understand that language and just understand it's almost like a 113 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: sort of soap opera of the economy, then what's happening 114 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: in business, And it's not that hard once you make 115 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 1: the leap into it. I always think. 116 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, and I think it can be 117 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 2: quite intimidating. So so many people I work with now 118 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 2: wouldn't describe themselves as financially literate, say, they wouldn't nessarily 119 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,919 Speaker 2: give themselves that title apart from the fact they know 120 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 2: a lot, but not enough to conclude that they are 121 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,919 Speaker 2: confident in this area. And I think sometimes when you 122 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 2: come to it too late, you well, I guess perhaps 123 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 2: it's better to understate what you are instead of overstate. 124 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 2: And I think worse than the person who thinks they 125 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 2: know it all. I've got a few of those cuiet like, dude, 126 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 2: you dial it back, you do not know what you're 127 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: even talking about. But that confidence, so they can be 128 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 2: a little reckless. 129 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but I mean at some point, I guess, 130 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: and i'd certainly feel us through the economic side is 131 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 1: that you know, to actually make money or get financially secure, 132 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: you have to act and you have to put things 133 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: in place. It's all very well to know a lot 134 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: of stuff, but you have to choose to enact inment. 135 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 2: Yes, I do think that there's a big gap between 136 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 2: knowing what to do, especially around money, and doing it. 137 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 2: And weirdly we're taught that financial literacy is important, but 138 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 2: it actually accounts for less than three percent of what 139 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 2: you need to be financially successful. And what I say 140 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 2: to my children but also my clients is like financial success, 141 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 2: it is not a right. No one deserves that. You 142 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 2: have to be deliberate. If you want that title of 143 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 2: being successful, you've got to claim it. Yeah, and it's 144 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 2: so different than what it once was as to how 145 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 2: to be successful, because two generations ago, as long as 146 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 2: you weren't bad with money, you were going to be okay. 147 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, you get a job for life and you take 148 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 1: the rights. 149 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 2: That's right, and the mortgage won't be that high relative 150 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 2: to your income, so by default you'll be mortgage free 151 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 2: by retirement. And you would have been contributing to a 152 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 2: pension scheme. And there were no cafes and there were 153 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 2: no credit cards, so all these things are just easier, right, 154 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 2: Whereas now, even if you live within your means, which 155 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 2: was sort of one of the mantras they lived by, 156 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 2: even if you do that, you were unlikely to own 157 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 2: a property, and you're certainly unlikely to retire without a mortgage, 158 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 2: and you're doing well, you're not bad. 159 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,239 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. One of those generational war things 160 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: that comes up a lot in articles and is that 161 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: spending the money on the cafes and the avocado toast 162 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: and all that sort of stuff, But there probably is. 163 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: In talking to older you know, older people on this podcast, 164 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: you know, you get the sense that there wasn't and 165 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: I sort of remember it, there wasn't as much to 166 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: spend your money on. And it's not necessarily a choice. 167 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: You've got to live in the world you live in, 168 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: and it does people do sort of have to consume 169 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: more to live in the modern world. 170 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 2: Well, yes, I think there's a lot of a lot 171 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 2: of elements to it. I do think the conditions are 172 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 2: harder because costs are higher, and we work longer, we've 173 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 2: got less time, so we need convenience. You got to 174 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 2: pay for convenience, all of those things. Conditions are harder. 175 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 2: But in addition to that, the generation that has to 176 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 2: live in it is a little more useless as well 177 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 2: financially speaking. So that's kind of the worst combo because 178 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 2: when it gets harder, you're supposed to get better. Yeah, 179 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: And they've got harder conditions and they are just they 180 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 2: just have no clue. 181 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: We've got more variables to manage, I guess, Yeah, that's right, 182 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: just to keep going on that sort of life journey. 183 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: But you know, so at school were you interested in 184 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: finance and economics? Did you take the subjects at school? 185 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 2: I did, Yeah, I found maths fairly easy. I enjoyed 186 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 2: English as well. Those are probably my favorite subjects. And 187 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 2: then I did the accounting and economics and young Enterprise 188 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 2: Scheme and all of those things. 189 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: So you're wearing to go but obviously because you left 190 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: school a year early and men straight to you uniit ye, yes, 191 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: that right, Yes, I did. 192 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 2: And did my commerce degree and did I've got my 193 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 2: master's in tax as well, and then ended up going 194 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 2: to working at one of the big four accounting firms. 195 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 2: And that's sort of where I started. And I didn't 196 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 2: even I was just a girl from Havelock, North right. 197 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 2: Even the idea of university was quite big. But that 198 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 2: just opened up a whole world of opportunities. Yes, connections, yes, 199 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 2: but the mechanics of how commerce really worked was interesting 200 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: to me. 201 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. And so were your parents involved in that world? 202 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: I mean, have a lot North is probably not that 203 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: much fun interes stuff going on with it, you know, 204 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: just middle. 205 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 2: Class income dad, self employed, mum working part time, just 206 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 2: never wanted for anything, but didn't live large. But no, 207 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 2: it was I think I was the first person on 208 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 2: both sets of the family to go to university. 209 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting and then you know, getting into KPMG right, 210 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: And I often ask people there's a lot of people 211 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: have started in one of those big four you know, 212 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: you go on to cb CEOs or whatever, and always 213 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: ask because there are some people who stay with it. 214 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: It can be like a lifelong thing. You know, you 215 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: can go around the world with work in Singapore and 216 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: London and New York and all those sort of things. 217 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: Was there a reason that you didn't you didn't get 218 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: sort of sucked into the sort of the world and 219 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: want to stay there because you can live a very 220 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,439 Speaker 1: nice life working your way through one of those big organizations. 221 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 2: Yes you can, and for some people that is the 222 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 2: right path. For me, I'm not. Although I am a 223 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 2: qualified charted accountant, I'm not an accountant. I'm aware of 224 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 2: risk and I mitigate risk, but I'm not fearful of risk. Yeah, 225 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 2: I'm entrepreneurial. I want to push the boundaries. I want 226 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 2: to challenge status quo and all of that stuff is 227 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: not really welcome in those settings for reasons, like specific reasons, 228 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 2: and so I think I. 229 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 1: Was It's very structured, doesn't it. 230 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 2: I mean instructure, and they think a particular way and 231 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 2: they are paid to think a particular society needs them 232 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: to think a particular way because they are sounding board 233 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 2: for so many different things. But you're not going to 234 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 2: get creativity. They are needed. But that's not where I 235 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 2: was able to fit in. And although I was earning 236 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 2: very good money, I still wasn't getting ahead, which was 237 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 2: sort of the mirror reflection. And I think that was 238 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 2: the first lesson for me that Okay, well I am 239 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 2: financially literate and I'm financially confident and I'm earning good income, 240 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 2: so that should be like the three trump cards right there. 241 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 2: Yet it's not translating to progress. And I'm not stupid, 242 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 2: but why is that? 243 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, so a missing piece of the puzzle, that's right. 244 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 2: And so I think earning money doesn't mean that you 245 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,199 Speaker 2: know how to grow wealth, and I wanted to go 246 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 2: on a journey to try and understand that. With me. 247 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: I guess it's the guinea pick of that journey. 248 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we see that with people who win 249 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: lotto and suddenly four years later they've got no money, 250 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: and you know, just just getting money, isn't some in itself? 251 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 2: Often No, No, I've got a few lotto clients actually, 252 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 2: some who have won it as they were a client, 253 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 2: so we had the structures in place, and we've doubled 254 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,839 Speaker 2: their winnings, which was amazing. Some who came to me 255 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 2: after they lost it, right, yeah, not ideal, yeah yeah, 256 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 2: and some who were in the process of losing it 257 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 2: because we read. 258 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: Those stories, you know, and you hope that the lotto 259 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: people put the winners in touch with good financial advice 260 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: and get them on a path to that. Yeah. 261 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 2: I think one of the troubles with money or any 262 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 2: form of financial advice is it often is about where 263 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 2: to invest your money, and the person giving the advice 264 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 2: often has a vested interest in what that investment vehicle is. 265 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 2: So as an accountant, I'm like, you're so conflicted in 266 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 2: what you're saying, which whether that's right or wrong. That's 267 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 2: certainly what I concluded that financial advice comes from product 268 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 2: placement in this country and for a lot of the people, 269 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 2: say who win big, whether that's getting an inheritance, a 270 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 2: big bonus, or the extreme of lotto. If they don't 271 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 2: have the systems and the behaviors in place and the 272 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,719 Speaker 2: right people around them. Easy come, easy go. 273 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. So from KPMG you went to a mortgage broking 274 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,599 Speaker 1: type firm, Yes, yep, And from what I've read, it's 275 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: sort of had an interesting ending. So I won't mention them, 276 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: but take me through coming up with the idea for 277 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: the business's enabled me and how that ended up. 278 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 2: So obviously, with my background being accounting in law and 279 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 2: tax and wanting to understand how you grow wealth, whether 280 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 2: that's through managed funds or the property market with leverage, 281 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 2: leverage became such an important part of an investment type, 282 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 2: so using the bank's money, and I wanted to understand, okay, well, 283 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 2: how do you actually get access to this bank's money? 284 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 2: Like I've I've got my own property, I've got my 285 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 2: own mortgage, But what's actually how come someone can get 286 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 2: access to more money than me and I feel like 287 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 2: we've got the same position. These were some of the 288 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 2: things that I was curious about. So I'm like, okay, 289 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 2: well I'm going to get under the hood and I'm 290 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 2: going to work at a mortgage brokering firm to try 291 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 2: and understand how the banks see people because they've got 292 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 2: their own kind of weird calculators they apply. And as 293 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 2: part of that, I was talking to one of my 294 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 2: colleagues and she said, I would be so good if 295 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: we help people get out of debt rather than into debt. 296 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 2: I'm like, what a great idea. And so we waddled 297 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 2: up to our CEO and said and like I was 298 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 2: pretty much a graduate, you know, my early twenties, knew 299 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 2: nothing but felt I knew it all. And I went 300 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 2: to the MD and said, hey, why don't we help 301 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 2: people get out of there? This is an idea instead 302 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 2: of into debt, and it's a great idea. Draw us 303 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 2: up a business plans. We drew up a business plan, 304 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 2: took it to him and he said, you're fired, blunt, 305 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 2: And I didn't even get it because I'm very logical 306 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 2: and I'm definitely not emotional in a high stress situation. 307 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 2: Sort of one of my little secret weapons is that 308 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 2: I can be calm and cool, but I can't understand 309 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: people who do really dumb things. And so I'm like, 310 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: we have given you our business plan, we've told you 311 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 2: what we want to do, and we've said we want 312 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: to do it with you, Like what world. Are we 313 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 2: going into competition with you? But I don't know if 314 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 2: it's men, I don't know if it's insecure people. But 315 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 2: he was not having a bar of it. And so 316 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: like I am. I am the definition of a goody 317 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 2: good I love to please people. And being fired from 318 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 2: a job at like twenty one or twenty two or 319 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 2: whatever it was maybe maybe it was early twenties, Yeah, 320 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 2: that felt just humiliated. 321 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's tough. I think anyone losing the job, even 322 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: with a good redundancy and all that sort of stuff, 323 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: it's always quite a blow, isn't it. 324 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 2: We were marched, so not only was I made where 325 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 2: we fired, but we had to have box. It was 326 00:15:55,600 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 2: like very American. And I remember calling my husband and said, 327 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 2: can you come and pick me up? And he came 328 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 2: and picked I said what had happened? And he came 329 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 2: and picked me up on his motorbike, and I'm like, 330 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 2: what am I supposed to do with this box? And 331 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 2: it was just like failure after failure In any case. 332 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 2: One of the benefits of being completely humiliated is you 333 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 2: don't really have fear because you have lost everything you 334 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 2: held there. And so that's when I thought, Okay, well, 335 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 2: maybe we should help people get out of there. 336 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: So it's a leap. You know that that leap to 337 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: go into business for yourself is quite daunting for people. 338 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: I guess this was a sort of a push. 339 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was exactly a push with a gun to 340 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 2: your head. And so at that stage, I wasn't even 341 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 2: sure what I was going to do. I felt I 342 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 2: felt all options were kind of taken off the table. 343 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 2: And that's when I thought, Okay, well, maybe maybe there 344 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 2: is something in this business idea. Because it's easy to 345 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 2: have a business idea if someone else is going to 346 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 2: bank roll it, which was going to be the idea, 347 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 2: But when it's you bank and you've still got your 348 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 2: mortgage and you've got all these other commitments, it's game 349 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 2: on at that point, right, Like that's that's the big 350 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 2: boy table. And so I thought, okay, maybe there is 351 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 2: something in it. And that's when I started trying to 352 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 2: work out, well, if I was going to pay my 353 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 2: debt off faster, let's start with how would I structure 354 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 2: my debt to do that. And that's when I started 355 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 2: working through like the calculus algebra of how I should 356 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,959 Speaker 2: structure it. And I think the epiphany of that was 357 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 2: who knew that calculus paper at university actually has come 358 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 2: in handy? 359 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 1: Who knew? 360 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 2: Because you know, you do these papers in your life. 361 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 2: I'm never going to apply this ever in life. What 362 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 2: a waste of time. And so I got far enough 363 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 2: to realize I didn't know that much calculus, and I 364 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 2: ended up calling the mathematics department of the University of 365 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 2: Auckland to ask one of their math students if they 366 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 2: would help me work on this formula to pay my 367 00:17:55,040 --> 00:18:00,479 Speaker 2: debt off faster at the lowest cost. Because I working 368 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 2: through the mortgage broker, and I came to realize that 369 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,479 Speaker 2: you pay three times what you borrow back to the bank, 370 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 2: and they the banks would have us focus on interest 371 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,959 Speaker 2: rate discounts and things. And it's like for me on 372 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 2: my mortgage, which was three hundred and fifty thousand, I think, 373 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 2: so I was going to pay a million dollars back. 374 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 2: The interest rate that I was fighting for was going 375 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 2: to save me twelve thousand dollars out of the million dollars. 376 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 2: And I'm I think I'm focusing on the wrong thing here, 377 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 2: and I think it suits them that I focus on 378 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 2: this thing. So anyway, I went to work for a 379 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 2: few months with this particular mathematician at the university, and 380 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 2: we came up with this formula of how to structure 381 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 2: my mortgage to pay it off quickly, at the lowest 382 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 2: cost and with the most flexibility, because that became more 383 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 2: important than I realized at the time, but just a 384 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,479 Speaker 2: general awareness that usually whenever you show initiative, you regret 385 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 2: it about a day later. And so if you were 386 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 2: going to commit more money to your mortgage, which could 387 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 2: help you pay it off faster, you probably will need 388 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 2: that money back at some point. And you've dug in 389 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 2: showing initiative, You've actually made it hard for future you 390 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 2: and you haven't even realized it, which became more prevalent 391 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 2: as I got on to enable me. However, those three 392 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 2: things interest costs, speed of pain off the debt, and flexibility. 393 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 2: And I patented that formula and it would save me 394 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 2: the size of my mortgage and interest costs. And I'm 395 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 2: so three hundred and fifty grand back then, and so 396 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 2: I'm okay, I've got it, and then I'm like, hold 397 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 2: on a minute. For this formula to work, I need 398 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 2: to have money left over, because it's about channeling your 399 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 2: surplus into the mortgage and I don't have money left over. 400 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: So then you can into budgeting and there. 401 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I can write a budget. I'm an accountant. 402 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 2: I can color code a budget. I just wouldn't stick 403 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 2: to a budget. 404 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. 405 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, And then I'm like, and why is that? And 406 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 2: that's when I thought hold on, Behavioral economics has more 407 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 2: of a role to play here than financial literacy. And 408 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 2: that's when I spent time researching and experimenting with behavioral 409 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,239 Speaker 2: economics why people behave a particular way, and based on that, 410 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 2: how you should respond? Yeah, because I think changing people 411 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 2: like if you if you're programmed to be a spender 412 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 2: as I am, it's not that I can't save. I 413 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 2: just need a reason to save. So engaging me is 414 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 2: different to how you would engage a savor. Yeah, who 415 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 2: actually enjoys not spending money? Who knew that that was 416 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 2: a thing. 417 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting as we were talking about that earlier, 418 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: you know, just because it's it's similar to sort of 419 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: you can read financial articles and the other articles you 420 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 1: read about, you know, weight loss and how to change 421 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 1: your eating habits, and you can read these things over 422 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: and over again. But unless you're able to somehow integrate 423 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: it into your life and actually exactly act on it 424 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: or make it work, you know, reduce the calories somehow. 425 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 1: You know, there needs to be practical ways to make 426 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: it work. 427 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, you need to have the systems. Like 428 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 2: if you go back to kind of form three science, 429 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 2: when they're teaching you about momentum, right, they would roll 430 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 2: and marble across the science desk or something and say, 431 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: when you introduce friction, it slows the pace of the marble. 432 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 2: And I think, well, for anything, but when you're trying 433 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 2: to create progress or financial progress, when you introduce friction, 434 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 2: it slows things down. And the biggest friction to progress 435 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 2: often is your own tendencies around money. And so if 436 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 2: we can make that process where the tendencies aren't fighting 437 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 2: against what you're trying to achieve, how easy can we 438 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 2: make it for you, You're more likely to keep doing it 439 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 2: and get that momentum. 440 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: So I guess a lot of what you're doing with 441 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: clients is that kind of behavior or economic psychology comes 442 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: into it. It's understanding your own. Yes, the way each 443 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: client to each person or reader of your book is 444 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: you have to understand yourself and you have to understand 445 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: what motivates you and what actually stops you achieving things, 446 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: and then integrate formulas into it. 447 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 2: That's right, there's almost two components of it. So when 448 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 2: it comes to maximizing your soup, that is all behavioral economics. 449 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 2: That's to do with your money, beliefs, your tendencies, how 450 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 2: you respond like that's sort of got nothing to do 451 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 2: with your financial position as such. It's just who you are, 452 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 2: what you're not, who you need to hear it from 453 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 2: to actually do it. Those that components. That's psychology. Creating 454 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 2: wealth is science that is calculated steps in a particular 455 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 2: way to maximize an output. But if you haven't got 456 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 2: the psychology and the behaviors right, you never get to 457 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 2: the wealth part. And what I maybe twenty years ago 458 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 2: the surplus wasn't as important as it is now. But 459 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 2: and back in the day, you could sort of almost 460 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,959 Speaker 2: if you bought a property, you were gonna be okay 461 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 2: because the conditions were always favorable enough. Even if you 462 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 2: had no clue whether you were buying the right property 463 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 2: and never had a strategy of how you're going to 464 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,640 Speaker 2: hold it, you were gonna probably be okay. Whereas now 465 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 2: all that has happened is the margin of error to 466 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 2: get it wrong is very, very small, and if you 467 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 2: don't perform in the acceptable range, you are likely to 468 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 2: get yourself burned. 469 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, yea. And also I mean, I feel like, as 470 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 1: I've got older, and you know, obviously I'm in the 471 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: industry to some extent, I've learned enough about myself to 472 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 1: understand it. But some people will never get it. But 473 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 1: some people sort of learn the stuff later in life 474 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: when it's almost you know that the time for the 475 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: big gains is almost gone. And so getting people to 476 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: understand at a younger age, or helping them to understand 477 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: at a younger age what their drivers and their barriers 478 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: are is probably pretty key to them, you know, because 479 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: of course wealth, you know, snowballs over a long period 480 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: of time if you can get going the right way earlier. 481 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 2: I think one of the benefits of being slightly older, though, 482 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 2: is that you know your runway is short. You've got 483 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 2: one shot to get this right, so you bring your 484 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 2: a game, whereas sometimes when you start too early there 485 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 2: is no real urgency. There's still a romance around under 486 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 2: pretty much everything right, it's not until you yet you 487 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 2: more good, You have your kids. Okay, this is it, 488 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 2: and so I think it is about understanding what your 489 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 2: trump cards are and how you play them. But I 490 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 2: don't think people are particularly good at determining what their 491 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 2: trump cards are. So we think that the trump card 492 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 2: is you should just earn more money. That surely, if 493 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 2: you earn good money, surely you're going to be financially successful. 494 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 2: But all that happens is for most of us, the 495 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 2: more you earn, the more relaxed you become around your money, 496 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 2: and so it doesn't translate to you being becoming more deliberate. 497 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 2: You just have lifestyle creep, So that's not really a 498 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 2: trump card. A trump card might be that you are single, 499 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 2: so you don't have which normally would be perhaps a 500 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 2: financial detriment. But if you don't have a partner that's 501 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 2: sucking your money, that might be here at a trump card. Kids. 502 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 2: If you don't have kids, that is certainly a trump card, 503 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 2: and if your kids aren't talented, that is a trump card. 504 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 2: But if you are older, you've got five years until retirement, 505 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 2: I would say that's your trump card because it's game 506 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 2: on the rubbers, hitting the road here, and there is 507 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 2: a willingness to do what is needed to get the 508 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 2: job done and that mindset shift that only comes from 509 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:12,959 Speaker 2: the fact that your runway. You can see the end 510 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 2: of your runway. That is a trump cart. 511 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, you've become an author. You've turned some of this 512 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,239 Speaker 1: into a couple of books, I think, and you've got 513 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: one out now. I mean, how was that process and 514 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: how did you find sort of trying to codify it 515 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,400 Speaker 1: all into an easy read. 516 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 2: I guess it was good. It was good because I 517 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 2: work with so many clients. I think I have this. 518 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 2: I think since I've started Enabled Me, I've been doing 519 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 2: it for sixteen years, I've had twenty thousand client meetings. 520 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 1: It's a lot of case studies. 521 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 2: There's a lot of case studies. I feel like I've 522 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 2: seen it all. And with that, you realize that some 523 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 2: things are important, some things we are taught are important 524 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 2: financially but actually aren't. And some things that you don't 525 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 2: even think are important are more prolific in your success 526 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 2: than what you would ever know. But I have seen it. 527 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 2: I've worked with people who are just starting out at sixteen, 528 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 2: that's my youngest client through to eighty six, no money 529 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,439 Speaker 2: or in debt, through to one hundred million. Most of 530 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 2: us don't have anywhere close to that. But this is 531 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 2: kind of the extreme. I've had clients that are financially compatible, 532 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 2: clients that aren't, some that don't even know how to 533 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 2: set goals, some who don't know how to stick to 534 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 2: a budget. Like just I feel like I've seen it all, 535 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 2: and I've seen behind the curtain and under the hood, 536 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 2: and sometimes i feel I'm more of a marriage counselor 537 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 2: than a financial advisor, or I'm a cheerleader or whatever 538 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 2: it is. But I know, irrespective of what I'm working with, 539 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 2: what I need to do to get this person into 540 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 2: a better financial position. And it feels great to be 541 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 2: able to present that so people can read it for themselves. 542 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean at sixteen years, have you noticed trends change. 543 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: I've noticed that, you know, there has been a resurgence 544 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: of young people getting back into the markets with Chasy's 545 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: and things and bitcoin, but there's also a sort of 546 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: a it's very much a lot of young men starting 547 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: out trading sneakers, bitcoin, shazy's all that kind of stuff, 548 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 1: quite quite high risk, kind of glamoury end of it all. 549 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: I mean, do you see see these trends come through? 550 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, there are trends, and certainly where there's glamour 551 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 2: attached to it, the trend seems to be higher. I 552 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 2: think that no matter whoever you are, you always benefit 553 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 2: from having a plan that excites you, and trying to 554 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 2: unlock what that could be for you is quite important. 555 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 2: So I had a client that, to the outside world 556 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 2: very successful, earning a couple of one hundred thousand a year, 557 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 2: female at the top of her game, and no savings, 558 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 2: so it doesn't own a home, actually has short term debt, 559 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 2: no savings. On one hand, you're like, how is that 560 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 2: even possible? I mean, come on. And some of it 561 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 2: to do with the beliefs how she's been taught about money, 562 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 2: the role of money in your life when she was 563 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 2: a young child, the fact that her parents didn't know 564 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 2: how to manage money, the fact that she makes more 565 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 2: money than her peers, so she sort of feels guilty 566 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,400 Speaker 2: about that, so then wants to be generous. So all 567 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 2: these reasons which help explain, but don't show you what 568 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 2: to do differently, right, And so I said to her, 569 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,199 Speaker 2: what is your tendency around money? And she says, well, 570 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 2: I like to spend I'm a shopper. And how what's 571 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 2: your spending style? And she says, I'm fast and I'm loose. 572 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 2: I love it. I'm like, we're going to be good friends. 573 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 2: And for her, she never thought she could pay off 574 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 2: the debt, the short term debt, So the idea of 575 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 2: owning a house just seemed improbable. So what is the 576 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 2: point of trying? 577 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: Right? Yeah, and a lot of kiwi young kikiwis probably 578 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: do feel like that exactly. 579 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 2: They genuinely think they're not going to be able to 580 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 2: get onto the housing ladder. And they can. They just 581 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 2: what their parents. It is unlikely to be the way 582 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 2: that they get there. Yeah, and the parents are the 583 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 2: ones giving them their advice. Oh gosh, So I think 584 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 2: we economically, we can't afford for this next generation to 585 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 2: feel like they can't make progress. That's dangerous when you 586 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 2: remove hope from a generation, financial hope. And whether it's 587 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 2: right or wrong, close to ninety percent of that generation 588 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 2: measure financial successes being able to own a property. Yeah 589 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 2: and so, and then eighty percent feel they never will. 590 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, this is not a This is not 591 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:37,719 Speaker 2: a healthy coupling for the whole country. 592 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. Look, I've got a few quick fire money talks 593 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: questions here. One of them is what would be the 594 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: poorest you've ever been at university? A poor student? 595 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 2: Poor student? I hated it. I was actually talking to 596 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 2: my son about that. I said, I was just so 597 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 2: eager to fin university, so I finished it a little 598 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 2: bit earlier by working harder, and because I hated being poor. 599 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: Did you have to take on debt? 600 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 2: I took on my final year of my masters, but 601 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 2: I managed to work through with a job and working 602 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 2: in the holidays to keep dead down. And my parents 603 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 2: were at that level where they didn't really earn enough 604 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 2: for me to qualify that they earned enough for me 605 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 2: not to qualify. 606 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: For anything allowances, yet not. 607 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 2: Enough to help pay off my fees. 608 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: So it was basically a lot of hard work. Flip 609 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: side of that, as we often like to ask, what's 610 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: the most indulgent purchase you've ever made? 611 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 2: I've got a couple quite recently. Actually. One was I 612 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 2: bought a glamping tent one night, which was weird. I 613 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 2: said to my husband, I said, I feel like this 614 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 2: was a drunk purchase. But I wasn't drunk, but I 615 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 2: felt the need to have a clamping tent. 616 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: No, well, that's why you want a glamping. 617 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 2: Team, so I think I was channeling Swiss family Robins. 618 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: So what is as they're all quite big now, but. 619 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is like three bedroom is it? You charge 620 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 2: it out at three hundred. 621 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: Four hundred dollars in with you to the wilderness, that's right. 622 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 2: So that's a bit weird. And then another one. I've 623 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 2: just bought tickets to a concert in England. 624 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: Oh cool, Well that's kind of a holiday and concert. 625 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: But who are you going to see Taylor? Oh you're 626 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: going to see Taylor and Wimberley. Wow, that's amazing. That's cool. 627 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: Well that's a that's a life memory though, isn't it. 628 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:29,959 Speaker 1: So when it comes to spending on I mean when 629 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: people spend on experiences, it's often hard to fault it 630 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: because it is what it is. You've got a limited 631 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: time to enjoy life, and yeah, off we go. Yeah, 632 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: yeah absolutely. We were talking about Loto earlier and Lotto 633 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: winners do quite like to ask, you know, do you 634 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: still buy Loto tickets? Do you still imagine winning Loto? 635 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 2: I don't buy Loto? 636 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: Did you ever? 637 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 2: I don't think I did. I remember taking an oath 638 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 2: to myself saying if I ever won lotto. I would 639 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 2: give it away because I'll never let my success be 640 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 2: a chance, and because I I guess I could retract 641 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 2: the oath. But I've never bought a lotto since somebody, Oh, 642 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 2: there's no point, I'm never going to keep it anyway, 643 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 2: So no, I don't buy lotto. 644 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: And look, one final question. It is kind of a 645 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: big fixing New Zealand kind of question, and it's really, 646 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: if we can make you prime Minister for the day 647 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: or you know, a supreme ruler of New Zealand. Is 648 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: there a policy or something that you would do, that 649 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: you would want to bring in that you think would 650 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: change the game and help New Zealanders New Zealand be 651 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: wealthier in a happier place. 652 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 2: Yes. Many. In fact, I think that the strength of 653 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 2: the economy is the strength of our middle class, and 654 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 2: the closer or the more compact that middle class is, 655 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 2: the better. And all we're seen at the moment is 656 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 2: that people are becoming poorer and that size of the 657 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 2: middle class, like the lower end of the middle class 658 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 2: is really just working poor rather than those who could 659 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 2: be rich. Very dangerous. So we've got to help those 660 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 2: people become successful. I do think they need to introduce 661 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 2: use a stamp duty or a capital gains tax and 662 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 2: have that actually the proceeds of that directed to deliver 663 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 2: particular financial outcomes. So it's going back and not just 664 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 2: getting lost in the middle. 665 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: So that's about incentivizing some good investment for New Zealand. 666 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 2: That's right. And so even if you introduce a stamp 667 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,959 Speaker 2: duty a form of capital gains tax on property, say, 668 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 2: and I don't I personally don't think that the family 669 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 2: home should be removed from these things. But let's say 670 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 2: it was only two percent of the profit. Half of 671 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 2: that goes to the local government so they can actually 672 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,239 Speaker 2: get their infrastructure in place, and half goes to the 673 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 2: federal right and use that money to grow, Like, why 674 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 2: don't we decide that we want to be the leading 675 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 2: medical something for the world, and why don't we build 676 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 2: more hospitals and do things that actually are going to 677 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,479 Speaker 2: help us become more productive. But I probably need more 678 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 2: than a day. 679 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: It sounds well thought through. You have never instidered going 680 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: to politics. No hesitation, Okay, no, look, that's great hand 681 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: I'm going to leave it there, but fantastic to chat 682 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 1: to you. Thanks for being O Money Talks. Thank you, 683 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of Money Talks. If 684 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: you want to get in touch, drop me a line 685 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,359 Speaker 1: Liam dot Dan at zme dot co dot nz and 686 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: you can read more from me at inzidherld dot co 687 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: dot nz. Thanks to my producer Ethan Sills and sound 688 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: engineer Liann McDonald. Follow Money Talks on iHeartRadio or wherever 689 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, with new episodes available every Thursday