1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,720 Speaker 1: We have Deputy Prime Minister David Seymour in for Christopher 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: Luxen with us mourning David. 3 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 2: Good morning. 4 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: Where's Chris? 5 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 2: Oh, he's taken a pretty well earned break. I can't 6 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 2: reveal his exact location, but he is having some time 7 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 2: with Amanda. And the guy works basically fifty out of 8 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 2: fifty two weeks a year, so I think he deserves it. 9 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, first first holiday of the year. 10 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 2: As far as I can tell you, I don't track 11 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 2: him that religiously, but I think you're probably right. 12 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: Is it coincidental that he's timed it with Mike first 13 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: holiday of Mike's. 14 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:32,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well we don't know where Mike is either, so 15 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 2: who knows? 16 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: Could be something going on here? Now? What do you 17 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: think of these minimum sentences? Are you into this? Look? 18 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 2: I think it's really important that the judges actually set 19 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 2: the law, and they do so or interpret the law, sorry, 20 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 2: and they do so independently. I don't want to live 21 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 2: in a society where some strong man starts messing out 22 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 2: the punishments. It took hundreds of years for us to 23 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 2: get away from that, and I don't particularly want to 24 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 2: go back to it. That said, I think it is 25 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 2: important that that independent judiciary is constantly getting feedback from 26 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 2: the rest of the community, and that they're sentencing reflects 27 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 2: community norms. Now, I know there'll be people listening who say, yeah, 28 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 2: all right, I just read about a sentence that doesn't 29 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 2: reflect my idea of a community norm and one way 30 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 2: that you can fix that is for Parliament to start 31 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 2: giving them a bit of feedback of our own through 32 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 2: the democratic process. We say, look, actually, you know you 33 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 2: can't discount more than forty percent. You can't give more 34 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 2: than twenty five percent for a guilty plea. You can't 35 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 2: keep giving discounts for remorse because though sorry, last time, they're. 36 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: Tying their hands, right, you are tying their hands in 37 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: your own way. 38 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 2: We're leaving the ultimate decision up to them, but we're 39 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 2: giving some guidelines on behalf of the community. And that's 40 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 2: about where you want to be. You want the judiciary 41 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 2: to be reflecting community norms and expectations, but giving them 42 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 2: the discretion to work out the individual case. 43 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: Because you think that they actually respond to what I mean, 44 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: They must be aware that people are pretty upset about 45 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: what's going on. At least some people are pretty upset 46 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: about it. Do you think they're responding to it. 47 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I just make the observation that I don't 48 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 2: want to be seen at all as criticizing the judiciary. 49 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 2: But on average, if you become a judge, you're someone 50 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:17,239 Speaker 2: who's had a very successful law career. Chances are you 51 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 2: live in quite a nice suburb, and chances are you're 52 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 2: actually a very intelligent person who's very good at thinking 53 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 2: and reasoning, and oh, well, they did this because they 54 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 2: had a bad time. If you're someone who has just 55 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 2: been bashed up or had your kid or your partner attacked, 56 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 2: or had your car nicked and that you don't have 57 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 2: any money and you need to get to work, then 58 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 2: you're not thinking like that. You're thinking, I want that 59 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 2: person dealt to and I want this crime to stop. 60 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 2: And I think one of the reasons that we've put 61 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 2: in place three strikes, one of the reasons we put 62 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 2: in place these limits on sentence discounts is that the 63 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 2: Parliament is basically giving feedback from people like that to 64 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 2: the judiciary that we need you to make sure you 65 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 2: reflect what the community wants. So I think we've got 66 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 2: just the right balance between a free and independent judiciary 67 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 2: with a bit of feedback on the side. 68 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: Hey, how's the shoplifting fine going to work? Can you 69 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: actually find somebody on the spot without determining their guilt. 70 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's in infringement notice offense. So for example, you 71 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 2: get stung for shoplift, sorry, speeding, then you can choose 72 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 2: to go to court and defend yourself. No one can 73 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 2: be punished without a court hearing and a trial before 74 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 2: a judge or a jury of your peers. That's all 75 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 2: still there. But the default is you just pay the fine, 76 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 2: and this will be exactly the same. The default as 77 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 2: you just pay the fine, and frankly, most people in 78 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 2: this situation will know they're guilty, just like some of 79 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 2: us do with speeding, and you're just going to pay. 80 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 2: It saves a lot of time. Look at it the 81 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 2: other way. If you had to go to court to 82 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 2: get a conviction every time someone was done for speeding, 83 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 2: it'll be like the D five hundred out there. 84 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: So what's going to happen, though, is you're going to 85 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: have somebody who gets nicked for shoplifting. They're simply going 86 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: to say, yes, I did it, cop the fine because 87 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: they know they're not going to pay the fine, so 88 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: they just get that thing. Get that process going faster 89 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: is what we want. 90 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 2: Well, it may be that they are not going to 91 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: pay the fine, but that has further penalties down the line. 92 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 2: So yep, I get it. And people will say all 93 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: the penalties down the line. Well, ultimately, if you don't 94 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 2: pay your fines, you can be put in prison. That's 95 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 2: the ultimate penalty. And I know that there'll be people 96 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 2: who say, oh, well, look, people don't pay fine, so 97 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 2: there's no point. My question is where do we start? 98 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 2: Because right now we've got a society where people work hard, 99 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: pay their bills. You know, they end up taking stuff 100 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 2: out of the trolley because it's so damn expensive at 101 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 2: the supermarket, and then they see someone else just walk 102 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: out scot free. I believe it's important that we start 103 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: putting in some penalties and some computed community norms that 104 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 2: there's actually consequences for this stuff. 105 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: See the Children's commissioner wants a carve out for kids 106 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: so that they don't get this fine. Would you consider that? 107 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 2: Well? I saw that. But frankly, here's the two worlds 108 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 2: that a kid can grow up, And there's one where 109 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 2: you do something wrong, relatively small thing, and you get 110 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 2: corrected and then you go on and live a better life. 111 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: Or there's an New Zealand where children say, look, what 112 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: would happen if I dot dot dot, And a school 113 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: principle said this to me recently. The answer is often 114 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 2: if I dot dot dot, nothing happens. Just about anything 115 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 2: you fill in the dot dot dot, nothing happens. So 116 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 2: I think actually having more consequences earlier on for younger 117 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 2: people is far better than getting away with it. Getting 118 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 2: away with it then all of a sudden, you're eighteen, 119 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 2: you commit a real crime and you see a real 120 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 2: door slam shut. Yeah, that's what we want to avoid. 121 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 2: So I'm all for actually more graduated penalties for younger 122 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 2: people and a society with some norms where actually, if 123 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 2: you do the right thing, you're going to be okay. 124 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 2: Not if you scrimp and save and try your best 125 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 2: and people nick your stuff anyway, it's just demoralizing and 126 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 2: it's infuriating people. 127 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: Would you consider funding or partially funding with GOVI. 128 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 2: I wouldn't. FARMAC might, but I've always been really clear 129 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 2: that the arm's length and it's important that they're independent, 130 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 2: because otherwise you end up in a situation where you're 131 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 2: just having a popularity contest. And I'll just give you 132 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 2: one example of why that matters. I had a woman 133 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 2: in my office years ago, now it was a local MP, 134 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 2: and she said, look, I've got this cancer head and neck. 135 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 2: It's it's disfigured. I've had to have a lot of 136 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 2: my jaw removed. She said, I wish this cancer was 137 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 2: in my breast because you know breast cancer and good 138 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: on the Breast Cancer Foundation, and you know Brook van 139 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 2: Valden and I we put on a pink ribbon breakfast. 140 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 2: They've they've got the profile up, no question. But we 141 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 2: don't want to live in a world where something has 142 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 2: to be high profile and dare I say it's sexy 143 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: to get attention and get funding. Farmac has to make 144 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 2: the decision should they fund we GOVI that's up to them. 145 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 2: But you can see the benefits right. We're spending a 146 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,359 Speaker 2: huge amount on dialysis for people with diabetes. We're spending 147 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 2: a huge amount on orthopedics. People are too heavy. 148 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: On that drink and could this would the NHS considered 149 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: in the UK would bankrupt them if I gave it 150 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: to everybody with a BMI over thirty five. And we're 151 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: looking at a BMI over thirty. 152 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand that, but that's why that's why farmak 153 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 2: have got to do the maths. And it may be 154 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 2: that the maths it up or they don't. That's why 155 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 2: that decision's arm's length. I'm just laying out the case 156 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 2: and where we want to go with FARMAC generally is 157 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 2: to start instead of just managing a fixed budget and 158 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 2: saying no all the time, saying well, okay, if the 159 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 2: government was to spend more on pharmaceuticals, what could we 160 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 2: save elsewhere? Classic example tricafter since that's been funded for 161 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 2: people with cystic fibrosis, lung transplants have fallen off a cliff. Now. 162 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 2: I don't know what a lung transplant costs, but it's 163 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 2: probably the most expensive thing on the health So. 164 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: Stand upfronts that you don't spend heaps later on at Yeah. Absolutely, Okay, 165 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: listen this independent costing unit. Do you think this idea 166 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: is dead? Now? 167 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 2: I do. I don't think it's ever made sense. I mean, 168 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 2: speaking just for a moment for the act Party. You know, 169 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 2: we've put out fully costed alternative budgets every year we've 170 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 2: been in opposition, never had a problem, So there's no 171 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 2: need for this thing. On the other hand, do you 172 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 2: want the bureaucracy, who, by the way, gets stuff wrong 173 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: all the time? You know, just because you get a 174 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 2: job at a government department doesn't mean you're suddenly right 175 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 2: about everything. Do you want them to effectively be the 176 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 2: gatekeepers to the the policies in the election when the 177 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 2: whole point of the election is to hold them account On. 178 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: The first, why would we pay for stuff that you 179 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: guys as political parties are paying for yourself, like you're 180 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: bearing the cost of your independent costings. I don't want 181 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: to pay for it. 182 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 2: I almost want to make a plug for people to 183 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 2: donate to political parties. But absolutely right, it's not just 184 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 2: the one point two million that's been floated. Any government 185 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 2: department would have to drop tools before an election, stop 186 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 2: doing the work for the government that's actually elected, and 187 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: start arguing about some other potential policy that's not a 188 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 2: good use of resource. 189 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: David, how do you rate your chances that you're going 190 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: to be able to convince Winston to partially privatize the ferries. 191 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 2: It won't be me that will persuade them, It will 192 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 2: actually be for school. Reality. Right now, we're spending over 193 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 2: nine billion a year on interest payments that's more than 194 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 2: the top eleven taxpayers in New Zealand. 195 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: Most when has money actually made sense to Winston? Right? 196 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,959 Speaker 1: So who's going to convince them in ken. 197 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 2: I'll tell you what I've learned working with Winston is 198 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 2: that while we may have different views on a lot 199 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 2: of things, when it's time, when the chips are down, 200 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: he does actually look at reality. And in this case, 201 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 2: the question is do we want to spend nine billion 202 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 2: in interest payments every year or do we want to say, look, 203 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 2: you know, owning a faery business that's dead on the 204 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 2: books that we're paying interest on, there's already a private 205 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: faery company that's doing very well. Maybe this isn't something 206 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:25,599 Speaker 2: the government needs to give me Your chances out of 207 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 2: ten out of ten, let me put it, let me 208 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: put it about an eight A well, I tell you 209 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 2: to look forward to look that the challenges that we 210 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 2: face as a government are tough, and we face them 211 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 2: on behalf of all New Zealanders who are facing tough 212 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 2: financial times. Every business, every household, every farm has to 213 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 2: make tough choices and the government is going to have 214 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 2: to make those tough choices as well. 215 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: David thank you very much for coming in really pretty 216 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 1: very much, David Cymore, and for Chris Lux and the 217 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: Prime Minister who's on leave. For more from the Mic 218 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: Asking Breakfast, Listen live to news talks it'd be from 219 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: six am weekdays, or follow the podcas cast on iHeartRadio