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Speaker 1: Jack team and the current government is in talks regarding

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Speaker 1: joining Pillar two of ORCUS, but Labor leader Chris Hopkins

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Speaker 1: says no government he leads will join it. You remember

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Speaker 1: that ORCUS is a military agreement between Australia, the UK

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Speaker 1: and the US. Pillar two is an agreement to share

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Speaker 1: cutting edge military technologies between the member states. So Labor's

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Speaker 1: announcement over the week has left former Labor Defense Minister

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Speaker 1: Andrew a little a little bit confused.

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Speaker 2: Those three partners are partners who get most of our

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Speaker 2: defense technology from back anyway, we'll always get it from them,

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Speaker 2: so not signing up to it, we still have to

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Speaker 2: have a relationship with them.

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Speaker 1: What we're going to David Parker is the Labour Party's

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Speaker 1: Foreign affairs spokesperson and is with us this evening, good evening,

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Speaker 1: good evening game. Why don't you want us to join

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Speaker 1: UCUST Pillar two.

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Speaker 3: Because it's become increasingly clear that it is a China

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Speaker 3: containment strategy from the point of view of the United States,

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Speaker 3: and we don't think we should tie ourselves to that.

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Speaker 3: We should try and plot a middle course between the

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Speaker 3: superpowers rather than holly take the side of one that

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Speaker 3: doesn't mean to say we're unaligned. We do buy our

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Speaker 3: kit from Australia from the US, and it's interoperable with

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Speaker 3: systems in Australia, but we shouldn't be part of ORCUS.

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Speaker 1: Does China need to be contained.

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Speaker 3: Well, we don't perceive that there's any immediate threat of

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Speaker 3: them invading us. There are things that China does that

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Speaker 3: we disagree with, both in our own region, and of

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Speaker 3: course they've got a completely different style of government in

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Speaker 3: a communist one party state. We're a liberal democracy, but

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Speaker 3: there are lots of countries in the world that we

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Speaker 3: don't agree with. We nonetheless try and chart a peaceful

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Speaker 3: course in support of the international rules based order that

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Speaker 3: keeps us all safe.

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Speaker 1: What would we actually get out of Pillar two if

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Speaker 1: we do join it.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's never been completely clear. But one of the

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Speaker 3: positives are not completely clear, because we already buy our

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Speaker 3: kit our of the US, and it's already been made

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Speaker 3: clear by the current US president that even if we

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Speaker 3: weren't in August, they continue to sell us stuff. What

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Speaker 3: we would get out of it in the negative is

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Speaker 3: that we'd be clearly positioning ourselves against China. And although

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Speaker 3: trade issues and economic issues are not the be all

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Speaker 3: and end all. They are relevant and of course Chieda

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Speaker 3: doesn't imposed tariffs on us. The US is talking about

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Speaker 3: doing exactly that thing.

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Speaker 1: How can you rule it out if it's not completely

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Speaker 1: clear what we're actually getting.

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Speaker 3: Well, the current government has already changed the wording around AUGUS.

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Speaker 3: They've said that they now see themselves as a force

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Speaker 3: multiplier for the United States. You will call it. In

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Speaker 3: yester year, the National Party disagreed with us on our

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Speaker 3: stants in Iraq, said we should just follow Australia in

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Speaker 3: the US into that illegal war in Iraq, which has

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Speaker 3: made things worse in the region, not better. We think

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Speaker 3: it's better for us to chart our traditional independent course

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Speaker 3: and take our decisions case by case on what is

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Speaker 3: in the national interest in Zealand.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but wouldn't taking it as in a case by

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Speaker 1: case mode mean you actually waited to see what we

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Speaker 1: were getting out of this explicitly before making that call.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think we've had a number of public meetings

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Speaker 3: that we've hosted in New Zealand from Australian's critical of ucas,

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Speaker 3: from former New Zealand prime ministers, from Pacific leaders expressing

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Speaker 3: their concern about AUCUS. You just can't sit and wait

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Speaker 3: forever until the National Party dumped this upon us without notice.

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Speaker 3: They certainly didn't campaign upon it at the last election.

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Speaker 3: It would be a major chain in New Zealand's foreign

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Speaker 3: policy and we don't think it should happen.

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Speaker 1: So if the National Party or if the current government

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Speaker 1: signs up to UCAS before the next election, will you

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Speaker 1: pull out of the deal?

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Speaker 3: Yes, we've said we would, but in terms of the

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Speaker 3: practicality of that, very little will have happened by it.

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Speaker 3: Then in the Pillar one submarines that are nuclear power

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Speaker 3: that Australia is purchasing, and that's controversial in Australia, they

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Speaker 3: don't arrive until the twenty thirties, so you know next

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Speaker 3: elections what twenty twenty seven, sorry, twenty twenty six, so

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Speaker 3: you know it's by then. I don't think there will

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Speaker 3: be anything substantial that will have happened under August Pillow

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Speaker 3: Two's right, So.

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Speaker 1: You definitely have put you will definitely withdraw New Zealand

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Speaker 1: from that agreement.

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Speaker 3: That's right. Chris Hopkins has made that clear. We not

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Speaker 3: only won't join, we don't support New Zealand being in it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, while we got you is your wealth text

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Speaker 1: do you think dead? Why did it get voted down

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Speaker 1: at the weekend?

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Speaker 3: Well, the Labor Party voted to continue work on two

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Speaker 3: streams of work. One was around a capital gains tax

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Speaker 3: and one was a wealth tax. So neither have been

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Speaker 3: fully committed to, but neither a did.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But what did they also vote when it came to

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Speaker 1: progressing the wealth tax over the weekend? They voted it down?

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Speaker 3: Right? They No, They voted on them exactly the same

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Speaker 3: manner as there was a vote on the capital gains tax.

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Speaker 3: There were two identical agreements put out. Both were voted

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Speaker 3: down in favor of the Policy Council continued work for

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Speaker 3: and respected both options.

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Speaker 1: Do you expect the Policy Council to back the CDT

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Speaker 1: ahead of a wealth tax?

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Speaker 3: Well, look, I'm not going to speculate that today. I'm

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Speaker 3: just making clear the process from here.

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Speaker 1: Would you support a stamp duty and principle, what are

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Speaker 1: the downsides and upsides to a stamp duty?

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Speaker 3: The position of the readon that that was passed at

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Speaker 3: the party was to look at the two options that

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Speaker 3: we've already spoken of and take other things off their GUNA.

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Speaker 1: Thanks good Tom, we appreciate it. That is Daily Parker

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Speaker 1: thanks with us this evening. For more from Hither Duplessy

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Speaker 1: Allen Drive, listen live to news talks it'd be from

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Speaker 1: four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio