WEBVTT - The pressure grows: Will NZ recognise Palestine this week?

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<v Speaker 1>Kilda.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

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<v Speaker 2>daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. The clock

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<v Speaker 2>is ticking for New Zealand to join a throng of

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<v Speaker 2>other countries recognizing the state of Palestine. Britain, Canada and

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<v Speaker 2>Australia have all formally recognized it, with the likes of Portugal,

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<v Speaker 2>France and several others to follow at the United Nations

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<v Speaker 2>General Assembly this week. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has

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<v Speaker 2>condemned their moves, saying a Palestinian state would be a

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<v Speaker 2>huge reward to terrorism and will not happen. So what's

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<v Speaker 2>holding up our government and how might the war in

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<v Speaker 2>Gaza unfold?

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<v Speaker 3>Today?

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<v Speaker 2>On the front Page, University of Waikato International law professor

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<v Speaker 2>Alexander Gillespie is with us to explain what recognition means

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<v Speaker 2>and how it's not as black and white as we

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<v Speaker 2>might think. So our Prime Minister Christopher Laxon has said

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<v Speaker 2>a decision will be made before Winston Peters addresses the

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<v Speaker 2>UN in New York. Cabinet will finalize its decision later

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<v Speaker 2>this week. Why do you think it's taking us so long?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, from what I understand mister Peters is waiting untill

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<v Speaker 1>he's had all the latest and most up to date information.

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<v Speaker 1>The challenge is that well two things. One that the

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<v Speaker 1>information is already out there. We know who supports the

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<v Speaker 1>idea and we know who doesn't support the idea. And

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<v Speaker 1>then the second problem is that those who support the

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<v Speaker 1>idea are our close friends like Australia, Canada and Britain,

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<v Speaker 1>and so not walking forward at exactly the same time

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<v Speaker 1>and sync with them does raise an eyebrow.

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<v Speaker 2>What are the legal complexities around recognizing the state of Palestine.

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<v Speaker 1>You've got to make sure that you've got a population,

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<v Speaker 1>which clearly is there. There is a Palestinian population. You've

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<v Speaker 1>got to make sure that there's a territory, and you

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<v Speaker 1>can see the territory in the West Bank and in Gaza.

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<v Speaker 1>You have to make sure that they have a capacity

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<v Speaker 1>to enter into international agreements, which they've already done. Where

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<v Speaker 1>it gets difficult is the fourth consideration, which is their

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<v Speaker 1>ability to have a government. And the problem you've got

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<v Speaker 1>there is that Hamas is a type of government, but

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<v Speaker 1>it is completely unpalatable because of its terrorism and its

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<v Speaker 1>associated atrocities. So it legally there is a challenge, and

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<v Speaker 1>so it means that this will be a political decision,

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<v Speaker 1>not just a legal one, because we have to make

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<v Speaker 1>sure that Hamas in no way is part of the

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<v Speaker 1>next government of Palestine.

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<v Speaker 2>Well what other options are there?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you can have the Palestinian Authority, which holds some

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<v Speaker 1>kind of power in the West Bank, but the dispute

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<v Speaker 1>between the West Bank and Gaza is long standing. And

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<v Speaker 1>so ideally what you would do is you would put

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<v Speaker 1>the issue to the population, the Palestinian population, and let

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<v Speaker 1>them vote for a new government in a democratic process,

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<v Speaker 1>but critically one that recognizes the state of Israel and

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<v Speaker 1>also promises to protect its security. And so even though

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<v Speaker 1>we can legally recognize Palestine, there are still some very

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<v Speaker 1>difficult questions ahead in.

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<v Speaker 2>Terms of imagine if every other country in the world

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<v Speaker 2>recognizes the Palestinian state, can nettnya who just flat out

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<v Speaker 2>refuse to do everything.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, legally he shouldn't, and politically it will be difficult

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<v Speaker 1>because you are The way I see what's going on

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<v Speaker 1>right now is we're at a turning point, and it's

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<v Speaker 1>taken us nearly eight decades to get to this point.

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<v Speaker 1>We've always wanted to have a large peace conference, whereby

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<v Speaker 1>you would peacefully and sustainably settle the future and everyone

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<v Speaker 1>would agree to the pathway going forward. But this will

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<v Speaker 1>be a contested pathway, and so Israel in its current

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<v Speaker 1>regime is likely to reject this recognition. And it's not

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<v Speaker 1>just with regards to the principle. It's also with regards

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<v Speaker 1>to the occupation of the legal occupation of Palestinian territory,

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<v Speaker 1>the question of what to do with all the refugees

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<v Speaker 1>it would now have the right to return to Palestine,

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<v Speaker 1>of which is over five million people, and the question

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<v Speaker 1>of Jerusalem, and so Israel is liking to object on

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<v Speaker 1>all of these grounds, irrespective of the legal technicalities. This

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<v Speaker 1>means though that as each country deals with bilaterally with Palestine,

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<v Speaker 1>how they respond will be different when the past, and

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<v Speaker 1>so some countries will find it easier if they recognize

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<v Speaker 1>Palestine to move towards considerations like sanctions or other international

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<v Speaker 1>condemnations like boycotts.

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<v Speaker 2>Of the country towards Israel.

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<v Speaker 1>Towards Israel, that's right, and so there's a risk here

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<v Speaker 1>for Israel that it could become a pariah state in

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<v Speaker 1>the way that South Africa became a pariah state with

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<v Speaker 1>its apartheid regime.

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<v Speaker 2>A United Nations Commission of Inquiry has recently said that

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<v Speaker 2>Israel has committed genocide against Palestinians in Gaza. A report

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<v Speaker 2>said there are reasonable grounds to conclude that four of

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<v Speaker 2>the five genocide or acts defined under international law have

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<v Speaker 2>been carried out since the start of the war with

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<v Speaker 2>her mass in twenty twenty three. Will this designation actually

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<v Speaker 2>lead to anything though?

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<v Speaker 1>This is important work and it's all pointing in the

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<v Speaker 1>same direction. But it's likely that the genocide is occurring.

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<v Speaker 1>But the body that will make that determination as the

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<v Speaker 1>International Court of Justice that will overset the Genocide Convention.

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<v Speaker 1>But whether a genocide is or is not occurring right now,

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<v Speaker 1>and it looks like it is occurring and it is unfolding,

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<v Speaker 1>You've still got the problem of starvation, potentially ethnic cleansing,

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<v Speaker 1>and extreme humanitarian concerns that go right through and so

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<v Speaker 1>we need to be pushing for a peaceful solution. But

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<v Speaker 1>whether this will change Israel's perspective is very questionable in

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<v Speaker 1>its current form. But it will make it easier for

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<v Speaker 1>other countries to respond because that means that Palestine as

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<v Speaker 1>a state actually exists. It's something which is real and

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<v Speaker 1>it's tangible and we can then have diplomatic relations with

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<v Speaker 1>that country.

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<v Speaker 2>Why is the term genocide? I mean, some countries decide

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<v Speaker 2>not to use the term on purpose, don't they.

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<v Speaker 1>It is a difficult term because genocide is the worst

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<v Speaker 1>of all crimes that humans can do to other humans.

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<v Speaker 1>We shouldn't actually ethically rank different crimes, but one involves

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<v Speaker 1>a scale and an intention, which is unlike all other crimes,

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<v Speaker 1>where you intend to destroy and whole or in part

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<v Speaker 1>a different ethnic group. It's as bad as humanity can get.

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<v Speaker 2>At the international court level, just three cases have been

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<v Speaker 2>deemed to be a genocide technically. So that's the Cambodian

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<v Speaker 2>Khmer Rouge regime, and that's the slaughterer of Carmen and

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<v Speaker 2>Vietnamese during the nineteen seventies, the nineteen ninety four mass

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<v Speaker 2>killing of two season Rwanda and nineteen ninety five Srey

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<v Speaker 2>brenitza massacre of some eight thousand Muslim men and boys

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<v Speaker 2>in Bosnia. How do you prove a genocide and does

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<v Speaker 2>the International Court of Justice actually have any ability to

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<v Speaker 2>prosecute The.

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<v Speaker 1>Proof is an intention. It's not something that you should

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<v Speaker 1>be able to do with recklessness or negligence, and so

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<v Speaker 1>you will need documentation or a clear goal to commit

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<v Speaker 1>genocidal acts. The biggest penalty of it will be in

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<v Speaker 1>the public concern and outrage when this is found. But

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<v Speaker 1>countries should be concerned and outraged whether a legal definition

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<v Speaker 1>of genocide is crossed or not, because the people are

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<v Speaker 1>clearly suffering in a humanitarian catastrophe. The genocide label changes

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<v Speaker 1>the way we understand the conflict and they understand the crimes.

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<v Speaker 1>But at base it's still innocent civilian to a pain,

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<v Speaker 1>a disproportionate, in humane price.

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<v Speaker 3>When some peters will reveal the government decision at the

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<v Speaker 3>end of the week, we've had preliminary discussions. As I've said,

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<v Speaker 3>we've got ongoing monitoring of what's happening in the Middle

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<v Speaker 3>East over the course of this week.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's a blow for your liking, though, Prime Minister.

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<v Speaker 3>No, not at all. It's not a race at all.

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<v Speaker 3>Some of our friends have decided to recognize now others

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<v Speaker 3>have decided not to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>In terms of war crimes. I'm aware that it isn't

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<v Speaker 2>Natna who there's a warrant out for his arrest through.

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<v Speaker 1>The International Criminal Court, and so the International Criminal Court

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<v Speaker 1>will hear the finding of the International Court of Justice

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<v Speaker 1>and it will influence the charges that they bring against him.

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<v Speaker 1>But it also means that if netna Who is then

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<v Speaker 1>land in a country which is a party to the

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<v Speaker 1>International Criminal Court, they should detain them and take them

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<v Speaker 1>to justice and behague. But like many people who are

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<v Speaker 1>accused of international crimes, like mister Putin as well of Russia,

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<v Speaker 1>he just had to be very careful what countries he

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<v Speaker 1>will visit.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, So there's a low likelihood of us seeing Benjamin

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<v Speaker 2>Natnya Who or Vladimir Putin in front of a judge

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<v Speaker 2>in a courtroom answering for war crimes.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, there's a very low likelihood, and it's made even

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<v Speaker 1>lower because at the moment, mister Trump is trying to

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<v Speaker 1>undermine the International Criminal Court for doing such steps. But

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<v Speaker 1>the International Criminal Court is just trying to say, these

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<v Speaker 1>are existing standards and they apply to all people in

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<v Speaker 1>all places.

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<v Speaker 2>In terms of what we do next, what are the

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<v Speaker 2>legal and diplomatic implications for a country like New Zealand

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<v Speaker 2>if it does choose to recognize Palestine, And what do

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<v Speaker 2>you reckon the likelihood is of us not recognizing the

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<v Speaker 2>statehood of Palestine.

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<v Speaker 1>I would be exceptionally surprised if we do not follow

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<v Speaker 1>suit with Canada, Britain and Australia. That would be a

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<v Speaker 1>very unusual step. Even the timing so far and the

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<v Speaker 1>fact that we're not going forward in the same motion

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<v Speaker 1>of the scrum is unusual. But I'm sure mister Peters

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<v Speaker 1>has his reasons for this. In terms of recognition, these

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<v Speaker 1>will be done by laterally. In an ideal world, it

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<v Speaker 1>would be done multilaterally, where a country would go forward

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<v Speaker 1>and be accepted by the United Nations in full. But

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<v Speaker 1>for that to occur, they have to get the nod

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<v Speaker 1>of the Security Council, and the United States on the

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<v Speaker 1>Security Council will not accept Palestine into the United Nations

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<v Speaker 1>proper as a body, which means that each country like

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<v Speaker 1>New Zealand would then have to have diplomatic relations with

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<v Speaker 1>Palestine and make treaties with it on a one on

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<v Speaker 1>one basis rather than go through the multilateral UN basis.

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<v Speaker 2>What could be the reasons why we're lagging behind.

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<v Speaker 1>You'll have to ask mister Peters that that it's all conjecture.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, officially, it's about trying to understand the situation

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<v Speaker 1>to see if any more up to date information comes

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<v Speaker 1>to hand. But we're very clear right now that America

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<v Speaker 1>will oppose the motion. But we know our friends who

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<v Speaker 1>are going and we can our support should be based

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<v Speaker 1>either on the ethics and the law and the politics,

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<v Speaker 1>all of which are justifiable, or simply by watching what

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<v Speaker 1>our friends in close allies doing and staying close to them.

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<v Speaker 1>And both arguments are pushing into the same direction, which

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<v Speaker 1>is we should recognize Palestine. This is not an answer

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<v Speaker 1>that will be the end of the conflict. This has

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<v Speaker 1>been going on for nearly eight decades, and the only

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<v Speaker 1>certainty we've got is that by waiting for an international

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<v Speaker 1>peace conference where we recognize Palestine is not working and

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<v Speaker 1>the situation is actually getting worse. There's no guarantee that

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<v Speaker 1>recognizing Palestine will bring peace. The only certainty we have

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<v Speaker 1>right now is that the last eight decades have failed

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<v Speaker 1>and the situation is worsening.

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<v Speaker 2>Could we be talking about this in another eight decades time.

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<v Speaker 1>I think these this is not going to be the

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<v Speaker 1>end of the conversations, and I think it could take

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<v Speaker 1>many many years from here. But this is a historic

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<v Speaker 1>turning point because countries which are previously waited for the

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<v Speaker 1>international peace to occur. Are now saying we can wait

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<v Speaker 1>no longer. We've got to try something different because the

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<v Speaker 1>existing pathway has clearly failed.

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<v Speaker 2>What responsibility to smallest like New Zealand have in setting

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<v Speaker 2>precedents on issues like genocide recognition or Palestinian statehood.

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<v Speaker 1>Our voice is important. People value New Zealand as independent

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<v Speaker 1>and fair minded, and people will be looking to what

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<v Speaker 1>we have to say. I imagine that mister Peters is

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<v Speaker 1>going to attract even more international media attention by the

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<v Speaker 1>fact that we're not part of the group speaking at

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<v Speaker 1>the same time, and it does raise an eyebrow, But

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<v Speaker 1>I expect that we will follow the trend and the

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<v Speaker 1>decisions and recommendations of our close minded friends. It's a

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<v Speaker 1>very difficult issue and it's a question of law, it's

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<v Speaker 1>a question of politics, ethics and history, and just by

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<v Speaker 1>getting this next step won't solve the problem, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>showing that we're to fork in the road and we're

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<v Speaker 1>now going to take a different approach, and hopefully this

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<v Speaker 1>approach will bring better results than what's happened for the last

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<v Speaker 1>few decades.

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<v Speaker 2>Does any of this matter though, if Natanya who will

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<v Speaker 2>is refusing to believe it.

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<v Speaker 1>The risk for Israel is that the more states that

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<v Speaker 1>recognize Palestine will be linked to their recognition to take

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<v Speaker 1>stronger actions in terms of sanctions or coercion, and so

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<v Speaker 1>it could end up that Israel could end up like

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<v Speaker 1>a pariah state like South Africa and it's apartheid lead error.

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<v Speaker 1>And so you may start to see boycotts which are

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<v Speaker 1>run through the international level, like at the International Olympic Committee,

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<v Speaker 1>where people start to see Israel should not be allowed

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<v Speaker 1>to compete at the Olympics, and these kind of actions

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<v Speaker 1>all put pressure on Israel to try to change its pathway.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm hopeful in time that Israel will and that we

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<v Speaker 1>can actually have a peaceful resolution of this dispute, but

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<v Speaker 1>before then you may see additional pressure placed upon them,

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<v Speaker 1>and that will be easier to do if Palestine is

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<v Speaker 1>recognized as a state with individual standing.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for joining us out.

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<v Speaker 1>You're welcome, Chelsea.

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<v Speaker 2>That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You

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<v Speaker 2>can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:07.800
<v Speaker 2>at enzidherld dot co dot enz. The Front Page is

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<v Speaker 2>produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also

0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:15.600
<v Speaker 2>our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the front page

0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:19.200
<v Speaker 2>on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune

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<v Speaker 2>in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.