1
00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:05,640
Speaker 1: Kilda.

2
00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,920
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

3
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:16,520
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. The clock

4
00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,239
Speaker 2: is ticking for New Zealand to join a throng of

5
00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:25,440
Speaker 2: other countries recognizing the state of Palestine. Britain, Canada and

6
00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:29,720
Speaker 2: Australia have all formally recognized it, with the likes of Portugal,

7
00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,280
Speaker 2: France and several others to follow at the United Nations

8
00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:38,400
Speaker 2: General Assembly this week. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has

9
00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,479
Speaker 2: condemned their moves, saying a Palestinian state would be a

10
00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:48,000
Speaker 2: huge reward to terrorism and will not happen. So what's

11
00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,640
Speaker 2: holding up our government and how might the war in

12
00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:53,080
Speaker 2: Gaza unfold?

13
00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:54,000
Speaker 3: Today?

14
00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,880
Speaker 2: On the front Page, University of Waikato International law professor

15
00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:02,040
Speaker 2: Alexander Gillespie is with us to explain what recognition means

16
00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:04,960
Speaker 2: and how it's not as black and white as we

17
00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:14,039
Speaker 2: might think. So our Prime Minister Christopher Laxon has said

18
00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:18,160
Speaker 2: a decision will be made before Winston Peters addresses the

19
00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,920
Speaker 2: UN in New York. Cabinet will finalize its decision later

20
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,000
Speaker 2: this week. Why do you think it's taking us so long?

21
00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,320
Speaker 1: Well, from what I understand mister Peters is waiting untill

22
00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,000
Speaker 1: he's had all the latest and most up to date information.

23
00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,600
Speaker 1: The challenge is that well two things. One that the

24
00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,280
Speaker 1: information is already out there. We know who supports the

25
00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,920
Speaker 1: idea and we know who doesn't support the idea. And

26
00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:42,920
Speaker 1: then the second problem is that those who support the

27
00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,280
Speaker 1: idea are our close friends like Australia, Canada and Britain,

28
00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:49,400
Speaker 1: and so not walking forward at exactly the same time

29
00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:51,400
Speaker 1: and sync with them does raise an eyebrow.

30
00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,880
Speaker 2: What are the legal complexities around recognizing the state of Palestine.

31
00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,320
Speaker 1: You've got to make sure that you've got a population,

32
00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,600
Speaker 1: which clearly is there. There is a Palestinian population. You've

33
00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:05,440
Speaker 1: got to make sure that there's a territory, and you

34
00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:07,840
Speaker 1: can see the territory in the West Bank and in Gaza.

35
00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:10,520
Speaker 1: You have to make sure that they have a capacity

36
00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,040
Speaker 1: to enter into international agreements, which they've already done. Where

37
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,920
Speaker 1: it gets difficult is the fourth consideration, which is their

38
00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,799
Speaker 1: ability to have a government. And the problem you've got

39
00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,880
Speaker 1: there is that Hamas is a type of government, but

40
00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,440
Speaker 1: it is completely unpalatable because of its terrorism and its

41
00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:31,800
Speaker 1: associated atrocities. So it legally there is a challenge, and

42
00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:33,919
Speaker 1: so it means that this will be a political decision,

43
00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,919
Speaker 1: not just a legal one, because we have to make

44
00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,520
Speaker 1: sure that Hamas in no way is part of the

45
00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,000
Speaker 1: next government of Palestine.

46
00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:42,680
Speaker 2: Well what other options are there?

47
00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,560
Speaker 1: Well, you can have the Palestinian Authority, which holds some

48
00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,600
Speaker 1: kind of power in the West Bank, but the dispute

49
00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,440
Speaker 1: between the West Bank and Gaza is long standing. And

50
00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:54,560
Speaker 1: so ideally what you would do is you would put

51
00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,880
Speaker 1: the issue to the population, the Palestinian population, and let

52
00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:02,280
Speaker 1: them vote for a new government in a democratic process,

53
00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,720
Speaker 1: but critically one that recognizes the state of Israel and

54
00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,880
Speaker 1: also promises to protect its security. And so even though

55
00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,440
Speaker 1: we can legally recognize Palestine, there are still some very

56
00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:14,160
Speaker 1: difficult questions ahead in.

57
00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,639
Speaker 2: Terms of imagine if every other country in the world

58
00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:21,760
Speaker 2: recognizes the Palestinian state, can nettnya who just flat out

59
00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:22,960
Speaker 2: refuse to do everything.

60
00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:28,440
Speaker 1: Yes, legally he shouldn't, and politically it will be difficult

61
00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,640
Speaker 1: because you are The way I see what's going on

62
00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,040
Speaker 1: right now is we're at a turning point, and it's

63
00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,160
Speaker 1: taken us nearly eight decades to get to this point.

64
00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,040
Speaker 1: We've always wanted to have a large peace conference, whereby

65
00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:43,360
Speaker 1: you would peacefully and sustainably settle the future and everyone

66
00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,800
Speaker 1: would agree to the pathway going forward. But this will

67
00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,720
Speaker 1: be a contested pathway, and so Israel in its current

68
00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:55,400
Speaker 1: regime is likely to reject this recognition. And it's not

69
00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,800
Speaker 1: just with regards to the principle. It's also with regards

70
00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,080
Speaker 1: to the occupation of the legal occupation of Palestinian territory,

71
00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,960
Speaker 1: the question of what to do with all the refugees

72
00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,760
Speaker 1: it would now have the right to return to Palestine,

73
00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,680
Speaker 1: of which is over five million people, and the question

74
00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,920
Speaker 1: of Jerusalem, and so Israel is liking to object on

75
00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,719
Speaker 1: all of these grounds, irrespective of the legal technicalities. This

76
00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,720
Speaker 1: means though that as each country deals with bilaterally with Palestine,

77
00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,520
Speaker 1: how they respond will be different when the past, and

78
00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,000
Speaker 1: so some countries will find it easier if they recognize

79
00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:31,680
Speaker 1: Palestine to move towards considerations like sanctions or other international

80
00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:33,600
Speaker 1: condemnations like boycotts.

81
00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,160
Speaker 2: Of the country towards Israel.

82
00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,040
Speaker 1: Towards Israel, that's right, and so there's a risk here

83
00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,640
Speaker 1: for Israel that it could become a pariah state in

84
00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:43,760
Speaker 1: the way that South Africa became a pariah state with

85
00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:44,960
Speaker 1: its apartheid regime.

86
00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,720
Speaker 2: A United Nations Commission of Inquiry has recently said that

87
00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:53,480
Speaker 2: Israel has committed genocide against Palestinians in Gaza. A report

88
00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,240
Speaker 2: said there are reasonable grounds to conclude that four of

89
00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:01,440
Speaker 2: the five genocide or acts defined under international law have

90
00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,080
Speaker 2: been carried out since the start of the war with

91
00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:09,480
Speaker 2: her mass in twenty twenty three. Will this designation actually

92
00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:10,960
Speaker 2: lead to anything though?

93
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,039
Speaker 1: This is important work and it's all pointing in the

94
00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,520
Speaker 1: same direction. But it's likely that the genocide is occurring.

95
00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,760
Speaker 1: But the body that will make that determination as the

96
00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,000
Speaker 1: International Court of Justice that will overset the Genocide Convention.

97
00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,159
Speaker 1: But whether a genocide is or is not occurring right now,

98
00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,920
Speaker 1: and it looks like it is occurring and it is unfolding,

99
00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,160
Speaker 1: You've still got the problem of starvation, potentially ethnic cleansing,

100
00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:40,120
Speaker 1: and extreme humanitarian concerns that go right through and so

101
00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,960
Speaker 1: we need to be pushing for a peaceful solution. But

102
00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:48,320
Speaker 1: whether this will change Israel's perspective is very questionable in

103
00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,960
Speaker 1: its current form. But it will make it easier for

104
00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,840
Speaker 1: other countries to respond because that means that Palestine as

105
00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,200
Speaker 1: a state actually exists. It's something which is real and

106
00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,520
Speaker 1: it's tangible and we can then have diplomatic relations with

107
00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:00,280
Speaker 1: that country.

108
00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:05,200
Speaker 2: Why is the term genocide? I mean, some countries decide

109
00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,479
Speaker 2: not to use the term on purpose, don't they.

110
00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:14,159
Speaker 1: It is a difficult term because genocide is the worst

111
00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,760
Speaker 1: of all crimes that humans can do to other humans.

112
00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,960
Speaker 1: We shouldn't actually ethically rank different crimes, but one involves

113
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,040
Speaker 1: a scale and an intention, which is unlike all other crimes,

114
00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,560
Speaker 1: where you intend to destroy and whole or in part

115
00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,200
Speaker 1: a different ethnic group. It's as bad as humanity can get.

116
00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:36,039
Speaker 2: At the international court level, just three cases have been

117
00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:40,560
Speaker 2: deemed to be a genocide technically. So that's the Cambodian

118
00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,880
Speaker 2: Khmer Rouge regime, and that's the slaughterer of Carmen and

119
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:49,360
Speaker 2: Vietnamese during the nineteen seventies, the nineteen ninety four mass

120
00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:54,200
Speaker 2: killing of two season Rwanda and nineteen ninety five Srey

121
00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,120
Speaker 2: brenitza massacre of some eight thousand Muslim men and boys

122
00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:02,760
Speaker 2: in Bosnia. How do you prove a genocide and does

123
00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,880
Speaker 2: the International Court of Justice actually have any ability to

124
00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:07,359
Speaker 2: prosecute The.

125
00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:12,400
Speaker 1: Proof is an intention. It's not something that you should

126
00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,560
Speaker 1: be able to do with recklessness or negligence, and so

127
00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:20,480
Speaker 1: you will need documentation or a clear goal to commit

128
00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:25,320
Speaker 1: genocidal acts. The biggest penalty of it will be in

129
00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,280
Speaker 1: the public concern and outrage when this is found. But

130
00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,800
Speaker 1: countries should be concerned and outraged whether a legal definition

131
00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,760
Speaker 1: of genocide is crossed or not, because the people are

132
00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:41,200
Speaker 1: clearly suffering in a humanitarian catastrophe. The genocide label changes

133
00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,320
Speaker 1: the way we understand the conflict and they understand the crimes.

134
00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,800
Speaker 1: But at base it's still innocent civilian to a pain,

135
00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,160
Speaker 1: a disproportionate, in humane price.

136
00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,880
Speaker 3: When some peters will reveal the government decision at the

137
00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,000
Speaker 3: end of the week, we've had preliminary discussions. As I've said,

138
00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:04,920
Speaker 3: we've got ongoing monitoring of what's happening in the Middle

139
00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:06,120
Speaker 3: East over the course of this week.

140
00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,960
Speaker 2: And it's a blow for your liking, though, Prime Minister.

141
00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:10,840
Speaker 3: No, not at all. It's not a race at all.

142
00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,080
Speaker 3: Some of our friends have decided to recognize now others

143
00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:15,240
Speaker 3: have decided not to do that.

144
00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:22,080
Speaker 2: In terms of war crimes. I'm aware that it isn't

145
00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,760
Speaker 2: Natna who there's a warrant out for his arrest through.

146
00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,200
Speaker 1: The International Criminal Court, and so the International Criminal Court

147
00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,000
Speaker 1: will hear the finding of the International Court of Justice

148
00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,640
Speaker 1: and it will influence the charges that they bring against him.

149
00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,560
Speaker 1: But it also means that if netna Who is then

150
00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:42,960
Speaker 1: land in a country which is a party to the

151
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,960
Speaker 1: International Criminal Court, they should detain them and take them

152
00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,679
Speaker 1: to justice and behague. But like many people who are

153
00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,959
Speaker 1: accused of international crimes, like mister Putin as well of Russia,

154
00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:53,679
Speaker 1: he just had to be very careful what countries he

155
00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:54,120
Speaker 1: will visit.

156
00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,760
Speaker 2: Right, So there's a low likelihood of us seeing Benjamin

157
00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,040
Speaker 2: Natnya Who or Vladimir Putin in front of a judge

158
00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,120
Speaker 2: in a courtroom answering for war crimes.

159
00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,000
Speaker 1: Yes, there's a very low likelihood, and it's made even

160
00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,600
Speaker 1: lower because at the moment, mister Trump is trying to

161
00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:14,520
Speaker 1: undermine the International Criminal Court for doing such steps. But

162
00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,240
Speaker 1: the International Criminal Court is just trying to say, these

163
00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,000
Speaker 1: are existing standards and they apply to all people in

164
00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:20,680
Speaker 1: all places.

165
00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:25,079
Speaker 2: In terms of what we do next, what are the

166
00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:29,600
Speaker 2: legal and diplomatic implications for a country like New Zealand

167
00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,120
Speaker 2: if it does choose to recognize Palestine, And what do

168
00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,439
Speaker 2: you reckon the likelihood is of us not recognizing the

169
00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:38,760
Speaker 2: statehood of Palestine.

170
00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,920
Speaker 1: I would be exceptionally surprised if we do not follow

171
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,240
Speaker 1: suit with Canada, Britain and Australia. That would be a

172
00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,599
Speaker 1: very unusual step. Even the timing so far and the

173
00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:50,839
Speaker 1: fact that we're not going forward in the same motion

174
00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:55,440
Speaker 1: of the scrum is unusual. But I'm sure mister Peters

175
00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,280
Speaker 1: has his reasons for this. In terms of recognition, these

176
00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,400
Speaker 1: will be done by laterally. In an ideal world, it

177
00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,280
Speaker 1: would be done multilaterally, where a country would go forward

178
00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,920
Speaker 1: and be accepted by the United Nations in full. But

179
00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,040
Speaker 1: for that to occur, they have to get the nod

180
00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,000
Speaker 1: of the Security Council, and the United States on the

181
00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,520
Speaker 1: Security Council will not accept Palestine into the United Nations

182
00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,040
Speaker 1: proper as a body, which means that each country like

183
00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:23,320
Speaker 1: New Zealand would then have to have diplomatic relations with

184
00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,120
Speaker 1: Palestine and make treaties with it on a one on

185
00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,319
Speaker 1: one basis rather than go through the multilateral UN basis.

186
00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,480
Speaker 2: What could be the reasons why we're lagging behind.

187
00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:37,760
Speaker 1: You'll have to ask mister Peters that that it's all conjecture.

188
00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,920
Speaker 1: I mean, officially, it's about trying to understand the situation

189
00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,560
Speaker 1: to see if any more up to date information comes

190
00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,840
Speaker 1: to hand. But we're very clear right now that America

191
00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,800
Speaker 1: will oppose the motion. But we know our friends who

192
00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,360
Speaker 1: are going and we can our support should be based

193
00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,880
Speaker 1: either on the ethics and the law and the politics,

194
00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,800
Speaker 1: all of which are justifiable, or simply by watching what

195
00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,360
Speaker 1: our friends in close allies doing and staying close to them.

196
00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,280
Speaker 1: And both arguments are pushing into the same direction, which

197
00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:10,360
Speaker 1: is we should recognize Palestine. This is not an answer

198
00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,400
Speaker 1: that will be the end of the conflict. This has

199
00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,640
Speaker 1: been going on for nearly eight decades, and the only

200
00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,319
Speaker 1: certainty we've got is that by waiting for an international

201
00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,880
Speaker 1: peace conference where we recognize Palestine is not working and

202
00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,440
Speaker 1: the situation is actually getting worse. There's no guarantee that

203
00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,760
Speaker 1: recognizing Palestine will bring peace. The only certainty we have

204
00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,680
Speaker 1: right now is that the last eight decades have failed

205
00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:33,720
Speaker 1: and the situation is worsening.

206
00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,760
Speaker 2: Could we be talking about this in another eight decades time.

207
00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,760
Speaker 1: I think these this is not going to be the

208
00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,160
Speaker 1: end of the conversations, and I think it could take

209
00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,319
Speaker 1: many many years from here. But this is a historic

210
00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,880
Speaker 1: turning point because countries which are previously waited for the

211
00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:52,800
Speaker 1: international peace to occur. Are now saying we can wait

212
00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,760
Speaker 1: no longer. We've got to try something different because the

213
00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:57,640
Speaker 1: existing pathway has clearly failed.

214
00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:02,600
Speaker 2: What responsibility to smallest like New Zealand have in setting

215
00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:07,119
Speaker 2: precedents on issues like genocide recognition or Palestinian statehood.

216
00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,839
Speaker 1: Our voice is important. People value New Zealand as independent

217
00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,000
Speaker 1: and fair minded, and people will be looking to what

218
00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,280
Speaker 1: we have to say. I imagine that mister Peters is

219
00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,840
Speaker 1: going to attract even more international media attention by the

220
00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,080
Speaker 1: fact that we're not part of the group speaking at

221
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,520
Speaker 1: the same time, and it does raise an eyebrow, But

222
00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,520
Speaker 1: I expect that we will follow the trend and the

223
00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:35,360
Speaker 1: decisions and recommendations of our close minded friends. It's a

224
00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:40,120
Speaker 1: very difficult issue and it's a question of law, it's

225
00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:44,800
Speaker 1: a question of politics, ethics and history, and just by

226
00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,400
Speaker 1: getting this next step won't solve the problem, but it's

227
00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,280
Speaker 1: showing that we're to fork in the road and we're

228
00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,080
Speaker 1: now going to take a different approach, and hopefully this

229
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,559
Speaker 1: approach will bring better results than what's happened for the last

230
00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:56,200
Speaker 1: few decades.

231
00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,160
Speaker 2: Does any of this matter though, if Natanya who will

232
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,400
Speaker 2: is refusing to believe it.

233
00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,360
Speaker 1: The risk for Israel is that the more states that

234
00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,800
Speaker 1: recognize Palestine will be linked to their recognition to take

235
00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:15,560
Speaker 1: stronger actions in terms of sanctions or coercion, and so

236
00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:17,959
Speaker 1: it could end up that Israel could end up like

237
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,640
Speaker 1: a pariah state like South Africa and it's apartheid lead error.

238
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,560
Speaker 1: And so you may start to see boycotts which are

239
00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,720
Speaker 1: run through the international level, like at the International Olympic Committee,

240
00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:29,960
Speaker 1: where people start to see Israel should not be allowed

241
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,080
Speaker 1: to compete at the Olympics, and these kind of actions

242
00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,880
Speaker 1: all put pressure on Israel to try to change its pathway.

243
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,400
Speaker 1: I'm hopeful in time that Israel will and that we

244
00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,200
Speaker 1: can actually have a peaceful resolution of this dispute, but

245
00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,160
Speaker 1: before then you may see additional pressure placed upon them,

246
00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,880
Speaker 1: and that will be easier to do if Palestine is

247
00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,439
Speaker 1: recognized as a state with individual standing.

248
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:51,880
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us out.

249
00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:53,160
Speaker 1: You're welcome, Chelsea.

250
00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,040
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You

251
00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,760
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

252
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,800
Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot enz. The Front Page is

253
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,920
Speaker 2: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also

254
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:15,600
Speaker 2: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the front page

255
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,200
Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune

256
00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,240
Speaker 2: in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.