WEBVTT - How a fight over Greenland could put Pacific nations in the firing line 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:05.960 Kiyota. 0:00:06.040 --> 0:00:09.119 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:17.440 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herul. European leaders 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:22.439 are baffled as Trump digs his heels in over Greenland. 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:26.600 The US President has threatened to impose tariffs on eight 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:30.920 allies who remain opposed to his potential takeover of the 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.519 Danish territory. A ten percent levy will kick in on 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:39.280 February first, possibly rising to twenty five percent on June first, 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:45.440 affecting Denmark, Norway, Sweden, France, Germany, Finland, the Netherlands and 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:49.280 the UK. Trump has said the import taxes will remain 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:53.519 in place until such time a deal is reached for 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:57.840 the complete and total purchase of Greenland by the US. 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:02.760 But what does the United States want with Greenland? And 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:05.959 how soon will it be until New Zealand is swept 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:09.080 up in the chaos? Today on the front page, why 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:12.720 get the University International law professor Al Gillespie is with 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:20.479 us today us through what could happen next? First off, 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:25.279 our Trump has floated this idea about Greenland for years now, 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:28.440 but now is actually trying to make it happen. What's 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:30.360 changed between now and then? 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:33.480 It's the second step back to begin with, because like 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:37.880 the way Americans understand territory is different to most other nations, 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:41.880 and so the ability to buy land from another country 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:45.959 is something America did with Mexico, with France, with Spain, 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:49.320 and even with Denmark. And so the country you see 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:52.240 today is a conglomeration of at least four different deals, 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:54.760 which made it in a much larger area than when 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:58.200 it began in seventeen seventy six. And so some what 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:00.440 mister Trump is now saying is, well, we can add 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.760 to it, and so he's trying to continue a tradition. 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:07.520 The problem is is that in betweentieth century, the practice 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:10.799 came up that you needed people to have self determination, 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:12.680 but they would work out whether they wanted to be 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:15.200 part of another country or not. And so it wasn't 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:17.160 just about the sale, it was about the consent of 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:20.000 the people. And so mister Trump's dealing with an idea 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:22.919 that came from the eighteenth century in the twenty first century, 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:25.920 and he's discovering that the people of Denmark and the 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.880 people of Greenland don't want to sell the territory to him. 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:32.840 Well, he's reportedly refused to roll out using force or 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:37.160 some kind of annexation if Denmark and Greenland won't agree 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.480 to any kind of deal or sale. Rather, as well, 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:44.680 in legal terms, how serious is that threat and what 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:47.920 international norms would it kind of violate? 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:52.400 The most basic principles, that is for each country to 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:55.839 determine its own sovereignty and its own decisions about whether 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:59.240 they want to join another country or another organization. But 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:01.160 we're at a point with mister Trump where all of 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:04.520 the international rules have been pushed to one side. Whether 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:08.239 you're dealing with Venezuela or whether you're dealing with concerns 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:12.520 over the larger disputes with China, you're seeing many things 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:14.880 just what we want to assume were normal, no longer 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:19.119 standing up to protest the time. International law itself is questionable, 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:22.320 and the problem is not now of law, it's one 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:26.119 of politics. Because it's bad to bully anyone, it's worse 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:29.320 to bully your friends. And right now he's bullying countries 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:30.320 which you're actually on his. 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:33.480 Side, and in terms of its allies as well. He 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:38.840 has promised a tariff his favorite word, he loves that word, 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:43.480 on at least eight European countries, and starting February first 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.120 and then upping it again in too twenty five percent 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:50.440 later this year. If they don't comply, they've obviously met 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:54.200 and holding a meeting all of the European leaders or envoys. 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:56.680 What do you think those meet what would they be 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:57.760 talking about. 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:01.440 The point of trying to apply economic pressure on another 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.680 country to make it bend to your will is not 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.040 something that should be done. You can imagine if China 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:08.960 did this because they wanted an island in the Pacific, 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:11.720 or Russia did it because they wanted further acquisitions in 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:16.880 the Balkans or the Baltic and you can't behave like this. 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:20.039 But the way it responds, the way it happens, is 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:22.599 that the Europeans will now go back and say, do 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:24.839 we have a counter tariff or do we have a 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:30.680 collective response against this action which is destabilizing Europe. And 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:33.479 because for a long time most countries have tried to 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.359 have a policy of silence with mister Trump, and the 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:38.400 best defense has meant to say nothing and just try 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:41.880 to minimize the results or minimize the negative impacts. But 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:44.320 he keeps upping the ante and so you start out 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:46.480 with a ten percent tariff and now you get another 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:51.760 fifteen percent because you speak out against a potential annexation 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:54.840 of a friendly country. And so the hard part of 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:56.400 the country is now is to work out whether they 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:58.840 say anything or at what point they have to become 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:00.280 a collective inspect. 0:04:59.880 --> 0:05:02.800 To what are their options when they do speak together, 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:05.480 because they are standing as one voice. It's not often 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:07.760 that Europe speaks when with one voice. Is that the 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:11.840 likes of Serkias Starmer, Emmanuel Macron and Georgia Maloney all 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:16.720 agreeing over something is quite something to see what are 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:17.720 their options? 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:21.039 This is eight what their options are that they have 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:24.880 countermeasures and so if mister Trump puts an additional fifteen 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:28.039 percent on European goods going in for countries that support 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:32.760 Denmark and Greenland, then the Europeans would then put a 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:36.279 countermeasure on the American products coming in, and so we 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:39.000 go into a deeper trayed war. But it's not all 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:41.960 europe that are currently saying no to mister Trump. A 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:44.200 lot of other countries are sitting along the side. And 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:46.200 then it's not just the European countries, it's also the 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:47.960 countries like what do you do with Japan, what do 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.120 you do with Australia and of course, what do you 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:52.880 do with New Zealand? And Each country right now is 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:55.040 scared of putting their head up in case they get 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:57.560 a backhand from mister Trump, because just to say we 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:00.640 disagree means that you could have an economic consequence that 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:02.839 could mean people's jobs and livelihood to put at risk. 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:05.440 And what kind of position does that put New Zealand 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:08.279 in Because we've always erred on the side of keeping 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:10.880 your head down, right, well, we're. 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:13.479 Becoming masters right now keeping our head down, and so 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:17.240 you could see a situation like the invasion of Venezuela 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:20.560 and the adduction of the president and so like we 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:22.760 make needs very bland to statement about the support for 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.520 international law, but we don't say what international law it is. 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:27.719 We don't say whether the act was legal or it 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:30.799 wasn't legal. We don't say whether the Maduro had diplomatic 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:33.839 community or don't. We just try very hard not to 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.680 offend mister Trump. And so right now the right thing 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:40.120 to do is to say, you can't put economic pressure 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:41.880 on the country if it doesn't want to sell itself 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:44.480 to you. But we won't do that because we're scared 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:52.720 of the repercussions if we speak out, and by the way. 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:55.000 I'm a fan of Denmark too, I have to tell you, 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:58.200 and you know they've been very nice to me. I'm 0:06:58.200 --> 0:06:59.800 a big fan. But you know the fact that they 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:02.440 had boat land there five hundred years ago doesn't mean 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:05.960 that they own the land. Sure, we had lots of 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:09.640 boats go there also, but we need that because if 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:12.720 you take a look outside of Greenland right now, there 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:17.040 are Russian destroyers, there are Chinese destroyers and bigger there 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:20.040 are Russian submarines all over the place. We're not going 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:23.600 to have Russia or China occupy Greenland, and that's what 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:25.440 they're going to do if we don't. So we're going 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:28.080 to be doing something with Greenland, either the nice way 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:31.400 or the more difficult one. 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:34.360 And I suppose on one hand you're kind of waiting 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:36.960 until his term ends, but on the other hand, you 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:39.720 know that he's trying to get everything done before his 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:42.440 term ends and really make a name for himself and 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:44.160 mark his place in history. Hey. 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:47.720 The good thing is that Denizeland relationship, like the rest 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.360 of the world relationship with America, is bigger than mister Trump. 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.960 And so we've gone through rocky periods before and hopefully 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:56.280 post mister Trump, that will come back to a more 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:59.480 stable regime or more stable pattern, but it may not. 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:02.280 As mister Vance comes in, It's possible that you may 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.680 see a continuity of exactly the same approach. But the 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:08.880 problem now is that you've got America not putting its 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:12.440 pressure on countries which we have challenges with, but countries 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:15.880 which are friends, countries which are allies. America can get 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:19.520 all the defense arrangements that want with Greenland through NATO, 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:22.800 and we can have good relationships with Denmark. It doesn't 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:26.320 need to annex the country, and right now people aren't 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:28.800 even sure why they want to annex the country. You 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:31.120 go in with one reason, you state it's about defense. 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:33.880 It might be about security, it might be about minerals. 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.960 But there's no good faith in international relations and it's 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:39.240 destabilizing everything. 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:40.400 Well. 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:44.920 European politicians have said that Trump's treatment of long standing 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:49.280 allies was just playing into Moscow and Beijing's hands. Do 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:50.120 you agree? 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:53.920 You could not have a better playbook for destabilizing the West, 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:58.480 because the only chance that the West has of being 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:04.359 a cohesive force again against either China or against Russia 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.320 is if it's united. But when the United States is 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:12.240 threatening economic sanctions, and not even lawing out military, which 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:16.040 is just crazy against people on its own side. You've 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:18.720 got to wonder what dream we've woken up in, because 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:20.960 it's like the enemy has become not the external, but 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.720 the internal. And this means that Europe in itself could 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:27.840 break from nature. I don't think that will happen, but 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:29.559 a lot of countries are now saying, well, who is 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:32.080 the bigger threat right now? And can we rely on 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:36.160 America which is not actually economically threatening Europeans the saying 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:38.439 they don't want to sell something to the United States. 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:42.880 And what is the point of an international rules based 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:47.040 order if you've got America going into Venezuela and kidnap 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:47.880 against president. 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:52.520 The internationalalkspace order is upside down right now. The rivets 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:55.600 that hold it together are all popping quite quickly, and 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:57.640 it's important for countries like New Zealand to work out 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.680 which way we go. And I would argue that we 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:03.559 need to align ourselves more with the European values than 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:08.080 and Australia in particular as well and traditional allies, because 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:10.760 right now the United States is not representing the country 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:13.440 with values that it's necessarily the same as what we 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:14.000 believe in. 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:18.280 What do you think it'll take for Luxe and to 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:20.800 step out. Of course, I mean, especially given it's an 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.440 election year. I'm not holding it at my breath in 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:26.240 terms of, you know, doing anything out of the ordinary 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:29.800 when it comes to everything on the world stage, any. 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:33.160 Country which speaks out unilaterally without a collective behind it 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:35.280 is a high risk. And you can look at what 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:38.920 happened to Canada and you can see what's happening to Europe. 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:41.520 And so what mister Luxem would require is all of 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:46.599 the countries to speak out at the same time. Canada, Australia, Japan, Europe, 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:50.320 the friends need to have one cohesive wots because as 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.199 they remain fragmented, mister Trump will continued to bully his 0:10:53.280 --> 0:11:00.079 way through them one by one. 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:02.360 Well, the first thing I'd say is that you know, 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:05.600 the decision for Greenlander is a decision for Greenlanders. It's 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:07.959 a sovereign state and it's pretty clear that they want 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:10.559 to be part of the Kingdom of Denmark. The second 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:12.880 thing I'd say is that Tariff's is not the way 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:17.599 forward in terms of you know, we don't want to 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:19.840 see it downard spiral of tariffs and for tat Tariff 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.120 it's just not acceptable. We want to see it healthy. 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:24.520 It's the New Zealand's interests to see a healthy transatlantic 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:27.560 relationship in place. And actually we think through discussion and 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:30.960 debate and dialogue. Actually, if the US has genuine concerns 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:34.720 around Arctic security, we'll have those conversations. But you know, 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:36.800 tariff is not the way forward. So it pretty clearly. 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:41.360 If we go back to the beginning a little bit, 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:45.199 why does Trump want Greenland? 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:50.079 It's difficult to say. And part of the problem we've 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:52.000 got now is that when you've got mister Trump doing 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:54.320 certain things he does. He says one thing, but he 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:57.640 does something else. So he goes into Venezuela and he's 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.680 talking about the legal drugs trade ends up being about 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:02.800 the acquisition of oil and the removal of someone he 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:04.840 didn't like. I'm not a fan of Maduro, don't get 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:07.320 me wrong, and it's right to replace him, but there's 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.320 ways and means to do it. But the justification and 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:12.320 the result are not the same thing. So when it 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:15.920 comes to Greenland, what he wants, it could be he 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:19.800 wants access to the Arctic Circle, he wants control of 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:22.800 the minerals that are there, or it could be for 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:26.120 defense purposes, and building a security shield. It could be 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:29.520 all three, But on the defense point, it's critical to 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:33.360 note he already has those rights through NATO and under 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:37.000 existing arrangements. You don't need to annex or force the 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:39.320 sale of the country to get greater security in defense 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:42.679 for the United States, which would make many people suggest 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.600 it's not about defense, it's actually something bigger that we 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:46.360 can't yet see. 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:49.240 Well, if Trump does need the US to take over 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:53.360 Greenland to counter Chinese and Russian intelligence and threatn the Arctic, 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:57.200 what is stopping him from then looking at the Cook 0:12:57.240 --> 0:12:59.640 Islands or similar and then be like, oh, we need 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:03.000 to count on to Chinese and Russian threats in the Pacific. 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:08.080 Now nothing is stopping him. In fact, it would be 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:11.000 easier to take up parts of the Pacific where there's 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:14.200 no alliance agreement like NATO and to say we need 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:17.320 this because it's important to our security. But the risk 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.480 here is not what mister Trump sees in the Pacific. 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:22.480 It's what other countries seeing the Pacific. The risk is 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:25.680 that China designed we need to take this country for 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:28.400 our defense, or Russia says we need to take this 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.559 country for our defense, and there's no international mechanism to 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:35.040 stop this force. It starts off economic and ends up 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:38.800 being militarily where one country wrongfully takes another one, and 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.440 so the risk is huge. But we're already seeing that 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:45.400 in this lawless will, where countries act to what they 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:48.559 think are their self interests, not with regards to collective norms. 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:52.839 Right. So down here in New Zealand and Australia to 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:55.439 an extent as well, we might be looking at what 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.320 Europe's doing and what's happening over Greenland and think, oh, 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:00.480 that doesn't have too much to do with that literally 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:03.480 on the other side of the world. But further down 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:09.480 the line, if Greenland is Trump is successful in taking Greenland, 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:12.760 then Russia and China are probably looking very closely and 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:15.840 being like, oh, well we can he got away with it. 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:19.160 Yeah, that's right. And many people would argue that you're 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:23.560 currently seeing that with Ukraine and also potentially with Taiwan, 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:26.680 and that everyone who is not played by the rules 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:29.000 get something that they want and be some kind of 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:32.400 grand deal. And while the big players win, the smaller 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.240 countries and the medium sized countries are at risk if 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:39.840 the situation becomes very unstable in theory. In theory, it 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:44.600 should work. In reality, it's a dog's breakfast and it's 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.200 very dangerous because you're waiting for someone to step on 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:49.560 someone else's toe and then full conflict to break out. 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.840 If that were to happen, what kind of situation would 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:59.520 that put us in? Because it's not as outlandish ideas 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:02.560 as perhaps it sounds straight off the bat. 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:08.720 What we need to do is, in an ideal world, 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:12.560 if the Europeans put countermeasures, economic countermeasures on mister Trump 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:18.520 for his threats to annex Greenland, we should join the countermeasures. 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:21.720 We should be willing to stand with Europe to say 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:24.960 that this is wrong. But we're afraid to do that 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:29.840 right now. It's too difficult to think about what would 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:33.160 happen if NATO went to war with itself. I do 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:35.720 not think that will happen. I think that the relationship 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.360 is stronger and deeper than what's happening. But mister Trump 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:41.760 pushes things, and we've all seen it happen in every area, 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:45.160 and what we think is settled one day the next 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:48.120 day is upside down. I don't think military force will 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:51.640 be used. I think economic pressure could escalate. The economic 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:54.040 pressure will have implications for New Zealand. There will be 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.800 spill over from future and deeper trayed conflicts. But New 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:00.480 Zealand has to work out whether we remain silent or 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:03.240 whether we join the Europeans and say you can't do that. 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:06.800 Mister Trump, your role and is it likely given we 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:10.760 are entering an election year and the keyword on everyone's 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:15.160 agenda this year will be the economy. How much faith 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:18.480 do you have in the current coalition government that they 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:19.280 will stand up. 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:23.720 I don't think if it's not done collectively, I don't 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:26.640 think the current coalition government will stand up. But you 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:29.280 have to ask at what point do you stand up? 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:31.760 At what point is this some egregious action when you 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:34.680 say enough is enough? And it's in New Zealand's greater 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:37.520 interest to say no and object to mister Trump than 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:38.640 to continue this pattern. 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:40.120 Thanks for joining us OL. 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:43.320 You're welcome, Chelsea. 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.640 That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:51.440 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:55.120 at enzidhrald dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:59.120 hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels. Caine. Dickie is 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:03.320 our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:07.280 our executive producer is jane Ye. Follow the front page 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.760 on the iheartapp or wherever you get your podcasts, and 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:14.720 join us next time for another look beyond the headlines.