1 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Kiyota. 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herul. European leaders 4 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 2: are baffled as Trump digs his heels in over Greenland. 5 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 2: The US President has threatened to impose tariffs on eight 6 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 2: allies who remain opposed to his potential takeover of the 7 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 2: Danish territory. A ten percent levy will kick in on 8 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 2: February first, possibly rising to twenty five percent on June first, 9 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 2: affecting Denmark, Norway, Sweden, France, Germany, Finland, the Netherlands and 10 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 2: the UK. Trump has said the import taxes will remain 11 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 2: in place until such time a deal is reached for 12 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 2: the complete and total purchase of Greenland by the US. 13 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 2: But what does the United States want with Greenland? And 14 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 2: how soon will it be until New Zealand is swept 15 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 2: up in the chaos? Today on the front page, why 16 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 2: get the University International law professor Al Gillespie is with 17 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 2: us today us through what could happen next? First off, 18 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:25,279 Speaker 2: our Trump has floated this idea about Greenland for years now, 19 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 2: but now is actually trying to make it happen. What's 20 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: changed between now and then? 21 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 3: It's the second step back to begin with, because like 22 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 3: the way Americans understand territory is different to most other nations, 23 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 3: and so the ability to buy land from another country 24 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 3: is something America did with Mexico, with France, with Spain, 25 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 3: and even with Denmark. And so the country you see 26 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 3: today is a conglomeration of at least four different deals, 27 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 3: which made it in a much larger area than when 28 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 3: it began in seventeen seventy six. And so some what 29 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 3: mister Trump is now saying is, well, we can add 30 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 3: to it, and so he's trying to continue a tradition. 31 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 3: The problem is is that in betweentieth century, the practice 32 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,799 Speaker 3: came up that you needed people to have self determination, 33 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 3: but they would work out whether they wanted to be 34 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 3: part of another country or not. And so it wasn't 35 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 3: just about the sale, it was about the consent of 36 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 3: the people. And so mister Trump's dealing with an idea 37 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 3: that came from the eighteenth century in the twenty first century, 38 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 3: and he's discovering that the people of Denmark and the 39 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 3: people of Greenland don't want to sell the territory to him. 40 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: Well, he's reportedly refused to roll out using force or 41 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: some kind of annexation if Denmark and Greenland won't agree 42 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 2: to any kind of deal or sale. Rather, as well, 43 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 2: in legal terms, how serious is that threat and what 44 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 2: international norms would it kind of violate? 45 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 3: The most basic principles, that is for each country to 46 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,839 Speaker 3: determine its own sovereignty and its own decisions about whether 47 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 3: they want to join another country or another organization. But 48 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 3: we're at a point with mister Trump where all of 49 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 3: the international rules have been pushed to one side. Whether 50 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,239 Speaker 3: you're dealing with Venezuela or whether you're dealing with concerns 51 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 3: over the larger disputes with China, you're seeing many things 52 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 3: just what we want to assume were normal, no longer 53 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:19,119 Speaker 3: standing up to protest the time. International law itself is questionable, 54 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 3: and the problem is not now of law, it's one 55 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:26,119 Speaker 3: of politics. Because it's bad to bully anyone, it's worse 56 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 3: to bully your friends. And right now he's bullying countries 57 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 3: which you're actually on his. 58 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: Side, and in terms of its allies as well. He 59 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 2: has promised a tariff his favorite word, he loves that word, 60 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 2: on at least eight European countries, and starting February first 61 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 2: and then upping it again in too twenty five percent 62 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 2: later this year. If they don't comply, they've obviously met 63 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 2: and holding a meeting all of the European leaders or envoys. 64 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 2: What do you think those meet what would they be 65 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 2: talking about. 66 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 3: The point of trying to apply economic pressure on another 67 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 3: country to make it bend to your will is not 68 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 3: something that should be done. You can imagine if China 69 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 3: did this because they wanted an island in the Pacific, 70 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 3: or Russia did it because they wanted further acquisitions in 71 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 3: the Balkans or the Baltic and you can't behave like this. 72 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 3: But the way it responds, the way it happens, is 73 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 3: that the Europeans will now go back and say, do 74 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 3: we have a counter tariff or do we have a 75 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 3: collective response against this action which is destabilizing Europe. And 76 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 3: because for a long time most countries have tried to 77 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 3: have a policy of silence with mister Trump, and the 78 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 3: best defense has meant to say nothing and just try 79 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 3: to minimize the results or minimize the negative impacts. But 80 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 3: he keeps upping the ante and so you start out 81 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 3: with a ten percent tariff and now you get another 82 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 3: fifteen percent because you speak out against a potential annexation 83 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 3: of a friendly country. And so the hard part of 84 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 3: the country is now is to work out whether they 85 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 3: say anything or at what point they have to become 86 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 3: a collective inspect. 87 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 2: To what are their options when they do speak together, 88 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 2: because they are standing as one voice. It's not often 89 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 2: that Europe speaks when with one voice. Is that the 90 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 2: likes of Serkias Starmer, Emmanuel Macron and Georgia Maloney all 91 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 2: agreeing over something is quite something to see what are 92 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 2: their options? 93 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 3: This is eight what their options are that they have 94 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 3: countermeasures and so if mister Trump puts an additional fifteen 95 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 3: percent on European goods going in for countries that support 96 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 3: Denmark and Greenland, then the Europeans would then put a 97 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 3: countermeasure on the American products coming in, and so we 98 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 3: go into a deeper trayed war. But it's not all 99 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 3: europe that are currently saying no to mister Trump. A 100 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 3: lot of other countries are sitting along the side. And 101 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 3: then it's not just the European countries, it's also the 102 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 3: countries like what do you do with Japan, what do 103 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 3: you do with Australia and of course, what do you 104 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 3: do with New Zealand? And Each country right now is 105 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 3: scared of putting their head up in case they get 106 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 3: a backhand from mister Trump, because just to say we 107 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 3: disagree means that you could have an economic consequence that 108 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 3: could mean people's jobs and livelihood to put at risk. 109 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 2: And what kind of position does that put New Zealand 110 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 2: in Because we've always erred on the side of keeping 111 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 2: your head down, right, well, we're. 112 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 3: Becoming masters right now keeping our head down, and so 113 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 3: you could see a situation like the invasion of Venezuela 114 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 3: and the adduction of the president and so like we 115 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 3: make needs very bland to statement about the support for 116 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 3: international law, but we don't say what international law it is. 117 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 3: We don't say whether the act was legal or it 118 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,799 Speaker 3: wasn't legal. We don't say whether the Maduro had diplomatic 119 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 3: community or don't. We just try very hard not to 120 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 3: offend mister Trump. And so right now the right thing 121 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 3: to do is to say, you can't put economic pressure 122 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 3: on the country if it doesn't want to sell itself 123 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 3: to you. But we won't do that because we're scared 124 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 3: of the repercussions if we speak out, and by the way. 125 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 4: I'm a fan of Denmark too, I have to tell you, 126 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 4: and you know they've been very nice to me. I'm 127 00:06:58,200 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 4: a big fan. But you know the fact that they 128 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 4: had boat land there five hundred years ago doesn't mean 129 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 4: that they own the land. Sure, we had lots of 130 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 4: boats go there also, but we need that because if 131 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 4: you take a look outside of Greenland right now, there 132 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 4: are Russian destroyers, there are Chinese destroyers and bigger there 133 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 4: are Russian submarines all over the place. We're not going 134 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 4: to have Russia or China occupy Greenland, and that's what 135 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 4: they're going to do if we don't. So we're going 136 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 4: to be doing something with Greenland, either the nice way 137 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 4: or the more difficult one. 138 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: And I suppose on one hand you're kind of waiting 139 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 2: until his term ends, but on the other hand, you 140 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 2: know that he's trying to get everything done before his 141 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 2: term ends and really make a name for himself and 142 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 2: mark his place in history. Hey. 143 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 3: The good thing is that Denizeland relationship, like the rest 144 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 3: of the world relationship with America, is bigger than mister Trump. 145 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 3: And so we've gone through rocky periods before and hopefully 146 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 3: post mister Trump, that will come back to a more 147 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 3: stable regime or more stable pattern, but it may not. 148 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 3: As mister Vance comes in, It's possible that you may 149 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 3: see a continuity of exactly the same approach. But the 150 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 3: problem now is that you've got America not putting its 151 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 3: pressure on countries which we have challenges with, but countries 152 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 3: which are friends, countries which are allies. America can get 153 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 3: all the defense arrangements that want with Greenland through NATO, 154 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 3: and we can have good relationships with Denmark. It doesn't 155 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 3: need to annex the country, and right now people aren't 156 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 3: even sure why they want to annex the country. You 157 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 3: go in with one reason, you state it's about defense. 158 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 3: It might be about security, it might be about minerals. 159 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 3: But there's no good faith in international relations and it's 160 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 3: destabilizing everything. 161 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 4: Well. 162 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 2: European politicians have said that Trump's treatment of long standing 163 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 2: allies was just playing into Moscow and Beijing's hands. Do 164 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 2: you agree? 165 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 3: You could not have a better playbook for destabilizing the West, 166 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 3: because the only chance that the West has of being 167 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:04,359 Speaker 3: a cohesive force again against either China or against Russia 168 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 3: is if it's united. But when the United States is 169 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 3: threatening economic sanctions, and not even lawing out military, which 170 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 3: is just crazy against people on its own side. You've 171 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 3: got to wonder what dream we've woken up in, because 172 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 3: it's like the enemy has become not the external, but 173 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 3: the internal. And this means that Europe in itself could 174 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 3: break from nature. I don't think that will happen, but 175 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 3: a lot of countries are now saying, well, who is 176 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 3: the bigger threat right now? And can we rely on 177 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 3: America which is not actually economically threatening Europeans the saying 178 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 3: they don't want to sell something to the United States. 179 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 2: And what is the point of an international rules based 180 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 2: order if you've got America going into Venezuela and kidnap 181 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 2: against president. 182 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 3: The internationalalkspace order is upside down right now. The rivets 183 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 3: that hold it together are all popping quite quickly, and 184 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 3: it's important for countries like New Zealand to work out 185 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 3: which way we go. And I would argue that we 186 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 3: need to align ourselves more with the European values than 187 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 3: and Australia in particular as well and traditional allies, because 188 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 3: right now the United States is not representing the country 189 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 3: with values that it's necessarily the same as what we 190 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 3: believe in. 191 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 2: What do you think it'll take for Luxe and to 192 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: step out. Of course, I mean, especially given it's an 193 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 2: election year. I'm not holding it at my breath in 194 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 2: terms of, you know, doing anything out of the ordinary 195 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 2: when it comes to everything on the world stage, any. 196 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 3: Country which speaks out unilaterally without a collective behind it 197 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 3: is a high risk. And you can look at what 198 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 3: happened to Canada and you can see what's happening to Europe. 199 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 3: And so what mister Luxem would require is all of 200 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:46,599 Speaker 3: the countries to speak out at the same time. Canada, Australia, Japan, Europe, 201 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 3: the friends need to have one cohesive wots because as 202 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 3: they remain fragmented, mister Trump will continued to bully his 203 00:10:53,280 --> 00:11:00,079 Speaker 3: way through them one by one. 204 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: Well, the first thing I'd say is that you know, 205 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: the decision for Greenlander is a decision for Greenlanders. It's 206 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:07,959 Speaker 1: a sovereign state and it's pretty clear that they want 207 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 1: to be part of the Kingdom of Denmark. The second 208 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: thing I'd say is that Tariff's is not the way 209 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:17,599 Speaker 1: forward in terms of you know, we don't want to 210 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: see it downard spiral of tariffs and for tat Tariff 211 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: it's just not acceptable. We want to see it healthy. 212 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: It's the New Zealand's interests to see a healthy transatlantic 213 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: relationship in place. And actually we think through discussion and 214 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: debate and dialogue. Actually, if the US has genuine concerns 215 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: around Arctic security, we'll have those conversations. But you know, 216 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: tariff is not the way forward. So it pretty clearly. 217 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 2: If we go back to the beginning a little bit, 218 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 2: why does Trump want Greenland? 219 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 3: It's difficult to say. And part of the problem we've 220 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 3: got now is that when you've got mister Trump doing 221 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 3: certain things he does. He says one thing, but he 222 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 3: does something else. So he goes into Venezuela and he's 223 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 3: talking about the legal drugs trade ends up being about 224 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 3: the acquisition of oil and the removal of someone he 225 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 3: didn't like. I'm not a fan of Maduro, don't get 226 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 3: me wrong, and it's right to replace him, but there's 227 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 3: ways and means to do it. But the justification and 228 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 3: the result are not the same thing. So when it 229 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 3: comes to Greenland, what he wants, it could be he 230 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 3: wants access to the Arctic Circle, he wants control of 231 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 3: the minerals that are there, or it could be for 232 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 3: defense purposes, and building a security shield. It could be 233 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 3: all three, But on the defense point, it's critical to 234 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 3: note he already has those rights through NATO and under 235 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 3: existing arrangements. You don't need to annex or force the 236 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 3: sale of the country to get greater security in defense 237 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 3: for the United States, which would make many people suggest 238 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 3: it's not about defense, it's actually something bigger that we 239 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 3: can't yet see. 240 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 2: Well, if Trump does need the US to take over 241 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 2: Greenland to counter Chinese and Russian intelligence and threatn the Arctic, 242 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 2: what is stopping him from then looking at the Cook 243 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 2: Islands or similar and then be like, oh, we need 244 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 2: to count on to Chinese and Russian threats in the Pacific. 245 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 3: Now nothing is stopping him. In fact, it would be 246 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 3: easier to take up parts of the Pacific where there's 247 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 3: no alliance agreement like NATO and to say we need 248 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 3: this because it's important to our security. But the risk 249 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 3: here is not what mister Trump sees in the Pacific. 250 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 3: It's what other countries seeing the Pacific. The risk is 251 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 3: that China designed we need to take this country for 252 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 3: our defense, or Russia says we need to take this 253 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,559 Speaker 3: country for our defense, and there's no international mechanism to 254 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 3: stop this force. It starts off economic and ends up 255 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 3: being militarily where one country wrongfully takes another one, and 256 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 3: so the risk is huge. But we're already seeing that 257 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 3: in this lawless will, where countries act to what they 258 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 3: think are their self interests, not with regards to collective norms. 259 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,839 Speaker 2: Right. So down here in New Zealand and Australia to 260 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 2: an extent as well, we might be looking at what 261 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 2: Europe's doing and what's happening over Greenland and think, oh, 262 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 2: that doesn't have too much to do with that literally 263 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 2: on the other side of the world. But further down 264 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 2: the line, if Greenland is Trump is successful in taking Greenland, 265 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 2: then Russia and China are probably looking very closely and 266 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 2: being like, oh, well we can he got away with it. 267 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. And many people would argue that you're 268 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 3: currently seeing that with Ukraine and also potentially with Taiwan, 269 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 3: and that everyone who is not played by the rules 270 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 3: get something that they want and be some kind of 271 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 3: grand deal. And while the big players win, the smaller 272 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 3: countries and the medium sized countries are at risk if 273 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 3: the situation becomes very unstable in theory. In theory, it 274 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 3: should work. In reality, it's a dog's breakfast and it's 275 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 3: very dangerous because you're waiting for someone to step on 276 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 3: someone else's toe and then full conflict to break out. 277 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 2: If that were to happen, what kind of situation would 278 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 2: that put us in? Because it's not as outlandish ideas 279 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 2: as perhaps it sounds straight off the bat. 280 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 3: What we need to do is, in an ideal world, 281 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 3: if the Europeans put countermeasures, economic countermeasures on mister Trump 282 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 3: for his threats to annex Greenland, we should join the countermeasures. 283 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 3: We should be willing to stand with Europe to say 284 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 3: that this is wrong. But we're afraid to do that 285 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 3: right now. It's too difficult to think about what would 286 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 3: happen if NATO went to war with itself. I do 287 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 3: not think that will happen. I think that the relationship 288 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 3: is stronger and deeper than what's happening. But mister Trump 289 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 3: pushes things, and we've all seen it happen in every area, 290 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 3: and what we think is settled one day the next 291 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 3: day is upside down. I don't think military force will 292 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 3: be used. I think economic pressure could escalate. The economic 293 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 3: pressure will have implications for New Zealand. There will be 294 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 3: spill over from future and deeper trayed conflicts. But New 295 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 3: Zealand has to work out whether we remain silent or 296 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 3: whether we join the Europeans and say you can't do that. 297 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 2: Mister Trump, your role and is it likely given we 298 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 2: are entering an election year and the keyword on everyone's 299 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 2: agenda this year will be the economy. How much faith 300 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 2: do you have in the current coalition government that they 301 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 2: will stand up. 302 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 3: I don't think if it's not done collectively, I don't 303 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 3: think the current coalition government will stand up. But you 304 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 3: have to ask at what point do you stand up? 305 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 3: At what point is this some egregious action when you 306 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 3: say enough is enough? And it's in New Zealand's greater 307 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 3: interest to say no and object to mister Trump than 308 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 3: to continue this pattern. 309 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us OL. 310 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 3: You're welcome, Chelsea. 311 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 312 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 313 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 2: at enzidhrald dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 314 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 2: hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels. Caine. Dickie is 315 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 2: our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and 316 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 2: our executive producer is jane Ye. Follow the front page 317 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 2: on the iheartapp or wherever you get your podcasts, and 318 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 2: join us next time for another look beyond the headlines.