WEBVTT - Episode 4: Understanding Natalia 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:05.080 This episode contains references to suicide. You can find links 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:09.840 in our show notes to support services. For over twenty years, 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:16.200 Natalia Burgess has created online fantasy worlds using photographs lifted 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:19.600 from the social media accounts of others. She has crafted 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:23.319 worlds where she's pretty popular and surrounded by a group 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:27.920 of friends who are equally beloved. She could have stopped 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:31.480 at breathing life until all these characters and just basked 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:35.640 in the attention that they received, living as Abbi Becker, 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:40.000 Rachel Kayley and all the other names. But she went 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:44.440 so much further. She's the writer, director, and producer of 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:49.040 her own cinematic universe, where the most extraordinary things can 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:54.360 and usually do happen, and often they happen because Natalia 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:58.960 engineers it to be so. Remember, she has called herself 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:05.440 up a tear. She's convinced people to become online friends, lovers, 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:09.720 surrogate grandparents for children who didn't exist. Her characters have 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:13.600 fallen pregnant and miscarried. She's killed off characters with car 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:17.919 accidents and suicide, then broken the news over the phone 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:21.760 to people who shock at the loss. Is still palpable today, 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:26.000 as you've heard over the last three episodes. Many of 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:30.360 those full Bonatalia have strong feelings about her behavior. 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:33.680 And to this day always looking over my shoulder. I 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:35.800 don't want friendships because of this. 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:38.959 It's her and annoy that she's done all this for 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:41.240 what what reason would she get out of doing this? 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:44.120 It was crazy. It was like she knew where to 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:44.920 hit us were her. 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:48.360 She's just shadow stalker. I don't trust people. You just 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:50.920 want to co sort the skirl ours, give her a 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:52.680 shake and say what's wrong with you? 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:55.160 That was almost to the point where it made me 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:57.400 sick and the stomach well of what this woman. 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:00.640 Was do we I'm so so and agree with her. 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:03.800 She just doesn't get the fact that she's messing with 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:04.920 people's lives. 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:09.800 She's a monster. She is a monster with no conscience. 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:14.120 You can understand the pain and heartbreak that these people 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:16.920 have felt. It took years for some of them to 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:20.400 realize the truth about how they have been betrayed. Many 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:23.200 are still living with the pain and trauma from those 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:27.839 incidents now. But another thing many share is a need 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:32.480 to understand Natalia, to understand why someone they didn't know 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:38.200 caused them so much pain. My name's David Fisher and 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:43.480 I'm the investigative journalist who exposed Natalia thirteen years ago, 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:47.840 and ever since I've wanted that too. I want to 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:52.280 know what makes Natalia tick, and I know just the 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:55.080 right person to help me understand the puppeteer. 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:59.079 I'm doctor Justin Barry walf She, a forensic psychiatrist. Have 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:01.880 been doing that for about thirty years. What that means 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:05.160 is I am a psychiatrist that works with people that 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:09.160 come into contact with law in various ways, particularly those 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:11.400 people that can make criminal offenses. 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:14.560 Justin works with a wide range of people with mental 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:17.600 health issues who have committed crimes from the low to 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:21.080 the most serious end of the scale. I met Justin 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:24.000 because of the work he was doing identifying people who 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:26.600 have particular fixations with politicians. 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:30.200 I work as the lead clinician for the Fixator Threat 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:34.480 Assessment Center, which is a novel service that deals with 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:38.840 people that communicate in concerning and threatening ways with politicians. 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.840 The reason for doing that is not tech politicians, but 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:44.880 because it identifies a group of people are often an 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:48.000 urgent need of intervention and mental health treatment. 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:51.240 As a journalist, when I'm writing about people who do 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:55.920 unusual things, I find it possible to ignore the question why. 0:03:56.560 --> 0:03:59.520 It's a question that scratches at me because it's not 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:03.520 just an enough to explain what someone is doing. Rather, 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.760 I need to understand what drove someone to do what 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:10.480 they did or behave as they have. When it came 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:13.400 to finding a mental health professional with an expertise and 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:17.880 people who had fixations who was stalkers, Dr Barry Walsh 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:23.000 is the perfect sounding board to help me understand Natalia. 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:26.839 I provided Dr Barry Walsh with as much base information 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:30.360 as I could, and that included all the stories published, 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:33.840 But I first encountered Natalia and the judges sentencing notes 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:37.880 from twenty thirteen and the parole reports when Natalia sought 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:41.840 to be released from jail. First though a caveat, one 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:45.000 from me and one from Dr Barry Walsh, but both 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:49.120 with the same message. What we learn here is speculation, 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:55.360 albeit speculation informed through three decades of experience. Here's Dr 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:57.280 Barry Walsh with the same message. 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:01.159 I qualify what I'd say first by indicating I've never 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:03.600 interview this woman. So there's a great deal. I don't 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:04.320 know about it. 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:07.719 But there's enough there to get an inkling, a speculative 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:11.360 inkling that for me rings true. With all I now 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:12.839 know about Natalia. 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:17.279 What strikes me about this woman is from a psychiatric perspective. 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:22.000 I see it primarily as having difficulties and profound difficulties 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:24.960 based on the information that's available to me in her 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:29.039 personality functioning, this sense of identity, and the way in 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:34.600 which she expresses herself, and that includes presumably in her sexuality, 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:38.240 and in her ability and facility to relate to other people. 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:40.360 I think these are the kind of things that probably 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:46.040 are contributing to this extraordinary pattern of behavior that we're seeing. 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:52.200 An extraordinary pattern of behavior, well, that's one way of 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:56.120 putting it. But before we get any further, we need 0:05:56.160 --> 0:06:00.240 to take a step back. For three episodes, we've heard 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:03.640 from a lot of Natalia's victims. We've been talking a 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:07.800 lot about Natalia and her characters, but not as much 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:11.719 about the woman herself. I think it's about time you 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:15.760 met Natalia properly to give you a better, more rounded 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:18.599 picture of who she is. I need to share what 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:22.520 I've learned about her over the last thirteen years. And 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:24.880 the first thing I'll tell you about Natalia is that, 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:28.920 in spite of all that she has done, I like her. 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:35.280 She's a bright, bubbly personality. She's also self aware and 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:40.960 she's fragile. This is chasing ghosts, the puppeteer, and it's 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:53.960 time we met the woman who's pulling the strings. Natalia 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:57.600 raved Burgess was born in nineteen eighty four. She's of 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:01.720 some own ethnicity and adopted into a Parlagy or European 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:06.480 family who adoptive parents are hard working, church going people 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:10.040 whose lives have largely revolved around their service to the 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:14.040 Salvation Army. The Natalia Io Church is an important part 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:17.680 of her life. With her parents' lives dedicated to service 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:21.040 through the Salvation Army, they moved around a lot, so 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:25.360 while Natalia might have started in Hamilton, there were periods 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:29.760 lived in Palmsden North and Christchurch and for a period 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:33.600 on the West Coast of the South Island. The West 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:37.120 Coast is one of New Zealand's least diverse communities. In 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.600 twenty twenty three, when nine percent of New Zealand's population 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:44.240 identified as Pacifica, the community on the West Coast was 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:48.440 a fraction, not even two percent. It's hard to describe 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:52.480 how isolating that experience would have been. In her nineteen 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:56.840 ninety two class photo from Westport North School. Natalia is 0:07:56.840 --> 0:08:00.000 one of the few facing the camera who is not European, 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:04.160 and of those kids, she's the only one who's not Malory. 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:08.040 By her teenage years. Though Natalie was in christ Church 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:12.640 at Avonside Girls High. In classmates I've spoken to, they 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:17.200 remember her as trouble, someone who gossiped, caused drama, and 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:20.200 this was something she acknowledged later in her interview with 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:21.040 sixty Minutes. 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.880 I started stealing to buy friends, and that's probably where 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:29.280 it all started. From buying friends. I can remember very 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.120 vivili asist your money and then invite everyone in the 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:33.400 classroom fish ships for lunch. 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:36.640 It was around this period she told me that she 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:39.080 began to abuse alcohol and drugs. 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:40.400 It started off. 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:42.920 Just like alcohol and we done in christ Church and 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:45.200 agree spa hero one for a little bit. And then 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:49.400 I went to Rehead and supposedly that saved the whole world, 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:50.600 but it didn't. 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:53.040 It was just a great, big lie. And then we 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:55.600 came up here and I was introduced to pee and 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:57.199 then that was. 0:08:57.120 --> 0:08:57.520 The end of it. 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:01.440 How's that decade old audio quality? If you've been listening 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.640 since episode one, then you may recognize that crackle and 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:08.440 all that background noise. That was back in twenty eleven 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:11.400 when I interviewed Natalia for the first time at the 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:15.800 Muffin break in the Westfield malland Monaco, You'll recall that 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:18.719 it took me a while to get the interview with Natalia. 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.400 I'd written several stories by the time Natalia finally agreed 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:24.800 to chat, all of them from the perspective of her 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:27.760 victims and those who have been hurt by her. But 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:30.040 this was the first time I really got to know 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:34.120 her story in her own words, though her story can 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:37.240 also be found through court documents from around the country. 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:41.520 There's a lot of darkness in Natalia's backstory, drug abuse, 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:44.239 addiction issues, gang connections. 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:45.280 I don't know who I. 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.840 Am without the drugs because the drugs have been in 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:51.400 my life since I was Bourte. I'd been part of 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:53.640 different games. I've been part of, you know that kind 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:54.760 of stuffed at I was Bourte. 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:58.160 And there's prostitution as well in her past. 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:03.960 So motions related to with a six week no But 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.079 you've been fought by police workers six weekly. 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:08.360 Why did you do that? 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:10.800 Where did Jandigo past hitch? 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:13.559 Yeah, when you're quite young then was that it was 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:14.760 a long time ago down there. 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:17.679 I was fourteene. 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:18.200 Yeah. 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:23.040 Natalia left christ Church around the age of seventeen or 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:28.600 eighteen and moved to Auckland. That criminal offending continued there, 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:32.400 which was when Natalia started down the path that leads 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:36.960 us to this podcast. Back in twenty eleven, Natalia told 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:40.079 me that in christ Church she had never used the 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:43.520 Internet because the family didn't have a computer. But in 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.800 two thousand and one, when Natalia moved to Auckland with 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:50.320 her family, she did have access, and that's when her 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:55.679 relationship with social media began. Back then, the Internet was 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:59.120 very much in its infancy, the age of dial up 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:01.760 modems that you couldn't use the same time in order 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:06.360 to make a phone call. When Natalia ventured online, she 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:10.280 found a corner of the Internet called usenet, a network 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:14.720 of online discussion forums broken up into specific interest areas 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:17.960 used at birth a lot of the terms we now 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:23.360 use online, such as faq or spam and sock puppet, 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:27.600 the term used for online false identities. And that's where 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:32.920 Natalia started using a character called Chickadee and creating an 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:37.240 online persona. That was the beginning of sprawling fancy worlds 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:39.000 that would last for decades. 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:42.000 Yeah, that was like when we first moved to Auckland, 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:45.320 and that was the found a net that was using 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:48.120 different handles rather than different personalities. 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:49.800 Then it was just an emits of thing. 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:54.400 As technology developed, it created further richer opportunities. 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:57.760 And the more the years prose, I think, the more 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:01.480 I got better at it and the more I got clever, 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.439 and all technology came into handlight elf wound. 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:10.040 It's difficult to track when exactly catfishing became what appears 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:13.400 to be a full time job for Natalia. I can 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:17.280 guess that as more social media networks launched that she 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:21.280 slowly found a way online. It was MySpace in two 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:24.400 thousand and three, Bibo in two thousand and five, and 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:28.240 the big one, Facebook in two thousand and six. We know, 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:32.080 for example, that one of her first fully fleshed out 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:35.559 characters was called Amy, who found life on Bibo in 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:39.640 its early days. We also know that it was around 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:43.160 two thousand and six that she started taking the photos 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:48.360 that formed the basis for the Laura West character. At 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:53.240 this time, Natalia was in Wellington because court documents show 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:56.559 that she lied to the charity for Pregnant Young People 0:12:56.600 --> 0:13:00.520 about expecting a child, and while in Wellington, there were 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:04.080 two teenagers that she became involved with. I can't say 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:06.800 too much about the case, but I did speak with 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:09.959 the mother of these boys, who recalls the Talia calling 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:11.200 with some big news. 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:13.800 She said she was pregnant to one or the other 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:16.880 of the boys. This was our first grandchild. They thought 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:18.520 they could handle it, but she's obsessive. 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:21.920 This was around the time Natalia sought shelter at the 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:26.440 Home for teenage Mums. Ultimately, she was convicted of ford 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:29.480 because well, she wasn't pregnant. 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:31.880 I don't know if she knows herself where the truth 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:33.080 ends and the facts begin. 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:34.680 She tells so many stories. 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:37.760 She weaves in these stories, she finds out about all 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:39.959 their friends and weaves in people in the neighborhood. 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.199 By two thousand and eight, Natalie was in prison and 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:46.520 even from behind bars, was able to reach out and 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:50.120 connect with those she was falling. Another mom I spoke 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:53.559 to a woman whose son Natalia formed a relationship with 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:57.920 through a false character record communication, with her switching from 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:01.520 mainly online to mainly tell her phone. It was only 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:04.319 much later that she learned Natalia had been in prison 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:07.400 and at a time inside overlapped with the increase in 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:12.520 voice calls, but it wasn't only voice calls. Even when 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:16.280 in prison, Natalia claimed she could go online. When I 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.040 introduced Natalia to the woman who was the face for 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:22.440 Laura West, this is what she said during that conversation. 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:25.680 All those times there was chances for me to go online, 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:28.640 still pretend to du online. We could guard there would bring. 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:29.000 Us uff in. 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:32.720 By twenty ten, Natalie was out of prison and living 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:35.960 with her parents back in Auckland, not far from Monaco. 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:39.080 She told me later that she'd given up drugs at 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:42.600 this point, which we'll come back to. We also know 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:46.400 that she was obsessed with Shortened Street, New Zealand's longest 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:50.320 running soap opera at the time. She would go on 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:53.880 to link her false characters to several of the actors, 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:58.080 claiming either a connection by family or in one case, 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:03.200 claiming that she was carrying an actor's child. Speaking to 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:06.800 me in twenty eleven, a year later, Natalia said that 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:08.840 she had wanted to give it all up. 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:10.680 I think I was just trying to get rid of it, 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:14.080 Like I got rid of Amy and then I got 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:14.680 seen to jail. 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:15.760 End the story. 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:18.320 Amy got rid of I got rid of got seen 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.160 to Jaile Inger player story and I dad. 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:24.320 Deal with anybody ir again. And then when I got 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:26.040 out of jail, I'm not what happened. 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:28.040 I think I just went on Laura's a great profile 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:32.320 and then I just he hatted talking Van and I 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:33.600 had a horrible day at home. 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:34.840 I think in the probation. 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:37.400 Officer they had really about session and then I just 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:39.360 ended up starting. 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:39.560 All over you. 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:42.840 The death of Amy is not the last time Natalia 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:45.280 killed off her character, but she had plenty of other 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:50.200 characters to take her place. Laura, Rachel Becker, Abby, this 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:54.240 was their time to shine. That's when Natalia's schemes and 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:58.400 machinations went into high gear. The number of people she 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:02.520 engaged with ramped up. This is when she started catfishing 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:05.880 the likes of Ethan and Sam from episode one, when 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:09.000 she met the mother and daughter Bernie and Emma. When 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:12.560 she went after around forty boys from Saint Thomas's School 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:17.760 in Canterbury, it was all consuming, an all but guarantee 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:22.680 that someone somewhere was going to take action, and that 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:27.160 turned out to be me revealing her identity in twenty eleven. 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:32.160 Two years later, she went to jail and when sentenced, 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:36.600 the judge told the court Natalia had around forty convictions 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:41.200 in total, multiple convictions for fraud in number for not 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:46.120 complying with court orders. There she stayed until May twenty fifteen, 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:50.520 when she was released on parole. That is, until she 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:53.280 was caught in breach of a parole condition that she 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.960 wasn't to access the Internet, and that led to a 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:00.520 return to jail and another six months on her sentence. 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:06.360 She was eventually released in November twenty fifteen. Then at 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:11.040 some point in twenty sixteen, Kaylie Rose emerges We're in 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:15.080 the face of Crystal Jenna and starts messaging Danica Baxter. 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:26.560 With all that in mind, let's go back to Dr 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:31.560 Justin Barry Walsh, and again I must stress he is speculating. 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:35.680 Look, the first thing is that she sounds like she's 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:39.280 been doing this since the internet's been available to do this, 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.639 which leads me to speculate that even prior to that, 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:47.000 she had a proclivity for or a tendency to invent 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.879 or to fantasize about herself and who she was. Because 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:56.879 that doesn't just start suddenly. I think that it highlights 0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:01.639 that there are enduring aspects of his secological makeup. One 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:04.639 of the things that strikes me is she has this 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:09.400 incredible capacity and tendency in quite a self destructive way, 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.760 ultimately to lie and to lie about everything, to lie 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:16.879 about her identity, and to exaggerate in kind of grandiose 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.320 and fantastic ways at times as well. You don't look 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:22.600 at all these dramatic things she's claimed. Now, there is 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.119 a term for that. It is just a description of 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:28.960 the behavior. We call it pseudo logia fantastic, which just 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:35.320 means a fantastic lying when translated in my experience and 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:38.320 from the limited literature about this as a behavior when 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:41.840 it emerges in the context of personality disturbance, because there 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:44.760 can be other things sitting underneath it, it often seems 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:47.000 to relate to someone who has a profound sense of 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:50.199 inadequacy about who they are, not sure who they are, 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:56.520 and a desire to lie in order to be or 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:58.960 to possess things that she doesn't have. 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:01.880 Which from reminded me of something that Tarlie has said 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:03.240 on Sixty Minutes. 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:05.879 I've never felt a traits of and I've never felt 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:12.040 love a mess. I literally didn't like how I was, 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:15.000 I hated my life and so that's when I first 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:15.679 created Amy. 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:19.160 Back to Dr Barry Walsh, as I've had a sense 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:22.239 of inadequacy and low self esteem in terms of who 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:26.080 she is and what she aspires or would like to be. 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:30.439 I mean, so it suggests that one of the functions 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:34.639 of these fantasies is to meet this terrible need that 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:37.159 she has to fill this awful gap. She doesn't know 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:40.439 who she is, and she feels very bad about how 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:41.399 she views herself. 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:44.760 I told Doctor Barry Walsh about the elaborate family tree 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:48.840 I'd found which mapped out the relationships between the personas 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:51.320 the one reference back in episode three. 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.960 That's an extraordinary amount of time and commitment to create 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:58.680 that kind of family tree. All of the stuff that 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:02.440 she does takes an awfu way work. So this consumes 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:06.159 her life. She's spectated in a sense, on this endless 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:09.960 drive to engage it in these ways. She's not just 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:11.680 doing it in her spare time. 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:14.480 That actually feeds back to one thing that Talie has 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:16.640 said to me in twenty eleven that stood out. 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:20.600 As much as everyone says they were all faked, that 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:22.359 was my life. I was living on the end of 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:24.600 that cat room, you know. 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:26.760 I got up in the morning, I went to church, 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:30.480 I did the work stuff, I did whatever I was 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:31.520 doing in a normal day. 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:34.159 It wasn't my fake's life that I was living. It 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:34.960 was my life. 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:37.720 That makes any sense, it kind of does. 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:40.960 But but you didn't put your life or your life 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:44.960 gets dissminated through a different place, personalities or whatever it 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:45.760 might be, or. 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.159 No, because when I talk to people on the phone 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:51.280 and it's fake, it's fill my life. 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:51.600 That I lived. 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:55.080 She definitely was investing a lot of time in this. 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:58.680 At one point in our chat, she guesses it creating 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:04.160 about ten differentiles, though also stresses how complicated tracking multiple 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:04.960 accounts can be. 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:08.080 But I don't usually talk to more than one person 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:10.479 at a time. I didn't horribly compared. 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:13.080 I don't know how you keep tracking it anyway, you 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:15.119 keep tracking things. 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:15.320 In or. 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:20.000 Stuffed up. So many times I've called this wrong person, 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:23.200 I pulled myself the wrong name. I've called the wrong 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:24.280 boy the wrong name. 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:24.560 You go. 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:28.640 It should be stressed here. And doctor Barry Walsh did 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:31.879 stress this when we spoke that while we have some 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:36.000 insight from Natalia herself, we are doing a fair degree 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:40.840 of speculation. We also have parole reports which make reference 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:45.680 to mental health and the sentencing notes. There's also Natalia's 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:49.320 own words in which she has spoken of a diagnosis. 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:53.040 We know from what you've written about that she's set 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:55.280 to you has borderline personality disorder. 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:59.439 That's right. Here's me talking to Natalia in twenty eleven, 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:01.480 had mental health assessments. 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:02.320 Do you want another day? 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:02.760 Yeah? I do. 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:04.360 I really want to know because I want to try 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:05.800 and understand why this has happening. 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:10.320 Ball on my personality disorder. Yeah, the musciple personality disorder. 0:22:11.119 --> 0:22:13.960 So when I create these people, I actually think I 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:17.159 am these people. Sometimes when I get that caught up 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:19.320 in those worlds, I. 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:22.399 Used to think I was that person. 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:27.640 Doctor Justin Barry Walsh called this a somewhat problematic diagnosis. 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:30.960 What it's trying to capture is a group of people 0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:35.840 who do struggle with their sense of identity and struggle 0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:38.000 in their relationships with others. And one of the things 0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:41.680 you commonly see with these people is they're both terrified 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:46.800 of being abandoned and feel threatened by intimacy. And it 0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:50.159 may be that she's got that to do an extreme degree, 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:55.000 and that she has this terrible need to establish relationships 0:22:55.760 --> 0:23:00.199