Speaker 1: Gilda.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a compilation episode of
Speaker 2: The Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the New
Speaker 2: Zealand Herald. Law and order is always a hot topic
Speaker 2: of debate amongst politicians. The Coalition government was elected in
Speaker 2: part on the back of years of ram raids and
Speaker 2: violent robberies post COVID. The last twelve months has seen
Speaker 2: delivery on promises to bring back boot camps for young offenders,
Speaker 2: a crackdown on gangs, and the return of three strikes legislation.
Speaker 2: Today on the Front Page, we'll be revisiting the many
Speaker 2: conversations we've had about crime and the justice system in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, looking at how effective some of those
Speaker 2: policies are and what we could be doing better. First, though,
Speaker 2: to set the scene, let's revisit our conversation from July
Speaker 2: with Herald's Scene reporter Derek Chang about what data tells
Speaker 2: us about how much crime is happening and how unsafe
Speaker 2: we feel.
Speaker 3: You know, there are lots of different measures for crime.
Speaker 4: There's no definitive crime data, and when you're looking at
Speaker 4: different crime data sources, the best thing is to look
Speaker 4: at the trends over time. So you know, the latest
Speaker 4: Crime and Victim Survey, for example, it includes unreported crime.
Speaker 4: You know, a lot of crime is not reported, roughly
Speaker 4: three quarters of it, so it's considered one of.
Speaker 3: The better crime statistics.
Speaker 4: And if you look at that survey, crime has been
Speaker 4: relatively steady since twenty eighteen, which was the first year
Speaker 4: of the survey, So about seventy percent of us say
Speaker 4: that we live crime free lives. But a different measure
Speaker 4: there on feeling unsafe. There's been a big increase in
Speaker 4: those of us who feel unsafe. That's gone from nine
Speaker 4: to fifteen percent over the last six years, with the
Speaker 4: biggest jump occurring between twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three.
Speaker 4: And it's also for victims and non victims. So there's
Speaker 4: a little weird thing going on there. But it's not
Speaker 4: uncommon for feelings of safety to not necessarily reflect the
Speaker 4: amount of crime that's going on, and there's lots of
Speaker 4: factors that are potentially at play there.
Speaker 3: So the proportion of Asian.
Speaker 4: New Zealanders, for example, feeling unsafe doubled from eleven to
Speaker 4: twenty two percent over that time, and the surveys suggested
Speaker 4: that racism during COVID might have contributed to that what does.
Speaker 3: That mean for the government.
Speaker 4: While the steady rate of crime doesn't really fit with
Speaker 4: Luxin's narrative that crime is out of control, he much
Speaker 4: rather prefers to cherry pickers crime data to suit his message,
Speaker 4: and that, to be fair, is not uncommon for politicians,
Speaker 4: And those results also don't really sit with Luxen's lines
Speaker 4: about h weis don't feel safe in that homes. He's
Speaker 4: right that there's been an increase in feelings of not
Speaker 4: being safe, but I don't think anyone would take fifteen
Speaker 4: percent and just broadly say what key we don't feel
Speaker 4: in their homes.
Speaker 2: It's interesting seeing the police data, hey, when it comes
Speaker 2: out and those victim surveys, because you're right, when you
Speaker 2: look at it on the outset, you can't really see
Speaker 2: any obvious trends. But if you choose to zoom in
Speaker 2: on specifics, as in, you know, a youth crime for instance,
Speaker 2: over this period these ages, you can if you zoom
Speaker 2: in and pinpoint some statistics, you can say that during
Speaker 2: this specific time youth crime got more serious. But like
Speaker 2: you say, if you zoom out, then it's a completely
Speaker 2: different picture.
Speaker 4: Well, I think that people's experience of crime is often
Speaker 4: a different picture entirely because if you are a victim
Speaker 4: of crime, and that will affect you and then your
Speaker 4: household and you know, your wider circle. So you know,
Speaker 4: you're right that youth crime has been ticking up in
Speaker 4: recent years, and that's particularly prevalent in things like robberies
Speaker 4: and burglaries and theft, and you know that is in
Speaker 4: the statistics as well well. But you know, even if
Speaker 4: overall crime is quite steady, how people experiencing it and
Speaker 4: how that goes through the grapevine the society is very different. So,
Speaker 4: like I said before, it is not that uncommon for
Speaker 4: people to feel less safe, even if the crime data
Speaker 4: doesn't really show that we are actually less safe.
Speaker 5: Look, we're seeing a lot in the media and coming
Speaker 5: up from police about, you know, a recent incidence of
Speaker 5: sort of increasingly younger people doing increasingly severe offending. The
Speaker 5: stats over the last few years actually show overall that
Speaker 5: youth crime offending numbers are decreasing, but what we're seeing
Speaker 5: is sort of worse offending.
Speaker 2: What challenge does it create for the government when people
Speaker 2: are more afraid of crime than actually experiencing it.
Speaker 4: Well, I think you know a lot of politics, as
Speaker 4: retail politics, you have to respond to what the perceptions are.
Speaker 4: So you know, it suits the Prime Minister Christopher Luxeen
Speaker 4: to say that crime is out of control and that
Speaker 4: people don't feel safe in their homes because that resonates
Speaker 4: with people, and then he can come in and say, well,
Speaker 4: this is our law and order agender and we.
Speaker 3: Know these things are popular.
Speaker 4: So when we say we're going to crack down on gangs, yes,
Speaker 4: gang membership has gone up, largely because of the five
Speaker 4: oh one departies from Australia, so we're going to do
Speaker 4: something about that. Youth crime is up, so you know
Speaker 4: we've got our boot camps, We've campaigned on them. It
Speaker 4: doesn't matter what the evidence says. In particular, because we
Speaker 4: see a problem, we all know there's a problem when
Speaker 4: we're going to do something about it. Three strikes, longer sentences,
Speaker 4: these are all things that resonate with the public. So
Speaker 4: it's a common political strategy to respond to the perceptions
Speaker 4: of what's going on out there, and this government's no different.
Speaker 2: Really, young offenders have been in the target of this government,
Speaker 2: with boot camps being reintroduced despite previous attempts by early
Speaker 2: national governments not delivering shining results. In October, a rooftop
Speaker 2: protest by thirteen offenders at a youth justice facility raised
Speaker 2: the question once again on if we're handling these cases properly.
Speaker 2: We spoke to youth worker and founder of Kickback Youth
Speaker 2: Development Aaron Hendry to get insight into the lives of
Speaker 2: our youngest offenders.
Speaker 6: When we have this conversation that we first center and
Speaker 6: take a step back and understand who these children are
Speaker 6: that are in these residential facilities. You know, these are
Speaker 6: young people that they're honesty is they've experienced some of
Speaker 6: the worst that New Zealand society has to offer. You know,
Speaker 6: often they were victims first before they've gone on to
Speaker 6: cause harm in the community. They've been physically harmed, mentally, emotionally,
Speaker 6: they have been let down by us as a community.
Speaker 6: Often they would have experienced poverty, homelessness. You know, some
Speaker 6: will have disabilities and severe mental health needs, and we'll
Speaker 6: have experience some really significant trauma. You know, the evidence
Speaker 6: backs that up. And we look kind of globally around
Speaker 6: the world, you know, where we see young people coming
Speaker 6: into confidence for the law and then kind of being
Speaker 6: funneled into these systems. These are the driving factors, the
Speaker 6: reasons behind that offending in the first place, and so
Speaker 6: it's really important to understand that. And then when we
Speaker 6: see behavior like this, it's really easy to look at
Speaker 6: a picture or see an image and think, oh, you know,
Speaker 6: they're just acting out. But there's a reason why they
Speaker 6: are up on that roof for in that situation, and
Speaker 6: often it's coming from a space of the trauma and
Speaker 6: pain and a young person or a child that's not
Speaker 6: being hurt and doesn't feel like they're getting their most
Speaker 6: basic needs met.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's what we have to remember
Speaker 2: as well with these kind of situations. Hey, that these
Speaker 2: kids society's most neglected. Can you tell me a little
Speaker 2: bit more about these kids and what kind of lives
Speaker 2: they may have led.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I mean when we look at the data and the
Speaker 6: research around young people that end up in these sort
Speaker 6: of facilities, you know, some of them have slept rough
Speaker 6: since they were young. You know that home hasn't been safe,
Speaker 6: and so they've ended up sleeping on our streets. Think
Speaker 6: about how unsafe you must have to be or feel
Speaker 6: as a child to think that sleeping outside, you know,
Speaker 6: on busy Queen Street was a safer option for you.
Speaker 6: In some cases, you know, they're coming from Farno who
Speaker 6: are really struggling, you know, families that really love their
Speaker 6: kids and yet are doing impossible things, trying to keep
Speaker 6: a roof over the heads, working you know, multiple jobs
Speaker 6: and just don't have the time and the resources they
Speaker 6: need to really care for their young people well. And
Speaker 6: you know, as a community we haven't supported them. Some
Speaker 6: of these young people will have disabilities and will have
Speaker 6: significant you know, mental health needs and be using substances
Speaker 6: as a way to cope, and families may be struggling
Speaker 6: to manage and support that without the resources and the
Speaker 6: layers of community around them to best look after them
Speaker 6: and care for them while trying to deal with this
Speaker 6: you know crisis called poverty and housing and security that
Speaker 6: many of our Farnam are dealing with. The Other thing
Speaker 6: we know about young people that end up in these
Speaker 6: facilities is that often the community was aware that they
Speaker 6: needed help, they were aware that their families needed help,
Speaker 6: and as a community we haven't had the resources to
Speaker 6: actually come down support them care for them long before
Speaker 6: they ever came into conflict with the law and ended
Speaker 6: up in the justice system. There's a lot that can
Speaker 6: be said, and there is a lot that is said
Speaker 6: about our young people, But I think the thing that
Speaker 6: we need to fundamentally focus on and remember is that
Speaker 6: these children are here because of our failure as a
Speaker 6: society and as a country. We have not valued the
Speaker 6: lives of these young people well enough. We haven't cared
Speaker 6: for them, we haven't ensured we build societies and communities
Speaker 6: that can provide them with the resources they need, and
Speaker 6: as a result, they have entered into these systems. I
Speaker 6: think that's saying that we really need to keep front
Speaker 6: of mind when we're having a conversation around young people
Speaker 6: in the justice system.
Speaker 2: Police Minister Mark Mitchell is one of the politicians responsible
Speaker 2: for overseeing law and order in this country. He joined
Speaker 2: us in May in the wake of the government announcing
Speaker 2: a new task force designed to make life difficult for
Speaker 2: gangs in this country. National has been eyeing up a
Speaker 2: unit like this for years. Hey, and it's in reference
Speaker 2: to the New South Wales's Strikeforce Raptor. First off, what
Speaker 2: do you make of that name? Why didn't you call
Speaker 2: us Strikeforce Raptor.
Speaker 7: Well, I'm sure that the ausies would excuse us of
Speaker 7: punching their name if we could call it Strikeforce Raptor.
Speaker 7: But look, that Task Force in Australia has been very effective.
Speaker 7: They've done outstanding work in terms of disrupting and suppressing
Speaker 7: the gangs over there, and I know that they have
Speaker 7: enormous community support.
Speaker 3: And when you do get a.
Speaker 7: Fleir up of gang violence, the first thing communities are
Speaker 7: asking for is Strikeforce Raptor to arrive. So look, I
Speaker 7: think the intent of the Commissioner, and obviously responding to
Speaker 7: our priorities as a government, is to make sure that
Speaker 7: we start doing maximum damage and interrupting our organized criminal
Speaker 7: groups and gangs in this country.
Speaker 2: And that'll entail targeting and harassing gang members. What would
Speaker 2: that look like.
Speaker 7: Well, they will target them. I mean, our police forces
Speaker 7: world class and it's professional. But they will be focused
Speaker 7: and they will be applying as much pressure on the
Speaker 7: games as they can. They'll be having a very significant
Speaker 7: additional powers that we're giving them that are currently passing
Speaker 7: through Parliament, and we've been very clear as the incoming
Speaker 7: government what our expectation is that is that law abiding
Speaker 7: citizens in this country will have their rights protected over
Speaker 7: and above those that think they're above the law.
Speaker 2: So we're basically just making it really, really uncomfortable to
Speaker 2: be a gang member in this country.
Speaker 7: Yeah, we want it to be so uncomfortable that they
Speaker 7: actually want to leave and try and find a positive
Speaker 7: way of rejoining society again.
Speaker 8: Mike Kennedy is a former detective from the New South
Speaker 8: Wales Police Force. Doctor Kennedy says groups like Strengthforce Rector
Speaker 8: ultimately turn the public against the police.
Speaker 1: People don't stop being members of groups just because they've
Speaker 1: been arrested.
Speaker 5: They go into jail, so they come out, they get
Speaker 5: more of.
Speaker 3: A reason that remain in the group they're in. Story
Speaker 3: you've done, He's driven the problem underground, which is what
Speaker 3: no one yes.
Speaker 2: In terms of Strikeforce Raptor over in Aussie they've been
Speaker 2: called and I quote there's a bunch of thugs in
Speaker 2: blue uniforms that use lawful harassment tactics. Is this a
Speaker 2: concern here and how will our national gang unit be different?
Speaker 7: Well, I'd say it's probably the gangs that are describing
Speaker 7: them like that. From what I understand, they are very
Speaker 7: effective in Australia and I fully back our police service.
Speaker 7: We've got a world class professional police service. That's got
Speaker 7: deep capability and they're up to the job. And our
Speaker 7: expectation is, as I have said as the incoming government,
Speaker 7: is that there is enormous pressure put on gangs that
Speaker 7: their life becomes miserable, that actually they don't want to
Speaker 7: participate in gang lifestyle anymore.
Speaker 3: They don't want to be a.
Speaker 7: Perpetrating violent criminal acts, they don't want to be peddling
Speaker 7: misery and drugs and methamphetamine, that they actually want to
Speaker 7: leave the gang and rejoin society, especially those with families.
Speaker 2: Being tough on crime isn't just a focus here in
Speaker 2: New Zealand. Back in June, a new policy came into
Speaker 2: effect in Australia that once again cracked down on five
Speaker 2: oh one's criminals who had been born in New Zealand
Speaker 2: but spent most of their lives in Australia. Founder of
Speaker 2: Road to Redemption and former five oh one Mark Talleranoah
Speaker 2: joined us at the time to discuss his experiences with
Speaker 2: this system.
Speaker 9: The system it's sort of a blanket approach.
Speaker 10: I believe it when I was amended in twenty fifteen
Speaker 10: that it was brought out to kind of get rid
Speaker 10: of terrorists over in Australia because it came into fution
Speaker 10: under Tony Abbott and they kind of had to come
Speaker 10: up of law that's going to help get rid of
Speaker 10: people who are not citizens through Australia.
Speaker 9: And obviously a lot of Keywies just go over there
Speaker 9: bridging visas and are not citizens, so we kind of
Speaker 9: fall on that kind of collateral. I guess we're the
Speaker 9: ones who've been invested the most, because there's been just
Speaker 9: over three thousand Kiwis have been deported back in.
Speaker 2: New Zealand, just thirty one hundred actually as of January
Speaker 2: this year.
Speaker 8: Yet five oh ones are New Zealand born and criminals
Speaker 8: deported from Australia. Under Scott Morrison's government. They were kicked
Speaker 8: out at a rate of more than one per day.
Speaker 8: One soundbern Easy came into power. Numbers almost halved after
Speaker 8: Australia agreed to a common sense approach and mid mounting
Speaker 8: pressure from then Prime Minister Just Sinder.
Speaker 2: Our dude, you're a former five oh one, hey, yes, yeah,
Speaker 2: And how was that experience for you?
Speaker 9: Well, for me, I had a lot easier than a
Speaker 9: lot of men and women do when they do come
Speaker 9: back and they have nothing and they have no money,
Speaker 9: and they have no jobs, and they have no support network,
Speaker 9: and they have no connection to New Zealand. I was
Speaker 9: very fortunate that my wife was my girlfriend. Time came
Speaker 9: over two weeks before and she kind of got housing,
Speaker 9: had savings, had aka. But even though I had that
Speaker 9: startup seven years ago, because I've been back for seven
Speaker 9: years now.
Speaker 11: It was still I still found it.
Speaker 9: Hard to adjust to the sort of landscape of the
Speaker 9: environment of New Zealand, Like how slow it was compared
Speaker 9: to being in Australia for fourteen years and coming back
Speaker 9: and just trying to adjust to the speed of New Zealand.
Speaker 2: Did you have any family here?
Speaker 10: No, I had no family.
Speaker 9: I'm originally from East Auckland, and I chose to not
Speaker 9: go back to Auckland because I knew what was there
Speaker 9: for me.
Speaker 3: I knew that a lot of people that I knew
Speaker 3: would be back in.
Speaker 9: Those circles and I'll just I guess it'll be just
Speaker 9: too tempting for me to fall back into old traps.
Speaker 3: So my goodfriend at the time sent me.
Speaker 9: A further and map of New Zealand and we decided
Speaker 9: to relocate to crush It.
Speaker 2: You mentioned that you were aware that it would be
Speaker 2: quite easy to fall back into old habits. How difficult
Speaker 2: was it once you were back in New Zealand not
Speaker 2: to do that.
Speaker 3: I guess that's the reason why we did move to Crosshach.
Speaker 12: Because I had no ties to no one, I knew,
Speaker 12: no one, I had no family. It wasn't as easy
Speaker 12: as to link up with people who were still involved
Speaker 12: in that space. So for me it wasn't that challenging
Speaker 12: because that's the reason why we moved down here. But
Speaker 12: I still found myself in those circles because if you
Speaker 12: come from a certain background, it's obviously easy to connect
Speaker 12: and link up with your old networks and people that know,
Speaker 12: mutual friends and stuff like that. So I still found
Speaker 12: myself in those sort of circles, but it was easier
Speaker 12: for me to kind of pull myself away.
Speaker 11: And not get caught up.
Speaker 9: And that's hence the reason why we didn't move back
Speaker 9: to Auckland.
Speaker 2: Yeah, am I able to ask you? Is it gang affiliations?
Speaker 11: Yes, yeah, just gang affiliations, but also yeah, just boys
Speaker 11: that you knew from over in Australia, and we were
Speaker 11: part of that lifestyle and it's just so easy to
Speaker 11: fall into old traps and do old things.
Speaker 9: And that's why I gone to Auckland. And having that
Speaker 9: as a place where everyone goes through it kind of
Speaker 9: sets out our people up in failure because they're going
Speaker 9: to a place where.
Speaker 12: All they know is what they know in Australia why
Speaker 12: they got the ported for We.
Speaker 3: Get sent here with very little.
Speaker 9: And you get a couple hundred bucks and you get
Speaker 9: better than on the back and you get told to.
Speaker 3: Do your best.
Speaker 2: While politicians are focused on gangs and ram raiders. Recent
Speaker 2: surveys have shown that one in ten New Zealanders are
Speaker 2: believed to have experienced some type of fraud. We caught
Speaker 2: up with enzat Herald investigative reporter Matt Knippett about this
Speaker 2: in September.
Speaker 13: The only thing thing about financial crime is often at
Speaker 13: crime of consent, guns aren't being drawn and people handing
Speaker 13: over their wallets or emptying their passes. These crimes are
Speaker 13: committed by people who convinced them to hand it over,
Speaker 13: usually for.
Speaker 3: An envali untrustful reason.
Speaker 13: You know, they say they'll invest in somewhere, would in
Speaker 13: fact it's just going to pay off the other investors
Speaker 13: that want to get out. It's upon this scheme, or
Speaker 13: it's just being totally most appropriated. So that level of trust,
Speaker 13: I mean, this is why they call convent convent, because
Speaker 13: they're confidence met.
Speaker 3: I haven't yet met.
Speaker 13: At Fordster who wasn't charismatic. I mean, you've got to
Speaker 13: be good to convince people hand over the hard and pass. Then,
Speaker 13: of course that does complicate things because often people don't
Speaker 13: want to acknowledge that and tricked and lost money. Certainly
Speaker 13: they don't want anyone else to know that they've been
Speaker 13: foolish or taken in. There's a certain amount of shame.
Speaker 4: Nationally, there'll be hundreds of cases a day being reported
Speaker 4: to police, and we know that not all thoughts reported,
Speaker 4: so the scale of it is truly massive.
Speaker 3: I never thought it never happened to me. I was
Speaker 3: pretty upset. I didn't know which way to turn.
Speaker 2: That money saved up with my granddaughter and my son
Speaker 2: and his wife.
Speaker 4: So how much money did you lose in this few
Speaker 4: hours and time?
Speaker 3: And dearly?
Speaker 13: There are commercial consequences. You know, if your bank realizes
Speaker 13: that you know, you've lost a million dollars of your
Speaker 13: businesses money, they might want to take a closer look
Speaker 13: at your finances to make sure you can replace. There's
Speaker 13: lots of seven centers not to report the sort of crime,
Speaker 13: which is the first big hurdle. The second book hurdle
Speaker 13: we often come across is money that goes offshore, and
Speaker 13: you know, we live in a globalized world. People can
Speaker 13: set up bank accounts overseas. There are supposed to be
Speaker 13: sort of anti money laundering checks in place to ensure
Speaker 13: that valanci institutions know who are setting up accounts for
Speaker 13: their institutions and where it's been transferred to. But once
Speaker 13: money goes offshore, and it's extraordinarily difficult to track, lit
Speaker 13: alone recover. Once people realize that's happened to them, often
Speaker 13: they can't see any prospect of getting their money back.
Speaker 13: So why would you go through, you know, all the pain,
Speaker 13: that torment of a criminal investigation which you know, in
Speaker 13: all likelihood probably won't even get to trial, and either
Speaker 13: of it it's going to drag out for years. A
Speaker 13: lot of people just want to cut their losses, and
Speaker 13: the losses are indeed quite substantial and sort of at
Speaker 13: a national level.
Speaker 2: When we talk about fraud in New Zealand, how many
Speaker 2: millions of dollars are kiwis losing each year.
Speaker 13: It's sort of a very fungible term fraud. I mean,
Speaker 13: if we sort of look at the sort of the
Speaker 13: economic costs of crime might be a good way to
Speaker 13: look at it. There were some studies that maybe it
Speaker 13: was about ten billion a year. However, it's worth noting
Speaker 13: that the vast majority of that, probably seven or eight billion,
Speaker 13: is just text to avoidance people not paying the tax
Speaker 13: they're required to, either just not paying it and you know,
Speaker 13: when the bills come due or sort of massage in
Speaker 13: their accounts to make a look as though they don't
Speaker 13: need to pay as much. IOD does have a fairly
Speaker 13: big investigations unit, and they unally do about they proscrit
Speaker 13: about a billion dollars of that a year, so there
Speaker 13: have been some researchers. That's the amount that's messed us
Speaker 13: considerably more, and we break it further down. I know,
Speaker 13: it's a lot in the news a moment sort of
Speaker 13: ram raids and retail crime that industry lobby reckons. That's
Speaker 13: about two and a half billion a year. So yes,
Speaker 13: a very big number, but still you're looking at only
Speaker 13: a third the amount of X that's going with thing
Speaker 13: and then going way further down, you know, they're sort
Speaker 13: of the scams and frauds are probably in the three
Speaker 13: to four hundred million dollar range, but that number can
Speaker 13: bounce around a lot. As I mentioned before, individual cases
Speaker 13: can run to one hundred million, which can really skew
Speaker 13: each year's figures. And finally, something that does get a
Speaker 13: fair bit of coverage, but it's worth mentioning purely because
Speaker 13: it's meniscule. Is a welfare fraud which you know, only
Speaker 13: about two or three million dollars a year, if that
Speaker 13: has prosecuted each year, it's a comparative pittance, and you know,
Speaker 13: in some total, just a fraction of one of the
Speaker 13: sort of ponding type schemes that might get uncovered in
Speaker 13: a year.
Speaker 2: Regardless of what type of crime you commit, most roads
Speaker 2: in our justice system lead towards our prisons. Earlier this year,
Speaker 2: a scathing report from our going chief Ombardsman Peter Bosher,
Speaker 2: slammed our country's prison system as unproductive and unwilling to change.
Speaker 2: In response, in April, I spoke to Deputy Commissioner of
Speaker 2: Prison's New Bills to get his response to those comments
Speaker 2: and get insight into the state of corrections.
Speaker 1: I respectfully disagree with that because having worked in Corrections
Speaker 1: for a considerable amount of time. I know that there's
Speaker 1: certain things that, yes, do take some time because you're
Speaker 1: dealing with law, and changing law and regulations has a
Speaker 1: process which we have to follow. But there are occasions
Speaker 1: when it's in house policy that we can and do change,
Speaker 1: you know, quite rapidly, where we possibly can. So look
Speaker 1: at the mixed bag, But I don't agree that that
Speaker 1: definition respectfully covers everything.
Speaker 3: That we do.
Speaker 2: He did say that Corrections has a culture issue. Would
Speaker 2: you agree with that?
Speaker 3: No, I don't.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, if you look back at the
Speaker 1: things that we have done over recent years, I think
Speaker 1: we've got a culture that is getting healthier.
Speaker 3: All the time.
Speaker 1: You know, if you even if you look back over
Speaker 1: the COVID years, you know what what we were able
Speaker 1: to achieve back through then when we were running you know,
Speaker 1: extremely restrictive environments. We wouldn't have been able to achieve
Speaker 1: that safely had we had an unsafe or an unhealthy culture.
Speaker 1: Do we need to get better in areas? I think absolutely.
Speaker 1: We door, which our chief executive has has recently launched
Speaker 1: back in early April, is a is a sign of
Speaker 1: his intent to change our organizational structure in order to
Speaker 1: you know, be less bureaucratic, where we can be more agile,
Speaker 1: where we can be more connected with our external agencies
Speaker 1: and partners, and and more connected you know, within within
Speaker 1: our own department as well. So you know, that is
Speaker 1: a reflecting I think of a culture that is listening,
Speaker 1: learning all the time, but we are also dealing with
Speaker 1: factors which are often outside of our control, such as
Speaker 1: you know, we've now got a arising prison population.
Speaker 3: We don't dictate that.
Speaker 1: That's dictated through through other parts of the justice sector
Speaker 1: of policing and courts and sentencing, etc. You know, we
Speaker 1: have come through a very difficult time with staffing which
Speaker 1: has severely impacted us to be able to carry out
Speaker 1: our full range of activities in many.
Speaker 3: Of our areas.
Speaker 1: But we're getting through that and we've got a we've
Speaker 1: now got an increasing number of applications of staff wanted
Speaker 1: to come and work with us, which is very very
Speaker 1: pleasing to see.
Speaker 2: It was particularly critical of Auckland Prison, saying not much,
Speaker 2: if anything, has changed since COVID. He used the phrase
Speaker 2: like a people's storage unit unit and the words containment
Speaker 2: and management. Is this fair?
Speaker 3: I think the reflection on all.
Speaker 1: Look, let's not forget that Auckland Prison is our only
Speaker 1: men's maximum.
Speaker 3: Security prison in the country, so.
Speaker 1: Not all prisoners who are there are maximum I accept that.
Speaker 1: And you know, for those people who have never been
Speaker 1: to Auckland Prison who don't understand the layout, you've effectively
Speaker 1: got about five different sections to the prison. You've got
Speaker 1: some lower security, minimum security areas, a high security area,
Speaker 1: and then the new maximum security build. The maximum security
Speaker 1: side of the prison holds the most dangerous and often
Speaker 1: difficult people that we manage in the entire prison system.
Speaker 1: In order to do that, you've got to do that safely,
Speaker 1: with the correct staffing numbers, and you've got to do
Speaker 1: it in a way that understands all the risks that
Speaker 1: you face every day. And risk is dynamic. It changes.
Speaker 1: You know, what you face in the morning may not
Speaker 1: be what you're facing the afternoon. It doesn't take an
Speaker 1: awful lot for the situation on a unit to change rapidly.
Speaker 1: You know, you move in a new gang member, you
Speaker 1: move out a new gang member. You might have an
Speaker 1: incident that somebody gets a bad phone call, etc. That
Speaker 1: changes the dynamics of that unit significantly. So you know,
Speaker 1: I do accept that the pace of change at Auckland
Speaker 1: Prison in some areas has been slower than what many
Speaker 1: would have preferred, and that's been indicated in the on
Speaker 1: Bodsman's comments, But there is context to be applied to that.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's through a resistance to change or
Speaker 1: reluctance to change. I think it is through carefully considering
Speaker 1: what we are dealing with and making sure that we
Speaker 1: do it safely, because ultimately our staff deserve to be
Speaker 1: safe as well as the prisoners and the public need
Speaker 1: to be safe, which is our duty.
Speaker 2: A report from the Office of the Inspectorate, released just
Speaker 2: yesterday shows for up to nine months up until July
Speaker 2: last year, prisoners in three units were denied their minimum
Speaker 2: entitlement to an hour out of their cell every day,
Speaker 2: but instead every second day. For one hundred and seven men,
Speaker 2: this regime lasted more than one hundred days, and for
Speaker 2: twenty seven them more than two hundred days. Is this
Speaker 2: good enough?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 1: And I don't think anybody would sit down here and
Speaker 1: try and argue that that's okay. It's not okay. But again,
Speaker 1: you know, for the exact same reasons that I've just
Speaker 1: given you, context needs to be applied over there, because
Speaker 1: you just cannot do things if you don't have the
Speaker 1: requisite amount of staff. So what the jail was dealing
Speaker 1: with at the time was what is the best that
Speaker 1: they could do given the circumstances that they were dealing
Speaker 1: within those three units. Bearing in mind the rest of
Speaker 1: the jail was operating by and large, okay, but in
Speaker 1: these three units where we are dealing, like I said,
Speaker 1: with some of the most difficult and disruptive and dangerous prisoners,
Speaker 1: you know, you have to be exceptionally cautious in what
Speaker 1: you do.
Speaker 3: It is it is.
Speaker 1: Something that you know, I don't think you'll find a
Speaker 1: single member of staff who was happy with the arrangements
Speaker 1: that needed to be put in place, but neither would
Speaker 1: they be happy if we were asking them to unlock
Speaker 1: short you know, we've only got a certain amount of
Speaker 1: space within those units to a exercise and associate prisoners.
Speaker 1: So you've got to do that with the right amount
Speaker 1: of staff. It takes some of these prisoners. You have
Speaker 1: three staff to move one prisoner. Some require four, sometimes five,
Speaker 1: depending on the level of risk that they pose. So no,
Speaker 1: it is not ideal, and nobody in this department is
Speaker 1: sitting here going look that was okay, it's not okay.
Speaker 1: Thankfully though, we are now seeing our FTU numbers are
Speaker 1: awkling back to a very healthy state. Our visits are
Speaker 1: now opening up again. I was talking to the site
Speaker 1: this morning. The consultation with the unions and those discussions
Speaker 1: are coming to an end and we believe that we
Speaker 1: should be operating visits back as normal in those areas
Speaker 1: now by the end of the month, which is great
Speaker 1: and that's what everybody wants to see.
Speaker 2: In terms of being committed to change within corrections. The
Speaker 2: next time, say the ombudsman walks through Auckland Prison and
Speaker 2: he comes out the other end and he says, yes,
Speaker 2: it has change. I can see that there is change,
Speaker 2: or be I can't see anything happening here. Would you
Speaker 2: stake your job on him walking out that prison saying
Speaker 2: something's happening?
Speaker 3: Look, I think you.
Speaker 1: Know, those those are questions I don't enter into because
Speaker 1: I think it's you know, it doesn't get you anywhere.
Speaker 1: My role is to make sure that sites that I'm
Speaker 1: responsible for or supported and they can do their job
Speaker 1: for the best of their ability.
Speaker 2: Would you be confident that Bosher walks through and says,
Speaker 2: change is happening.
Speaker 3: Well, right now, change is happening in Aubland prison.
Speaker 2: He doesn't think so.
Speaker 1: Well, I've just spent I've spent most of March there
Speaker 1: covering for a colleague. You and I can tell you
Speaker 1: now that you know the change is significant.
Speaker 3: Are we there yet? No, we're not. We're not out
Speaker 3: of the woods. But change is happening.
Speaker 2: That's it for this compilation episode of The Front Page.
Speaker 2: You can read more about the stories featured in this
Speaker 2: episode and extensive news coverage at ends at Herald dot
Speaker 2: co dot z. The Front Page is produced by Ethan
Speaker 2: Sills and Richard Martin, who is also our sound engineer,
Speaker 2: along with Paddy Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The
Speaker 2: Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,
Speaker 2: and tune in tomorrow for another compilation episode, taking a
Speaker 2: look back at some of the year's biggest stories,