1
00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:06,200
Speaker 1: Gilda.

2
00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:10,119
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a compilation episode of

3
00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,800
Speaker 2: The Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the New

4
00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:20,960
Speaker 2: Zealand Herald. Law and order is always a hot topic

5
00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,960
Speaker 2: of debate amongst politicians. The Coalition government was elected in

6
00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,760
Speaker 2: part on the back of years of ram raids and

7
00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:31,680
Speaker 2: violent robberies post COVID. The last twelve months has seen

8
00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,600
Speaker 2: delivery on promises to bring back boot camps for young offenders,

9
00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,560
Speaker 2: a crackdown on gangs, and the return of three strikes legislation.

10
00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:43,960
Speaker 2: Today on the Front Page, we'll be revisiting the many

11
00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,680
Speaker 2: conversations we've had about crime and the justice system in

12
00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,200
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, looking at how effective some of those

13
00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,720
Speaker 2: policies are and what we could be doing better. First, though,

14
00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,480
Speaker 2: to set the scene, let's revisit our conversation from July

15
00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:03,240
Speaker 2: with Herald's Scene reporter Derek Chang about what data tells

16
00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,319
Speaker 2: us about how much crime is happening and how unsafe

17
00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:08,040
Speaker 2: we feel.

18
00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,760
Speaker 3: You know, there are lots of different measures for crime.

19
00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:22,200
Speaker 4: There's no definitive crime data, and when you're looking at

20
00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,039
Speaker 4: different crime data sources, the best thing is to look

21
00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,440
Speaker 4: at the trends over time. So you know, the latest

22
00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,360
Speaker 4: Crime and Victim Survey, for example, it includes unreported crime.

23
00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:34,959
Speaker 4: You know, a lot of crime is not reported, roughly

24
00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,880
Speaker 4: three quarters of it, so it's considered one of.

25
00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:38,240
Speaker 3: The better crime statistics.

26
00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,240
Speaker 4: And if you look at that survey, crime has been

27
00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,479
Speaker 4: relatively steady since twenty eighteen, which was the first year

28
00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,840
Speaker 4: of the survey, So about seventy percent of us say

29
00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,279
Speaker 4: that we live crime free lives. But a different measure

30
00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,280
Speaker 4: there on feeling unsafe. There's been a big increase in

31
00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,000
Speaker 4: those of us who feel unsafe. That's gone from nine

32
00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,880
Speaker 4: to fifteen percent over the last six years, with the

33
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,559
Speaker 4: biggest jump occurring between twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three.

34
00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,640
Speaker 4: And it's also for victims and non victims. So there's

35
00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,120
Speaker 4: a little weird thing going on there. But it's not

36
00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,320
Speaker 4: uncommon for feelings of safety to not necessarily reflect the

37
00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,920
Speaker 4: amount of crime that's going on, and there's lots of

38
00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:17,560
Speaker 4: factors that are potentially at play there.

39
00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:19,400
Speaker 3: So the proportion of Asian.

40
00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,560
Speaker 4: New Zealanders, for example, feeling unsafe doubled from eleven to

41
00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,840
Speaker 4: twenty two percent over that time, and the surveys suggested

42
00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,760
Speaker 4: that racism during COVID might have contributed to that what does.

43
00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:30,440
Speaker 3: That mean for the government.

44
00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,720
Speaker 4: While the steady rate of crime doesn't really fit with

45
00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,799
Speaker 4: Luxin's narrative that crime is out of control, he much

46
00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,760
Speaker 4: rather prefers to cherry pickers crime data to suit his message,

47
00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,040
Speaker 4: and that, to be fair, is not uncommon for politicians,

48
00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,040
Speaker 4: And those results also don't really sit with Luxen's lines

49
00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,359
Speaker 4: about h weis don't feel safe in that homes. He's

50
00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:52,680
Speaker 4: right that there's been an increase in feelings of not

51
00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,600
Speaker 4: being safe, but I don't think anyone would take fifteen

52
00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,679
Speaker 4: percent and just broadly say what key we don't feel

53
00:02:58,720 --> 00:02:59,280
Speaker 4: in their homes.

54
00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,680
Speaker 2: It's interesting seeing the police data, hey, when it comes

55
00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,600
Speaker 2: out and those victim surveys, because you're right, when you

56
00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,160
Speaker 2: look at it on the outset, you can't really see

57
00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,040
Speaker 2: any obvious trends. But if you choose to zoom in

58
00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,800
Speaker 2: on specifics, as in, you know, a youth crime for instance,

59
00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:21,640
Speaker 2: over this period these ages, you can if you zoom

60
00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,959
Speaker 2: in and pinpoint some statistics, you can say that during

61
00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:30,240
Speaker 2: this specific time youth crime got more serious. But like

62
00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,760
Speaker 2: you say, if you zoom out, then it's a completely

63
00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:33,400
Speaker 2: different picture.

64
00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:37,080
Speaker 4: Well, I think that people's experience of crime is often

65
00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,400
Speaker 4: a different picture entirely because if you are a victim

66
00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,640
Speaker 4: of crime, and that will affect you and then your

67
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:48,160
Speaker 4: household and you know, your wider circle. So you know,

68
00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,880
Speaker 4: you're right that youth crime has been ticking up in

69
00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,920
Speaker 4: recent years, and that's particularly prevalent in things like robberies

70
00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,080
Speaker 4: and burglaries and theft, and you know that is in

71
00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,120
Speaker 4: the statistics as well well. But you know, even if

72
00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,840
Speaker 4: overall crime is quite steady, how people experiencing it and

73
00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,480
Speaker 4: how that goes through the grapevine the society is very different. So,

74
00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,240
Speaker 4: like I said before, it is not that uncommon for

75
00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,720
Speaker 4: people to feel less safe, even if the crime data

76
00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,960
Speaker 4: doesn't really show that we are actually less safe.

77
00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,440
Speaker 5: Look, we're seeing a lot in the media and coming

78
00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,160
Speaker 5: up from police about, you know, a recent incidence of

79
00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,960
Speaker 5: sort of increasingly younger people doing increasingly severe offending. The

80
00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,479
Speaker 5: stats over the last few years actually show overall that

81
00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,640
Speaker 5: youth crime offending numbers are decreasing, but what we're seeing

82
00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:40,560
Speaker 5: is sort of worse offending.

83
00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,560
Speaker 2: What challenge does it create for the government when people

84
00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,720
Speaker 2: are more afraid of crime than actually experiencing it.

85
00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,000
Speaker 4: Well, I think you know a lot of politics, as

86
00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,800
Speaker 4: retail politics, you have to respond to what the perceptions are.

87
00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,960
Speaker 4: So you know, it suits the Prime Minister Christopher Luxeen

88
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,440
Speaker 4: to say that crime is out of control and that

89
00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,160
Speaker 4: people don't feel safe in their homes because that resonates

90
00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,080
Speaker 4: with people, and then he can come in and say, well,

91
00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,000
Speaker 4: this is our law and order agender and we.

92
00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:15,039
Speaker 3: Know these things are popular.

93
00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,960
Speaker 4: So when we say we're going to crack down on gangs, yes,

94
00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,240
Speaker 4: gang membership has gone up, largely because of the five

95
00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,680
Speaker 4: oh one departies from Australia, so we're going to do

96
00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,120
Speaker 4: something about that. Youth crime is up, so you know

97
00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,560
Speaker 4: we've got our boot camps, We've campaigned on them. It

98
00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,680
Speaker 4: doesn't matter what the evidence says. In particular, because we

99
00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:34,680
Speaker 4: see a problem, we all know there's a problem when

100
00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,359
Speaker 4: we're going to do something about it. Three strikes, longer sentences,

101
00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:40,880
Speaker 4: these are all things that resonate with the public. So

102
00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,560
Speaker 4: it's a common political strategy to respond to the perceptions

103
00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,400
Speaker 4: of what's going on out there, and this government's no different.

104
00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:55,160
Speaker 2: Really, young offenders have been in the target of this government,

105
00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,880
Speaker 2: with boot camps being reintroduced despite previous attempts by early

106
00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:05,760
Speaker 2: national governments not delivering shining results. In October, a rooftop

107
00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:10,279
Speaker 2: protest by thirteen offenders at a youth justice facility raised

108
00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:15,000
Speaker 2: the question once again on if we're handling these cases properly.

109
00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,960
Speaker 2: We spoke to youth worker and founder of Kickback Youth

110
00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,800
Speaker 2: Development Aaron Hendry to get insight into the lives of

111
00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:24,760
Speaker 2: our youngest offenders.

112
00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,920
Speaker 6: When we have this conversation that we first center and

113
00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,360
Speaker 6: take a step back and understand who these children are

114
00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,720
Speaker 6: that are in these residential facilities. You know, these are

115
00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,680
Speaker 6: young people that they're honesty is they've experienced some of

116
00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,760
Speaker 6: the worst that New Zealand society has to offer. You know,

117
00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,839
Speaker 6: often they were victims first before they've gone on to

118
00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,919
Speaker 6: cause harm in the community. They've been physically harmed, mentally, emotionally,

119
00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,360
Speaker 6: they have been let down by us as a community.

120
00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,320
Speaker 6: Often they would have experienced poverty, homelessness. You know, some

121
00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,839
Speaker 6: will have disabilities and severe mental health needs, and we'll

122
00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:02,799
Speaker 6: have experience some really significant trauma. You know, the evidence

123
00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,479
Speaker 6: backs that up. And we look kind of globally around

124
00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:07,479
Speaker 6: the world, you know, where we see young people coming

125
00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,320
Speaker 6: into confidence for the law and then kind of being

126
00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,000
Speaker 6: funneled into these systems. These are the driving factors, the

127
00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:14,720
Speaker 6: reasons behind that offending in the first place, and so

128
00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:16,640
Speaker 6: it's really important to understand that. And then when we

129
00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,120
Speaker 6: see behavior like this, it's really easy to look at

130
00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,080
Speaker 6: a picture or see an image and think, oh, you know,

131
00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,400
Speaker 6: they're just acting out. But there's a reason why they

132
00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:26,840
Speaker 6: are up on that roof for in that situation, and

133
00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,000
Speaker 6: often it's coming from a space of the trauma and

134
00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,320
Speaker 6: pain and a young person or a child that's not

135
00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,880
Speaker 6: being hurt and doesn't feel like they're getting their most

136
00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:34,880
Speaker 6: basic needs met.

137
00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:36,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's what we have to remember

138
00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,200
Speaker 2: as well with these kind of situations. Hey, that these

139
00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,520
Speaker 2: kids society's most neglected. Can you tell me a little

140
00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,280
Speaker 2: bit more about these kids and what kind of lives

141
00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:46,080
Speaker 2: they may have led.

142
00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:46,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

143
00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,600
Speaker 6: I mean when we look at the data and the

144
00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,200
Speaker 6: research around young people that end up in these sort

145
00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,040
Speaker 6: of facilities, you know, some of them have slept rough

146
00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,920
Speaker 6: since they were young. You know that home hasn't been safe,

147
00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:58,960
Speaker 6: and so they've ended up sleeping on our streets. Think

148
00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,360
Speaker 6: about how unsafe you must have to be or feel

149
00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,920
Speaker 6: as a child to think that sleeping outside, you know,

150
00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:06,520
Speaker 6: on busy Queen Street was a safer option for you.

151
00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,600
Speaker 6: In some cases, you know, they're coming from Farno who

152
00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,480
Speaker 6: are really struggling, you know, families that really love their

153
00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,080
Speaker 6: kids and yet are doing impossible things, trying to keep

154
00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,480
Speaker 6: a roof over the heads, working you know, multiple jobs

155
00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,720
Speaker 6: and just don't have the time and the resources they

156
00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:22,800
Speaker 6: need to really care for their young people well. And

157
00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,480
Speaker 6: you know, as a community we haven't supported them. Some

158
00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,360
Speaker 6: of these young people will have disabilities and will have

159
00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,440
Speaker 6: significant you know, mental health needs and be using substances

160
00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,360
Speaker 6: as a way to cope, and families may be struggling

161
00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,120
Speaker 6: to manage and support that without the resources and the

162
00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:39,959
Speaker 6: layers of community around them to best look after them

163
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,200
Speaker 6: and care for them while trying to deal with this

164
00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,120
Speaker 6: you know crisis called poverty and housing and security that

165
00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,360
Speaker 6: many of our Farnam are dealing with. The Other thing

166
00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,679
Speaker 6: we know about young people that end up in these

167
00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,880
Speaker 6: facilities is that often the community was aware that they

168
00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,960
Speaker 6: needed help, they were aware that their families needed help,

169
00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,000
Speaker 6: and as a community we haven't had the resources to

170
00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,679
Speaker 6: actually come down support them care for them long before

171
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:06,920
Speaker 6: they ever came into conflict with the law and ended

172
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,319
Speaker 6: up in the justice system. There's a lot that can

173
00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,080
Speaker 6: be said, and there is a lot that is said

174
00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,040
Speaker 6: about our young people, But I think the thing that

175
00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,679
Speaker 6: we need to fundamentally focus on and remember is that

176
00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,120
Speaker 6: these children are here because of our failure as a

177
00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,240
Speaker 6: society and as a country. We have not valued the

178
00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,840
Speaker 6: lives of these young people well enough. We haven't cared

179
00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,360
Speaker 6: for them, we haven't ensured we build societies and communities

180
00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,440
Speaker 6: that can provide them with the resources they need, and

181
00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,920
Speaker 6: as a result, they have entered into these systems. I

182
00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:35,480
Speaker 6: think that's saying that we really need to keep front

183
00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:37,760
Speaker 6: of mind when we're having a conversation around young people

184
00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:47,079
Speaker 6: in the justice system.

185
00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,800
Speaker 2: Police Minister Mark Mitchell is one of the politicians responsible

186
00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,120
Speaker 2: for overseeing law and order in this country. He joined

187
00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,599
Speaker 2: us in May in the wake of the government announcing

188
00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,280
Speaker 2: a new task force designed to make life difficult for

189
00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:07,240
Speaker 2: gangs in this country. National has been eyeing up a

190
00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,680
Speaker 2: unit like this for years. Hey, and it's in reference

191
00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:14,000
Speaker 2: to the New South Wales's Strikeforce Raptor. First off, what

192
00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:15,920
Speaker 2: do you make of that name? Why didn't you call

193
00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:17,440
Speaker 2: us Strikeforce Raptor.

194
00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,320
Speaker 7: Well, I'm sure that the ausies would excuse us of

195
00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,200
Speaker 7: punching their name if we could call it Strikeforce Raptor.

196
00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,280
Speaker 7: But look, that Task Force in Australia has been very effective.

197
00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,920
Speaker 7: They've done outstanding work in terms of disrupting and suppressing

198
00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:32,520
Speaker 7: the gangs over there, and I know that they have

199
00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:33,920
Speaker 7: enormous community support.

200
00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:35,360
Speaker 3: And when you do get a.

201
00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,960
Speaker 7: Fleir up of gang violence, the first thing communities are

202
00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,640
Speaker 7: asking for is Strikeforce Raptor to arrive. So look, I

203
00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:45,120
Speaker 7: think the intent of the Commissioner, and obviously responding to

204
00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,640
Speaker 7: our priorities as a government, is to make sure that

205
00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,440
Speaker 7: we start doing maximum damage and interrupting our organized criminal

206
00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:53,880
Speaker 7: groups and gangs in this country.

207
00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,440
Speaker 2: And that'll entail targeting and harassing gang members. What would

208
00:10:58,440 --> 00:10:59,040
Speaker 2: that look like.

209
00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,000
Speaker 7: Well, they will target them. I mean, our police forces

210
00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,400
Speaker 7: world class and it's professional. But they will be focused

211
00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:07,920
Speaker 7: and they will be applying as much pressure on the

212
00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,720
Speaker 7: games as they can. They'll be having a very significant

213
00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,080
Speaker 7: additional powers that we're giving them that are currently passing

214
00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,680
Speaker 7: through Parliament, and we've been very clear as the incoming

215
00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,959
Speaker 7: government what our expectation is that is that law abiding

216
00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,640
Speaker 7: citizens in this country will have their rights protected over

217
00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,200
Speaker 7: and above those that think they're above the law.

218
00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,640
Speaker 2: So we're basically just making it really, really uncomfortable to

219
00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:29,160
Speaker 2: be a gang member in this country.

220
00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, we want it to be so uncomfortable that they

221
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,559
Speaker 7: actually want to leave and try and find a positive

222
00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:35,000
Speaker 7: way of rejoining society again.

223
00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,920
Speaker 8: Mike Kennedy is a former detective from the New South

224
00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,960
Speaker 8: Wales Police Force. Doctor Kennedy says groups like Strengthforce Rector

225
00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,640
Speaker 8: ultimately turn the public against the police.

226
00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,000
Speaker 1: People don't stop being members of groups just because they've

227
00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:51,720
Speaker 1: been arrested.

228
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,080
Speaker 5: They go into jail, so they come out, they get

229
00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:54,480
Speaker 5: more of.

230
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,720
Speaker 3: A reason that remain in the group they're in. Story

231
00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,200
Speaker 3: you've done, He's driven the problem underground, which is what

232
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:00,320
Speaker 3: no one yes.

233
00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,640
Speaker 2: In terms of Strikeforce Raptor over in Aussie they've been

234
00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,440
Speaker 2: called and I quote there's a bunch of thugs in

235
00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:13,120
Speaker 2: blue uniforms that use lawful harassment tactics. Is this a

236
00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,240
Speaker 2: concern here and how will our national gang unit be different?

237
00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:18,840
Speaker 7: Well, I'd say it's probably the gangs that are describing

238
00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,240
Speaker 7: them like that. From what I understand, they are very

239
00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,640
Speaker 7: effective in Australia and I fully back our police service.

240
00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,839
Speaker 7: We've got a world class professional police service. That's got

241
00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,640
Speaker 7: deep capability and they're up to the job. And our

242
00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,960
Speaker 7: expectation is, as I have said as the incoming government,

243
00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:36,440
Speaker 7: is that there is enormous pressure put on gangs that

244
00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,400
Speaker 7: their life becomes miserable, that actually they don't want to

245
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,200
Speaker 7: participate in gang lifestyle anymore.

246
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:42,719
Speaker 3: They don't want to be a.

247
00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:46,640
Speaker 7: Perpetrating violent criminal acts, they don't want to be peddling

248
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,800
Speaker 7: misery and drugs and methamphetamine, that they actually want to

249
00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,680
Speaker 7: leave the gang and rejoin society, especially those with families.

250
00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,400
Speaker 2: Being tough on crime isn't just a focus here in

251
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,880
Speaker 2: New Zealand. Back in June, a new policy came into

252
00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:08,040
Speaker 2: effect in Australia that once again cracked down on five

253
00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,439
Speaker 2: oh one's criminals who had been born in New Zealand

254
00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,280
Speaker 2: but spent most of their lives in Australia. Founder of

255
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,680
Speaker 2: Road to Redemption and former five oh one Mark Talleranoah

256
00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,600
Speaker 2: joined us at the time to discuss his experiences with

257
00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:28,559
Speaker 2: this system.

258
00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,280
Speaker 9: The system it's sort of a blanket approach.

259
00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,720
Speaker 10: I believe it when I was amended in twenty fifteen

260
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,040
Speaker 10: that it was brought out to kind of get rid

261
00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,760
Speaker 10: of terrorists over in Australia because it came into fution

262
00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,079
Speaker 10: under Tony Abbott and they kind of had to come

263
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:47,760
Speaker 10: up of law that's going to help get rid of

264
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:49,800
Speaker 10: people who are not citizens through Australia.

265
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,320
Speaker 9: And obviously a lot of Keywies just go over there

266
00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:58,040
Speaker 9: bridging visas and are not citizens, so we kind of

267
00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,600
Speaker 9: fall on that kind of collateral. I guess we're the

268
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:03,960
Speaker 9: ones who've been invested the most, because there's been just

269
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,839
Speaker 9: over three thousand Kiwis have been deported back in.

270
00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,720
Speaker 2: New Zealand, just thirty one hundred actually as of January

271
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:11,319
Speaker 2: this year.

272
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,600
Speaker 8: Yet five oh ones are New Zealand born and criminals

273
00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,880
Speaker 8: deported from Australia. Under Scott Morrison's government. They were kicked

274
00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,000
Speaker 8: out at a rate of more than one per day.

275
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,880
Speaker 8: One soundbern Easy came into power. Numbers almost halved after

276
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,120
Speaker 8: Australia agreed to a common sense approach and mid mounting

277
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,640
Speaker 8: pressure from then Prime Minister Just Sinder.

278
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:40,360
Speaker 2: Our dude, you're a former five oh one, hey, yes, yeah,

279
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:41,800
Speaker 2: And how was that experience for you?

280
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,800
Speaker 9: Well, for me, I had a lot easier than a

281
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,040
Speaker 9: lot of men and women do when they do come

282
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,040
Speaker 9: back and they have nothing and they have no money,

283
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,200
Speaker 9: and they have no jobs, and they have no support network,

284
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,240
Speaker 9: and they have no connection to New Zealand. I was

285
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,560
Speaker 9: very fortunate that my wife was my girlfriend. Time came

286
00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,920
Speaker 9: over two weeks before and she kind of got housing,

287
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,160
Speaker 9: had savings, had aka. But even though I had that

288
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,960
Speaker 9: startup seven years ago, because I've been back for seven

289
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:06,560
Speaker 9: years now.

290
00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,080
Speaker 11: It was still I still found it.

291
00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,480
Speaker 9: Hard to adjust to the sort of landscape of the

292
00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,240
Speaker 9: environment of New Zealand, Like how slow it was compared

293
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,240
Speaker 9: to being in Australia for fourteen years and coming back

294
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,640
Speaker 9: and just trying to adjust to the speed of New Zealand.

295
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:22,360
Speaker 2: Did you have any family here?

296
00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:23,840
Speaker 10: No, I had no family.

297
00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,160
Speaker 9: I'm originally from East Auckland, and I chose to not

298
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,080
Speaker 9: go back to Auckland because I knew what was there

299
00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:30,360
Speaker 9: for me.

300
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,160
Speaker 3: I knew that a lot of people that I knew

301
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:33,320
Speaker 3: would be back in.

302
00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,640
Speaker 9: Those circles and I'll just I guess it'll be just

303
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:37,960
Speaker 9: too tempting for me to fall back into old traps.

304
00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,560
Speaker 3: So my goodfriend at the time sent me.

305
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,800
Speaker 9: A further and map of New Zealand and we decided

306
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,760
Speaker 9: to relocate to crush It.

307
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,120
Speaker 2: You mentioned that you were aware that it would be

308
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,720
Speaker 2: quite easy to fall back into old habits. How difficult

309
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,040
Speaker 2: was it once you were back in New Zealand not

310
00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:56,680
Speaker 2: to do that.

311
00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,200
Speaker 3: I guess that's the reason why we did move to Crosshach.

312
00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,360
Speaker 12: Because I had no ties to no one, I knew,

313
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,480
Speaker 12: no one, I had no family. It wasn't as easy

314
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,200
Speaker 12: as to link up with people who were still involved

315
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:12,200
Speaker 12: in that space. So for me it wasn't that challenging

316
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,360
Speaker 12: because that's the reason why we moved down here. But

317
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,360
Speaker 12: I still found myself in those circles because if you

318
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,400
Speaker 12: come from a certain background, it's obviously easy to connect

319
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,800
Speaker 12: and link up with your old networks and people that know,

320
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,560
Speaker 12: mutual friends and stuff like that. So I still found

321
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,720
Speaker 12: myself in those sort of circles, but it was easier

322
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:31,880
Speaker 12: for me to kind of pull myself away.

323
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:32,600
Speaker 11: And not get caught up.

324
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:34,720
Speaker 9: And that's hence the reason why we didn't move back

325
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:35,240
Speaker 9: to Auckland.

326
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, am I able to ask you? Is it gang affiliations?

327
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:43,000
Speaker 11: Yes, yeah, just gang affiliations, but also yeah, just boys

328
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,880
Speaker 11: that you knew from over in Australia, and we were

329
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,560
Speaker 11: part of that lifestyle and it's just so easy to

330
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:50,520
Speaker 11: fall into old traps and do old things.

331
00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,640
Speaker 9: And that's why I gone to Auckland. And having that

332
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,520
Speaker 9: as a place where everyone goes through it kind of

333
00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,360
Speaker 9: sets out our people up in failure because they're going

334
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:00,640
Speaker 9: to a place where.

335
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:02,840
Speaker 12: All they know is what they know in Australia why

336
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:04,760
Speaker 12: they got the ported for We.

337
00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:06,960
Speaker 3: Get sent here with very little.

338
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:09,960
Speaker 9: And you get a couple hundred bucks and you get

339
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,879
Speaker 9: better than on the back and you get told to.

340
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:13,440
Speaker 3: Do your best.

341
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:26,000
Speaker 2: While politicians are focused on gangs and ram raiders. Recent

342
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,560
Speaker 2: surveys have shown that one in ten New Zealanders are

343
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,520
Speaker 2: believed to have experienced some type of fraud. We caught

344
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,800
Speaker 2: up with enzat Herald investigative reporter Matt Knippett about this

345
00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:39,080
Speaker 2: in September.

346
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 13: The only thing thing about financial crime is often at

347
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,760
Speaker 13: crime of consent, guns aren't being drawn and people handing

348
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,679
Speaker 13: over their wallets or emptying their passes. These crimes are

349
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,280
Speaker 13: committed by people who convinced them to hand it over,

350
00:17:58,480 --> 00:17:59,000
Speaker 13: usually for.

351
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,119
Speaker 3: An envali untrustful reason.

352
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,119
Speaker 13: You know, they say they'll invest in somewhere, would in

353
00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,159
Speaker 13: fact it's just going to pay off the other investors

354
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,560
Speaker 13: that want to get out. It's upon this scheme, or

355
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,199
Speaker 13: it's just being totally most appropriated. So that level of trust,

356
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,280
Speaker 13: I mean, this is why they call convent convent, because

357
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:16,639
Speaker 13: they're confidence met.

358
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:18,000
Speaker 3: I haven't yet met.

359
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,480
Speaker 13: At Fordster who wasn't charismatic. I mean, you've got to

360
00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,520
Speaker 13: be good to convince people hand over the hard and pass. Then,

361
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,440
Speaker 13: of course that does complicate things because often people don't

362
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,800
Speaker 13: want to acknowledge that and tricked and lost money. Certainly

363
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:32,920
Speaker 13: they don't want anyone else to know that they've been

364
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,760
Speaker 13: foolish or taken in. There's a certain amount of shame.

365
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,320
Speaker 4: Nationally, there'll be hundreds of cases a day being reported

366
00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,400
Speaker 4: to police, and we know that not all thoughts reported,

367
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,159
Speaker 4: so the scale of it is truly massive.

368
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,680
Speaker 3: I never thought it never happened to me. I was

369
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:50,680
Speaker 3: pretty upset. I didn't know which way to turn.

370
00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,520
Speaker 2: That money saved up with my granddaughter and my son

371
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:56,159
Speaker 2: and his wife.

372
00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:00,160
Speaker 4: So how much money did you lose in this few

373
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:00,640
Speaker 4: hours and time?

374
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:04,960
Speaker 3: And dearly?

375
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,920
Speaker 13: There are commercial consequences. You know, if your bank realizes

376
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,000
Speaker 13: that you know, you've lost a million dollars of your

377
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,200
Speaker 13: businesses money, they might want to take a closer look

378
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,280
Speaker 13: at your finances to make sure you can replace. There's

379
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,880
Speaker 13: lots of seven centers not to report the sort of crime,

380
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,320
Speaker 13: which is the first big hurdle. The second book hurdle

381
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,600
Speaker 13: we often come across is money that goes offshore, and

382
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:26,639
Speaker 13: you know, we live in a globalized world. People can

383
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,439
Speaker 13: set up bank accounts overseas. There are supposed to be

384
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,240
Speaker 13: sort of anti money laundering checks in place to ensure

385
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,359
Speaker 13: that valanci institutions know who are setting up accounts for

386
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,240
Speaker 13: their institutions and where it's been transferred to. But once

387
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,359
Speaker 13: money goes offshore, and it's extraordinarily difficult to track, lit

388
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,160
Speaker 13: alone recover. Once people realize that's happened to them, often

389
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,879
Speaker 13: they can't see any prospect of getting their money back.

390
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,600
Speaker 13: So why would you go through, you know, all the pain,

391
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,439
Speaker 13: that torment of a criminal investigation which you know, in

392
00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,760
Speaker 13: all likelihood probably won't even get to trial, and either

393
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,960
Speaker 13: of it it's going to drag out for years. A

394
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:03,720
Speaker 13: lot of people just want to cut their losses, and

395
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 13: the losses are indeed quite substantial and sort of at

396
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:07,720
Speaker 13: a national level.

397
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,600
Speaker 2: When we talk about fraud in New Zealand, how many

398
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,960
Speaker 2: millions of dollars are kiwis losing each year.

399
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 13: It's sort of a very fungible term fraud. I mean,

400
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:17,800
Speaker 13: if we sort of look at the sort of the

401
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,000
Speaker 13: economic costs of crime might be a good way to

402
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,080
Speaker 13: look at it. There were some studies that maybe it

403
00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 13: was about ten billion a year. However, it's worth noting

404
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,160
Speaker 13: that the vast majority of that, probably seven or eight billion,

405
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,200
Speaker 13: is just text to avoidance people not paying the tax

406
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,320
Speaker 13: they're required to, either just not paying it and you know,

407
00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,440
Speaker 13: when the bills come due or sort of massage in

408
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,400
Speaker 13: their accounts to make a look as though they don't

409
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,280
Speaker 13: need to pay as much. IOD does have a fairly

410
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:47,600
Speaker 13: big investigations unit, and they unally do about they proscrit

411
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 13: about a billion dollars of that a year, so there

412
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 13: have been some researchers. That's the amount that's messed us

413
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,840
Speaker 13: considerably more, and we break it further down. I know,

414
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 13: it's a lot in the news a moment sort of

415
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,200
Speaker 13: ram raids and retail crime that industry lobby reckons. That's

416
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,480
Speaker 13: about two and a half billion a year. So yes,

417
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,720
Speaker 13: a very big number, but still you're looking at only

418
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,399
Speaker 13: a third the amount of X that's going with thing

419
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,440
Speaker 13: and then going way further down, you know, they're sort

420
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,920
Speaker 13: of the scams and frauds are probably in the three

421
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,400
Speaker 13: to four hundred million dollar range, but that number can

422
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,919
Speaker 13: bounce around a lot. As I mentioned before, individual cases

423
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,879
Speaker 13: can run to one hundred million, which can really skew

424
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,679
Speaker 13: each year's figures. And finally, something that does get a

425
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,960
Speaker 13: fair bit of coverage, but it's worth mentioning purely because

426
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,760
Speaker 13: it's meniscule. Is a welfare fraud which you know, only

427
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,440
Speaker 13: about two or three million dollars a year, if that

428
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 13: has prosecuted each year, it's a comparative pittance, and you know,

429
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,919
Speaker 13: in some total, just a fraction of one of the

430
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 13: sort of ponding type schemes that might get uncovered in

431
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:45,640
Speaker 13: a year.

432
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,520
Speaker 2: Regardless of what type of crime you commit, most roads

433
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 2: in our justice system lead towards our prisons. Earlier this year,

434
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 2: a scathing report from our going chief Ombardsman Peter Bosher,

435
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 2: slammed our country's prison system as unproductive and unwilling to change.

436
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 2: In response, in April, I spoke to Deputy Commissioner of

437
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 2: Prison's New Bills to get his response to those comments

438
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 2: and get insight into the state of corrections.

439
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 1: I respectfully disagree with that because having worked in Corrections

440
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 1: for a considerable amount of time. I know that there's

441
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 1: certain things that, yes, do take some time because you're

442
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,679
Speaker 1: dealing with law, and changing law and regulations has a

443
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 1: process which we have to follow. But there are occasions

444
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 1: when it's in house policy that we can and do change,

445
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 1: you know, quite rapidly, where we possibly can. So look

446
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 1: at the mixed bag, But I don't agree that that

447
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 1: definition respectfully covers everything.

448
00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 3: That we do.

449
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 2: He did say that Corrections has a culture issue. Would

450
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 2: you agree with that?

451
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 3: No, I don't.

452
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 1: I think, you know, if you look back at the

453
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: things that we have done over recent years, I think

454
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 1: we've got a culture that is getting healthier.

455
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:13,679
Speaker 3: All the time.

456
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 1: You know, if you even if you look back over

457
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 1: the COVID years, you know what what we were able

458
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:23,439
Speaker 1: to achieve back through then when we were running you know,

459
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 1: extremely restrictive environments. We wouldn't have been able to achieve

460
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 1: that safely had we had an unsafe or an unhealthy culture.

461
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 1: Do we need to get better in areas? I think absolutely.

462
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 1: We door, which our chief executive has has recently launched

463
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 1: back in early April, is a is a sign of

464
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: his intent to change our organizational structure in order to

465
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 1: you know, be less bureaucratic, where we can be more agile,

466
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 1: where we can be more connected with our external agencies

467
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 1: and partners, and and more connected you know, within within

468
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 1: our own department as well. So you know, that is

469
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 1: a reflecting I think of a culture that is listening,

470
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,640
Speaker 1: learning all the time, but we are also dealing with

471
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: factors which are often outside of our control, such as

472
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,360
Speaker 1: you know, we've now got a arising prison population.

473
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 3: We don't dictate that.

474
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 1: That's dictated through through other parts of the justice sector

475
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 1: of policing and courts and sentencing, etc. You know, we

476
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 1: have come through a very difficult time with staffing which

477
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: has severely impacted us to be able to carry out

478
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,920
Speaker 1: our full range of activities in many.

479
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 3: Of our areas.

480
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: But we're getting through that and we've got a we've

481
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 1: now got an increasing number of applications of staff wanted

482
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 1: to come and work with us, which is very very

483
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: pleasing to see.

484
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 2: It was particularly critical of Auckland Prison, saying not much,

485
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 2: if anything, has changed since COVID. He used the phrase

486
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 2: like a people's storage unit unit and the words containment

487
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 2: and management. Is this fair?

488
00:24:58,040 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 3: I think the reflection on all.

489
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: Look, let's not forget that Auckland Prison is our only

490
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: men's maximum.

491
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 3: Security prison in the country, so.

492
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 1: Not all prisoners who are there are maximum I accept that.

493
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 1: And you know, for those people who have never been

494
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: to Auckland Prison who don't understand the layout, you've effectively

495
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 1: got about five different sections to the prison. You've got

496
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: some lower security, minimum security areas, a high security area,

497
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 1: and then the new maximum security build. The maximum security

498
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 1: side of the prison holds the most dangerous and often

499
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,719
Speaker 1: difficult people that we manage in the entire prison system.

500
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: In order to do that, you've got to do that safely,

501
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 1: with the correct staffing numbers, and you've got to do

502
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 1: it in a way that understands all the risks that

503
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: you face every day. And risk is dynamic. It changes.

504
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 1: You know, what you face in the morning may not

505
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 1: be what you're facing the afternoon. It doesn't take an

506
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: awful lot for the situation on a unit to change rapidly.

507
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 1: You know, you move in a new gang member, you

508
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 1: move out a new gang member. You might have an

509
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: incident that somebody gets a bad phone call, etc. That

510
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: changes the dynamics of that unit significantly. So you know,

511
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 1: I do accept that the pace of change at Auckland

512
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: Prison in some areas has been slower than what many

513
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 1: would have preferred, and that's been indicated in the on

514
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: Bodsman's comments, But there is context to be applied to that.

515
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: I don't think it's through a resistance to change or

516
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: reluctance to change. I think it is through carefully considering

517
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 1: what we are dealing with and making sure that we

518
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: do it safely, because ultimately our staff deserve to be

519
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: safe as well as the prisoners and the public need

520
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: to be safe, which is our duty.

521
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 2: A report from the Office of the Inspectorate, released just

522
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 2: yesterday shows for up to nine months up until July

523
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 2: last year, prisoners in three units were denied their minimum

524
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 2: entitlement to an hour out of their cell every day,

525
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 2: but instead every second day. For one hundred and seven men,

526
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 2: this regime lasted more than one hundred days, and for

527
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 2: twenty seven them more than two hundred days. Is this

528
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 2: good enough?

529
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 6: No?

530
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: And I don't think anybody would sit down here and

531
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: try and argue that that's okay. It's not okay. But again,

532
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 1: you know, for the exact same reasons that I've just

533
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 1: given you, context needs to be applied over there, because

534
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: you just cannot do things if you don't have the

535
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 1: requisite amount of staff. So what the jail was dealing

536
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,439
Speaker 1: with at the time was what is the best that

537
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 1: they could do given the circumstances that they were dealing

538
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 1: within those three units. Bearing in mind the rest of

539
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,719
Speaker 1: the jail was operating by and large, okay, but in

540
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 1: these three units where we are dealing, like I said,

541
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: with some of the most difficult and disruptive and dangerous prisoners,

542
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,159
Speaker 1: you know, you have to be exceptionally cautious in what

543
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: you do.

544
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 3: It is it is.

545
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: Something that you know, I don't think you'll find a

546
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: single member of staff who was happy with the arrangements

547
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: that needed to be put in place, but neither would

548
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,479
Speaker 1: they be happy if we were asking them to unlock

549
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 1: short you know, we've only got a certain amount of

550
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 1: space within those units to a exercise and associate prisoners.

551
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 1: So you've got to do that with the right amount

552
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: of staff. It takes some of these prisoners. You have

553
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: three staff to move one prisoner. Some require four, sometimes five,

554
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: depending on the level of risk that they pose. So no,

555
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: it is not ideal, and nobody in this department is

556
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: sitting here going look that was okay, it's not okay.

557
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 1: Thankfully though, we are now seeing our FTU numbers are

558
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 1: awkling back to a very healthy state. Our visits are

559
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: now opening up again. I was talking to the site

560
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 1: this morning. The consultation with the unions and those discussions

561
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: are coming to an end and we believe that we

562
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: should be operating visits back as normal in those areas

563
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: now by the end of the month, which is great

564
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: and that's what everybody wants to see.

565
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: In terms of being committed to change within corrections. The

566
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 2: next time, say the ombudsman walks through Auckland Prison and

567
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 2: he comes out the other end and he says, yes,

568
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: it has change. I can see that there is change,

569
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 2: or be I can't see anything happening here. Would you

570
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 2: stake your job on him walking out that prison saying

571
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 2: something's happening?

572
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 3: Look, I think you.

573
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: Know, those those are questions I don't enter into because

574
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: I think it's you know, it doesn't get you anywhere.

575
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: My role is to make sure that sites that I'm

576
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: responsible for or supported and they can do their job

577
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: for the best of their ability.

578
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 2: Would you be confident that Bosher walks through and says,

579
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 2: change is happening.

580
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 3: Well, right now, change is happening in Aubland prison.

581
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 2: He doesn't think so.

582
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: Well, I've just spent I've spent most of March there

583
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,239
Speaker 1: covering for a colleague. You and I can tell you

584
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: now that you know the change is significant.

585
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 3: Are we there yet? No, we're not. We're not out

586
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 3: of the woods. But change is happening.

587
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 2: That's it for this compilation episode of The Front Page.

588
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 2: You can read more about the stories featured in this

589
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 2: episode and extensive news coverage at ends at Herald dot

590
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 2: co dot z. The Front Page is produced by Ethan

591
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 2: Sills and Richard Martin, who is also our sound engineer,

592
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 2: along with Paddy Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The

593
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 2: Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,

594
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 2: and tune in tomorrow for another compilation episode, taking a

595
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 2: look back at some of the year's biggest stories,