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Speaker 1: Kilda.

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Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

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Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. New figures

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Speaker 2: show New Zealand women are significantly underrepresented in property ownership.

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Speaker 2: More than half of gen Z men and two thirds

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Speaker 2: of millennial men own the home they live in. That's

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Speaker 2: compared to the female figures of about a third and

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Speaker 2: under half, respectively. Today on the Front Page, Cotality and

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Speaker 2: Z's chief property economist, Kelvin Davidson is with us to

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Speaker 2: discuss what's contributing to this discrepancy and how we might

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Speaker 2: be able to fix it. So Kelvin, the report shows

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Speaker 2: a significant ownership gap between men and women, especially among

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Speaker 2: younger generations. The most striking factor is contributing to this,

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Speaker 2: do you think yeah?

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Speaker 1: I think it's really comes down to two things, and

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Speaker 1: the first thing is going to be income. We know

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Speaker 1: there's a gender wage gap. Unfortunately across New Zealand. It

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Speaker 1: has closed and if you go back sort of three

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Speaker 1: five years something like that, it was about a nine

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Speaker 1: percent wage gap. So so female is getting paid about

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Speaker 1: nine percent less for a very similar job. That gap

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Speaker 1: has closed five percent, So that's good, but obviously more

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Speaker 1: needs to be done. A survey shows that smaller proportion

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Speaker 1: of females earned say more than one hundred thousand, there's

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Speaker 1: some kind of benchmark. Whichever wage you look at, there

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Speaker 1: are lower proportions of females earning that wage. So I

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Speaker 1: think it's reflecting financial resources. It's that wage gap, it's

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Speaker 1: lower salaries for similar work and just generally overall income

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Speaker 1: is a bit lower. So that's going to be a

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Speaker 1: restraint in terms of property ownership. It's going to be

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Speaker 1: harder to afford a property. But there's the surveys also

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Speaker 1: telling us there's perhaps some I don't think it's education

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Speaker 1: gets necessarily, but just the sort of information gap in

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Speaker 1: the sense of understanding the homeboying process. There's about sixteen

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Speaker 1: percent of female respondents. Of those females we haven't owned

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Speaker 1: a property or don't own a property now, about sixteen

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Speaker 1: percent said they just didn't know whe'd start, and there

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Speaker 1: was about six percent for males. So you know, those

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Speaker 1: figures aren't massive, but it's quite it's a reasonable gap

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Speaker 1: between male and female I guess sort of understanding of

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Speaker 1: the home buying process. So, yeah, if we can fix

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Speaker 1: the income GEP, if we can, I guess better target

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Speaker 1: educational processes around home buying. That will all help make

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Speaker 1: a difference, and I hope we can make progress over

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Speaker 1: the medium term in.

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Speaker 2: Terms of how this survey is conducted. I know one

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Speaker 2: thing that people may point out is like, well, you know,

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Speaker 2: in a couple, the house might be under a man's name.

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Speaker 2: Would that take Is that taken into account when getting

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Speaker 2: these results?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean that will be an issue for some respondents,

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Speaker 1: but I guess we're simply asking people do their own property?

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Speaker 1: Do they not? Why don't they if they don't these

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Speaker 1: sorts of things. I suspect that, you know, okay, technically

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Speaker 1: in some cases that it might be the man's name

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Speaker 1: on the title. There were cases where I guess it's

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Speaker 1: only the women's name on the title as well, so

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Speaker 1: it could go both ways. But I suspect in most cases,

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Speaker 1: even if it is only the man's name on the

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Speaker 1: title in a male female partnership and obviously a very

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Speaker 1: different type of multiple different types there, But in a

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Speaker 1: male female partnership, even if it is the man's name

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Speaker 1: on the title, I suspect the female respondent would probably

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Speaker 1: still say, yep, I own the property, even if technically

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Speaker 1: if you went right into the records the title, it

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Speaker 1: might tell you something different. So I suspect that's probably

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Speaker 1: not a big deal. It may be an issue in

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Speaker 1: some cases, but I don't think it would be a

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Speaker 1: game changer for the overall results.

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Speaker 2: In terms of perhaps support. What would that look like

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Speaker 2: and whose responsibility do you think it falls on?

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Speaker 1: Well? I mean everyone, really, you know, there's this I

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Speaker 1: suppose it's easy in this issue and these sorts of

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Speaker 1: issues to point fingers that that you know, men point

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Speaker 1: fingers at women. I'm in In the end, it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's on everyone to improve these issues, whether whether that's

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Speaker 1: a female already on an executive or a male already

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Speaker 1: on an executive. You know, it's it's really down to everyone,

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Speaker 1: I think. And I think there's obviously a greater awareness

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Speaker 1: of the issues here, and it's not just in relation

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Speaker 1: to property, but just in relation to the workplace in general.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's there's issues here to be fixed. So

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Speaker 1: I think it's on everyone, really, and anything government can

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Speaker 1: do to improve those those sorts of roles as well

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Speaker 1: would be a good thing. And so, okay, one of

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Speaker 1: those things progress made, but more to do.

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Speaker 2: In terms of getting onto the property ladder. I mean,

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Speaker 2: the barriers are getting higher and higher, right, no matter

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Speaker 2: what gender you are or how you identify. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it used to be like, well, rent it costs the

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Speaker 2: same amount as a mortgage, so why don't we just

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Speaker 2: invest in a house and get a property or something.

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Speaker 2: But it's really not the case these days.

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Speaker 1: Hey yeah, I mean so definitely not saying that buying

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Speaker 1: a property is easy by any means. It's still expensive.

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Speaker 1: There's still a lot of challenges there. What we have seen, though,

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Speaker 1: if you look at housing affordability measures, certainly over the

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Speaker 1: past three or four years, is that it has got easier.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's easy, but it has got easy year.

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Speaker 1: I mean, house prices are down nationally eighteen percent from

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Speaker 1: the peak, interest rates have fallen a lot in the

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Speaker 1: past couple of years, and of course in the meantime

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Speaker 1: incomes have gone up. So if you look at i

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Speaker 1: fairly standard measure of affordability such as new mortgage payments,

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Speaker 1: is there as a share of household income that's now

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Speaker 1: pretty much back down to its average. So it started

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Speaker 1: from a very stretch Levelso all it's done is really

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Speaker 1: returned to average. But that's still a big improvement on

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Speaker 1: where it was. And you know, if you use average

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Speaker 1: as a measure of normality, well you could probably say

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Speaker 1: it's relatively normal now. It hasn't gone below average. It's

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Speaker 1: not screaming only cheap, but things are a lot easier

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Speaker 1: than they have been. And you know, this finance available

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Speaker 1: for people if they can satisfy certain serviceability criteria. There

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Speaker 1: is finance available at the banks. That's that's not an issue.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, there are reasonable conditions out there for buyers

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Speaker 1: at the moment. Gain not saying it's easy. Were regardless

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Speaker 1: of female, male, it's still a challenge to buy that

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Speaker 1: fairst property. But I think it always has been, you know,

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Speaker 1: and you can look at different challenges through time. Maybe

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Speaker 1: perhaps house prices were a lot lower in nineteen eighty,

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Speaker 1: but also interest rates we're a heck of a lot higher,

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Speaker 1: and some sometimes in the past, so there's always swings

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Speaker 1: aroundabout So I think it's never easy, but at least

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Speaker 1: we have seen some improvement and housing affordability, and I

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Speaker 1: think there's every reason to think that that stays around

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Speaker 1: for a while because you look at things like land supply.

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Speaker 1: At the moment, the government's pushing really hard on regulatory

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Speaker 1: change for more houses, and we have seen good progress

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Speaker 1: on that actually in the last couple of years that

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Speaker 1: the stock of physical housing has risen relative to populations.

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Speaker 1: So I think there's reasonable cause for optimism there. I

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Speaker 1: think it has to stick through the political cycle. Of course,

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Speaker 1: who knows what's going to happen later in the year.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, there's the government's government's pushing very hard and

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Speaker 1: land supply hopefully getting that up that will have a

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Speaker 1: favorable impact on affordability too. So I'm a sort of

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Speaker 1: I'm fairly optimistic on that one.

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Speaker 2: What I'm getting from that is that I need to

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Speaker 2: stop ordering takeout because it really is doable and possible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: dip into the sort of trouble CEF lending rules that

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Speaker 1: were around a while ago where banks were scrutinizing the

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Speaker 1: sort of Netflix and what was it Evcado and Toast and.

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Speaker 2: Things were too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but now those rules have relaxed now, and that

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Speaker 1: was a good good thing because they were overly stringent.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, each to their own that there's

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Speaker 1: no financial advice here anything, and people make their own decisions.

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Speaker 1: But what we are seeing in the market at the

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Speaker 1: moment is the first time buyers are very active, running

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Speaker 1: at a record numbers in fact of market share. Now

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Speaker 1: in a busier market as well. That's more deals too,

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Speaker 1: so so first time buyers are really active. I mean

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Speaker 1: lower interest rates out which are lower house prices help,

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Speaker 1: I should say, as well as tapping in the KII

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Speaker 1: savor that's a support. There is always that, I guess,

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Speaker 1: non monetary incentive of security of tenure, you know, getting

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Speaker 1: into a getting into an owner occupied property. Now I'm

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Speaker 1: not I'm not against renting by any means. I think

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's a great option that you

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Speaker 1: look at a lot of countries around the world most

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Speaker 1: people actually rent, and they're not they're not they're not

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Speaker 1: poor countries, they're not on a path to oblivion or

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Speaker 1: anything that you're talking here. Countries like Germany, like Switzerland,

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Speaker 1: you know most people rent there and you know they

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Speaker 1: do pretty well. So renting is not not a bad things.

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Speaker 1: I'm a woman, I'm learning this. That's a lot. When

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Speaker 1: it's not an investment that me and my longtime boyfriends

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Speaker 1: are going into together. People just continue to assume and

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Speaker 1: say that we bought it together. At the end of

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Speaker 1: the day, it's not this huge issue, but I thought

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Speaker 1: it was something that is interesting to look at, analyze

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Speaker 1: and talk about because I believe that more and more

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Speaker 1: women should be doing what I'm doing, which is making

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Speaker 1: their own investments apart from their family, apart from their mothers,

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Speaker 1: their fathers, their boyfriends, their husbands, because at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, we don't live in a world that

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Speaker 1: really puts us first, so we have to put ourselves

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Speaker 1: first sometimes we are.

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Speaker 2: So we are very trends fixed on home ownership in

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Speaker 2: this country, and it's something that we've talked about on

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Speaker 2: this podcast time and time again. Do you think that

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Speaker 2: will ever shift or is that just the way it

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Speaker 2: is here?

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean it does seem pretty ingrained. I mean,

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Speaker 1: and we have seen over time that his affordability has

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Speaker 1: got more challenging, that home ownership right has come down.

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Speaker 1: But I think there's a distinction to we made here

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Speaker 1: between I guess what people would would like to happen

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Speaker 1: and what can happen your choice first necessities thing. And

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Speaker 1: you know, even though the home ownership rate has come

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Speaker 1: down in some cases, that won't be a choice. It's

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Speaker 1: just simply the tousing's got less affordable over time. And

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Speaker 1: so I suspect if you said to people you know

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Speaker 1: that you served, do you want to own house? At

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Speaker 1: some point, I suspect that that would stay pretty strong,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think so, I think it is pretty ingrained.

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Speaker 1: You know, maybe what we are seeing at the moment

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Speaker 1: is a bit of a shift away from wanting to

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Speaker 1: own investment property. I think there's still a strong desire

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Speaker 1: for people to get into their own house, you know,

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Speaker 1: get that security of tenure. I can't see that really

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Speaker 1: disappearing anytime soon. But what we are detecting in the

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Speaker 1: moment is maybe a bit of a shift in terms

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Speaker 1: of owning rental property. People going you know what, that's

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Speaker 1: that's not as not as easy a business as it

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Speaker 1: once might have been. If capital growth has slowed down

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Speaker 1: in future, it's harder to get the same return. More

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Speaker 1: investment options on the table in terms of simple ways

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Speaker 1: of a new and shares, these sorts of things. So

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Speaker 1: we might be seeing a shift there there. We're only

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Speaker 1: going to know in due course when we can look

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Speaker 1: back in hindsight, But just at the moment, there does

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Speaker 1: seem to be a web bit of a mentality shift

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Speaker 1: going on there, So that could be something that I

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Speaker 1: could definitely subscribe to. But does the desire to own

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Speaker 1: your own house to live in change much? They're not

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Speaker 1: so sure.

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Speaker 2: Well, this is something actually quite interesting I found. The

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Speaker 2: report also found that two in three property owners have

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Speaker 2: made some kind of sustainability upgrade. Talk me through that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so we looked here, So this is for people

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Speaker 1: obviously who have already bought a property. Are they Are

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Speaker 1: they thinking about things like solar panels, insulation, these sorts

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Speaker 1: of things. We split it into sort of major categories.

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Speaker 1: You put solar panels in there, as opposed to sort

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Speaker 1: of more minor categories like I guess putting you know,

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Speaker 1: seales around your doors, this sort of thing. So you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a scale question here, but yeah, certainly a high

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Speaker 1: proportion of current homeowners have either taken steps to improve

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Speaker 1: the so called sustainability of their property or intend to

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Speaker 1: quite a strong proportion as well, looking to make changes

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Speaker 1: within the next sort of year or two. So that's

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Speaker 1: a good thing. It's actually the intent to do that

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Speaker 1: is stronger at the younger generations. So when you get

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Speaker 1: into the sort of gen z's and millennials, that intent

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Speaker 1: or desire to improve the sustainability is actually stronger. Now

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Speaker 1: there might be a cost factor there, a financial hurdle,

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Speaker 1: but at least the intent is there, So yeah, it

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Speaker 1: has to be a good thing. We know there's certain

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Speaker 1: in some of our older properties around the country there's

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Speaker 1: going to be issues with quality. You see all the

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Speaker 1: surveys around mold and sthma issues and all these sorts

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Speaker 1: of things. So improving the quality of their housing stock

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Speaker 1: is a pretty big deal as well. So that's encouraging

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Speaker 1: and that's something we can probably look at more and

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Speaker 1: sort of future surveys too. Well.

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Speaker 2: It would make sense, right because these are probably the

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Speaker 2: generations that have lived in a damp, moldy house and

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Speaker 2: paid five hundred dollars for a room for the privilege

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Speaker 2: of doing it. So when they've got their own space,

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Speaker 2: they would probably want to alleviate that and never live

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Speaker 2: in that kind of situation again, I suppose.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's presumably going to be part of the motivation

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Speaker 1: for moving into owner occupation. It's potentially being able to

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Speaker 1: get into a house you can renovate if you like

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Speaker 1: painting whatever color you want to. These sorts of things.

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Speaker 1: I suppose one thing to point out about the rental

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Speaker 1: market at the moment is that there aren't going to

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Speaker 1: be quality issues still, but we've got the healthy home standards,

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Speaker 1: so at least that's going to have improved on average

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Speaker 1: the quality of rental properties around things like making sure

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Speaker 1: you've got to heat pump's ventilation, these sorts of things.

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Speaker 1: So there have been positive steps on that front, and

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Speaker 1: at the moment probably the rental markets tilted in favor

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Speaker 1: of tenants. Really there's the rents or either flat to

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Speaker 1: falling in a lot of the parts of the country,

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Speaker 1: and there's decent levels of choice, So you know, I

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Speaker 1: suppose I just say, if people are not so comfortable

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Speaker 1: in the current situation, there may well be some more

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Speaker 1: choice out there, and shopping around right now as a

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Speaker 1: tenant's probably not the worst idea. And also in the

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Speaker 1: owner occupation market, it's a buyers market too, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of listings out there. At the moment, things are

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Speaker 1: probably in favor of tenants and in favor of buyers

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Speaker 1: a little bit against landlords and property owners. So there's

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Speaker 1: this kind of window there. I guess where it's you

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Speaker 1: don't always see it. Like this, but just at the moment,

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Speaker 1: we're in a sort of favorable market for those groups.

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Speaker 2: And some people might be listening to this and thinking,

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Speaker 2: why does it matter so much that women own less

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Speaker 2: homes than men? Why are we talking about it? Why

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Speaker 2: is it such a big deal? But I guess what

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Speaker 2: I want to know is what are the long term

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Speaker 2: economic risks if younger women, say gen Z millennials, continue

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Speaker 2: to lag behind in the home ownership space.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what it's really to do with, I mean, earlier

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Speaker 1: access to property or any assets in general. Really, earlier investment,

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Speaker 1: earlier timing of starting to build wealth is going to

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Speaker 1: be beneficial in the long term. I mean it's not

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Speaker 1: just in the sort of straightforward sense of that, you know,

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Speaker 1: the sooner you start building as sets, the more you

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Speaker 1: have later, but also sort of compounds and you can

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Speaker 1: open up more opportunities for yourself as you start to

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Speaker 1: build that set base. So yeah, I think it's around that.

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Speaker 1: Not necessarily property. I mean, as I say, people, people

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Speaker 1: are buying all sorts of different things. We're a property

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Speaker 1: data company, so we look at it from a property angle,

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Speaker 1: but it can be any sort of set really, And

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Speaker 1: so it's about I think building that asset based soon,

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Speaker 1: creating more opportunities later in life, those sort of positive

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Speaker 1: things as well as there are non monetary benefits too,

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Speaker 1: as we've talked about, I've having a security of tenure

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Speaker 1: and props having a property that's of slightly high quality.

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Speaker 1: You can put on the solar panels if you want,

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Speaker 1: So it's around that, and you know, we know that

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Speaker 1: for whatever reason, I mean, the legacy things, the ingrained

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Speaker 1: mentality of buying property, it has been a strong source

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Speaker 1: of wealth and income and retirement. So that may shift

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Speaker 1: over time potentially, but for right now it's still a

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Speaker 1: pretty strong source, so that the earlier people can tap

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Speaker 1: into that the better. And that applies regardless of male

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Speaker 1: or female. But as the survey shows, females are legging

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Speaker 1: behind on that ownership start right now, so improving that

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Speaker 1: we'll have all sorts of benefits for all of us.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Calvin, no worries.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

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Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

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Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is

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Speaker 2: hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels Caine Dicky is

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Speaker 2: our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and

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Speaker 2: our executive producer is Jane Ye. Follow the front page

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Speaker 2: on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcasts,

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Speaker 2: and join us next time for another look beyond the headlines.

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Speaker 1: Four