WEBVTT - Chlöe Swarbrick on the Green's economic plans and why NZ should consider a tax on the ultra-rich 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:08.720 Kiyota owned Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:16.439 a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. Should 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:21.600 the ultra wealthy pay more tax? It's a debate that's 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:26.800 continued for decades, even centuries, from ancient Athens to present day. 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:30.120 The idea has been a constant when it comes to 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:34.639 addressing inequality, yet no government in the last few decades 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:39.239 has been brave enough to impose one. It's a staple 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:44.159 of the Green Party's proposed budget, which promises bold moves 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:47.720 to make sure everyone has a warm home, decent ki 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:51.959 and the care and support for a good life. But 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:56.120 who pays and is leaning even more left than center 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:59.840 doing wonders for the party's polling. Today on the Front 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:04.120 Green Party co leader Chloe's Swarbrick is with us to 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:08.160 discuss whether it's time for the wealthy to fund the. 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:08.679 Rest of us. 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:14.920 First off, Chloe, your Green's on Tour road show is 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:18.560 taking the party's Green budget directly to communities. What are 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:22.959 the most common concerns or questions or stuff raised with you? 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:25.480 People know that the wheels are falling off. You know, 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:27.800 if you diagnose the problem of the world that we're 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:30.039 living in today or the country that we're living in today. 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:32.160 You know, half a million New Zealanders are using food 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:34.000 banks every single month, one hundred and ninety one New 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:37.320 Zealanders or leaving the country every single day, and a 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:39.720 pharicle correctly two thirds of them are between the ages 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:42.560 of eighteen to forty five. If Nicola Oillis has concerns 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:45.199 about the aging population and the challenges that may face 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:49.560 in terms of fiscal propositions for us, then we need 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.240 to actually be having sensible, rational conversations. And that was 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:55.960 just only underscored by the iid's Long Term Insights briefing 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:57.760 from a few weeks ago, which told us that the 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:01.280 rational conversation and politics if we change the tax system, 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:03.919 it's how we change the tax system to make things fairer. 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:05.640 But look, you don't need to be an economist to 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:08.320 know that things are pretty dire and pretty diabolical out 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:10.240 there at the moment, and New Zealanders are feeling it 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:13.200 every single day. So I'm also really part of the 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:15.080 fact that we've been going out there and saying we'll 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:18.560 not here to complain an solidarity with those complaints, but 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:20.920 also to put some solutions on the table. So for us, 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:24.840 let's looked like obviously free early childhood education, free dentistry, 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:28.760 free GPS in the primary healthcare space, and also helping 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:32.360 the transition into a climate resilient economy, because you can't 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:35.600 just be talking about climate adaptation without also talking about 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:38.720 how we curb our climate changing emissions. And this government's 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:43.440 making some deeply irresponsible and frankly stupid decisions with, for example, 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:45.720 the two hundred million dollars that it's decided to invest 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:49.520 in new fossil fuel subsidies. It's taxpayer money. Yeah, so the. 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:53.639 Party's promising you mentioned, free early childhood education, free dental care, 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:55.480 free GP visits. I mean, what do you say to 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:58.840 critics who find all of this to be fiscally unrealistic? 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.280 Say that if we were advocating for or fighting for 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:07.400 free compulsory education or free hospitals, these days would be 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:09.919 called the exact same thing. It'd be called wasteful spending, 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:13.200 would be called Marxists, and all the rest come at us. 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:16.280 The reality is that we've done really big things in 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:18.880 the past, and the nineteen thirties and forties, after World 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:21.239 Wars and the Great Depression, we came together as a 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:24.200 country and decided to build a nation which looked like 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:28.040 the foundations of public health care, public education, and public housing. 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.560 And we paid for that responsibly by higher taxes on 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.040 those who had profited handsomely during a time of hardship 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:36.800 for many. Right now, we're in a situation where the 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:40.200 top one percent in this country hold twenty three percent 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:43.360 of all of the country's wealth, and IRD research from 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:45.320 twenty twenty three told us that the top three hundred 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:47.960 eleven households pay an effective tax rate less than half 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.080 of that of the average New Zealander. It's not fair. 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:53.200 And when are we going to be able to have 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:56.360 a rational political debate about how we fix and change 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:59.400 these things? I mean, there's a reason that the Conservatives 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:01.280 on the other sid out of the political debate and 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.040 not even willing to engage in the terms of this debate. 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:06.040 They simply want to shut it down. And that should 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:08.400 tell New Zealanders everything that they need to know. I'd 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:11.080 also add that in the government's first hundred days, one 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:13.400 of the first things that it did, as quietly as 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:17.159 it possibly could was revoke or appeal the enabling legislation 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:21.120 to require id to report on the fairness or on 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:23.320 fairness of our tax system. One the way there is 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:27.880 I think Nobel Peace Prize winning economists have recently called 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:31.960 for a global tax on the ultra wretch, arguing that 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:35.279 even a modest two percent wealth tax on billionaires, say 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:41.760 not even just millionaires, billionaires could raise substantial revenue internationally. Now, 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:45.200 how does the Green parties proposed wealth tax compare? And 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:47.640 do you see new zeeraltters having a kind of a 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:51.640 leadership role in this global argument at the moment. I mean, 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:54.320 we absolutely could be taking leadership position if we want 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:56.840 to do. Unfortunately, I think with this current government we're 0:04:56.880 --> 0:04:58.800 saying far more of a shredder than we are any 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:00.520 kind of vision for the nation and that we'd want 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:02.200 to build. And this is the point that I made 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:05.120 in the budget debate. You know, this kind of cut, cut, 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:08.679 cut after callous cut, whether it's in conservation or frontline 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:11.640 of what's necessary for communities or climate resilience or adaptation 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:15.880 or whatever. It's not only cruel and unusual, but it's 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:18.480 not how you build a country, it's how you break one. 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:20.320 And that's where I kind of come back to those 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:24.400 basic economic principles. You know, it's really deeply ironic and 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:28.320 profoundly nonsensical for the government to be talking out one 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.560 side of its mouth about productivity and growth while actively 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:35.200 kneecapping precisely those things with its fiscal strategy, where it 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:37.320 is pulling back on government investment and the things that 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:41.200 drive that productivity and that growth, let alone fair distribution 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:43.720 of those things. But to your question on how our 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:46.640 tax proposals would work, so we put on the table 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:49.160 a proposal for a wealth tax which would only apply 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:51.640 to the top approximate three percent in this country. So 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:54.960 for anyone with an individual net wealth over two million dollars, 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:56.680 so for a couple, it's over four million, and that's 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:00.760 net wealth, so it's minus obviously your mortgages. Ratherwise, you'd 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:03.880 pay a two point five percent tax above that term 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:07.400 million dollars net wealth individually, and doing that along the 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:10.400 suite of other reforms, and using debt sensibly to actually 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:13.760 pay for productive investment in our infrastructure, as opposed to 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:16.200 the tax cuts of Nicola Willis, which have generated zero 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:18.640 jobs and in fact have only continued to minimize the 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:22.320 opportunity for young New Zealanders. We can build an economy 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:23.560 that works for people and planet. 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:29.960 They are further entrenching a system, mister speaker, which sees 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:34.119 our nurses, our firefighters, our teachers pay an effective tax 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:38.040 rate almost double that of the wealthiest in this country. 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:41.880 And not only is that so deeply unfair and so 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:45.400 deeply inequitable that it robs us of the very productivity 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:47.800 that they tell us that they care about, it robs 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:49.960 us of the investment that we could be making in 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:51.839 that infrastructure that all. 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:52.600 Of us need. 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:57.039 The fundamental problem with the economy and the tax system 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:00.359 in altero in New Zealand is that we over tax 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:03.720 work and we undertaxt indeed oftentimes do not tax at 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:04.920 all wealth. 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:11.840 We're hearing these terms rich ultra riches as a term 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:15.760 that I've heard pop up recently as well. How does 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:20.880 the Green Party define rich in this context of tax policy? 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:23.680 Where do we draw the line for who should pay more? 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.080 I mean, we've drawn the line and our proposals as 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:30.440 that termillion dollar figure, termillion dollars individual net wealth puts 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:32.480 in the top three percent in this country. So I 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.240 think you're doing pretty all right. And this is where 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:36.840 I think we just kind of need to come back 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.640 to these really fundamental points. Right there are very few 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:42.960 people in this country who could individually afford to pay 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:45.280 for the cost of building a school or a hospital, 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:48.280 or even closer to home for a loved one's cancer treatment. 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:51.840 When tragedy befalls us. That is why we pull our 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:55.160 resources together and we create this thing called a country. 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:57.800 Because we're not five million random individual people or running 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:00.360 around this country doing our own thing. Actually need each 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.280 other and we can build this infrastructure by working together. 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:05.880 So yeah, I mean, maybe it's a bit of a 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:08.320 red hearing to try and define what we perceive rich 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:10.200 to be, but we've decided to draw the line in 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:11.960 terms of our wealth tax is currently at that two 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:13.680 million dollar net individual wealth. 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:17.000 What about Nan and Pop who bought say a villa 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:19.640 in Mount Eden for a ten of tomatoes in the 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.760 seventiges or something, and they're obviously going to be above that. 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.400 What happens there. Yeah, So in terms of people who 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:29.640 are you know, asset wealthyed but don't necessarily have the 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.480 cash flow, they would be able to have this eventually 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.040 paid off in the same way that rates can accumulate 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:37.280 against the kind of property to the point that it's 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:39.360 sold or the point at which somebody passes on. So 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:41.800 we'd have those same features in our wealth. 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:46.160 Tax critics often claim that higher taxes on wealth will 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:48.840 drive high net worth individuals to leave. 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:52.480 The country, and this is probably a few gimes, and 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:54.480 that's why we simply can't do anything about it. 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:58.200 No, No, what evidence do we have that something similar 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:00.360 wouldn't happen here? Like would there be some kind of 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:03.800 brain drain? I mean we're seeing one at the moment anyway, 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:07.520 that's kind of the point. But would we be seeing 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:10.440 different individuals leave and we don't mind them leaving, but 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:11.640 we want the young ends day. 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:14.800 It's frankly ludicrous. Look, I'm not going to pretend that 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:18.400 it is easy to change the tax system. Of course 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:21.520 it's not. But ease should not be the reason that 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:25.199 we do something. Fairness and equity and the fundamental principles 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:27.439 and values that we have as New Zealanders, that is 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:29.200 that we care about each other and the planet that 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:31.520 we live on should be the driving force behind why 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:34.240 we do things. And we've done people should one hundred 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:38.640 and we've done hard things in the past, So I mean, yeah, 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:43.200 just a lot of the arguments that are often floated around, 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:45.520 for example, Norway, at the top of my head, I 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:48.920 think it's there's approximately two hundred and thirty six thousand 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:52.560 millionaires and billionaires in Norway and there are approximately thirty 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:54.720 high profile individuals who made a big song and dance 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:56.400 about leaving the country as a result of their wealth 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.520 tax changes, and that resulted in a huge amount of hysteria. 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:02.080 Again a drop in the bucket in terms of the 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:04.600 reality of it. So I think we just need to 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.160 come back down to earth as far as this debate goes, 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:09.960 and ask ourselves why do people want to live here? 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:12.200 It shouldn't be a race to the bottom to shred 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:14.040 the social safety in there and the infrastructure that all 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:16.280 of us ultimately rely on. All the country falls apart 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:19.800 and people end up with less social cohesion and we 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:22.040 have more people sleeping rough down the bottom of Queen 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:25.200 Street outside of luxury stores. The reason that people should 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:27.200 want to live here is because of our great quality 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:29.880 of life, and we are losing that because we are 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:39.240 not investing in it. What about people? 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:41.120 And you've probably heard this one before as well, because 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:43.840 I've heard it a few times. I've worked hard to 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:44.520 get here. 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:51.080 I ask anyone, well, firstly, I would say the hard 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:54.000 working news are some of the hardest working New Zealanders 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:56.640 that I have met are single mothers working multiple jobs, 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:58.760 paying double the effective tax rate if the multi multi 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:01.880 millionaires and billionaires in this country. So yeah, I mean, 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.840 any politician who wants to claim to be fighting for 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:08.000 the hard working New Zealanders should be fighting for those 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:11.880 who make their income from work, not from near wealth accumulation. 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:14.600 By the way, I read some critique about the so 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:18.240 you've got this thing five thousand dollars per passenger private 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:22.640 jet tax proposing, and I've read something that's somewhere that said, look, 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.640 it'll it'll force people to fly commercial or something. And 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:29.000 I actually laughed out loud at that because these people 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.600 are not like five thousand dollars to me, for instance, 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:34.600 I don't know about you, but that's I don't have 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:36.559 that total will really do you know what I mean? 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.880 But these people who have private jets, I'm going to 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:42.440 say they will drop that on a lunch aind of 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:43.199 some things, so. 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:46.280 Little in the multiples of that that it costs they 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:48.160 actually use the private jet to get here in the position. 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:50.720 Yeah, I mean, do you have any data or any 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:54.120 idea how many of those private jet passengers are actually 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:55.800 coming here? Every month. 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:58.480 Yeah, every year. I believe it's between two hundred and 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:01.520 fifty to three hundred, so it's not that many. But again, 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:03.400 this is about kind of drawing a line in the 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:05.720 sand or making a point of principle, because we've seen 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:09.120 similar policies applied in other jurisdictions. I just think that 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:11.960 it is insane that we are at a point in 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:16.240 time where regular people, low income, middle income, regular people 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:19.400 are trying their best to use reusable straws and reusable cups, 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:21.800 and billionaires are allowed to set the planet on fire. 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:23.560 That's kind of the end of it for me. 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:26.760 Oh yeah, Well, Jeff Bezos is wedding the other Oh yeah. 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:29.440 I was giving a close eye on that guest lest 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:32.600 thinking like, oh right, that's good to see Oprah there. 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:37.040 I mean, in New York City recently, attacks the rich 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:42.800 message helped Zoran Mumdani to win the Democratic mayoral primary. 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:45.280 Do you say this as a sign that public sentiment 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:48.960 is shifting globally in favor of wealth taxes. 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:51.280 Yeah. I think there's a few things that we can 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:55.160 take from Zoran's win. The first, you know, I really 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:58.480 applaud the approach that he took post Trump's Win. He 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:01.920 went into communities within New York and the equivalents of 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:03.959 kind of electorates or burrows or whatever they call them 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.200 over there, and he asked people why they had flipped 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:09.360 from the Democrats to voting for Trump, because that seems 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:11.760 to be a question that many of us in commentary 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:15.640 land are asking. And what he found, strangely enough, was 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:18.720 people citing the cost of living and basic economic issues 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:21.959 and they felt as though they had voted for decades 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:24.600 and decades their entire lives for the Democrats to do 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.800 something about it, and they hadn't. So it was kind 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:30.240 of a hail Mary, something needs to change. So we're 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:32.040 just going to grasp for the closest thing that looks 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:35.240 like a meaningful transformation or a meaningful change there. And 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.000 that is why he ended up coming out with such 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:42.120 strong fundamental economic policies of how you basically rebuild society, 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:44.600 of how you rebuild communities, of how you provide people 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:49.280 with actual economic freedom which then results in those social freedoms. 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:52.120 So you know, will be completely transparent about the fact 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:54.920 that Baquard I was at university, I was enamored by 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:59.000 the idea of libertarianism, which is actually the ideology encapsulated 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:01.719 best by the activity right now, because I was like, oh, yeah, 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:03.520 course it makes sense. We'll just get to run around, 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:05.720 live our own lives, don't interrupt other people doing their 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:07.839 own thing. But the more that I thought about it, 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:10.720 and I read a second book, you then start to 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:14.720 realize that that social freedom is allsory. It's not real 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:17.760 if you don't have access to the material basics to 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:20.600 be able to participate in society to survive, let alone 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:23.040 to thrive. So that's where he came out, obviously with 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:25.240 the kind of tax the rich stuff, but also those 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.960 basic propositions for free public transport services, for free early childhood. 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:29.320 Yeah. 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:32.280 I think that what that tells us is in a 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:37.920 nutshell tempered centrism which has failed people for decades, for 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:40.880 forty decades, as they're being subjected to trackle down economics 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:45.280 is a breeding ground for effectively right wing radicalism. And 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:48.400 the antidote to that is to ensure that everybody has 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:50.440 their basic needs met. It's not rocket science. 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:56.280 On our numbers, the opposition parties Labor, the Greens, Antipart 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:58.680 and Maldi would be in a position to govern if 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:01.640 an election was held today. Let's break the numbers down. 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:05.120 National is on thirty point seven points. That's down two 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:08.080 point two on our last poll in March. Labor is 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.720 a head of National sitting on thirty three point two. 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:14.240 That's a slight increase of zero point nine. The Greens 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.240 into Party Mardi are both up. The Greens one point 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:20.680 six points to eleven point six while to Party Mardi 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:24.200 has nudged up zero point five to five point five 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:25.240 percentage points. 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:30.760 Well, the Green Party is currently polling really well. 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:32.680 We can go high. 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.160 The double digits now, which is I mean, this far 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:41.040 out from election isn't too bad, all right, and that's 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:43.320 ahead of ACT in New Zealand. First in the recent 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:47.720 post fresh Water and ourn z Read research polls, Rather, 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:50.440 what do you attribute this surge and support to. 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.960 First thing, I say, I'm always so reticent to provide 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:59.400 commentary on poles. I know, me, it feels like reading 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:01.320 the tea leave and it's kind of like, you know, 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:03.560 everyone's always like when it's good, oh yeah, it means 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:05.000 that we're doing great, and when it's bad, we don't 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:09.000 actually pay that much attention. That's in pole but our 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:12.800 and another thing is just my basic experience, you know, 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:15.080 in Auckland Central in twenty twenty, I was put behind 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:16.360 on all the poles, and then of course we ended 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:19.320 up making history because the real poll is people realizing 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:20.920 not to watch the poles. But we are the poles, 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:23.120 we have agency, and we can actually change things here. 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:25.320 But I guess to try and read the tea leaves 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:27.760 and the vibes that are out there. The sense that 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:31.640 I'm getting from folks across the country is people are 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:35.040 much like as we're discussing around zorns, when people are 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:41.680 looking for what the next iteration of our economic framework 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.160 looks like. People know that the wheels are falling off 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:47.360 of the way that things are currently operating. So there's 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:50.320 obviously a heck of a lot of frustration. And I'm 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:52.800 really proud to be co leading a party that is 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:55.720 putting genuine solutions on the table. And this is about 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:58.760 also understanding the kind of fundamental principles of the Green 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:02.480 Party too, because it's a moral panic that I get 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:04.840 asked about every few months or so where people are like, oh, 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.439 you're talking about social policies. That's not Green Party stuff. 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:09.520 Your name is green, your color is green. So just 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.080 to give you some insight, the Green Party or Green 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:14.000 parties all around the world have the same four core 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:16.600 charter principles. What differentiates the Green Party in Altered or 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:18.440 in New Zealand is a recognition of ten tooth your 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:22.560 waiting is our foundational constitutional text. From that flows firstly 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:26.160 the notion of ecological responsibility. Resources are finite, even those 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:28.840 resources that do regenerate need time and space and God 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:32.160 forbids and planning Shane Jones in order to regenerate. If 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:34.560 you accept that as the first principle, that makes you 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:37.200 know in terms of the flow on effects for society, 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:39.480 it makes sense to go, well, we need to share 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:42.840 those resources in a somewhat fair, just and reasonable and 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:46.280 rational way. That's known as social responsibility or social justice 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:48.679 on the internet. The third is appropriate decision making. We 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.120 like devolving decision making powers down to the level where 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:53.080 it actually affects people. It's why I'm such a massive 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.520 nerd for local government. And the fourth is non violence. 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:58.320 Of course we're happies and we don't like going to war, 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:01.600 but if you dig into that little bit deeper, it's 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:05.159 basically about how do you create these systems and settings 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:08.080 and blueprints and ways of operating as a country and 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:13.680 governance and making decisions that don't neglect people or their perspectives, 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:15.800 so that further down the track they go, this thing 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:17.600 doesn't work for me, and I want to uproot the 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:18.200 entire thing. 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:18.800 Do you reckon? 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:20.320 The Greens have bounced back. 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.679 I mean, yeah, we're back, baby, But I think I 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:29.159 think that you know, my aspirations, our aspirations as a party, 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:32.640 will not be met until we live in a country 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:36.159 where every child is able to live a good life, 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:40.280 until our rivers are clean, and you know, our native 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.480 wildlife is flourishing. It was utterly mind lying to me 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:46.240 to be in a discussion or a debate or whatever 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:48.640 you want to call it the other day with an 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:51.240 act Party MP where you know, the proposition of bringing 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:54.480 back the more was on the table through genetic engineering, 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:57.520 and it's like, yeah, cool, like novel whatever, get it? Yeap, 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:00.879 science is awesome, but like, we're putting our eggs in 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:05.400 the basket of something that literally sounds like Jurassic Park. Meanwhile, 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:09.639 seventy five percent of our current native wildlife is at 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:13.919 risk of extinction. The government is approving and fast tracking 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:17.400 coal mines and kiwi habitats and cutting predator free twenty 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:21.200 fifty and Department of Conservation funding make it make sense. 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.400 But mama's got a lot of meat on. Look. Finally, 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:28.359 if Chris Luckson called you tomorrow, he said, look, I've 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:31.639 had a good look at your green badga. Not bad, 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:34.360 but I'll let you pick one thing to implement tomorrow. 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:37.320 And he's got a genie out the back, so don't 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:38.640 worry about logistics. 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:41.399 What would you choose? I think it has to be 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:43.400 the wealth tax as a starting point. You know, if 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:47.040 we're talking about economic transformation and fairness, which is deeply 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:50.439 into related to climate justice, then we need tax reform. 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:53.159 And regardless of whatever side of the political spectrum that 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:55.680 you're on at the moment, as the IID themselves said, 0:19:55.800 --> 0:20:01.800 and you know they're not politically beholden, the visible, rational, 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:04.840 mature political debate at the moment is not if we 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:07.040 have text reform, it's how we do tax reform. 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:13.280 Thanks for joining us, Chloe. Thank you. That's it for 0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:16.560 this episode of the Front Page. You can read more 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:20.720 about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzid Herald 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:24.480 dot co dot enz The Front Page is produced by 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:28.200 Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also our sound engineer. 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:33.280 I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the front page on iHeartRadio 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:37.040 or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:39.480 for another look behind the headlines.