1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: Kiyota owned Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, 2 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. Should 3 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: the ultra wealthy pay more tax? It's a debate that's 4 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: continued for decades, even centuries, from ancient Athens to present day. 5 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: The idea has been a constant when it comes to 6 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:34,639 Speaker 1: addressing inequality, yet no government in the last few decades 7 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: has been brave enough to impose one. It's a staple 8 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: of the Green Party's proposed budget, which promises bold moves 9 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: to make sure everyone has a warm home, decent ki 10 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,959 Speaker 1: and the care and support for a good life. But 11 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: who pays and is leaning even more left than center 12 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: doing wonders for the party's polling. Today on the Front 13 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: Green Party co leader Chloe's Swarbrick is with us to 14 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: discuss whether it's time for the wealthy to fund the. 15 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 2: Rest of us. 16 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: First off, Chloe, your Green's on Tour road show is 17 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: taking the party's Green budget directly to communities. What are 18 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: the most common concerns or questions or stuff raised with you? 19 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 3: People know that the wheels are falling off. You know, 20 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 3: if you diagnose the problem of the world that we're 21 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 3: living in today or the country that we're living in today. 22 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 3: You know, half a million New Zealanders are using food 23 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 3: banks every single month, one hundred and ninety one New 24 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 3: Zealanders or leaving the country every single day, and a 25 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 3: pharicle correctly two thirds of them are between the ages 26 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 3: of eighteen to forty five. If Nicola Oillis has concerns 27 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,199 Speaker 3: about the aging population and the challenges that may face 28 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 3: in terms of fiscal propositions for us, then we need 29 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 3: to actually be having sensible, rational conversations. And that was 30 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 3: just only underscored by the iid's Long Term Insights briefing 31 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 3: from a few weeks ago, which told us that the 32 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 3: rational conversation and politics if we change the tax system, 33 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,919 Speaker 3: it's how we change the tax system to make things fairer. 34 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 3: But look, you don't need to be an economist to 35 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 3: know that things are pretty dire and pretty diabolical out 36 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 3: there at the moment, and New Zealanders are feeling it 37 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 3: every single day. So I'm also really part of the 38 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 3: fact that we've been going out there and saying we'll 39 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 3: not here to complain an solidarity with those complaints, but 40 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 3: also to put some solutions on the table. So for us, 41 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 3: let's looked like obviously free early childhood education, free dentistry, 42 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 3: free GPS in the primary healthcare space, and also helping 43 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 3: the transition into a climate resilient economy, because you can't 44 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 3: just be talking about climate adaptation without also talking about 45 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 3: how we curb our climate changing emissions. And this government's 46 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 3: making some deeply irresponsible and frankly stupid decisions with, for example, 47 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 3: the two hundred million dollars that it's decided to invest 48 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 3: in new fossil fuel subsidies. It's taxpayer money. Yeah, so the. 49 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: Party's promising you mentioned, free early childhood education, free dental care, 50 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: free GP visits. I mean, what do you say to 51 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: critics who find all of this to be fiscally unrealistic? 52 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 3: Say that if we were advocating for or fighting for 53 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 3: free compulsory education or free hospitals, these days would be 54 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 3: called the exact same thing. It'd be called wasteful spending, 55 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 3: would be called Marxists, and all the rest come at us. 56 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 3: The reality is that we've done really big things in 57 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 3: the past, and the nineteen thirties and forties, after World 58 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 3: Wars and the Great Depression, we came together as a 59 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 3: country and decided to build a nation which looked like 60 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 3: the foundations of public health care, public education, and public housing. 61 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 3: And we paid for that responsibly by higher taxes on 62 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 3: those who had profited handsomely during a time of hardship 63 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 3: for many. Right now, we're in a situation where the 64 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 3: top one percent in this country hold twenty three percent 65 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 3: of all of the country's wealth, and IRD research from 66 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 3: twenty twenty three told us that the top three hundred 67 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 3: eleven households pay an effective tax rate less than half 68 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 3: of that of the average New Zealander. It's not fair. 69 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 3: And when are we going to be able to have 70 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 3: a rational political debate about how we fix and change 71 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 3: these things? I mean, there's a reason that the Conservatives 72 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 3: on the other sid out of the political debate and 73 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 3: not even willing to engage in the terms of this debate. 74 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 3: They simply want to shut it down. And that should 75 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 3: tell New Zealanders everything that they need to know. I'd 76 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 3: also add that in the government's first hundred days, one 77 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 3: of the first things that it did, as quietly as 78 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 3: it possibly could was revoke or appeal the enabling legislation 79 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 3: to require id to report on the fairness or on 80 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 3: fairness of our tax system. One the way there is 81 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 3: I think Nobel Peace Prize winning economists have recently called 82 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 3: for a global tax on the ultra wretch, arguing that 83 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 3: even a modest two percent wealth tax on billionaires, say 84 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 3: not even just millionaires, billionaires could raise substantial revenue internationally. Now, 85 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 3: how does the Green parties proposed wealth tax compare? And 86 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 3: do you see new zeeraltters having a kind of a 87 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 3: leadership role in this global argument at the moment. I mean, 88 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 3: we absolutely could be taking leadership position if we want 89 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 3: to do. Unfortunately, I think with this current government we're 90 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 3: saying far more of a shredder than we are any 91 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 3: kind of vision for the nation and that we'd want 92 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 3: to build. And this is the point that I made 93 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 3: in the budget debate. You know, this kind of cut, cut, 94 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,679 Speaker 3: cut after callous cut, whether it's in conservation or frontline 95 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 3: of what's necessary for communities or climate resilience or adaptation 96 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 3: or whatever. It's not only cruel and unusual, but it's 97 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 3: not how you build a country, it's how you break one. 98 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 3: And that's where I kind of come back to those 99 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 3: basic economic principles. You know, it's really deeply ironic and 100 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 3: profoundly nonsensical for the government to be talking out one 101 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 3: side of its mouth about productivity and growth while actively 102 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 3: kneecapping precisely those things with its fiscal strategy, where it 103 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 3: is pulling back on government investment and the things that 104 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 3: drive that productivity and that growth, let alone fair distribution 105 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 3: of those things. But to your question on how our 106 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 3: tax proposals would work, so we put on the table 107 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 3: a proposal for a wealth tax which would only apply 108 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 3: to the top approximate three percent in this country. So 109 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 3: for anyone with an individual net wealth over two million dollars, 110 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 3: so for a couple, it's over four million, and that's 111 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 3: net wealth, so it's minus obviously your mortgages. Ratherwise, you'd 112 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 3: pay a two point five percent tax above that term 113 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 3: million dollars net wealth individually, and doing that along the 114 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 3: suite of other reforms, and using debt sensibly to actually 115 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 3: pay for productive investment in our infrastructure, as opposed to 116 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 3: the tax cuts of Nicola Willis, which have generated zero 117 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 3: jobs and in fact have only continued to minimize the 118 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 3: opportunity for young New Zealanders. We can build an economy 119 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 3: that works for people and planet. 120 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 4: They are further entrenching a system, mister speaker, which sees 121 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,119 Speaker 4: our nurses, our firefighters, our teachers pay an effective tax 122 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 4: rate almost double that of the wealthiest in this country. 123 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 4: And not only is that so deeply unfair and so 124 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 4: deeply inequitable that it robs us of the very productivity 125 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 4: that they tell us that they care about, it robs 126 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 4: us of the investment that we could be making in 127 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 4: that infrastructure that all. 128 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 2: Of us need. 129 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 4: The fundamental problem with the economy and the tax system 130 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 4: in altero in New Zealand is that we over tax 131 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 4: work and we undertaxt indeed oftentimes do not tax at 132 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 4: all wealth. 133 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: We're hearing these terms rich ultra riches as a term 134 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: that I've heard pop up recently as well. How does 135 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: the Green Party define rich in this context of tax policy? 136 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: Where do we draw the line for who should pay more? 137 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 3: I mean, we've drawn the line and our proposals as 138 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 3: that termillion dollar figure, termillion dollars individual net wealth puts 139 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 3: in the top three percent in this country. So I 140 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 3: think you're doing pretty all right. And this is where 141 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 3: I think we just kind of need to come back 142 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 3: to these really fundamental points. Right there are very few 143 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 3: people in this country who could individually afford to pay 144 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 3: for the cost of building a school or a hospital, 145 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 3: or even closer to home for a loved one's cancer treatment. 146 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 3: When tragedy befalls us. That is why we pull our 147 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 3: resources together and we create this thing called a country. 148 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 3: Because we're not five million random individual people or running 149 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 3: around this country doing our own thing. Actually need each 150 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 3: other and we can build this infrastructure by working together. 151 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean, maybe it's a bit of a 152 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 3: red hearing to try and define what we perceive rich 153 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 3: to be, but we've decided to draw the line in 154 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 3: terms of our wealth tax is currently at that two 155 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 3: million dollar net individual wealth. 156 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: What about Nan and Pop who bought say a villa 157 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: in Mount Eden for a ten of tomatoes in the 158 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: seventiges or something, and they're obviously going to be above that. 159 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 3: What happens there. Yeah, So in terms of people who 160 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 3: are you know, asset wealthyed but don't necessarily have the 161 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 3: cash flow, they would be able to have this eventually 162 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 3: paid off in the same way that rates can accumulate 163 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 3: against the kind of property to the point that it's 164 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 3: sold or the point at which somebody passes on. So 165 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 3: we'd have those same features in our wealth. 166 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: Tax critics often claim that higher taxes on wealth will 167 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: drive high net worth individuals to leave. 168 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 3: The country, and this is probably a few gimes, and 169 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 3: that's why we simply can't do anything about it. 170 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: No, No, what evidence do we have that something similar 171 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: wouldn't happen here? Like would there be some kind of 172 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: brain drain? I mean we're seeing one at the moment anyway, 173 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: that's kind of the point. But would we be seeing 174 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: different individuals leave and we don't mind them leaving, but 175 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: we want the young ends day. 176 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 3: It's frankly ludicrous. Look, I'm not going to pretend that 177 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 3: it is easy to change the tax system. Of course 178 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 3: it's not. But ease should not be the reason that 179 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 3: we do something. Fairness and equity and the fundamental principles 180 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 3: and values that we have as New Zealanders, that is 181 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 3: that we care about each other and the planet that 182 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 3: we live on should be the driving force behind why 183 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 3: we do things. And we've done people should one hundred 184 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 3: and we've done hard things in the past, So I mean, yeah, 185 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 3: just a lot of the arguments that are often floated around, 186 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 3: for example, Norway, at the top of my head, I 187 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 3: think it's there's approximately two hundred and thirty six thousand 188 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 3: millionaires and billionaires in Norway and there are approximately thirty 189 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 3: high profile individuals who made a big song and dance 190 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 3: about leaving the country as a result of their wealth 191 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 3: tax changes, and that resulted in a huge amount of hysteria. 192 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 3: Again a drop in the bucket in terms of the 193 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 3: reality of it. So I think we just need to 194 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 3: come back down to earth as far as this debate goes, 195 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 3: and ask ourselves why do people want to live here? 196 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 3: It shouldn't be a race to the bottom to shred 197 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 3: the social safety in there and the infrastructure that all 198 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 3: of us ultimately rely on. All the country falls apart 199 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 3: and people end up with less social cohesion and we 200 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 3: have more people sleeping rough down the bottom of Queen 201 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 3: Street outside of luxury stores. The reason that people should 202 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 3: want to live here is because of our great quality 203 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 3: of life, and we are losing that because we are 204 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 3: not investing in it. What about people? 205 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: And you've probably heard this one before as well, because 206 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: I've heard it a few times. I've worked hard to 207 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: get here. 208 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 3: I ask anyone, well, firstly, I would say the hard 209 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 3: working news are some of the hardest working New Zealanders 210 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 3: that I have met are single mothers working multiple jobs, 211 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 3: paying double the effective tax rate if the multi multi 212 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 3: millionaires and billionaires in this country. So yeah, I mean, 213 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 3: any politician who wants to claim to be fighting for 214 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 3: the hard working New Zealanders should be fighting for those 215 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 3: who make their income from work, not from near wealth accumulation. 216 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: By the way, I read some critique about the so 217 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: you've got this thing five thousand dollars per passenger private 218 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: jet tax proposing, and I've read something that's somewhere that said, look, 219 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: it'll it'll force people to fly commercial or something. And 220 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: I actually laughed out loud at that because these people 221 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: are not like five thousand dollars to me, for instance, 222 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but that's I don't have 223 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 1: that total will really do you know what I mean? 224 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: But these people who have private jets, I'm going to 225 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: say they will drop that on a lunch aind of 226 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:43,199 Speaker 1: some things, so. 227 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 3: Little in the multiples of that that it costs they 228 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 3: actually use the private jet to get here in the position. 229 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, do you have any data or any 230 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: idea how many of those private jet passengers are actually 231 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: coming here? Every month. 232 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, every year. I believe it's between two hundred and 233 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 3: fifty to three hundred, so it's not that many. But again, 234 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 3: this is about kind of drawing a line in the 235 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 3: sand or making a point of principle, because we've seen 236 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 3: similar policies applied in other jurisdictions. I just think that 237 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 3: it is insane that we are at a point in 238 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 3: time where regular people, low income, middle income, regular people 239 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 3: are trying their best to use reusable straws and reusable cups, 240 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 3: and billionaires are allowed to set the planet on fire. 241 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 3: That's kind of the end of it for me. 242 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Well, Jeff Bezos is wedding the other Oh yeah. 243 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: I was giving a close eye on that guest lest 244 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: thinking like, oh right, that's good to see Oprah there. 245 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: I mean, in New York City recently, attacks the rich 246 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: message helped Zoran Mumdani to win the Democratic mayoral primary. 247 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: Do you say this as a sign that public sentiment 248 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: is shifting globally in favor of wealth taxes. 249 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think there's a few things that we can 250 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 3: take from Zoran's win. The first, you know, I really 251 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 3: applaud the approach that he took post Trump's Win. He 252 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 3: went into communities within New York and the equivalents of 253 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:03,959 Speaker 3: kind of electorates or burrows or whatever they call them 254 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 3: over there, and he asked people why they had flipped 255 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 3: from the Democrats to voting for Trump, because that seems 256 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 3: to be a question that many of us in commentary 257 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 3: land are asking. And what he found, strangely enough, was 258 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 3: people citing the cost of living and basic economic issues 259 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,959 Speaker 3: and they felt as though they had voted for decades 260 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 3: and decades their entire lives for the Democrats to do 261 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 3: something about it, and they hadn't. So it was kind 262 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 3: of a hail Mary, something needs to change. So we're 263 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 3: just going to grasp for the closest thing that looks 264 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 3: like a meaningful transformation or a meaningful change there. And 265 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 3: that is why he ended up coming out with such 266 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 3: strong fundamental economic policies of how you basically rebuild society, 267 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 3: of how you rebuild communities, of how you provide people 268 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 3: with actual economic freedom which then results in those social freedoms. 269 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 3: So you know, will be completely transparent about the fact 270 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 3: that Baquard I was at university, I was enamored by 271 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 3: the idea of libertarianism, which is actually the ideology encapsulated 272 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,719 Speaker 3: best by the activity right now, because I was like, oh, yeah, 273 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 3: course it makes sense. We'll just get to run around, 274 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 3: live our own lives, don't interrupt other people doing their 275 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:07,839 Speaker 3: own thing. But the more that I thought about it, 276 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 3: and I read a second book, you then start to 277 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 3: realize that that social freedom is allsory. It's not real 278 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 3: if you don't have access to the material basics to 279 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 3: be able to participate in society to survive, let alone 280 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 3: to thrive. So that's where he came out, obviously with 281 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 3: the kind of tax the rich stuff, but also those 282 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 3: basic propositions for free public transport services, for free early childhood. 283 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. 284 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 3: I think that what that tells us is in a 285 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 3: nutshell tempered centrism which has failed people for decades, for 286 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 3: forty decades, as they're being subjected to trackle down economics 287 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 3: is a breeding ground for effectively right wing radicalism. And 288 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 3: the antidote to that is to ensure that everybody has 289 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 3: their basic needs met. It's not rocket science. 290 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 2: On our numbers, the opposition parties Labor, the Greens, Antipart 291 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 2: and Maldi would be in a position to govern if 292 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 2: an election was held today. Let's break the numbers down. 293 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 2: National is on thirty point seven points. That's down two 294 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 2: point two on our last poll in March. Labor is 295 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 2: a head of National sitting on thirty three point two. 296 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 2: That's a slight increase of zero point nine. The Greens 297 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 2: into Party Mardi are both up. The Greens one point 298 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 2: six points to eleven point six while to Party Mardi 299 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 2: has nudged up zero point five to five point five 300 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 2: percentage points. 301 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: Well, the Green Party is currently polling really well. 302 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 3: We can go high. 303 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: The double digits now, which is I mean, this far 304 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: out from election isn't too bad, all right, and that's 305 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: ahead of ACT in New Zealand. First in the recent 306 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: post fresh Water and ourn z Read research polls, Rather, 307 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: what do you attribute this surge and support to. 308 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 3: First thing, I say, I'm always so reticent to provide 309 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 3: commentary on poles. I know, me, it feels like reading 310 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 3: the tea leave and it's kind of like, you know, 311 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 3: everyone's always like when it's good, oh yeah, it means 312 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 3: that we're doing great, and when it's bad, we don't 313 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 3: actually pay that much attention. That's in pole but our 314 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 3: and another thing is just my basic experience, you know, 315 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 3: in Auckland Central in twenty twenty, I was put behind 316 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 3: on all the poles, and then of course we ended 317 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 3: up making history because the real poll is people realizing 318 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 3: not to watch the poles. But we are the poles, 319 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 3: we have agency, and we can actually change things here. 320 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 3: But I guess to try and read the tea leaves 321 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 3: and the vibes that are out there. The sense that 322 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 3: I'm getting from folks across the country is people are 323 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 3: much like as we're discussing around zorns, when people are 324 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 3: looking for what the next iteration of our economic framework 325 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 3: looks like. People know that the wheels are falling off 326 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 3: of the way that things are currently operating. So there's 327 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 3: obviously a heck of a lot of frustration. And I'm 328 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 3: really proud to be co leading a party that is 329 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 3: putting genuine solutions on the table. And this is about 330 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 3: also understanding the kind of fundamental principles of the Green 331 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 3: Party too, because it's a moral panic that I get 332 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 3: asked about every few months or so where people are like, oh, 333 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 3: you're talking about social policies. That's not Green Party stuff. 334 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 3: Your name is green, your color is green. So just 335 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 3: to give you some insight, the Green Party or Green 336 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 3: parties all around the world have the same four core 337 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 3: charter principles. What differentiates the Green Party in Altered or 338 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 3: in New Zealand is a recognition of ten tooth your 339 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 3: waiting is our foundational constitutional text. From that flows firstly 340 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 3: the notion of ecological responsibility. Resources are finite, even those 341 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 3: resources that do regenerate need time and space and God 342 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 3: forbids and planning Shane Jones in order to regenerate. If 343 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 3: you accept that as the first principle, that makes you 344 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 3: know in terms of the flow on effects for society, 345 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 3: it makes sense to go, well, we need to share 346 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 3: those resources in a somewhat fair, just and reasonable and 347 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 3: rational way. That's known as social responsibility or social justice 348 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 3: on the internet. The third is appropriate decision making. We 349 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 3: like devolving decision making powers down to the level where 350 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 3: it actually affects people. It's why I'm such a massive 351 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 3: nerd for local government. And the fourth is non violence. 352 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 3: Of course we're happies and we don't like going to war, 353 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 3: but if you dig into that little bit deeper, it's 354 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 3: basically about how do you create these systems and settings 355 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 3: and blueprints and ways of operating as a country and 356 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 3: governance and making decisions that don't neglect people or their perspectives, 357 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 3: so that further down the track they go, this thing 358 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 3: doesn't work for me, and I want to uproot the 359 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 3: entire thing. 360 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 2: Do you reckon? 361 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: The Greens have bounced back. 362 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, we're back, baby, But I think I 363 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 3: think that you know, my aspirations, our aspirations as a party, 364 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 3: will not be met until we live in a country 365 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 3: where every child is able to live a good life, 366 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 3: until our rivers are clean, and you know, our native 367 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 3: wildlife is flourishing. It was utterly mind lying to me 368 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 3: to be in a discussion or a debate or whatever 369 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 3: you want to call it the other day with an 370 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 3: act Party MP where you know, the proposition of bringing 371 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 3: back the more was on the table through genetic engineering, 372 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 3: and it's like, yeah, cool, like novel whatever, get it? Yeap, 373 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 3: science is awesome, but like, we're putting our eggs in 374 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 3: the basket of something that literally sounds like Jurassic Park. Meanwhile, 375 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 3: seventy five percent of our current native wildlife is at 376 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 3: risk of extinction. The government is approving and fast tracking 377 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 3: coal mines and kiwi habitats and cutting predator free twenty 378 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 3: fifty and Department of Conservation funding make it make sense. 379 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,400 Speaker 1: But mama's got a lot of meat on. Look. Finally, 380 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: if Chris Luckson called you tomorrow, he said, look, I've 381 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: had a good look at your green badga. Not bad, 382 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 1: but I'll let you pick one thing to implement tomorrow. 383 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: And he's got a genie out the back, so don't 384 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 1: worry about logistics. 385 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 3: What would you choose? I think it has to be 386 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 3: the wealth tax as a starting point. You know, if 387 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 3: we're talking about economic transformation and fairness, which is deeply 388 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 3: into related to climate justice, then we need tax reform. 389 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 3: And regardless of whatever side of the political spectrum that 390 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 3: you're on at the moment, as the IID themselves said, 391 00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 3: and you know they're not politically beholden, the visible, rational, 392 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 3: mature political debate at the moment is not if we 393 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 3: have text reform, it's how we do tax reform. 394 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Chloe. Thank you. That's it for 395 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: this episode of the Front Page. You can read more 396 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzid Herald 397 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: dot co dot enz The Front Page is produced by 398 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also our sound engineer. 399 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the front page on iHeartRadio 400 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow 401 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: for another look behind the headlines.