1 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: Toyota. 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a summer special of 3 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 2: The Front Page. The Ends at Herald's daily news podcast. 4 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 2: While The Front Page is on summer break, we're taking 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 2: a look back at some of the biggest news stories 6 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 2: and top rated episodes from the podcast in twenty twenty four. 7 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 2: New episodes will return on January thirteenth. In twenty eleven, 8 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 2: Herald on Sunday journalist David Fisher reported on what the 9 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 2: paper dubbed the Facebook Predator, an adult woman who had 10 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 2: been caught catfishing dozens of teenage boys in the South Island. 11 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 2: She would be named as Natalia Burgers. Fisher covered the 12 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 2: Burgess case for months before she eventually went to prison 13 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 2: for two years as a result of her behavior. He 14 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 2: thought that was the end of it until two years ago, 15 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 2: an email at The Blue revealed that Burgess returned to 16 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 2: her catfishing once she was free from prison. In the 17 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 2: latest series of The Herald's true crime series, Chasing Ghosts, 18 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 2: Fisher went back to re examine the case, see what 19 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 2: he missed back in twenty eleven and trying to get 20 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 2: Burgers to front up again on what she had done. 21 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 2: You can Listen to half of the first episode of 22 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 2: Chasing Ghosts the Puppeteer now and find the full series 23 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts. 24 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 1: This episode contains references to suicide. You can find the 25 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: links in our show notes to support services. Let me start. 26 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: In December twenty ten. It's Monday morning in Auckland, New 27 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: Zealand's largest city, and a cluster of young people are 28 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: waking to a nightmare. A young woman, Laura Jane West, 29 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: has been killed overnight in a car crash. She was twenty, 30 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: survived by a five year old daughter, Caylee. This was 31 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: devastating news for Laura's family, but the shock the grief 32 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: of losing. 33 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 3: Laura went much further. 34 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: Laura was bright, bubbly, vivacious, and like her sister's, very 35 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: pretty and popular, particularly online. When it came to Facebook, 36 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: Laura and her three sisters and their friends at times, 37 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 1: were a swirling whirlwind of excitement to the first generation 38 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: to truly embrace social media. Distance disappeared and they connected 39 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: with people across the country. Laura, dead at twenty, was 40 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: barely sixteen when she joined Facebook, and the years that 41 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: followed she built friendships and even discovered love online. So 42 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: when her sister Abby announced Laura's death on Facebook, the 43 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: impact the grief they went far beyond her immediate family. 44 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 4: The last night, at three am, Laura and May hopped 45 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 4: into a car with a guy they trusted and know 46 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 4: really well, who told them he was sober to stand 47 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 4: out to be alive. He was five times over the limit. 48 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 4: My party gole sister just wanted to forget and have 49 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 4: a good night out. On the way home, the driver 50 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 4: of the car chocked the corner at great speed and 51 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 4: lost control of the car, heading into the lamp post 52 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 4: rap be Begger. 53 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,239 Speaker 3: There have been tragedy enough in Laura West's family. 54 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: Just weeks earlier, the sisters Rachel, Abby and Becker shared 55 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: through Facebook that they had lost their dad. He was 56 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: one of the twenty nine men killed when the Pike 57 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: River mine on the West Coast exploded. And now Laura 58 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: dead too. A young life cut short just when it 59 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: was getting going. A daughter, Kaylee left without a mother. 60 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: It's a tragedy in every sense of the word, and 61 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: the Facebook post was filled quickly with tributes from those 62 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: who counted her as a friend if they'd never met 63 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: in real life. 64 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 5: R p. 65 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 3: Baby girl. 66 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 6: You were there for me always when Amy passed, And fuck, 67 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 6: I'm going to miss you like I do Amy every 68 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 6: fricking day. 69 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 5: I love you, Rest easy, little one, always missed, never 70 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 5: far from my heart. 71 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 6: Hey, my sirs, fucking miss you like crazy. 72 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: Love you so much. 73 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 6: Never going to forget you in my heart forever, Love you, bud. 74 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 7: R P. 75 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 3: Baby girl, I'm going to miss your big time. 76 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 6: See my God, I can't believe this is true. I 77 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 6: miss you, rest peace. Remember the time when I saw 78 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 6: your face. 79 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 3: I know you watch. 80 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 6: And my heart goes out to you and weekle. 81 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: Then there were those who learned more directly. In the 82 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: South Island, in a small town not far from christ 83 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: a grand mother called Bernie received a phone call when 84 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: her teenage daughter Emma had started making friends online. Bernie 85 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: had got on the phone to check them out, and 86 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: that's how she came to know Laura and Abby, discovering 87 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 1: through them a distant family connection. They called her Auntie 88 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: when they called or connected on a messenger. Emma was 89 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: the new founder cousin. So that day, December sixth, twenty ten, 90 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: remains fixed in their memory for the impact it had 91 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,799 Speaker 1: when a broken, distraught Abby rang to break the news 92 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: to Bernie. 93 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 8: Abby rung Mum and are a mess. So Laura is 94 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 8: dead and my mom was like, she was like, no, 95 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 8: she had a car creation and she dead. They took 96 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 8: it the ICU, but she didn't make it. Yeah, we 97 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 8: got the message. If only I got a message or 98 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 8: a phone call at the home saying she's dead. Your 99 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 8: cousin's dead and no you know that sent both of 100 00:05:58,160 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 8: us spiraling. 101 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: It was a crushing blow for the mother and daughter, 102 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 1: but especially for Emma. She had lost a friend, a 103 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: close friend, to suicide just months earlier, and a friend 104 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: who had died before that at a car crash that 105 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: was very similar to that which killed Laura. 106 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 8: That's what I went on a big bender because I yeah, no, 107 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,359 Speaker 8: I want a big bender. Then I broke my sobriety. 108 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 9: We just sat there numb and grieving, and we were 109 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 9: trying to help plan the funeral. We were we were 110 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 9: like trying to make the trip up north apparently too, 111 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 9: that's where it was happening. 112 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 8: Thank you, Yeah, everything, oh nine yards just to get 113 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 8: up there because I was made to carry the casket. 114 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 3: All these years down the track. 115 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: They can't shake the horror of losing so suddenly, such 116 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: a bright spark of life and a thoughtless drink drive 117 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: death early that Monday morning. For Sam Baker, who was 118 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: dating Abby. He remembers the distress and wanting to console 119 00:06:58,960 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: Laura's boyfriend. 120 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 7: I heard from my friend and he was very very upset. 121 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 7: He just read about it on Facebook. I think one 122 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 7: of the sisters had gotten in contact with him, or 123 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 7: it might have even been I don't know. I'm really 124 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 7: scratching my fourteen year old memory here, but there may 125 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 7: have been a mother Facebook page that was involved as well, 126 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 7: that reached out to my friend and said that, yeah, 127 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 7: very very sorry to tell you, but Laura's tragically passed away. 128 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,119 Speaker 7: You know, she loved you dearly. She wanted to build 129 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 7: this big life with you and everything. It's really really sad, 130 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 7: But feel free to keep in contact with us because 131 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 7: you know, you're like family to us. Like my mate, 132 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 7: he like he was going to buy a ring for 133 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 7: her and stuff, like they were really really locked in. 134 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 7: So when't he found the news. When I found the 135 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 7: news out from him, you know, I went up to 136 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 7: console him, but he was beside himself. It was really 137 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 7: quite horrible. 138 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: But there's a catch to the story, and that catch 139 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: is that Laura never existed. Her daughter Kaylee didn't exist. 140 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: There was no car, no car crash, there was no 141 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: death at all. Abby didn't exist. None of the sisters existed. 142 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: They were all characters created by one woman, a woman 143 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: who joined in the Facebook grief posting with a heartfelt 144 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: message that she knew wasn't true. 145 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 6: At twenty you have not even lived yet, my sweet girl. 146 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 6: Why is all I am asking? 147 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 2: You know? 148 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 6: I'm getting into a car with a drunk ass driver? 149 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 6: Is Wrongbabe? Rip Laura Jane West. You are going to 150 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 6: be missed and loved. 151 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: That post was written by Natalia Burgess. My name's David Fisher. 152 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: I'm an investigative journalist with the New Zealand Herald. I 153 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 1: first heard about Natalia a few months after this post 154 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: went up, back in twenty eleven. 155 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 3: I've written thousands of stories. 156 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: Over thirty five years in journalism, thousands of lives that 157 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: have touched mine and carried on into the future. 158 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,839 Speaker 3: In my life, come and go with the stories. 159 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: They have to tell, and then there are those stories 160 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: and people that come back. 161 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 3: This is one of those stories. 162 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: This is a story about Natalia Burgess, also known as 163 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: Laura West or Amy West, or Kaylie rose Becka, Julienne, 164 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: Abby William, Rachel Drent, and so many other names. There 165 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: were so many false identities Natalia Burgess created online and 166 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: infused with life. 167 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:32,679 Speaker 3: And histories and friendships. 168 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: The problem with Natalia's fancy world was how damaging it 169 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 1: became for those whose identity she used and for those. 170 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 3: Who believed she was real. 171 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:48,479 Speaker 1: Hearts were broken, trust was betrayed, someone died, and Natalia 172 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: went to prison. I never thought I'd be thinking of 173 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: this case again, but here I am in twenty twenty four, 174 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: thirty years after all this happened, and Natalia is back 175 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 1: of my life. Back then, she called herself the puppeteer, 176 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: and after all these years, she's still pulling all the strings, 177 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: and I'm looking for a way to cut her loose. 178 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: My journey with Natalia started in early twenty eleven. Back then, 179 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: I was working as the chief reporter for the Herald 180 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: on Sunday, a twenty two year veteran reporter and quite 181 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: a bit more veteran now. It's easy to forget how 182 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,959 Speaker 1: much has changed in just thirteen years and how different 183 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: technology was then. 184 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 3: Let me take you back to that time. 185 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: This was a time when MySpace and Bebo had just 186 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: passed their use by days as the big players and 187 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: online social media. Twitter hadn't really taken off in the mainstream, 188 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: and Facebook was still young enough and still quirky enough 189 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: that topic about its creation was a big player in 190 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: Hollywood's Ward season that year. There was no zoom and Skype. 191 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: Conversations were often about how I can see you, but 192 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: I can't hear you all the other way around. We 193 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: were only up to the iPhone four and the first 194 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: generation iPad. The idea of smartphones as an everyday part 195 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: of life had yet to be embedded in the mainstream. 196 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,559 Speaker 1: The Internet and social media may have started to infiltrate 197 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: our lives, but not in the all consuming way they 198 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: do now. The reason all this matters is the herold 199 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: On Sunday, where I worked, was a startup. People had 200 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: said it was crazy to launch a newspaper when the 201 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: whole news industry was going to shift online. But it worked, 202 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: and one reason for that was we worked harder and smarter, 203 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: finding every advantage that we could. One of those things 204 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: we got really good at very early in the piece 205 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: was mining these new social media sites like Facebook, for 206 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: information about the people using it and the connections they had. 207 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: That meant when the Press newspaper in christ Church reported 208 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: that a woman was using false Facebook identities to scam 209 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: teenage boys, I was perfectly placed to dig below the surface. 210 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: It took a week to identify in Natali Burgess as 211 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: that woman. It was a week of building evidence in 212 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: developing sources to the point where we could name her 213 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: and run her photograph on the front page of the 214 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: next edition. Over a year, Burgess used her multiple online 215 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: personalities to form Internet relationships with dozens of teenage boys 216 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: and men across the country. Almost forty boys at Saint Thomas, 217 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: at Canterbury School and christ Church were caught up. 218 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 3: Along with dozens of others. Many believed they were. 219 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: In relationships with attractive girls their own age. She would 220 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: arrange to pay for some to have their mobile phones 221 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: topped up with credit and they would spend hours through 222 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 1: the night talking to her. I'd later learn that Natali 223 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: was not just focused on one school. There were dozens 224 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 1: of young people and adults around the country that fell 225 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: into her orbit. One of those people was Sam Baker. 226 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: He heard earlier talking of his shock over Laura's death. 227 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: He was just thirteen when drawn into Natalia's world, all 228 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: the way from tiny Murchison, near the top of New 229 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: Zealand and South Island. It was once a gold mining town. 230 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: Now it's sought after for whitewater adventure sports, and it 231 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: is a tiny town. The last census put the population 232 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: at fewer than five hundred people. Small as it was, 233 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: the incident made Sam's world feel so much bigger, and 234 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 1: that's how he got mixed up in this. 235 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 7: I was up visiting a friend of mine who was 236 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 7: speaking to a girl that he'd been talking to quite 237 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 7: a while over online, and from what I was under 238 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 7: the impression of they were in an online relationship. At 239 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 7: the time, I just assumed that he had known who 240 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 7: previously and they were just communicating on an online platform. 241 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 7: But I didn't really that didn't occur to me to 242 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 7: press any do that. I was thirteen at the time 243 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 7: and he was a good friend of mine, so I 244 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 7: just thought really nothing of it. Bear in mind, when 245 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 7: I was thirty, he was sixteen. I'm from a small town, 246 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 7: so people from veering age groups just tend to hang 247 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 7: out with each other, I guess. But anyway, I was 248 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 7: talking to this girl who name happened to be Laura, 249 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 7: and I started yearning to all I was up to 250 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 7: seeing my mate and we just I don't know. I 251 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 7: just said, hey, hey, you gn you're good. Thanks. She 252 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 7: asked me what my name was, asked what her name was? 253 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 7: Asked her, you know how long they guys have been 254 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 7: friends talking to each other? She said maybe like a 255 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 7: year or so. And he's like, yeah, I met her online. 256 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 7: Can we get along? 257 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 8: Great? 258 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 7: It was, that's pretty cool, sweet as thought nothing of it. 259 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 7: He ended the call. We played a few games of Xbox, 260 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 7: as you do when you're thirteen years old, and then 261 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 7: I Sweet Home and Sweet Home for dinner, and then 262 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 7: to do homework and stuff. But anyway, I log into 263 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 7: my Facebook and I noticed that I have a free 264 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 7: request from a random girl who name. The full name 265 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 7: eludes me nowadays, but it was Rachel. I think her 266 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 7: name was Rachel. And I accepted it and messaged her. 267 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 7: I was like, hello, who are you? It was a 268 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 7: bit more colorful and that I was like hello, who 269 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 7: are you? She's like, hello, my name is Rachel. I 270 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 7: believe you were talking to my sister earlier and Laura. 271 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 7: I was listening to the conversation, and I thought you 272 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 7: had a cute voice. I was wondering, would you begin to, 273 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 7: I don't know, develop her friendship? And I was like, okay, cool. 274 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 7: Bearing in mind, I was thirteen years old in a 275 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 7: town of five hundred people. In my school, there were 276 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 7: one hundred and twenty kids in my classroom. I would 277 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 7: have been probably year seven, year eight at the time, 278 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 7: out of thirty of us. I think they were three girls, 279 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 7: So to be getting this sort of female attention, I 280 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 7: didn't really think twice about it. I just thought, oh 281 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 7: my god, there's a very attractive girl heading me up. 282 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: Natalia knew who had targeted demographic well. Her primary false 283 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: personality was a young woman called Laura West. Laura entered 284 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: Facebook age sixteen, at that time that Tari was. 285 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 3: Around twenty six. 286 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: Laura West was pretty with a bright and engaging smile. 287 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: She also seemed to be very popular where she went 288 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: on Facebook, she traveled with an engaging social circle. 289 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 3: Who liked Laura were. 290 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: Young and attractive women, and it seemed that they, like 291 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: any teenager, were trying to work out how they fitted 292 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: into the world and with others their own age. 293 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 3: So many came under their spell. 294 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: One of those boys was Ethan Williams, whose story is 295 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: pretty similar to Sam's. He was a few years older, 296 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: around fifteen when he first met Laura, and he too 297 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: was a small town boy raised in Montweka and Nelson, 298 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: the same general area where Sam lives. 299 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 5: So I think initially I met a girl called Laura online, 300 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 5: and I think this is probably in the early days 301 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 5: of Facebook or kind of towards the tail end of 302 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 5: the old Bebo social network when that existed, and it 303 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 5: was just one of those kind of random ads on Facebook. 304 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 5: She haded me, and I thought, yeah, oh why not, 305 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 5: you know, but there were there were about three or 306 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 5: four different people that you know, that were family of 307 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 5: this this Laura West that her last name was West. 308 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 3: That's right. 309 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 5: That added me as well. And I didn't want much 310 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 5: of it. And I guess as I probably said to you, well, 311 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 5: I wouldn't have set you at the time, but as 312 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,959 Speaker 5: I said, just a moment ago, being quite a naive Asia, 313 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 5: I didn't think much of it. And I think also 314 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 5: because catfishing wasn't particularly a well known phenomenon back then, 315 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 5: it wasn't something that ever crossed my mind. 316 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 3: Can you tell me how Laura presented herself. 317 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: I mean, who did you think you were communicating with online? 318 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 5: Yeah, I so it's a very good question. Let me 319 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 5: let me think about an answer. She presented as kind 320 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 5: of an attractive I think she was seventeen eighteen or 321 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 5: something around that sort of age, kind of a little 322 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 5: bit older than me, but you know, quite an attractive 323 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 5: young woman. You know, short blonde here and someone that 324 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 5: I thought, you know, she's she's quite attractive. I'll talk 325 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 5: to her if she's going to talk to me. And yeah, 326 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 5: that's kind of word snowballs. I suppose. 327 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: Ethan was fifteen when he started talking to Natalia, or 328 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: as he knew her, Laura West, and Sam was just 329 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: thirteen when he started dating her sister, Rachel. This was 330 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: in twenty ten. At this time, Natalia been twenty six 331 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: years old, is literally twice the age of Sam. I 332 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: remember being told once that the guide for age suitability 333 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: is to take your age, split it in two, add seven, 334 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: and the results at the youngest end of the sliding 335 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 1: scale that you should be on. You've probably heard something similar. 336 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 1: It's one of those unwritten rules of humanity. We all 337 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: just seem to know by that measure. Natalia shouldn't be 338 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: talking to anyone younger than twenty, or at least not 339 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: in the way she spoke with Sam and others his age. 340 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: But there's really only one equation that matters here, and 341 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: that is back in twenty ten, Sam is a child 342 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 1: and Natalia as an adult. And another thing to think 343 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 1: on is that Sam had no idea the girl who 344 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: contacted him online was twice his age. The voice he heard, 345 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: the photographs he saw were of a teenage girl, while 346 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: Laura West herself didn't exist. The photos belonged to a 347 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: real person. The photographs Natalia used wherever real woman could not. 348 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 1: This was someone Natalia did not know, but as Ethan says, 349 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 1: she knew the effect she could have with the photographs. 350 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 3: She had chosen. 351 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: Those boys at Saint Thomas and Canterbury, Sam, Ethan, their friends, 352 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 1: none of them. 353 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 3: Stood a chance. 354 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: At the age of thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, and some a 355 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: few years older. They were confronted with bright, vivacious Laura 356 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: and a coterie of friends who were intent on forming 357 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: bonds and exploring relationships. By the time I came along, 358 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 1: Natalia's online personas were well advanced, brought to life with 359 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: other stolen photographs taken from other people's social media pages. 360 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: Those characters were so well advanced that they had time 361 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: to form relationships, speak of love, contemplate marriage, and all 362 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: those other things teenagers do when they first fall head 363 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: over heels. Each of her characters was fully realized. Along 364 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: with photographs harvested online, Natalia had given them family connections 365 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: and personalities, breathing life and credibility into every false persona. 366 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: With some of them, she created family. Laura's sisters, as 367 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: we've heard, were Rachel, Becker and Abby. 368 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 3: It wasn't all playing out online either. As Natalia's characters 369 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 3: formed online friendships with schoolboys, she worked to take it 370 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 3: to the real world. 371 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 7: I think I had the first voice called with her, 372 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 7: maybe like a week into the relationship, and it was weird. 373 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 7: It was I don't know how she pulled it off. 374 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 7: Thinking back, I spoke to her Laura, and there was 375 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 7: another sister. I can't remember her name, but she was 376 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 7: a blonde girl and she worked at Pack and Save. 377 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 7: And I had a freeway chat with all three these girls, 378 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 7: and they told me how much of the nice boy 379 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 7: I think I am, and how I'm going to be 380 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 7: so perfect for the sister and they asked me like, 381 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 7: will you be my sister's boyfriend? Like these two girls 382 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 7: asked on her behalf like I've taken into the back 383 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 7: room so that they can give them the fifth degree, 384 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 7: and I was just like, yeah, all right, sweet, let's 385 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 7: do it. 386 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 3: There were phone calls and long conversations. 387 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: Evidence emerged of Natalia paying to top up phones so 388 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: she could speak for longer as Laura or Abby or 389 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: Becka or any of the other identities she manufactured, and 390 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:27,239 Speaker 1: even occasionally as herself as the real Natalia Burgess in 391 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 1: the shadow cast by her younger, glamorous friends. As I 392 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: said earlier, Natalia wasn't a teenager when she was talking 393 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 1: with all these kids, and it kind of reminds me 394 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: of Hollywood's tendency to cast old when casting teenagers like 395 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: Greece or nine O two and oer will Glee. Every 396 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: generation has some example of a grown adult playing young, 397 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: and Natalia was bringing that fantasy to life in her 398 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: own way. This was real life, though, and not a 399 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: Hollywood set. As I dug deeper, there was seriously disturbing 400 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: aspects to her interaction with those she met online as 401 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: she built her fictional world and populated it. She started 402 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: to develop it with whatever came to hand. Natalia even 403 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: attached real life people to false personas. After the Pike 404 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: Rivermind disaster, Laura West posted a memorial message with a 405 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: photograph of one of the miners who was killed. 406 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 4: I miss you and I will never stop loving you, 407 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 4: Rip Daddy. 408 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 3: It's one part of the story that Sam Baker remembers 409 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 3: all too well. 410 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 7: I grew up in Murchison. The tracity happened, I believe 411 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 7: in Greymouth. So Murchison and Greymouth for about two hours 412 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 7: from each other. And what happened was is I remember 413 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 7: there was a whole lot of light. This is way 414 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 7: before crowdfunding and go fund me were a thing. People 415 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 7: used to sort of reach out for donations and help 416 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 7: y Facebook pages and groups, and there was a Facebook 417 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 7: page called the Pipe Rivermind twenty nine and it was 418 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 7: people that could come together that were affected by the tragedy, 419 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 7: that could share photos and memories and maybe like people 420 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 7: that had a bit of money they wanted to donate 421 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 7: to a family that had been displaced because their father 422 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 7: a peerish they could you know, put down their bank 423 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 7: account details and receive donations. Laura started fabricating, making these 424 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 7: big giant like Facebook murals, I guess, like with this 425 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 7: Paul Bloke's photo, and then like the name up and lights, 426 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 7: and then the born day, the death day, and then 427 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 7: like your kids miss you dearly, we love you daddy, 428 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 7: like from Laura, from Rachel, from the other daughter and stuff. 429 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 7: It just all looked very very legit, very polished. And 430 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 7: then she had people from the community who they had 431 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 7: lost family members and the mind tragedy that were like 432 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 7: getting behind her, like, oh my god, we feel so 433 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 7: bad for you. You know who can help you out? 434 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 7: And then I believe she may have been putting down 435 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 7: a bank account and receiving donations from these people as 436 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 7: a like, I don't know, contribute into helping her get 437 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 7: back on her feet because she just lost her dad. 438 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 3: That feels pretty cold. 439 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, but at the time, what did you make of it? 440 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 3: Because this was the girl that you were dating, This 441 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 3: was her sister, Rachel. 442 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I was dating Laura's sister Rachel. 443 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 7: So at the time I felt horrible for them. It 444 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 7: was like, you, poor girl, that's horrible. So yeah, So 445 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 7: to get the time frame together, the Pipe River disaster 446 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 7: happen and then Laura died in the car crash. So 447 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 7: between Laura between the Pike River and Laura dying in 448 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 7: the car crash quotation marks I felt absolutely horrible for 449 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 7: these poor girls. 450 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: It wasn't the only time Natalia created false links to 451 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: a high profile death. When christ Church woman Emma Agney 452 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: was murdered, Natalia even went as far as setting up 453 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,959 Speaker 1: a memorial page in her personas, linking people she had 454 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: invented to people she had never met. In the relationships 455 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,439 Speaker 1: she was forming, they were becoming increasingly serious. Sam and 456 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 1: Ethan were far from the only ones caught up in this. 457 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: There were dozens of teenage boys who believed they were 458 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: in a romantic relationship with one of Natalia's personas, and 459 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 1: each one was smitten. Some thought they'd found the love 460 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: of their life, and when that was taken away, the 461 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: consequences were devastating. 462 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 2: You've just heard the first half of episode one of 463 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 2: Chasing Ghosts the Puppeteer. You can listen to the full 464 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 2: episode and the rest of the series on iHeartRadio or 465 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts.