Speaker 1: Kyoda.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. There are
Speaker 2: continued calls to tighten alcohol laws in New Zealand. The
Speaker 2: growing trend of online deliveries has made advocates worried, with
Speaker 2: a study finding a large portion of alcohol deliveries bypassed
Speaker 2: ID checks. Meanwhile, Auckland's new alcohol policy starting December ninth,
Speaker 2: will reduce sales hours and titan regulations on new liquor licenses,
Speaker 2: and across the Ditch, New South Wales is looking to
Speaker 2: introduce new rules to regulate pre mixed alcoholic beverages, especially
Speaker 2: those with candy like flavors and colorful packaging. So should
Speaker 2: there be more restrictions around the sale and advertising of alcohol.
Speaker 1: In New Zealand?
Speaker 2: And Today on the Front Page we speak to the
Speaker 2: New Zealand Alcohol Beverages Council Executive director of Virginia Nichols
Speaker 2: to talk us through the industry's reaction to the tightening
Speaker 2: of laws around their products. But first we speak to
Speaker 2: Alcohol Health Watch executive director Andrew Galloway.
Speaker 1: On where we should scale up restrictions.
Speaker 2: First, First off, Andrew, do you think laws around alcohol
Speaker 2: are good enough in New Zealand.
Speaker 3: That's a really big question, and in short, my answer
Speaker 3: would have to be known. I think we can look
Speaker 3: back at previous reviews that have recommended phasing out of
Speaker 3: alcohol sponsorship, marketing and advertising in twenty ten by the
Speaker 3: Law Commission. That was further picked up by others. There
Speaker 3: was a Ministerial forum in twenty fourteen that recommended the
Speaker 3: same and again in the Government Inquiry into Mental Health
Speaker 3: and Addictions in twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, which recommended that
Speaker 3: they first two reviews should be picked up. So I
Speaker 3: think around that issue marketing, sponsorship and advertising, no, and
Speaker 3: more widely, we've just done a research project into remote
Speaker 3: and rapid delivery of alcohol, and again you'd have to
Speaker 3: say that our research highlights the fact that we probably
Speaker 3: don't have good enough regulation for that aspect.
Speaker 2: Tell me about that research undertaken by Alcohol Health Watch
Speaker 2: into the delivery of alcohol.
Speaker 1: What did you find.
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I mean there was a bit
Speaker 3: of interest and it popped up in the media twenty
Speaker 3: eighteen twenty twenty, but it really remote and rapid delivery
Speaker 3: grew rapidly when we had COVID and for obvious reasons,
Speaker 3: and rapid or remote delivery became quite popular for a
Speaker 3: range of commodities, but alcohol was one and it grew
Speaker 3: the amount of people using that facility grew, So we
Speaker 3: had a concern at Alcohol Health Watch. One of my
Speaker 3: team members got wine delivered and it was just left
Speaker 3: on a doorstep, and really, her thought, is an alcohol
Speaker 3: policy researcher, was, I wonder how I spread that is.
Speaker 3: So we did a test and we tested sixteen companies,
Speaker 3: from big supermarkets to rapid delivery tech based companies to
Speaker 3: just general retailers, and the results are really alarming. Seventy
Speaker 3: three percent of alcohol orders did not request age verification
Speaker 3: on delivery. All you have to do in most cases
Speaker 3: is tick two boxes and that satisfies the law that
Speaker 3: you've checked age. But as we know, if you're a
Speaker 3: young person under eighteen, you're probably not going to check
Speaker 3: the box if you want alcohol to say that you're
Speaker 3: under eighteen. So it's not a full brief system by
Speaker 3: any stretch. Forty nine percent of alcohol orders were left
Speaker 3: unattended to contact us at the door. And while contactless
Speaker 3: deliveries might have been okay during COVID, for obvious reasons.
Speaker 3: We don't think alcohol, being New Zealand's most harmful drugs,
Speaker 3: should be left at the door of people's homes. We've
Speaker 3: got research from New Zealand which shows remote delivery extends
Speaker 3: a drinking occasion and that really stands to common sense.
Speaker 3: If you're if you're polished off a few and you
Speaker 3: can't drive to the bottle store, it would give you
Speaker 3: the opportunity to get more. And their research backs that
Speaker 3: are all one hundred percent of companies have wonderful policies
Speaker 3: that say this is what we're going to do. Eighty
Speaker 3: seven point five percent of the time they broke their
Speaker 3: own restricted items policy. So it really did show when
Speaker 3: you have a regulatory system with no checks and balances,
Speaker 3: there is the potential for harm. And that's what we're
Speaker 3: concerned about. We're not saying it's not a service that
Speaker 3: shouldn't be available. I think we need to look across
Speaker 3: the ditch in Australia where you might have to scan
Speaker 3: your ID and have it verified before it's delivered. You
Speaker 3: could have a period of time where there's a standdown
Speaker 3: so that we're not getting that extension of a drinking
Speaker 3: occasion leading to harm. So there's some simple things we
Speaker 3: can do. We're one of the few countries I think
Speaker 3: there were seventy one out of seventy three countries we
Speaker 3: looked at in the study that had rules around us,
Speaker 3: and we're certainly an outlier in alterio on New Zealand.
Speaker 3: So that is another reason why we think it's time
Speaker 3: to look at the laws around alcohol.
Speaker 2: We'll speaking of Australia, what do you make of the
Speaker 2: idea of restricting pre mixed alcoholic drinks? In New South
Speaker 2: Wales they're looking at new guidelines that will regulate alcoholic
Speaker 2: versions of soft drinks, for example, and ready to drink beverages, specifically,
Speaker 2: wanting to crack down on confectionery flavored drinks or colorful designs.
Speaker 1: Is that something that we should look at here.
Speaker 3: I think we should have the ability and I looked
Speaker 3: jealously at Australia and some of their ability to make
Speaker 3: regulations in state governments and this is New South Wales.
Speaker 3: The publicity on this has been really interesting. I don't
Speaker 3: think it struck a chord in the right way, but
Speaker 3: many people going, oh, now we've got the Health Agency
Speaker 3: kind of tasting products to make sure they're okay. For us,
Speaker 3: but again in Australia, alcohol very similar to New Zealand
Speaker 3: is a big problem. What they found is they've had
Speaker 3: a product called hard Solo, which replicates a soft drink.
Speaker 3: We're not saying that these products can't exist, but it
Speaker 3: certainly had an appeal to minus and they considered the
Speaker 3: formal regulatory actions and to prohibit the class of liquor products.
Speaker 3: And you know in New South Wales, the liquor and
Speaker 3: gaming have said there's a comment thary that highly popular
Speaker 3: softwarets among young people and the vulnerability of miners of
Speaker 3: alcohol related injuries and diseases really does give them cause
Speaker 3: to think about it. We probably do need in New
Speaker 3: Zealand some kind of check on a product before it
Speaker 3: goes to market. So unfortunately we end up being a
Speaker 3: bit of a dumping ground, given how close we are
Speaker 3: to Australia, and given many of those companies of Global
Speaker 3: Bilson's dumped a whole lot of product that were basically
Speaker 3: ruled not appropriate in Australia, and those are great bubblegum
Speaker 3: and rainbow Sherbert flavored kind of vodka premixes that came
Speaker 3: on the shelf here and it got picked up by
Speaker 3: a community agency called Communities Against Alcohol. They made a
Speaker 3: complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority. The Advertising Standards Authority
Speaker 3: chair noted that great Bubblegum and Rainbow Sherbert and the
Speaker 3: Facebook advertisements that happened about them, but there's no check
Speaker 3: on the way and before they put on the shelf,
Speaker 3: you know, they make reasonable decisions, but the system itself
Speaker 3: relies on complaints, so I've no one actually sees it
Speaker 3: that does something about it. These products can be on
Speaker 3: the market for some time.
Speaker 4: So we did a very simple study. What we did
Speaker 4: is that we record one hundred and twenty five university students.
Speaker 4: We just asked them to scroll their goal on their
Speaker 4: favorite social medias for thirty minutes and text screenshots for
Speaker 4: whatever Alco advertisement they've seen and then send.
Speaker 3: It back to us.
Speaker 4: So the result is very shotkick because the majority of
Speaker 4: these young people they see at least one advertisement in
Speaker 4: the thirty minutes period and on actually on average they
Speaker 4: see one advertisement every two three minutes. This is very
Speaker 4: Shotkicks result.
Speaker 2: Auckland Council has adopted its local alcohol policy for the city,
Speaker 2: coming into effect on December nine. It'll mean bottle shops
Speaker 2: and supermarkets across the region won't be able to sell
Speaker 2: alcohol after nine pm. At the moment you can buy
Speaker 2: it up to eleven pm. What difference do you think
Speaker 2: those couple of hours will make.
Speaker 3: The evidence tells us that the more available alcohol is,
Speaker 3: the more harm that's caused. And when we had so
Speaker 3: I'm old enough to remember, and I worked in Oakland
Speaker 3: Council when we had twenty four our licensing and that
Speaker 3: was a disaster, really having people out drinking when people
Speaker 3: are coming to work or trying to go to work,
Speaker 3: or people are opening businesses and people are still out
Speaker 3: enjoying the late night economy that has kept going into
Speaker 3: the next day was not a good mix of uses
Speaker 3: of a CBD. So I'm pleased we don't have twenty
Speaker 3: four our licensing. But when that changed, and that changed
Speaker 3: as a result of the sale and supply of alcoholic
Speaker 3: twenty twelve, which in post national maximum house, there was
Speaker 3: a significant impact on alcohol harm. So even just that
Speaker 3: reduction from twenty four hours to four am, which is
Speaker 3: still pretty late for un licenses, that saw a significant
Speaker 3: reduction in crime and a significant reduction in alcohol related presentations.
Speaker 3: That very same three of research tells us that we
Speaker 3: will see a reduction in things like crime alcohol related
Speaker 3: presentations to emergency departments. From the modest change from eleven
Speaker 3: pm to nine pm for retail sale in Auckland. One
Speaker 3: thing we are concerned about is the remote delivery may
Speaker 3: office gate or limit some of those benefits. The imputus
Speaker 3: for government to do something around remote sales is probably
Speaker 3: also compounded by the fact that there might be a
Speaker 3: loophole well.
Speaker 2: The annual Ministry of Health, a New Zealand Health survey
Speaker 2: released last month showed hazardous drinking or harmful alcohol consumption
Speaker 2: among adults has actually declined by four point seven percentage
Speaker 2: points in the past four years to sixteen point six percent.
Speaker 2: Do you find that there is a decrease in hazardus
Speaker 2: drinking among adults?
Speaker 3: I agree, I mean, I think those statistics are great
Speaker 3: and it's not to say we don't have a problem anymore,
Speaker 3: but it's certainly hitting in the right direction. Chelsea, and
Speaker 3: I think, not wanting to dismiss the celebration, if you like,
Speaker 3: we could have on that change in behavior. If you
Speaker 3: look at those rates of sixteen point six percent of
Speaker 3: people reporting having consumed alcohol hazardously in the last year,
Speaker 3: that's actually an increase, So it's about seven hundred and
Speaker 3: twenty thousand adults as opposed to six hundred and seventy
Speaker 3: thousand last year. So while we are seeing that rate
Speaker 3: come down, and it has come down significantly over that
Speaker 3: five year period, it was a small rise to seven
Speaker 3: hundred and twenty thousand from sixty seventy. So I think
Speaker 3: it's kind of plateau and of the view that we
Speaker 3: still need to implement some further policy. So we're talking
Speaker 3: about hazardous drinking and harm can occur even at moderate levels.
Speaker 3: We're talking about cancer, We're talking about disease that can
Speaker 3: occur at really low level. So I think the more
Speaker 3: we manage to cut down not only consumption of alcohol
Speaker 3: itself but hazardous drinking, the more we all stand to benefit.
Speaker 2: It's difficult, isn't it, because it's a fine line between
Speaker 2: targeting problem drinkers but also not inconveniencing those who like
Speaker 2: a temple every now and then.
Speaker 3: Right, that could be well a line that you hear
Speaker 3: a lot, and it's a line you hear a lot
Speaker 3: from the alcohol industry. When we look at minimum Munit price,
Speaker 3: which has been imposed in Scotland very successfully and let's
Speaker 3: be honest. They've imposed minimum munit price because Scotland can't
Speaker 3: put up excise taxes. They're part of the Westminster system,
Speaker 3: so they don't have the sovereignty or the ability to
Speaker 3: impose excise tax but they did put in a minimum
Speaker 3: munit price. Minim immunit price lifts the price only of
Speaker 3: the really cheapest alcohol, and that's the alcohol we know
Speaker 3: appeals most to young people and it appeals most to
Speaker 3: dependent drinkers. So they've seen a thirteen percent reduction in
Speaker 3: alcohol related death. So I think it's often a line
Speaker 3: you hear from alcohol industry that we don't want to
Speaker 3: impose more restrictions on the responsible drinkers. But actually, if
Speaker 3: you apply alcohol policy, well, you can limit the most
Speaker 3: harmful drinking while really not acting on people who are
Speaker 3: enjoying it moderately, loately and with less or no harm.
Speaker 3: And the other thing I think that is worth noting
Speaker 3: is there's really high public support. I think the public
Speaker 3: are quite aware of the issue that is alcohol, and
Speaker 3: there's public support for things like banning alcohol sponsorship at
Speaker 3: sporting events or making sure that the alcohol industry isn't
Speaker 3: involved in developing government policies. Or increasing the price. To
Speaker 3: be honest, there's reasonable public support on increasing price, so
Speaker 3: I think there's public support for it. There's a wealth
Speaker 3: of evidence in terms of the health burden and the
Speaker 3: social and economic cost of alcohol. I think we really
Speaker 3: do have a solution to reducing the burden on both
Speaker 3: police emergency services, hospital time and also impacting positively health
Speaker 3: and well being of people in Alda.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Andrew and Chelsea.
Speaker 3: Great to be here again.
Speaker 1: For the industry side of this argument, we're joined now
Speaker 1: on the front.
Speaker 2: Page by New Zealand Alcohol Beverages Council Executive Director Virginia Nichols. Virginia,
Speaker 2: how does the alcohol and beverages industry respond to those
Speaker 2: calls for tighter regulations.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think the alcohol industry believes the current regulations,
Speaker 5: guided by the Sale and Supply of Alcohol Act for
Speaker 5: most regions are adequate to manage harm while allowing responsible
Speaker 5: businesses really to operate. I think that's the important thing there.
Speaker 5: There's a whole lot of other areas that the industry
Speaker 5: doesn't just have the actual legislation itself. Really, it's got
Speaker 5: many other areas as well. For instance, the Advertising Standards
Speaker 5: Authority has some pretty good. It's a voluntary code throughout
Speaker 5: the code for advertising promotion of alcohol that's been recently
Speaker 5: updated and that covers content and placement of all marketing.
Speaker 5: And the code also ensures that the content of advertising
Speaker 5: doesn't have strong or evident appeal to minors or encourage
Speaker 5: a responsible consumption of alcohol, and it's all about timing
Speaker 5: and placement, not to use anyone who appears to be
Speaker 5: under twenty five years of age. And we've also got
Speaker 5: a voluntary industry code for the ready to drink beverages
Speaker 5: which is RTDs, again ensuring that those below the legal
Speaker 5: purchasing age don't see those products. So there is a
Speaker 5: lot of legislation that's actually legislation and regulation that's out there.
Speaker 5: It's a highly regulated industry.
Speaker 1: Have you seen those guidelines being looked at in New
Speaker 1: South Wales?
Speaker 2: They could see restrictions there around those pre mixed RTD drinks.
Speaker 1: Could something like that happen here?
Speaker 5: Well, it is happening here, So it's really different. The
Speaker 5: New Zealand market's very different to the Australian market. As
Speaker 5: I say, we're very well regulated both with our legislation
Speaker 5: under A Section two thirty seven rarely. You can't a
Speaker 5: person commits an offense if in the course of carrying
Speaker 5: on a business that person, for instance, promotes or advertises
Speaker 5: alcohol in a manner aimed at or that has or
Speaker 5: is likely to have special appeal to minors, which is
Speaker 5: a situation in Australia. That plus, any new product that's
Speaker 5: launched in New Zealand as well has to go through
Speaker 5: a pre vetting system and that can be done with
Speaker 5: the Association of New Zealand Advertisers. What the Advertising Standards
Speaker 5: Authority then does if there is something that's occurring that
Speaker 5: is not appropriate with advertising, someone can complain to the
Speaker 5: Advertising Standards Authority. There aren't a lot of complaints for alcohol.
Speaker 5: If there are, most of them are actually agreed before
Speaker 5: they have to go to the particular committee. So again,
Speaker 5: and as to say, there is a voluntary industry code
Speaker 5: for RTGs and cans. So the legislation in New Zealand
Speaker 5: is actually very strong in this regard.
Speaker 2: In Auckland, from December ninth, you won't be able to
Speaker 2: buy alcohol from a bottle shop or a supermarket after
Speaker 2: nine at the moment it's eleven.
Speaker 1: Will that couple of hours make any kind of difference.
Speaker 5: Do you think, Oh, look, I don't think so at all. Really,
Speaker 5: so this is the new lap, the Auckland lap, I
Speaker 5: think I think, as I say, it needs to be
Speaker 5: balanced really with an understanding about how we're drinking, and
Speaker 5: we've already spoken about. I really think that there it
Speaker 5: has to be evidence based and is there evidence for instance,
Speaker 5: to if you like close a bottle store or a supermarket,
Speaker 5: you know, selling alcohol at nine? Is there something which
Speaker 5: tells us this suddenly becomes a dangerous hour And there
Speaker 5: actually is no evidence which actually says that. I think
Speaker 5: all it's going to do is inconvenience consumers. Really, I
Speaker 5: think the push really for tougher restrictions such as reducing
Speaker 5: the number of alcohol stores and limiting operating ours, needs
Speaker 5: to be based on evidence that these measures will make
Speaker 5: a material difference in reducing harm. We don't see the
Speaker 5: clear evidence. We haven't seen any of it. For instance,
Speaker 5: a recent police study actually showed that majority of our
Speaker 5: CCOL purchases are made around six pm, not during the
Speaker 5: later hours that have been targeted. I mean we would
Speaker 5: support in more sort of nuanced approach really that considers
Speaker 5: all stakeholders, retailers, consumers, police, counsels and social agencies really
Speaker 5: working together. I think we have to consider as well. Really,
Speaker 5: I mean retailers as well are operating in a highly
Speaker 5: regulated environment. They are adding more and adding more restrictions
Speaker 5: without evidence, can place unnecessary strain on businesses, particularly in
Speaker 5: what's really challenging sort of economic conditions, and many retailers
Speaker 5: support that. Sales between nine and ten frints, it's a
Speaker 5: minimal and closing stores early may inconvenience and I'm sure
Speaker 5: it will inconvenience responsible drinkers such as shift workers, without
Speaker 5: addressing hazardous consumption. Really, I think the focus should be
Speaker 5: on quality of operators and ensuring they're well supported by
Speaker 5: robust policy and strong community engagement, rather than reducing still
Speaker 5: numbers or hours.
Speaker 2: What do you make of the rise of delivery services
Speaker 2: like the likes of Uber Eats selling alcohol?
Speaker 1: Should there be some more safeguards around that?
Speaker 5: So? I think first up, there there is an increase
Speaker 5: in online delivery. I think some of that's occurred, particularly
Speaker 5: since COVID. First of all, I think I should mention
Speaker 5: that the survey that Alcohol Health Watch has done is
Speaker 5: only just gone up in the journal today. We haven't
Speaker 5: been able to actually review the document, but at the
Speaker 5: moment the law does not require ID checks before you
Speaker 5: deliver at the house. However, we do support a strengthening
Speaker 5: in this area, and in principle our retailers, so our
Speaker 5: retailers are both supermarkets and the bottled stores. They believe
Speaker 5: the same licensing requirements that apply to alcohol sale and
Speaker 5: supply in stores should apply to online purchases and delivery.
Speaker 5: But it's also still going to be important too just
Speaker 5: to get more feedback from the industry, review the survey,
Speaker 5: consider a way forward which includes feedback from retailers, consumers,
Speaker 5: police counsels and social agencies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because in Australia they've kind of gotten around that
Speaker 2: by doing things like scanning IDs when they're delivered.
Speaker 1: And stuff like that.
Speaker 5: Right, so I think we need to really have a
Speaker 5: look at this area and work out the appropriate processes
Speaker 5: that we need to put in place to strengthen really
Speaker 5: this area. But at the moment, there is no requirement
Speaker 5: to have an ID check when you get to the house.
Speaker 5: Most responsible retailers have a system, if you like, of
Speaker 5: when the order is placed understanding and knowing that this
Speaker 5: person is above eighteen. But I think when a person
Speaker 5: gets to the house. We really need to look at
Speaker 5: the processes that occur then.
Speaker 6: Twenty years ago, drinking was cool. Now the cool kids
Speaker 6: are those who recognize the harm.
Speaker 7: The change really has come from young people themselves.
Speaker 6: It seems young people are more knowledgeable about the risks
Speaker 6: of alcohol abuse and risks their ambition.
Speaker 7: Young people seemed pretty much enjoying life day to day,
Speaker 7: whereas today's young people were more peture focused.
Speaker 6: Those who are drinking are still often indulging in the
Speaker 6: time hon it way.
Speaker 7: Bin drinking is still the typical drinking style and often
Speaker 7: young people who are drinking heavily in this age group
Speaker 7: have got other issues going on.
Speaker 2: The New Zealand Health Survey shows that Kiwis are taking
Speaker 2: part in hazardous drinking less now, doesn't it?
Speaker 5: It absolutely does. It shows really that there's a cultural
Speaker 5: shift in the way Kiwis are drinking and has it
Speaker 5: a drinking of harmful Alcohol consumption amongst adults was similar
Speaker 5: to last year and it's declined four point seven percentage
Speaker 5: points in the last four years, which is great to
Speaker 5: sixteen point six percent and the largest decrease and has
Speaker 5: it iss drinking over the past five years was among
Speaker 5: young New Zealanders the eighteen to twenty fours. I mean
Speaker 5: that's declined by thirteen point two percentage points, which was
Speaker 5: at thirty five point eight percent and is now at
Speaker 5: twenty two point six percent. It's still higher than what
Speaker 5: we want, but the trending is really exactly where we
Speaker 5: want it. The stats New Zealand alcohol consumption per capita
Speaker 5: has also declined by twenty nine percent since nineteen eighty six.
Speaker 5: And as I say, and as I mentioned, when we
Speaker 5: compare our drinking with other countries in the OECD, Keywis
Speaker 5: are drinking less than the OECD average, which includes less
Speaker 5: than the US, UK, Australia, Germany, France and Ireland.
Speaker 2: When it comes to the alcohol industry, do you think
Speaker 2: there are misconceptions I suppose around the alcohol industry being
Speaker 2: unwilling to change.
Speaker 5: Perhaps I think that there are some of those misconceptions
Speaker 5: out there, but there's also an understanding by consumers that
Speaker 5: the industry has really changed over time. We are drinking differently.
Speaker 5: Why are we drinking differently? Yes, the industry is providing
Speaker 5: new and interesting products such as no and low alcohol products,
Speaker 5: but we as a society as well have actually changed
Speaker 5: our requirements of what we want, what's acceptable to drink,
Speaker 5: how we should be drinking, the support we put around
Speaker 5: each other. I think there can be some misconceptions about
Speaker 5: the industry, but the industry is very interested in how
Speaker 5: we can reduce harmful drinkers. Nobody in the industry wants
Speaker 5: harmful drinkers.
Speaker 1: Would the industry be open to something like say, minimum
Speaker 1: unit pricing.
Speaker 5: Overseas that for instance in Australia At the moment in
Speaker 5: the Northern Territory they are actually saying that actually hasn't
Speaker 5: worked and they're looking at other options. In Scotland, although
Speaker 5: they've re put it in so this means that we
Speaker 5: will all pay and that means eighty four percent of
Speaker 5: responsible drinkers will pay more, and the thought that this
Speaker 5: may reduce hazard as drinkers. The research is, and the
Speaker 5: research out of Scotland is this has not worked. What
Speaker 5: happens is that responsible drinkers drink less and has it
Speaker 5: a drinkers sadly still continue to consume the alcohol that
Speaker 5: they want to need. Sadly.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us Virginia great.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at enzdherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also
Speaker 2: our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front
Speaker 2: Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
Speaker 2: tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.