WEBVTT - Citizens' arrests law change sparks safety concerns in retail sector 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:07.000 Yoda. 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:10.000 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:11.680 daily podcast. 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:13.080 Presented by the New Zealand Herald. 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:19.480 The government's announced it's giving businesses more power to make 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:23.600 with citizens arrests. Up until now, citizens arrests could only 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:27.080 happen between nine pm and six am for crimes with 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:29.200 a maximum punishment of at least. 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:30.200 Three years in prison. 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:33.600 But the changes mean people can intervene and stop any 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:36.840 offense at any time of the day by using restraint 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:42.080 and reasonable force. Retail crime costs New Zealand retailer's two 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:46.680 point six billion dollars a year. Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:51.120 says retail crime rose eighty five percent between twenty nineteen 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:55.360 and twenty twenty three, including a ninety one percent increase 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:57.760 in victimizations relating to theft. 0:00:58.120 --> 0:00:59.200 Today on the Front. 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:03.480 Page, Labour's past spokesperson Jenny Anderson is criticizing the government 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:07.160 for the changes, saying they've already been dismissed by police 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:08.640 as being dangerous. 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:10.800 But first we'll speak to Retail and. 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:14.319 Z's Carolyn Young about the rise of retail crime. 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:20.560 So, Carolyn, has there been many. 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:22.880 Calls for the ability to be able to make more 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:25.080 citizens arrests among retailers. 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:28.600 We haven't had any requiries from members about how they 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:32.320 would go about doing it, and any interest from people 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:35.039 doing those citizens arrest There have been calls for the 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:39.600 ability to actually have more powers to stop an offender 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:42.559 in store, so to be able to stop someone, get 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:45.200 your goods back, get them trespassed, and get them off 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.480 your premises. But retailers are not wanting to engage in 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:51.200 a physical way, so they don't want to actually manhandle someone. 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:53.200 They don't want to detain them, and they don't want 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:56.160 to handcuff them. So I think though there the key 0:01:56.240 --> 0:01:58.200 differences is that yes, we do need to be able 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:01.000 to stop people. That needs to be repercushion, but actually 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:04.720 the ability to use reasonable force to detain someone is 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:08.840 not something that retailers are trained to do or interested 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:11.160 in doing, and really hard to comply with health and 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:14.359 safety in the workplace to comply with that if you're 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:15.799 putting your staff in harm's way. 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:18.880 Yeah, I used to work retail, as probably a number 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:22.560 of other people in their lifetime. I remember always being 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:25.840 taught not to be a hero if a robbery were 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:28.799 to happen, and that was a million years ago though, 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:30.079 But is that still the advice. 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:34.119 Absolutely, the advice is to get out of the situation, 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:37.239 not get into the situation. So the idea is that 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:40.959 you are complying with the person there, You're keeping calm, 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:43.880 you're engaging with them, but in a way in which 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:45.640 you want to get them out of the store and 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:49.079 resolve the situation as quickly and simply as possible. That's 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:51.840 really critical. And you know, the other thing that you 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:55.000 remember from your days in retail is really about training. 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:57.520 You know, about making sure that you've got good customer 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:00.240 service skills goes a long way. Police will tell you 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:03.240 that eighty percent of offenders that come into your store, 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:06.560 if you engage with them, you say hello, you welcome them, 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:09.200 ask them how you can help them, they'll turn around 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:11.760 and they'll walk out if they're interested in stealing something 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:13.960 because they know they've got someone keeping eye on them 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:16.640 and someone giving them attention. And then the other piece 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:19.760 of training that's really useful is de escalation around how 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:23.720 do you take the heat out of a conversation or 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:27.080 a heated argument or someone that may be offending in 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:29.880 your store, and how you might approach them and identifying 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:32.720 sort of those signals that you're seeing from people as 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:33.799 they're coming through store. 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:37.680 Carolyn, you're on the Ministerial Advisory Group for Victims of 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:41.520 Retail crime and that was announced in September. What kind 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:45.320 of consultation and conversations were had before coming to this conclusion. 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:49.040 So the Chair has on a regular basis asked us 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:53.560 for feedback on various topics which members and other parts 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:57.520 of the retail sector have provided submissions to. And then 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:03.200 the Chair and others that were in the mag at 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:05.960 that point in time have formed papers that have been 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:08.880 sent to the Minister. We haven't had an opportunity to 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:11.080 feed into what where those summaries have come from in 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:13.320 terms of what those papers look like. But right at 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:16.120 the start of the mag first meeting, the Minister and 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:20.039 Associate Minister of Justice both came along and Minister Goldsmith 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:21.800 was really clear to us and he said, look, I 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:24.479 want to hear diverse opinion. I want you if you 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:27.240 don't agree, I want to hear about it. I don't 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:29.240 just agree for the sake of it. So we've been 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:32.120 really clear to make sure that we've represented our members' 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:34.920 interests and what our members are telling us and our 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:37.359 members are telling us that, you know, engaging in a 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:40.720 way in which you're using a reasonable force or any 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:44.880 force and detaining someone and using mechanical restraints, whether it's 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:49.960 cable ties or handcuffs, is not something that retailers want 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:51.400 from our membership. 0:04:55.760 --> 0:05:00.720 Obviously, stopping somebody from moving, restraining them as fundamentally what 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:03.919 we're on about, well, not necessarily a headlock or anything 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:07.960 like that. It's just holding them steady, and then the 0:05:08.400 --> 0:05:11.240 role is to call for the police and to hold 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:14.600 them until such a time as that happens. The alternative, 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:18.000 which is what we have at the moment, as just 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:20.599 standing by and watching while people take away stuff. And 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:22.560 I think general public has fed up with that. 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:28.360 Were you surprised to see the announcement. 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:32.479 Yeah, look really surprised when we heard about it late 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:35.440 last week and you saw some information come through at 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:37.680 the beginning of the week. I guess you know, I 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:41.479 know that small retailers, the whole sector is frustrated, right, 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:44.239 Everyone in retail is frustrated with the level of crime 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:47.280 that we're seeing and the level of violent and aggressive behavior. 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:50.240 And the thing I would call out is who are 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:52.680 we as a society and a community around how we 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:54.839 want to engage with each other. How is it that 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:56.760 we want to connect with people in a way that's 0:05:56.839 --> 0:06:01.680 respectful that we'd be comfortable of grandmother or our auntie 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:04.200 or our mother saw us really making sure that we 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:06.640 are more respectful to each other. But then you know, 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:08.760 on the other side of the coiners that we understand 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:10.760 some of the small retailers feel that they want to 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:13.720 take matters into their own hands. And our concern is 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:16.120 that if you do that, you're going to elevate the 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:18.280 level of violence that we see, and you're going to 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:20.599 elevate the level of weaponry that we're going to see 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:23.640 in store, and the type of things that our criminals 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.280 and offenders are doing is going to change and pivot 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:31.240 to counteract the potential changes that the minister announced. 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:34.239 Now, New Zealand has already seen examples of the risks 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:37.320 of this kind of thing, and I know that Labor 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:40.400 has said that there are concerns that people could get 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:43.719 injured or worse, lose their life because there could be 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:45.080 a weapon involved. 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:46.480 Is this a major concern? 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:49.320 Oh, for sure. Absolutely. When you've got an offender in 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:51.520 store that's wanting to do harm, you actually don't know 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.240 what they might have concealed on their body. You don't 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:56.120 know their state of mind. You don't know if they're 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:59.360 under the influence of drugs or they've got some medication 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:01.840 they take. New don't actually know anything about that individual 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:04.880 often and so the risk you're taking is that you're 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:08.200 engaging with them in a confrontational way in which they 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:12.560 could react and respond quite violently and you could be harmed. 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:16.120 And from our perspective, you know, someone's life is worth 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:20.320 infinitely more than any cost of goods. You know, if 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:23.800 you aren't here, then you are not able to fulfill 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:27.640 your family. You know, your life has stopped. It's really 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:31.480 not something that we could comprehend being worth the cost 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:32.880 of anything that's being stolen. 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:36.400 New Zealand has around two hundred and thirty thousand people 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.640 working in retail, or about nine percent of our workforce. 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:42.400 What should we be doing better to protect them? 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:45.280 Look, you know, you know there's some key things that 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:47.920 retailers do around training and all of those sorts of 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:49.880 things that I touched on earlier. But I think I 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:55.320 do think that being respectful and being really considerate about 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:59.160 how we engage with people in our communities, whether you're 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.720 in a retail ste or in any other aspect of society. 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.760 It's really wanting to make sure that if you were 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.160 treated the same way, would you be comfortable. Because as 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:11.280 soon as we get people coming into store where they're 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:15.440 yelling abuse, they're spitting, the slapping, they're punching, the kicking 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:18.760 retail staff who go to work to do their job, 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:21.800 we don't believe that that's acceptable behavior, and that's where 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:24.840 things escalate from that level forward. What we really want 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:29.120 to promote is preventative measures, so thinking about things like 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.200 facial recognition technology and how that can be used to 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:35.160 identify offenders that have offended in your store before, to 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:37.920 ensure that they don't come in, to protect staff, and 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:41.600 to protect customers from in the store, to use more 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:45.840 effective use of trespass. So the trespass laws aren't up 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:48.600 to date and current and they need to be elevated 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.240 into a space where they are more effective in twenty 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:53.559 twenty five, So if we can get some of those 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:56.920 things done and an opportunity for retailers to be able 0:08:56.960 --> 0:09:01.000 to get their goods back and get pep lofty premises 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:03.319 and get the truth passed, that's going to keep stores 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:06.240 safer or keep staffs safer and or help lower crime. 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:08.720 Thanks for joining us, Carolyn Pleasure. 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:11.200 Thank you for your time. 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:22.440 It seems like there was a time when we'd hear 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:25.640 about ram raids daily. There were a total of four 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:28.400 hundred and thirty three ram raids in twenty twenty two, 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:31.439 two hundred and eighty eight and twenty twenty three, and 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:34.720 sixty seven in the first four months of twenty twenty four. 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:37.679 As a result, the Labor government brought in a raft 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:39.280 of changes to tackle. 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:40.520 The sharp increase in ram raids. 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:44.160 We speak to Labour's police spokesperson Ginny Anderson about this 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:47.559 government's latest move and what her party would. 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:48.240 Have done differently. 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:54.160 So, Genny, the government's announced people will be able to 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:57.520 make citizens arrest at any time of the day with 0:09:57.600 --> 0:09:59.920 some degree of restraint and reasonable force. 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:02.559 Now are these ideas dangerous? Do you think? 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:05.440 I think they are dangerous. The government needs to do 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:10.280 its job and not pass that over to retail owners 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:12.880 and members of the public. It's dangerous. 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:16.720 And you've got some concerns about this Ministerial Advisory Group 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:17.640 pay what are they. 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:19.880 Well, they seem to be at odds with each other. 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:22.520 We've got the head of Retail New Zealand coming out 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:25.959 strongly saying they've surveyed their membership and they don't want this. 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:28.720 They consider it puts their staff at risk and actually 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:32.800 it makes a shopping a negative experience for people if 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:36.679 they're talks of tax and attempts to control people happening 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:37.280 in a store. 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:39.880 Well, what's happening there, because hasn't it cost us three 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:41.360 point six million dollars? 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:45.600 Will the list of requirements that Sunny Kosho had were 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:48.480 given to me when I was Minister of Police. So 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:52.319 these are the same things he told me eighteen months ago. 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:54.720 So the fact that the government's paid three point six 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:57.440 million dollars were the same ideas that were offered for 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:00.800 free to our government seems ludicrous in a way of money. 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:03.800 What would labor do differently, we wouldn't. 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:07.600 Be encouraging members of the public to take the law 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:11.800 into their own hands. The police themselves have always advised 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:14.720 people to keep yourself safe and to call the police, 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:18.600 who are trained professionals when community safety is the risk. 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:22.440 So what's happening here is a really dangerous situation that 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:25.559 could have quite great outcomes for our communities. 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:28.080 And do questions need to be asked of how this 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:31.200 ministery or advisory group came up with this, Like you say, 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:33.000 eighteen month old idea. 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:35.640 Well, I think it's pretty clear. It's the same wish 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:38.679 list that Sunny Kushel brought to our government. We took 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:42.040 advice from police and thought it was unsafe. For some reason, 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:45.440 this government has paid three point six million dollars for 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:48.400 it and made it intense to make it into law. 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:54.880 So with the ram raids down and the serious results down, 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:57.199 can we say that the tough on crime approach has worked. 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:01.559 Well, it's a great brigny and a relief for retailers 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:04.199 and dairy honors. As you know, they lived in fear 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:08.200 every day for years, you know, and people are feeling 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:11.920 the difference between the two governments, you know, a soft 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:15.679 on crime approach versus getting tough on crime. So, as 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:19.120 you rightly said, the ramrod side down, the violent crime, 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:22.600 which was increased fifty one percent between twenty eighteen and 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:27.360 twenty twenty three, has a first time since twenty eighteen. 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:31.760 Now, I know we don't hear about ram raids nearly 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:33.600 as much as we used to, but just this week 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:35.840 we've seen two men arrested after a ram raid on 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:39.280 an East Auckland liquor store. And this is despite them 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:42.320 apparently spending upwards of forty thousand dollars on security. So 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:46.440 we're still seeing them despite the apt security. So what 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:48.000 should we do next. 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:51.920 We need to keep resorting our frontline police. What we've 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:54.880 seen under this governments cuts to all of those support 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:57.840 staff that enable police to get back out on the 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:01.280 street as quickly as possible. Police way down with filling 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:04.000 out forms when they need to be fighting crime. More 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:07.720 resource for our police, not empowering the local people to 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:10.400 take the law into their own hands, is the answer. 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:13.320 What worries you the most when you see something like 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:14.080 this come through. 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.960 I really worry that someone could be seriously injured or 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:21.040 even lose their life. If someone has a weapon, who's 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:24.960 attempting to steal, and they're attempted to have a citizen 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:28.079 of the rest, there is real concerns about the safety 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:32.199 of that retail owner and people around the incident when 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:34.360 it occurs. I'd just like to add that police had 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:39.640 consistently given the advice that this sort of vigilante instruction 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:43.680 is dangerous for community safety, and I'm really shoped that 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:46.400 this government has taken this step. 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:47.640 Thanks for joining us day. 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:48.720 Thank you. 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.320 That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:59.199 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:00.120 at ends at hair. 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.319 Dot co dot nz. The Front Page is. 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:07.000 Produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:08.319 a sound engineer. 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:10.240 I'm Chelsea Daniels. 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:13.960 Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.800 get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:19.120 behind the headlines.