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Speaker 1: Yoda.

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Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

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Speaker 2: daily podcast.

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Speaker 3: Presented by the New Zealand Herald.

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Speaker 2: The government's announced it's giving businesses more power to make

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Speaker 2: with citizens arrests. Up until now, citizens arrests could only

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Speaker 2: happen between nine pm and six am for crimes with

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Speaker 2: a maximum punishment of at least.

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Speaker 3: Three years in prison.

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Speaker 2: But the changes mean people can intervene and stop any

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Speaker 2: offense at any time of the day by using restraint

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Speaker 2: and reasonable force. Retail crime costs New Zealand retailer's two

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Speaker 2: point six billion dollars a year. Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith

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Speaker 2: says retail crime rose eighty five percent between twenty nineteen

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Speaker 2: and twenty twenty three, including a ninety one percent increase

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Speaker 2: in victimizations relating to theft.

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Speaker 3: Today on the Front.

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Speaker 2: Page, Labour's past spokesperson Jenny Anderson is criticizing the government

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Speaker 2: for the changes, saying they've already been dismissed by police

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Speaker 2: as being dangerous.

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Speaker 3: But first we'll speak to Retail and.

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Speaker 2: Z's Carolyn Young about the rise of retail crime.

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Speaker 3: So, Carolyn, has there been many.

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Speaker 2: Calls for the ability to be able to make more

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Speaker 2: citizens arrests among retailers.

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Speaker 4: We haven't had any requiries from members about how they

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Speaker 4: would go about doing it, and any interest from people

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Speaker 4: doing those citizens arrest There have been calls for the

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Speaker 4: ability to actually have more powers to stop an offender

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Speaker 4: in store, so to be able to stop someone, get

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Speaker 4: your goods back, get them trespassed, and get them off

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Speaker 4: your premises. But retailers are not wanting to engage in

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Speaker 4: a physical way, so they don't want to actually manhandle someone.

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Speaker 4: They don't want to detain them, and they don't want

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Speaker 4: to handcuff them. So I think though there the key

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Speaker 4: differences is that yes, we do need to be able

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Speaker 4: to stop people. That needs to be repercushion, but actually

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Speaker 4: the ability to use reasonable force to detain someone is

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Speaker 4: not something that retailers are trained to do or interested

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Speaker 4: in doing, and really hard to comply with health and

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Speaker 4: safety in the workplace to comply with that if you're

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Speaker 4: putting your staff in harm's way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I used to work retail, as probably a number

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Speaker 2: of other people in their lifetime. I remember always being

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Speaker 2: taught not to be a hero if a robbery were

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Speaker 2: to happen, and that was a million years ago though,

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Speaker 2: But is that still the advice.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, the advice is to get out of the situation,

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Speaker 4: not get into the situation. So the idea is that

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Speaker 4: you are complying with the person there, You're keeping calm,

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Speaker 4: you're engaging with them, but in a way in which

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Speaker 4: you want to get them out of the store and

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Speaker 4: resolve the situation as quickly and simply as possible. That's

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Speaker 4: really critical. And you know, the other thing that you

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Speaker 4: remember from your days in retail is really about training.

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Speaker 4: You know, about making sure that you've got good customer

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Speaker 4: service skills goes a long way. Police will tell you

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Speaker 4: that eighty percent of offenders that come into your store,

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Speaker 4: if you engage with them, you say hello, you welcome them,

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Speaker 4: ask them how you can help them, they'll turn around

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Speaker 4: and they'll walk out if they're interested in stealing something

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Speaker 4: because they know they've got someone keeping eye on them

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Speaker 4: and someone giving them attention. And then the other piece

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Speaker 4: of training that's really useful is de escalation around how

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Speaker 4: do you take the heat out of a conversation or

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Speaker 4: a heated argument or someone that may be offending in

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Speaker 4: your store, and how you might approach them and identifying

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Speaker 4: sort of those signals that you're seeing from people as

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Speaker 4: they're coming through store.

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Speaker 2: Carolyn, you're on the Ministerial Advisory Group for Victims of

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Speaker 2: Retail crime and that was announced in September. What kind

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Speaker 2: of consultation and conversations were had before coming to this conclusion.

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Speaker 4: So the Chair has on a regular basis asked us

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Speaker 4: for feedback on various topics which members and other parts

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Speaker 4: of the retail sector have provided submissions to. And then

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Speaker 4: the Chair and others that were in the mag at

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Speaker 4: that point in time have formed papers that have been

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Speaker 4: sent to the Minister. We haven't had an opportunity to

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Speaker 4: feed into what where those summaries have come from in

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Speaker 4: terms of what those papers look like. But right at

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Speaker 4: the start of the mag first meeting, the Minister and

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Speaker 4: Associate Minister of Justice both came along and Minister Goldsmith

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Speaker 4: was really clear to us and he said, look, I

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Speaker 4: want to hear diverse opinion. I want you if you

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Speaker 4: don't agree, I want to hear about it. I don't

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Speaker 4: just agree for the sake of it. So we've been

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Speaker 4: really clear to make sure that we've represented our members'

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Speaker 4: interests and what our members are telling us and our

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Speaker 4: members are telling us that, you know, engaging in a

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Speaker 4: way in which you're using a reasonable force or any

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Speaker 4: force and detaining someone and using mechanical restraints, whether it's

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Speaker 4: cable ties or handcuffs, is not something that retailers want

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Speaker 4: from our membership.

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Speaker 1: Obviously, stopping somebody from moving, restraining them as fundamentally what

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Speaker 1: we're on about, well, not necessarily a headlock or anything

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Speaker 1: like that. It's just holding them steady, and then the

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Speaker 1: role is to call for the police and to hold

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Speaker 1: them until such a time as that happens. The alternative,

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Speaker 1: which is what we have at the moment, as just

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Speaker 1: standing by and watching while people take away stuff. And

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Speaker 1: I think general public has fed up with that.

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Speaker 3: Were you surprised to see the announcement.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, look really surprised when we heard about it late

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Speaker 4: last week and you saw some information come through at

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Speaker 4: the beginning of the week. I guess you know, I

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Speaker 4: know that small retailers, the whole sector is frustrated, right,

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Speaker 4: Everyone in retail is frustrated with the level of crime

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Speaker 4: that we're seeing and the level of violent and aggressive behavior.

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Speaker 4: And the thing I would call out is who are

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Speaker 4: we as a society and a community around how we

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Speaker 4: want to engage with each other. How is it that

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Speaker 4: we want to connect with people in a way that's

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Speaker 4: respectful that we'd be comfortable of grandmother or our auntie

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Speaker 4: or our mother saw us really making sure that we

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Speaker 4: are more respectful to each other. But then you know,

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Speaker 4: on the other side of the coiners that we understand

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Speaker 4: some of the small retailers feel that they want to

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Speaker 4: take matters into their own hands. And our concern is

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Speaker 4: that if you do that, you're going to elevate the

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Speaker 4: level of violence that we see, and you're going to

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Speaker 4: elevate the level of weaponry that we're going to see

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Speaker 4: in store, and the type of things that our criminals

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Speaker 4: and offenders are doing is going to change and pivot

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Speaker 4: to counteract the potential changes that the minister announced.

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Speaker 2: Now, New Zealand has already seen examples of the risks

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Speaker 2: of this kind of thing, and I know that Labor

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Speaker 2: has said that there are concerns that people could get

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Speaker 2: injured or worse, lose their life because there could be

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Speaker 2: a weapon involved.

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Speaker 3: Is this a major concern?

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Speaker 4: Oh, for sure. Absolutely. When you've got an offender in

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Speaker 4: store that's wanting to do harm, you actually don't know

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Speaker 4: what they might have concealed on their body. You don't

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Speaker 4: know their state of mind. You don't know if they're

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Speaker 4: under the influence of drugs or they've got some medication

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Speaker 4: they take. New don't actually know anything about that individual

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Speaker 4: often and so the risk you're taking is that you're

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Speaker 4: engaging with them in a confrontational way in which they

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Speaker 4: could react and respond quite violently and you could be harmed.

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Speaker 4: And from our perspective, you know, someone's life is worth

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Speaker 4: infinitely more than any cost of goods. You know, if

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Speaker 4: you aren't here, then you are not able to fulfill

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Speaker 4: your family. You know, your life has stopped. It's really

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Speaker 4: not something that we could comprehend being worth the cost

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Speaker 4: of anything that's being stolen.

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Speaker 3: New Zealand has around two hundred and thirty thousand people

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Speaker 3: working in retail, or about nine percent of our workforce.

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Speaker 3: What should we be doing better to protect them?

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Speaker 4: Look, you know, you know there's some key things that

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Speaker 4: retailers do around training and all of those sorts of

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Speaker 4: things that I touched on earlier. But I think I

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Speaker 4: do think that being respectful and being really considerate about

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Speaker 4: how we engage with people in our communities, whether you're

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Speaker 4: in a retail ste or in any other aspect of society.

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Speaker 4: It's really wanting to make sure that if you were

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Speaker 4: treated the same way, would you be comfortable. Because as

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Speaker 4: soon as we get people coming into store where they're

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Speaker 4: yelling abuse, they're spitting, the slapping, they're punching, the kicking

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Speaker 4: retail staff who go to work to do their job,

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Speaker 4: we don't believe that that's acceptable behavior, and that's where

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Speaker 4: things escalate from that level forward. What we really want

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Speaker 4: to promote is preventative measures, so thinking about things like

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Speaker 4: facial recognition technology and how that can be used to

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Speaker 4: identify offenders that have offended in your store before, to

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Speaker 4: ensure that they don't come in, to protect staff, and

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Speaker 4: to protect customers from in the store, to use more

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Speaker 4: effective use of trespass. So the trespass laws aren't up

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Speaker 4: to date and current and they need to be elevated

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Speaker 4: into a space where they are more effective in twenty

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Speaker 4: twenty five, So if we can get some of those

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Speaker 4: things done and an opportunity for retailers to be able

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Speaker 4: to get their goods back and get pep lofty premises

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Speaker 4: and get the truth passed, that's going to keep stores

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Speaker 4: safer or keep staffs safer and or help lower crime.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us, Carolyn Pleasure.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for your time.

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Speaker 2: It seems like there was a time when we'd hear

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Speaker 2: about ram raids daily. There were a total of four

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Speaker 2: hundred and thirty three ram raids in twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 2: two hundred and eighty eight and twenty twenty three, and

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Speaker 2: sixty seven in the first four months of twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 2: As a result, the Labor government brought in a raft

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Speaker 2: of changes to tackle.

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Speaker 3: The sharp increase in ram raids.

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Speaker 2: We speak to Labour's police spokesperson Ginny Anderson about this

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Speaker 2: government's latest move and what her party would.

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Speaker 3: Have done differently.

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Speaker 2: So, Genny, the government's announced people will be able to

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Speaker 2: make citizens arrest at any time of the day with

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Speaker 2: some degree of restraint and reasonable force.

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Speaker 3: Now are these ideas dangerous? Do you think?

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Speaker 5: I think they are dangerous. The government needs to do

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Speaker 5: its job and not pass that over to retail owners

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Speaker 5: and members of the public. It's dangerous.

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Speaker 2: And you've got some concerns about this Ministerial Advisory Group

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Speaker 2: pay what are they.

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Speaker 5: Well, they seem to be at odds with each other.

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Speaker 5: We've got the head of Retail New Zealand coming out

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Speaker 5: strongly saying they've surveyed their membership and they don't want this.

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Speaker 5: They consider it puts their staff at risk and actually

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Speaker 5: it makes a shopping a negative experience for people if

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Speaker 5: they're talks of tax and attempts to control people happening

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Speaker 5: in a store.

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Speaker 3: Well, what's happening there, because hasn't it cost us three

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Speaker 3: point six million dollars?

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Speaker 5: Will the list of requirements that Sunny Kosho had were

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Speaker 5: given to me when I was Minister of Police. So

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Speaker 5: these are the same things he told me eighteen months ago.

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Speaker 5: So the fact that the government's paid three point six

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Speaker 5: million dollars were the same ideas that were offered for

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Speaker 5: free to our government seems ludicrous in a way of money.

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Speaker 3: What would labor do differently, we wouldn't.

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Speaker 5: Be encouraging members of the public to take the law

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Speaker 5: into their own hands. The police themselves have always advised

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Speaker 5: people to keep yourself safe and to call the police,

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Speaker 5: who are trained professionals when community safety is the risk.

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Speaker 5: So what's happening here is a really dangerous situation that

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Speaker 5: could have quite great outcomes for our communities.

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Speaker 3: And do questions need to be asked of how this

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Speaker 3: ministery or advisory group came up with this, Like you say,

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Speaker 3: eighteen month old idea.

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Speaker 5: Well, I think it's pretty clear. It's the same wish

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Speaker 5: list that Sunny Kushel brought to our government. We took

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Speaker 5: advice from police and thought it was unsafe. For some reason,

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Speaker 5: this government has paid three point six million dollars for

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Speaker 5: it and made it intense to make it into law.

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Speaker 1: So with the ram raids down and the serious results down,

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Speaker 1: can we say that the tough on crime approach has worked.

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Speaker 6: Well, it's a great brigny and a relief for retailers

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Speaker 6: and dairy honors. As you know, they lived in fear

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Speaker 6: every day for years, you know, and people are feeling

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Speaker 6: the difference between the two governments, you know, a soft

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Speaker 6: on crime approach versus getting tough on crime. So, as

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Speaker 6: you rightly said, the ramrod side down, the violent crime,

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Speaker 6: which was increased fifty one percent between twenty eighteen and

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Speaker 6: twenty twenty three, has a first time since twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 2: Now, I know we don't hear about ram raids nearly

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Speaker 2: as much as we used to, but just this week

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Speaker 2: we've seen two men arrested after a ram raid on

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Speaker 2: an East Auckland liquor store. And this is despite them

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Speaker 2: apparently spending upwards of forty thousand dollars on security. So

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Speaker 2: we're still seeing them despite the apt security. So what

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Speaker 2: should we do next.

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Speaker 5: We need to keep resorting our frontline police. What we've

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Speaker 5: seen under this governments cuts to all of those support

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Speaker 5: staff that enable police to get back out on the

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Speaker 5: street as quickly as possible. Police way down with filling

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Speaker 5: out forms when they need to be fighting crime. More

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Speaker 5: resource for our police, not empowering the local people to

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Speaker 5: take the law into their own hands, is the answer.

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Speaker 3: What worries you the most when you see something like

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Speaker 3: this come through.

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Speaker 5: I really worry that someone could be seriously injured or

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Speaker 5: even lose their life. If someone has a weapon, who's

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Speaker 5: attempting to steal, and they're attempted to have a citizen

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Speaker 5: of the rest, there is real concerns about the safety

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Speaker 5: of that retail owner and people around the incident when

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Speaker 5: it occurs. I'd just like to add that police had

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Speaker 5: consistently given the advice that this sort of vigilante instruction

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Speaker 5: is dangerous for community safety, and I'm really shoped that

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Speaker 5: this government has taken this step.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us day.

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Speaker 5: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

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Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

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Speaker 2: at ends at hair.

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Speaker 3: Dot co dot nz. The Front Page is.

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Speaker 2: Produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also

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Speaker 2: a sound engineer.

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Speaker 3: I'm Chelsea Daniels.

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