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Speaker 1: Right now. We've got a problem with court ordered reparation payments.

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Speaker 1: This is the problem is that people aren't paying them.

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Speaker 1: They're like fines, but they're paid to victims rather than

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Speaker 1: the state. Half the amount owed is now overdue. The

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Speaker 1: Justice Minister, Paul Goldsmith is open to suggestions on how

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Speaker 1: to change that.

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Speaker 2: I'll be interested in your listeners if they could come

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Speaker 2: up with I think we've got to come up.

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Speaker 1: With something that's irritating and difficult and annoying, which forces

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Speaker 1: people to actually get on with it and pay the fine.

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Speaker 1: Ruth Money is the government's chief Victims of advisor with

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Speaker 1: me this afternoon. High Ruth, Hi Ryan, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm good? Thank you so your idea here is an

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Speaker 1: interesting one and I quite like it. Although how much

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Speaker 1: it costs I guess we'll get to. But what is

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Speaker 1: the gist of your idea. It's getting the government to

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Speaker 1: pay up front.

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Speaker 2: Here, we shouldn't be tying victim's outcomes to their offender

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Speaker 2: and whether the offender has got resources to pay it

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Speaker 2: or not. The victim was victimized, the victim was harmed.

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Speaker 2: Therefore the reparation has been ordered and therefore the state

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Speaker 2: should pay the proposal would be the state pays the

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Speaker 2: victim and then the state chases the offender for that payment,

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Speaker 2: as opposed to the victim waiting for a non payment

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Speaker 2: or maybe seeing Ministry of Justice two dollars every two

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Speaker 2: weeks for example, which just retraumatizes and drags out the

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Speaker 2: memory for the victim who's trying to move on.

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Speaker 1: What's the average amount owed Groth?

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't have the data in front of me. However,

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Speaker 2: when I got the OIA the ENZME had done, it

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Speaker 2: looks like the average per person is about four thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars on the figures, but again that is really depending

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Speaker 2: on For example, there's some really high averages dragging that

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Speaker 2: up in for example the Auckland High Court, where I

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Speaker 2: think a lot of those reparation orders are perhaps business

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Speaker 2: based things as opposed to criminal activity. I would be

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Speaker 2: really interested to know. At the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: you know it's material, you owe the money and you

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Speaker 2: should be paying it.

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Speaker 1: So the problem is they're not paying it and the

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Speaker 1: victims are going without. Your suggestion is the government pays

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Speaker 1: up front, victims settled, and then government chases are perpetrated

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Speaker 1: or chases whoever owes the money, so that's obviously going

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Speaker 1: to be expensive. Would you support would you care whether

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Speaker 1: it's taken out of their benefit or taken out of

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Speaker 1: their wages. I mean, you wouldn't mind how the money

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Speaker 1: is collected.

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Speaker 2: I don't mind how the money is collected because I

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Speaker 2: think the count effectual to it not being collected is

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Speaker 2: that the victims are going without. So at the moment,

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Speaker 2: victims don't get as you and I have talked about

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Speaker 2: for years, they don't get many entitlements. You know, for

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Speaker 2: often victims are paying for therapy open or above what

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Speaker 2: the state allows for. There is a loss of income

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Speaker 2: that comes with being a victim, so entitlements when you

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Speaker 2: are victimized, the state doesn't and this is always a

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Speaker 2: shock to victim's The state doesn't help you with your

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Speaker 2: lost income et cetera, et cetera, to the level of

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Speaker 2: what you genuinely lose. So the reparation there, you know,

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Speaker 2: is ordered to assist with that. So it needs to

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Speaker 2: be paid because it's either the offender who is missing

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Speaker 2: out all the victim.

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Speaker 1: Do you know what people will say, not not people,

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Speaker 1: but those the advocates for the other side of the coin,

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Speaker 1: Those are the offenders I say, well, you will further

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Speaker 1: impoverish them. You know, if you start docking people's wages,

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Speaker 1: then this happens, et cetera. I mean, I mean, this

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Speaker 1: will be the argument from the other side.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't disagree with some of that. However,

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Speaker 2: there needs to be accountability for your actions. You can't

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Speaker 2: just go around harming people and it not. You know,

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Speaker 2: you're not being held to account and you're not being

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Speaker 2: given a punishment. Otherwise you're just going to continue in

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Speaker 2: this cycle. What I would also say, though, is that

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Speaker 2: in my experience, and I am going to ask the

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Speaker 2: Ministry of Justice chase this up there, I don't see

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Speaker 2: a lot of judailgence going into collection of reparation. So

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Speaker 2: in my experience I have sat and helped victims where

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Speaker 2: reparation has been ordered. We know that the person might

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Speaker 2: have a house or a new car, for example, and

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Speaker 2: yet the piece of paper that's gone into the ministry

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Speaker 2: to say, oh no, I can't pay that reparation is false.

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Speaker 2: So what is the due diligence going on to verify

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Speaker 2: someone's ability to pay or not? So let's not jump,

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Speaker 2: you know, right, you know, throwing the baby out with

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Speaker 2: the bath order at this point in time, Let's look

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Speaker 2: at our processes. Is there something that we can do

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Speaker 2: to upweight resource around collection of said debt?

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Speaker 1: Get it from the first place, Ruth, Appreciate your time.

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Speaker 1: Ruth Money, Government's Chief Victims Advisor. For more from Heather

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Speaker 1: Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to news talks. It'd be

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Speaker 1: from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.