1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,279 Speaker 1: So a landmark report from the New Zealand Drug Foundation 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: delivers a stark verdict new Zealand's current drug lords our 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: laws rather are driving a surge and overdose debts and 4 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: continue to penalize users rather than offer support. The Foundation 5 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: is calling for a complete overhaul, urging the decriminalization of 6 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: all drug use and shift the focus to health and recovery. 7 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: Joining us on the line now is the executive director 8 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: of the New Zealand Drug Foundation, Sarah Holm. Sarah, very 9 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: good afternoon to you, Thank you very much for your time. 10 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 2: Gooday, good a. 11 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 3: What does decriminalization mean and how would it work if 12 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,279 Speaker 3: it ever happened in New Zealand? Can you describe how 13 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 3: it actually functionally works. 14 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, decriminalizations just removing the penalties for drug use 15 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 2: or possession essentially, so it doesn't mean you're legalizing and 16 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 2: making drugs available, but it removes those penalties for use. 17 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 2: And at the moment, we know that that's getting in 18 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 2: the way of people seeking help and one of the 19 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 2: things that's contributing to our very rapidly growing rugg issues. 20 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 2: And there's been heaps of evidence, so we've taken this 21 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 2: very seriously and looked across the board. There's two decades 22 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 2: of experience from Portugal, there's two twenty two countries that 23 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 2: have decriminalized drug use, even more that have decriminalized cannabis use, 24 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 2: et cetera. So we've got a lot of evidence to 25 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 2: draw from at this point and what does well. 26 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 3: It's interesting because the text machines are lighting up with 27 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 3: people saying Vancouver, Vancouver, Vancouver, So what's the experience in Canada. Yeah. 28 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 2: Look, one of the things that we looked at was 29 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 2: are some of the pitfalls where they've gone a bit further. 30 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 2: So one of the problems that's happened in parts of 31 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 2: the world is they've gone a bit further and gone 32 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 2: for legalization in a commercial model, and some of those 33 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 2: commercial models have resulted it appears in more harm. So 34 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 2: we're very much coming against that in this report. The 35 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 2: other thing that's been clear is in places where they 36 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 2: have done decriminalizations, that's the lower thing, if you like, 37 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 2: just removing those penalties. If they haven't invested in health 38 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 2: approaches like treatment, you know, aduction, treatment, prevention, harm reduction, 39 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 2: then that they haven't seen the kinds of improvements either. 40 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 2: So we're recommending that the things be done in tandem. 41 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 2: We've got a couple of reports suggesting how that kind 42 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 2: of investment could be put put to put to good use. 43 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 3: So in decriminalization, the police are still heavily, you know, 44 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 3: working to punish, fined and punish and put through the 45 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 3: court system people that are manufacturing and supplying. 46 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, yeah, So. 47 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 3: Would you would you support tougher sate sentencing and in 48 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 3: that kind of in that kind of area of drugs in. 49 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: New Zeale, We didn't find evidence of that per se. 50 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 2: We did look at what other measures could be in place. 51 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 2: So here's the thing. If we don't do anything at 52 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 2: the moment, not only have things been progressively getting worse 53 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,119 Speaker 2: from addiction to overdose fatalities, to the drug supply ballooning 54 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 2: out of control and new psychoactive substances all the time 55 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: in the last year, that has gotten way more worse, 56 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: if you like. And so if we do nothing, I 57 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 2: can guarantee you that our problems are exponentially going to 58 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 2: grow because we don't just have what's been happening over 59 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 2: the past fifty years. We now have an AI fuelled 60 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 2: drug supply chain. So we're going to experience much more problems. 61 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 3: By an AI fueled drug supply chain. 62 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 2: Well, it is. The drug supply is developing incredibly rapidly. 63 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 2: And for example, just myself, as an anonymous user on 64 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 2: a social media platform, I have had the dark media, 65 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 2: a dark web, sorry, arrive in my inbox offering to 66 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 2: sell me things that I have no interest in buying. 67 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 2: So we are seeing quite a transition happened, I think 68 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 2: under supply chain, and that is going to ramp up 69 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 2: overcoming years. So we need to get more sophisticated in 70 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 2: our approach. We basically have a piece of law that 71 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 2: was written when culor ty they had just been invented, 72 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 2: and we now have a sophisticated AI. We are dealing 73 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 2: with very complex problems with a piece of law that 74 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 2: was at the time trying to grapple with what looks 75 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 2: at you from in hindsight to be barely any problems 76 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 2: at all. 77 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 3: But surely if something pops up on someone's social media 78 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 3: and says here's some drugs, then you just don't click 79 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 3: on that, right. 80 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 2: Well, no, things are changing quite rapidly, I think, yeah. 81 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: But just on that, I mean, I note you mentioned Portugal, 82 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 1: and that's often held up as a as an example 83 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:57,359 Speaker 1: of decriminalization and investment into health and harm reduction. But 84 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: in Portugal it is the the numbers of overdose tests 85 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: has plateaued and is starting to increase again with these 86 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: new synthetic drugs that are entering the market, very difficult 87 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: to control and the danger their SRAH is when these 88 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: new synthetic drugs are coming to the market, if there 89 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: is a decriminalization aspect, very much easier to get hold 90 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: of and arguably harder to control. 91 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 2: Actually that generally that isn't the case. So decriminalization doesn't 92 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 2: encourage drug use, and we've seen that across the board. However, 93 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 2: what you're pointing to is that it doesn't fix everything, 94 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 2: and so that's why we looked at what other measures 95 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 2: could work, and we're suggesting that some more flexibility be 96 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 2: included in the legislation so that as new measures come 97 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 2: to light as being efficacious, that are able to be 98 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 2: enacted much more easily. At the moment, our law is 99 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 2: very in responsive. In fact, it prevents us from doing 100 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 2: some things that we know right now could make a difference, 101 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 2: and so we also want to introduce some more flexibility 102 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: because we need to do more than decriminalization. You're quite right, 103 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 2: it's not a panacea. What it will do is take 104 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 2: some of the edge off, reduce those more acute harms 105 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 2: that are occurring, but it won't fix some of those 106 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 2: supply issues. So we did look around and see what 107 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 2: was there in cannabis. There's some really good evidence around, 108 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 2: you know, a very non commercial, very very restricted supply thing. 109 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 2: We let people in Act Australia there are to have 110 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 2: a couple of plants, or there's these nonprofit clubs where 111 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 2: adults who are in a registered club can share some 112 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 2: cannabis between each other. That seems to do the least harm. 113 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 3: Isn't that kind of a problem. Isn't that kind of 114 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 3: the problem? Srah that there's a blanket approach where people 115 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 3: are looking at drugs as if drugs, all illegal drugs 116 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 3: are the exact same thing. So cannabis is very different 117 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 3: from heroin, which is very different from meth. So why 118 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 3: why why does it drug need a different approach? Is 119 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 3: decriminalization might work for cannabis but might not work for mes. 120 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 2: Oh well, the decriminalization uses one thing. Regulation is a 121 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 2: whole other thing. But I completely agree with you, a 122 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 2: different approach needs to be deployed for each substance. For 123 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 2: the actual use side of things, you're dealing with people 124 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 2: unless they're committing other crime which you can penalize them for, 125 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 2: anyway that you're dealing with something that's just hurting them, 126 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 2: and it basically just becomes this incredible amount of stigma, 127 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 2: shame and inability to come forward and ask what helps you. 128 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: You're asking for those problems to grow. Whereas on the 129 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 2: other side of things, You're quite right, we need to 130 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 2: develop a more sophisticated approach that applies a substance by 131 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 2: substance basis rather than any blanket approaches, which is why 132 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 2: we haven't recommended anything further other than a law that's 133 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 2: able to adapt in flex with new problems. You know, 134 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 2: this is not about endor saying drug use this is 135 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 2: the thing. So the thought has been always that if 136 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 2: you decriminalize, you're somehow endorsing that you're it's about liberalization. 137 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 2: For us, it's the opposite here. We want to see regulation, 138 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 2: safety and control in place. 139 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, so now things are changing really fast. You mentioned 140 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 3: AI before, but the whole when people talk about the 141 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 3: horror show that they're seeing in Vancouver and San Francisco, 142 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 3: and you know, a bunch of people that have been 143 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 3: over there recently are texting in and saying, you know, 144 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 3: it is terrible, just the amount of people the fentifold. 145 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 3: What about that for New Zealand because you know, we're 146 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 3: fighting the drugs that we're fighting now, but surely you 147 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 3: know the fentanyl crisis is coming to New Zealand very soon. 148 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 3: So exactly, yeah, So what are you seeing in thinking 149 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 3: from your perspective on the on the fentanyl crisis and 150 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 3: how to deal with that, because once again, that's a 151 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 3: totally different situation. Again, it's a sometimes prescription drug that 152 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 3: as being heavily abused. 153 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 2: It's horrific, and we really want to avoid that here. 154 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 2: I think we all want to avoid becoming like those 155 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 2: parts of North America that are facing this, which is 156 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 2: exactly why we've put out this report because does it 157 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 2: not feel like we're already heading there. And one of 158 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 2: the things that we have noted this past year is 159 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 2: that for the first time, nitizines, which are actually more 160 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 2: potent than fentanyl, have been reported as having officially having 161 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 2: resulted in overdose fatalities here. So we really need to 162 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 2: act and we can't just think that doing the same 163 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 2: thing is going to work, and what has happened in 164 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 2: North America hasn't been because of those things. That predates 165 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 2: any of those changes. But what I would say is 166 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 2: that we really want to avoid any commercial models of 167 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 2: supply now. 168 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 3: Just finally, would it be worse for people to be 169 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 3: on meth or fentanyl because often there becomes a drug 170 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 3: of choice that sweeps a nation. Is meth or fentanyl worse? 171 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 2: I hate to put it quite like that, but I 172 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 2: would say sentinel results in the HEA give a lot 173 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 2: more fatalities. And the thing, here's the thing. When I 174 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 2: was over in Canada myself a year and a half ago, 175 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 2: I met with one of the heads of the police 176 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 2: force in British Columbia and I asked them, what would 177 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 2: you do if you could go back in time? Is 178 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 2: you know, kind of New Zealanders at this point And 179 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 2: they said to me, well, to be honest, we wish 180 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 2: we could have a safe supply of heroin, which was 181 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 2: their drug a choice at the time, because it would 182 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 2: have prevented people going onto fentanyl in the first place. 183 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 2: So we need to think more creatively and look for solutions. 184 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 2: We also need a law that allows us to adapt 185 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 2: because what might seem completely unpalatable and unrealistic right now. 186 00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 2: In ten years time, we may need to deploy. We're 187 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 2: not suggesting that by any stretch, but what we are 188 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 2: saying was we do need a flexible law. 189 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: Sarah, thank you very much for joining us. It's a 190 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: bold idea and appreciate your time very much. That is 191 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: Sarah Holme, executive director of the New Zealand Drug Foundation. 192 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,199 Speaker 3: For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to 193 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 3: news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow 194 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 3: the podcast on iHeartRadio.