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Speaker 1: Kiota, I'm Chelsea Daniels and from the team behind the

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Speaker 1: front page. The New Zealand Herald's daily news podcast, This

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Speaker 1: is Accused The Polkinghorn trial over a series of weeks,

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Speaker 1: in conjunction with our usual daily episodes, will be bringing

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Speaker 1: you regular coverage as one of the most high profile

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Speaker 1: trials of the year makes its way through the High

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Speaker 1: Court at Auckland. A warning, this podcast contains disturbing content.

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Speaker 1: Originally due to run for six weeks, the trial of

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Speaker 1: Philip Polkinghorn is now in its seventh week. The former

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Speaker 1: Auckland eye surgeon is accused of murdering his wife, Pauline Hannah,

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Speaker 1: who was found dead on April fifth, twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 1: He maintains she took her own life. More witnesses from

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Speaker 1: the defense took to the stand to discuss their thoughts

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Speaker 1: on how Hannah died and the risk factors that could

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Speaker 1: have pushed her to take her own life. New emails

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Speaker 1: from Hannah were read to the court, and the question

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Speaker 1: on if she used her phone on the night before

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Speaker 1: she died saw one Crown witness return to the stand.

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Speaker 1: Day twenty seven saw Professor Stephen Cordner continue his evidence

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Speaker 1: He is the defense pathologist whose evidence began on day

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Speaker 1: twenty six. Under questioning from defense lawyer Ron Mansfield, Cordner

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Speaker 1: continued running through his findings related to Hannah's body. He

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Speaker 1: confirmed there's no evidence of sexual activity or a sexual

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Speaker 1: assault from the pathology report or photographs he's examined. At

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Speaker 1: the time of death. Cordner said that mobility remains for

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Speaker 1: twelve to twenty four hours. Three to six hours before

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Speaker 1: Hannah was found is a fair estimate for the time

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Speaker 1: of death, he said, but it's not always cut or dry.

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Speaker 1: There was still mobility between the time the body is

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Speaker 1: at the scene on April fifth, twenty twenty one, and

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Speaker 1: the autopsy the following day. There was no specific injuries

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Speaker 1: indicative of a past assault. Mansfield then turned to earlier

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Speaker 1: evidence of one of the pathologists called by the Crown,

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Speaker 1: doctor Martin Sage, who was called to discuss the evidence

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Speaker 1: of the pathologist who undertook the autopsy, doctor Keelak Kesher.

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Speaker 1: Sage had said the lack of marks on the neck

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Speaker 1: are uncommon, as was the fact the mark on one

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Speaker 1: side of her neck disappeared from the time her body

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Speaker 1: was found to the autopsy the next day. Cordn had disagreed.

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Speaker 1: He said it's a well recognized phenomenon. Little or no

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Speaker 1: mark can be left by a ligature in a hanging.

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Speaker 1: He said he doesn't think it's common, but his I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure any pathologist has a good reading on how

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Speaker 1: common or uncommon it is. Sage was then asked about

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Speaker 1: the fact that mark was an artifact by the time

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Speaker 1: of the post mortem and said he thinks it doesn't

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Speaker 1: tell us much. Cordner says, it tells us one thing

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Speaker 1: that the interaction between the belt and the neck was static.

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Speaker 1: If there had been relative movement between the belt and

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Speaker 1: the neck, there would have been something in the way

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Speaker 1: of an abrasion. Earlier, Cordner said the lack of neck

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Speaker 1: abrasions went against the strangulation theory, given strangulation homicides a violent,

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Speaker 1: dynamic affairs where the ligature is likely to move around.

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Speaker 1: Mansfield then asked Cordner for his views on Keelak and

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Speaker 1: Sage both ruling that Hannah's cause of death was neck compression.

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Speaker 2: So, as you know, doctor Kellix have been reported and

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Speaker 2: has report that death was as a result of neck compression,

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Speaker 2: and so doctor Sage was being asked for it might

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Speaker 2: be vague or could that be criticized as being vague?

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Speaker 3: I think was the point. What's your response to that?

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Speaker 4: Well, I agree with the way his.

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Speaker 5: Summarize it, which is it neither he nor doctor Kelak

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Speaker 5: prepared to say what sort of neck compassion, So they.

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Speaker 4: Leave either.

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Speaker 5: Suicidal hanging or homicidal ligature manual strangulation open.

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Speaker 4: As possibilities.

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Speaker 5: So as we've already said, I think my view is

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Speaker 5: that it's reasonable, and it's.

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Speaker 4: My view to go a bit further.

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Speaker 3: And what would you what would you say.

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Speaker 5: The cause of dempos the finding support hanging and there's

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Speaker 5: no findings just support homicidal ligature or manual strangulation. And

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Speaker 5: that's the way we approach all the hangings that we

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Speaker 5: deal with.

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Speaker 4: So that's what I think a reasonable to part here is.

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Speaker 1: Mansfield then asked Cordner about several parts of the case

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Speaker 1: that are considered suspicious. Cordner said, there isn't anything suspicious

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Speaker 1: about the ligature not circling the entire neck, nor is

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Speaker 1: there anything unusual about the scene being tampered with.

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Speaker 2: One for the question I have for you, and it

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Speaker 2: might be about a leab apparent already if you were

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Speaker 2: responsible for this case by way of the attending pathologist,

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Speaker 2: how would you have reported the cause of death?

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Speaker 4: I think.

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Speaker 5: If I had been responsible for this case, would have

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Speaker 5: concluded that because of death was hanging, because the findings

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Speaker 5: fit with hanging and there are no findings to support

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Speaker 5: the alternative of homicidal ligature or manual strangulation.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, what do you think about the absence of

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Speaker 2: those injuries, meaning it needs to be left open?

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Speaker 5: Well, if we added into that where you've you know

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Speaker 5: that somehow you've you know, we've had the discussion abat

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Speaker 5: the absence of findings and whether that might be compatible

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Speaker 5: with an arm around the front of the neck. And

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Speaker 5: if we allow that possibility, then we'd be not coming

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Speaker 5: to conclusions of hanging in all the cases we do,

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Speaker 5: because we'd have to say in answer to that question, well,

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Speaker 5: you know, in this in every case of hanging, there's

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Speaker 5: a possibility that it's a person has been done away

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Speaker 5: within that surptitious way.

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Speaker 1: It was then Auckland Crown Solicitor Alicia McClintock's turn to

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Speaker 1: begin her cross examination of Professor Stephen Cordner. Cordner said

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Speaker 1: that his answers are grounded in forensic pathology, and he

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Speaker 1: can't answer on factors such as if Hannah was suicidal

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Speaker 1: the night before her death. Cordner confirms he knows doctor Sage.

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Speaker 1: McClintock asked if Sage is the leading forensic pathologist together

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Speaker 1: with doctor Simon Stables.

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Speaker 6: Oh.

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Speaker 5: Look, I said in my report that you know, I

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Speaker 5: think everybody involved is providing their professional evidence and advice

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Speaker 5: and contribution, so you know, perfectly for people to have

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Speaker 5: different point of view and other people will work out

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Speaker 5: which point of view.

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Speaker 7: Is preferred, of course, And I think doctor Sage told

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Speaker 7: us that he's seen eleven I think hangings this year in.

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Speaker 8: Something like eight hundred overall.

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Speaker 7: So he's seeing this in his daily practice, including at

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Speaker 7: current point and time. And that's your understanding of his

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Speaker 7: his He's.

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Speaker 4: A very experienced fantic pathologist.

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Speaker 7: Yes, and so really it reduces to a narrowish I guess,

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Speaker 7: although important issue is the extent to which the pathology

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Speaker 7: can truly help on the distinction between whether this case

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Speaker 7: involves homicidal net compression or suicidal net compression.

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Speaker 8: Again, that's the number of the thing.

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Speaker 9: Isn't it that.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I've said that.

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Speaker 1: Before mcclentock and Corner went back and forth a two

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Speaker 1: centimeter bruise on Hannah's temple. Cordner said earlier it was

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Speaker 1: a non specific injury that could have occurred anytime in

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Speaker 1: the twenty four hours before death, McClintock said. Cordner said

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Speaker 1: earlier the bruise could be the result of a fall

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Speaker 1: into something, but a punch or other manual blow can't

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Speaker 1: be excluded. But McClintock said there's nothing to positively suggest

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Speaker 1: a full versus a punch, hence the conclusion non specific injury,

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Speaker 1: said Cordner. He said quantifying force for this bruise is difficult.

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Speaker 7: He used the term trivial, I think in relation to

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Speaker 7: other injuries. So can we take from that that this

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Speaker 7: one the level of force to cause it, and you'll

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Speaker 7: use more than what the trivial A snitch agreat with

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Speaker 7: that you told us in evidence, and again this is

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Speaker 7: at two five, three three of your honor's notes. It's

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Speaker 7: actually quite difficult to bruise the scalp with a punch

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Speaker 7: because it's such, you know, it's pretty thick sort of skin,

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Speaker 7: and a punch usually a broader sort of area, a

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Speaker 7: broader area of contact.

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Speaker 8: But I cannot distinguish what sort of impact do you

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Speaker 8: remember saying that?

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Speaker 7: Yes, so can we agree, professor that if it is

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Speaker 7: a punch, appreciating the qualifications about that.

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Speaker 8: Then it's been a decent one.

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Speaker 4: I think it's probably reasonable.

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Speaker 5: And I think, you know, probably is a bit easier

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Speaker 5: to get such a burse, you know, knocking into a

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Speaker 5: wall or door or something like that.

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Speaker 7: Sure, but if it's a punch on the level of

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Speaker 7: force you have described, it's a decent one.

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Speaker 5: I think a decent punch would be a fair description.

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Speaker 4: Yes.

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Speaker 1: McClintock next went onto the wound to Hannah's nose bridge,

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Speaker 1: described by Mansfield as a small graze. The autopsy pathologist,

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Speaker 1: doctor Kesher, had said there was a hemorrhage associated with

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Speaker 1: the injury. Having seen it both at the scene and

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Speaker 1: at the autopsy, Cordner said he accepts there was a hemorrhage.

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Speaker 1: He earlier said he believed the injury could have been

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Speaker 1: caused after death, similar to the injury to Hannah's ear.

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Speaker 1: Cordner said that the bleeding of the nose injury increases

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Speaker 1: the likelihood it occurred while Hannah was alive, but he

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Speaker 1: didn't rule out the injury being suffered after death. The

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Speaker 1: jury then asked a question on this, which was read

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Speaker 1: out by McClintock. On the photograph of Hannah's nose, to

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Speaker 1: the layman, it looks bruised.

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Speaker 10: The pathologist says, it's not bruised.

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Speaker 1: Can you please explain the bruised appearance, they asked. Cordner

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Speaker 1: said that while the nose looks slightly swollen, that's not

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Speaker 1: bruising and may have been the shape of Hannah's nose.

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Speaker 1: He said, the purple color is post mortem development resulting

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Speaker 1: from congestion. That's when you block the veins, but the

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Speaker 1: blood is still being pumped into the head via the arteries,

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Speaker 1: which require more pressure to obstruct. They then moved on

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Speaker 1: to the constellation of bruises to Hannah's right arm. Mansfield

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Speaker 1: pulled a photo of the bruises out on day twenty six,

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Speaker 1: where the bruises weren't seen at the Upland road scene.

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Speaker 1: Cordner earlier testified that he doesn't believe they occurred prior

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Speaker 1: to death, but under questioning from McClintock, Cordner said that

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Speaker 1: it's fair to say he doesn't know for certain when

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Speaker 1: the injury occurred. If it didn't happen in life, you said,

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Speaker 1: there's more to discuss, is that what you said, asks McClintock.

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Speaker 8: If it did happen in life, there's more to discuss.

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Speaker 8: You see.

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Speaker 4: It's yes, yep, And.

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Speaker 8: Presumably that's because a grip to the arm and life.

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Speaker 7: What you mean is, well, look, that possibly is an assault,

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Speaker 7: but it's possibly something else. Yes, and we know that

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Speaker 7: it's not yellow, so that at least gives us that

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Speaker 7: time frame. So if it did, and this is a

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Speaker 7: matter for the jury again, isn't it But if it

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Speaker 7: did happen prior to death, we would now have three

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Speaker 7: injury is within a similar time frame, either prior to

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Speaker 7: or about the time of death. It's also possible that

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Speaker 7: this one, based on your analysis, could have occurred another way.

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Speaker 8: Set fifth.

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Speaker 1: Cordner and Kesha both agree that an abrasion to Hannah's

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Speaker 1: back likely occurred after death. They also agreed that blood

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Speaker 1: from Hannah's ear likely wasn't an injury either. The blood

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Speaker 1: from the ear seems apparent on the pillow on which

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Speaker 1: she was lying on after her body had been moved.

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Speaker 1: Cordner said, he said, that's the best conclusion. McClintock then

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Speaker 1: showed Cordner photographs of Hannah's hands adorned with rings. She said,

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Speaker 1: there's no obvious sign of blood on the underside of

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Speaker 1: her hands.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think you want to resist the temptation of

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Speaker 5: time to come to too many specific conclusion in a

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Speaker 5: circumstance where you know the predictability of where bits and

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Speaker 5: pieces are moving turn farm and around in between, as

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Speaker 5: the dynamism of moving a dead body from one place

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Speaker 5: turnout may be.

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Speaker 4: Happened.

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Speaker 5: So the possibility, the way I have thought about this

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Speaker 5: is just possibly at some point while a body's being moved,

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Speaker 5: the hand has somehow got close to the air. That's

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Speaker 5: the way I've been thinking about it.

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Speaker 7: And if that's happened though, somehow the blood's ended up

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Speaker 7: in between her fingers, yes, but nowhere else that we

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Speaker 7: can sit.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, well, I really, I really don't think you

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Speaker 5: should be skeptical about that.

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Speaker 7: But that's what's happened based on this is the only

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Speaker 7: place we have blood is in between her fingers and

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Speaker 7: not otherwise on her hand, And.

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Speaker 8: As a pathologist not interpreting the rest of the evidence.

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Speaker 7: As a pathologist, you can't discount that their hand's been

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Speaker 7: cleaned and that blood's been missed.

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Speaker 5: Oh, as a pathologist, but you know, I imagine they

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Speaker 5: looked for that sort of possibility where they're fibers or

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Speaker 5: anything on it that might have suggested that.

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Speaker 8: As a pathologist, you can't discount it, though.

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Speaker 9: Can you.

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Speaker 5: No.

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Speaker 4: No, Well, I don't.

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Speaker 5: Nothing to specifically suggest it to me as a pathologist.

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Speaker 4: But if you're saying to me, could that hand have been.

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Speaker 5: You know, as a sort of factual thing cleaned, I

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Speaker 5: can't say no.

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Speaker 1: Onto the horizontal impression on her neck, Cordner said, impartial suspension,

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Speaker 1: you don't get the clear upward ligature mark.

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Speaker 10: Instead, it's broadly horizontal.

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Speaker 1: So the mark scene on Hannah's neck is perfectly compatible

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Speaker 1: with a partial suspension hanging, he said. Cordner agreed when

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Speaker 1: McClintock asked whether a homicide victim's ability to resist an

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Speaker 1: assault may be affected by the body's position they're in

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Speaker 1: at the time, Cordner agreed, someone who could do a

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Speaker 1: corroded or choker hold would be able to do it

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Speaker 1: to someone on their front, and that hold can cause

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Speaker 1: unconsciousness within ten to twelve seconds, but the hold would

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Speaker 1: need to be sustained.

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Speaker 5: Perhaps another qualifier of your question might be you mentioned,

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Speaker 5: you know, provided the person you had to do it,

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Speaker 5: if they weren't intending to kill the person, they're obviously

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Speaker 5: less likely to get injured. But you know, you might

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Speaker 5: think that someone who's trying to kill someone might apply

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Speaker 5: more force to that arm around the neck, and they've

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Speaker 5: more more likely to leave injuries. And that accord with

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Speaker 5: my own sort of view that in death associated with

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Speaker 5: that it would be more likely to see injuries.

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Speaker 7: You know, it just very much depends on what's happening

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Speaker 7: at the time, doesn't.

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Speaker 4: It depends on what's happening at the time. Yes.

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Speaker 7: If a person has been surprised by an assailant or asleep,

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Speaker 7: for example, and someone manages to get pressure on their neck,

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Speaker 7: that person is you've told us, could lose consciousness really

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Speaker 7: quite quickly, couldn't they.

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Speaker 5: Yes, People of course can wake up very quickly, even

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Speaker 5: more quickly.

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Speaker 7: Yes, it's surprised or asleep that.

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Speaker 8: Might affect their ability to resist.

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Speaker 4: Data. It's Mike.

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Speaker 1: Referencing Cordner's earlier reference of a case where an eleven

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Speaker 1: year old was drugged and unable to fight back from

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Speaker 1: an assault McClintock said that Hannah did have twice the

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Speaker 1: recommended level of the sedative sleeping pill zopper clone in

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Speaker 1: his system, so it was self sedated and had drunk

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Speaker 1: alcohol as well. Cordner said it was a pretty low

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Speaker 1: level of alcohol.

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Speaker 7: The degree of sedation and a victim is certainly a

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Speaker 7: relevant factor to the degree of resistance that they can

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Speaker 7: put up, and to use your terminology, whether that victim

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Speaker 7: is unable to fight back, it's a factor, isn't it.

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Speaker 4: It is a factor.

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Speaker 5: But I think you know to complete the discussion, I

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Speaker 5: mean you mentioned the possibility that you know, if you

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Speaker 5: take those sorts of dug large zopper climb for a

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Speaker 5: period of time, you get used to them. And so

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Speaker 5: not clear to me that you know, because it seems

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Speaker 5: she has been taking them for a long time, that

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Speaker 5: she would necessarily be significantly affected by them. And if

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Speaker 5: she's awake, they're not doing their purpose, are they.

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Speaker 1: McClintock then asked, you don't know whether Pauline Hannah was asleep,

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Speaker 1: and you don't know what body position she was in

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Speaker 1: when she died. Cordner said the expectation would be that

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Speaker 1: such a person would wake rapidly, instantly, and would do

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Speaker 1: anything in their utmost power to resist and escape from

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Speaker 1: the position they're in. And if there is a great

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Speaker 1: disparity in strength, then that's a relevant factor too. On

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Speaker 1: Hannah's potential tolerance to ZOPPA clone, McClintock said, we don't

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Speaker 1: know that for sure because it wasn't prescribed to her,

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Speaker 1: instead being prescribed in the name of Polkinghorn. Cordner said

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Speaker 1: it may or may not have had an effect. He

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Speaker 1: also reiterated that it would have been difficult for one

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Speaker 1: person to move a body around even if they were

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Speaker 1: in a fireman's hold. Asked what the positive pathological findings

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Speaker 1: for suicide that aren't also explained by a homicide, Cordner said,

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Speaker 1: it's a combination of the signs of the compression of

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Speaker 1: the neck plus the static mark on the front of

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Speaker 1: the neck. In circumstances, whether lividity is compatible with the

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Speaker 1: deceased having been seated onto the small fresh wound found

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Speaker 1: on Polkinghorn's forehead, Cordner says had been told that was

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Speaker 1: an injury to do with moving Hannah's body down from

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Speaker 1: the chair, as Polkinghorn told police he did. On the

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Speaker 1: instructions of the one one one call taker.

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Speaker 7: It could be a nail mark. And I think you

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Speaker 7: said as much yourself in your report, didn't you?

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Speaker 4: Yes, And.

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Speaker 7: The studies that you have looked at in relation to this,

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Speaker 7: I think you see this about thirteen out of twenty

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Speaker 7: of the cases you looked at did.

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Speaker 8: Have nail marks or some other nail.

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Speaker 3: Oh, there is injuries.

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Speaker 4: There is a reported.

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Speaker 5: You know, there's a paper in the electric looking at

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Speaker 5: injuries to people alleged to be assailants in manual or

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Speaker 5: ligature strangulation cases. And as you said, thirteen out of

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Speaker 5: twenty had some injuries.

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Speaker 7: You accept that that injury based on what you saw,

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Speaker 7: putting aside what explanation there may or may not be

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Speaker 7: about it, that that injury could be a nail mark

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Speaker 7: on his forehead.

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Speaker 4: I couldn't rule it out, non.

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Speaker 8: May I suggest? Is the case on the pathology with

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Speaker 8: many things in this.

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Speaker 5: Particularly that there is further discussion to be had about

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Speaker 5: it if you want to. But I mean, as you've

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Speaker 5: asked the question, can I rule that out as being

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Speaker 5: a result of a a nail.

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Speaker 4: The enter is no.

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Speaker 5: But the photo of that injury is virtually another one

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Speaker 5: that I've seen virtually useless.

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Speaker 1: Cordner said he would think more of it if there

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Speaker 1: was a single, ill defined injury on his forehead. The

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Speaker 1: Crown ended their cross examination. Defense lawyer Ron Mansfield then

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Speaker 1: addressed McClintock's suggestion that Hannah was sedated due to Zopper

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Speaker 1: clone a sleeping pill. McClintock said she's not suggesting at

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Speaker 1: all Hannah was sedated to the point of unconsciousness, but

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Speaker 1: possibly to the point it had affected her ability to resist.

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Speaker 1: Mansfield says he wanted to make sure the Crown case

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Speaker 1: wasn't pivoting to suggest Hannah was unconscious or unable to

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Speaker 1: respond at all. Turning to the witness, Mansfield asked how

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Speaker 1: quickly someone would wake if they were assaulted. Cordner said

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Speaker 1: very quickly, and they would began resisting almost immediately. He

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Speaker 1: also said there's still the chance of injuries to both

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Speaker 1: the assailant and the victim, and would have expected that

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Speaker 1: and Hannah given her age. Asked again about the blood

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Speaker 1: found between Hannah's fingers, Cordner said it should not be viewed.

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Speaker 10: As a suspicious circumstance.

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Speaker 1: The next defense witness was doctor Olav Nielsen, who has

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Speaker 1: a Master of Criminology and a PhD from the University

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Speaker 1: of Sydney. He's also a consultant psychiatrist and works with

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Speaker 1: the homeless. Nielsen has a particular professional interest in depression

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Speaker 1: and suicidal risk, he said, is published about forty papers

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Speaker 1: on suicide and it's a big part of his work

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Speaker 1: with the homeless. He confirmed he is aware of the

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Speaker 1: Crown case against Polkinghorn and he's reviewed his April fifth,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one police interview transcript, the toxicology report, the

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Speaker 1: long Lands recording, and some medical notes from Hannah's GP

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Speaker 1: and prescription details. Under questioning from defense lawyer Ron Mansfield,

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Speaker 1: Neilson said she definitely had an alcohol use disorder, though

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Speaker 1: it may have lessened in recent years.

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Speaker 10: A bottle of wine a night for.

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Speaker 1: Over a decade, as she described around twenty thirteen, was

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Speaker 1: a hazardous level for a woman. Neilson says alcohol is

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Speaker 1: excellent at relieving anxiety until it wears off when anxiety worsens.

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Speaker 1: He notes Hannah was on fluexitine aka prozac for about

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Speaker 1: twenty years, and so how does.

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Speaker 3: The use of alcohol with that medication?

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Speaker 2: Are there any factors or are there any complexities? That

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Speaker 2: we need to be aware of in relation to the

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Speaker 2: use of alcohol with those medications.

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Speaker 9: Well, just rendering them less effective.

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Speaker 11: For basically, it's just an arm wrestle where the alcohol's winning.

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Speaker 1: She was prescribed medications to treat alcohol use disorders. There

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Speaker 1: was also a prescription for diazepam to mitigate with dural symptoms.

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Speaker 1: He agreed it might be relevant that Hannah had consumed

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Speaker 1: red wine the night before she was found dead in

394
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Speaker 1: the morning. The alcohol renders the antidepressant medication ineffective, countering

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Speaker 1: any beneficial effect.

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Speaker 10: From her long term use. He says.

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Speaker 1: Hannah was also on weight loss medication, including one which

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Speaker 1: was then removed from the market. It was replaced with

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Speaker 1: fentamine about twenty ten, which Hannah then began taking.

400
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Speaker 2: And what's fit to mein what can you help us

401
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 2: or tell us.

402
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Speaker 11: About that particular drone. Look, it's basically an amphetamine. It's

403
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 11: a lowish dose, you know, fifteen milligrams. They come in

404
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 11: a thirty milligram tablet as well. But they work exactly

405
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 11: this name as every other amphetamine you know dex amphetamine

406
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 11: for ADHD, you know amphetamine or methamphetamine.

407
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 9: They working in the same way.

408
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Speaker 2: So that particular medication would how would that work in

409
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 2: combination with the medication you've told us she's on in

410
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Speaker 2: relation to depression and anxiety.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, well, again it's it's not a very good practice.

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Speaker 9: I'd have to say.

413
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Speaker 11: I don't mean to criticize a colleague, but the firstly,

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Speaker 11: if you try and prescribe phetamine or fluoxetine when a

415
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 11: person's already on it, you're you're your prescribing program will

416
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Speaker 11: say there's a contry indication. So there is a potentially

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Speaker 11: dangerous contra indication.

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Speaker 3: People's there, what's a contra indication?

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Speaker 11: Perhaps there's an interaction. I should have said, it should

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Speaker 11: have been the word I used, a potentially dangerous interaction

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Speaker 11: in that the phantomine can cause serotonin syndrome, which is

422
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Speaker 11: a sort of an excess serotonin in people who. I mean,

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Speaker 11: it's a rare and obviously you know there's plenty of

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00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 11: people on that combination, but even so it's that's hazardous and.

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Speaker 3: What does that mean?

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Speaker 9: By way of that come.

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00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 11: Yeah, well it's a look, it causes a dangerous delirium

428
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Speaker 11: with a sort of an autonomic and.

429
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 9: Again I don't want to get technical, but.

430
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 11: Where there's too much serotonin and people become confused and

431
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 11: have rabbit heartbeat and can even die. This is what,

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00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 11: for example, kills young people at music festivals. It's the

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00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 11: serotonin syndrome from taking MDMA for example.

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Speaker 1: Neilson said that the combination of drugs was not ideal

435
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: and that Hannah clearly developed a tolerance to several of

436
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: them due to long term use, and it didn't work

437
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 1: well with her mental health issues. In particular, the combination

438
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Speaker 1: of Hannah's chronic depression and the combination of Zoppo clone

439
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: and alcohol are very dangerous for suicide, he said.

440
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 10: He said that.

441
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 1: It's clear that Hannah was very perfectionist, and we've heard

442
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: that from others in the trial as well. He said

443
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: high achievers can take their own lives, even if unsuccessful

444
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 1: people are more likely to, and that it's not uncommon

445
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: for people to mask their true mental state and feelings

446
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: from those around them, such as colleagues. Nielsen says only

447
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: thirty to forty percent of people leave suicide notes he

448
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: didn't see any evidence of Hannah having seen a psychiatrist

449
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 1: or psychologist on any long term basis. Based on Hannah's

450
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: alleged previous attempt as told to the court by her

451
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: sister Tracy, and Hannah's work pressures, and the cocktail of

452
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: drugs and alcohol that put Hannah in a higher risk group.

453
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 1: Nielson confirmed he's not here to confirm anything about whether

454
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: she committed suicide. He's just here to speak about the

455
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: factors that very greatly increased her risk compared to other people.

456
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: For coverage of other news events in New Zealand, listen

457
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: to the front page The Herald's daily news podcast wherever

458
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. The start of week seven of

459
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: the trial was delayed due to an illness of a

460
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: jury member, so Day twenty eight started on the Tuesday

461
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: with the defense calling doctor Christopher Milroy. He appeared via

462
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: video link from Canada. He's the second high profile pathologist

463
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: the defense have called to give evidence. Doctor Milroy confirmed

464
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: he's been a colleague of doctor Stephen Cordner for about

465
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: thirty years. He's been called by the defense to comment

466
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: on Cordner's evidence. Following comments earlier in the trial by

467
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: a Crown witness, doctor Martin Sage, suggested Cordner was trying

468
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: too hard to contend the death was a suicide, but

469
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: Milroy disagreed.

470
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 12: I would still say that the most likely cause of

471
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 12: death in this case was hanging with partial suspension features.

472
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 6: But we would therefore give the cause of death as hanging.

473
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 2: Thank you, and having reviewed this case, do you have

474
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 2: any concerns with their opinion.

475
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 12: I don't have concerns with giving an opinion of hanging.

476
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: Milroy has also seen the evidence given by all three

477
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: previous pathologists who have all given evidence in this trial.

478
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: He went on to explain why he supported Cordner that

479
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: Hannah's death was self inflicted.

480
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 12: I really would expect if it was manual strangulation through throttling,

481
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 12: to see external injuries and internal injuries, and particularly in

482
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 12: a lady of miss Hannah's age, damage to the voice

483
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 12: box structures and or hyoid bone, because they are more

484
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 12: frag brittle.

485
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 6: As we get older. We lay down their cartilage when

486
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 6: we're young.

487
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 12: So it's typical not to see anything in young people,

488
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 12: even in homicidal strangulation in terms of damage to the

489
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 12: voice box cartilage and the hyoid bone, which is this

490
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 12: bone that's just above.

491
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 6: But as you get older.

492
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 12: Income they become more like bone, and they become more brittle.

493
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 12: They become more like chalk that can snap. And so

494
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 12: if you compress someone manually, I would have expected to

495
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 12: have seen fractures.

496
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: Milroy added for homicide or ligature strangulations, you would usually

497
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: see resistance and expect to see external injuries. Mansfield moved

498
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: on to Hannah's use of the sleeping pill Zoba clone.

499
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: You'll remember analysis of her blood and hair showed the

500
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: presence of the drug. Milroy said it can be difficult

501
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: to know what effect a drug might have based on

502
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: a post mortem. He explained, even though the trial had

503
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: heard earlier it was twice the normal dose, it was

504
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: still within the therapeutic range. He added, sleeping pills don't

505
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: act in the same way as anesthetic drugs.

506
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 12: The thing about sedating drugs is that they're intended to

507
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 12: help you go to sleep, but it doesn't mean that

508
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 12: they're an anesthetic. It doesn't mean that you render someone unconscious.

509
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 12: They fall asleep, and then people can be woken up

510
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 12: from the sleep, and I would still expect the person

511
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 12: to fight back with this degree of zopiclone. Inordinarily we

512
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 12: would not consider it in any way relevant to the

513
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 12: cause of death, but in terms of its effects, it

514
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:56,719
Speaker 12: can't be.

515
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 6: It can't.

516
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 12: I mean, the person may have taken help them go

517
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 12: to sleep.

518
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 6: They may be a little bit more.

519
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 12: Groggy than they would otherwise be if they weren't on it,

520
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 12: but they may be very tolerant because they've been on

521
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 12: it for six months and one would expect them to

522
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 12: wake up if attacked.

523
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: Under cross examination by Crown Solicitor Alicia McClintock, Milroy confirmed

524
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: he provided a report on August twenty first, twenty twenty four,

525
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: after doctor Stephen Cordener's approach was questioned by doctor Martin

526
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: Sage during the Crown case. This was well into the trial.

527
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: During her cross examination, McClintock asked if he's familiar with

528
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: the term non fatal strangulation. Milroy explained in England he

529
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: would occasionally see cases of people had been strangled and survived.

530
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: McClintock asked if these non fatal strangulations can often leave

531
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: little or no non fatal injuries. Yes, he said, but

532
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: he's also seen non fatal cases that look worse than

533
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: fatal cases. The other caveat is we don't dissect the

534
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: necks of survivors.

535
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 8: Thank you.

536
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 7: In non fatal strangulation, would you agree as a common

537
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,919
Speaker 7: feature of violence against women? Yes, and is it also

538
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 7: well none in the medical profession that non fatal strangulation

539
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,280
Speaker 7: is a key marker for the escalation of domestic violence.

540
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 8: Yes, are you aware.

541
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 7: Of a British Medical Journal study indicating that it raised

542
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 7: the risk of someone becoming a victim of a homicide

543
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,800
Speaker 7: or serious future harm by around seven and a half

544
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 7: at times in victim survivors.

545
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 12: I'm not specifically aware of that study, but I accept

546
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 12: and I think it's fair to point out that almost

547
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 12: all the cases I dealt with clinically have been female

548
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 12: victims with a male perpetrator.

549
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,240
Speaker 1: You'll remember, earlier in the trial, Hannah's family friends John

550
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: and Pheasant Reardon told the court that she told them

551
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,399
Speaker 1: Pulkinghorn had previously put his hands on her neck as

552
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: a strangulation. Thread her questioning moved on to the differing

553
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 1: opinions of pathologists called by both sides of the case.

554
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 7: You're not suggesting doctor Sage hasn't also been fair and scientific,

555
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 7: nor are you suggesting that of doctor Kesha.

556
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 6: Is it right? That's correct.

557
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 7: It's just that they look at the possibilities aspect differently

558
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 7: to Professor Coordiner and what you've told us today, don't they?

559
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 9: Well?

560
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 12: And I say that in my report, I said that

561
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 12: this is a case where people are looking at possibilities.

562
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 8: Could we put it this way?

563
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 7: The pathology is obviously a very important aspect and we

564
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 7: must take care with its conclusions.

565
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 8: But you're not saying, and.

566
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 7: I think you've made this clear, But just so everyone's clear,

567
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 7: you're not saying pathology is the one source of truth here.

568
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 6: No, No, absolutely not.

569
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: McClintock questioned his comments on Zoppo clone and how Hannah

570
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 1: might have developed a tolerance.

571
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 7: One of the concerns about zopper clone is its use.

572
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 7: It is a drug used to drug other people. I'm

573
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 7: not suggesting that's what's happened here at all, but that's

574
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 7: one of its concerns. Is a particularly combined with alcohol,

575
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,240
Speaker 7: it can be used in that way to cause excess sedation.

576
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,240
Speaker 9: Correct, Well, yeah.

577
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 12: It's not one of the ones I'm familiar as familiar

578
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 12: with as some other drugs, but and I could see

579
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:45,760
Speaker 12: that that could be the case.

580
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 1: Melroy added the assessment of SR toxicologist Helen Paulson was

581
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,439
Speaker 1: fair that Hannah had taken the drug over a six

582
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: month period, though the frequency and level of use is

583
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: hard to say. McClintock then asked, is sooperclone sometimes used

584
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 1: to sedate people and how quickly someone sedated on zopperclone

585
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: would wake up.

586
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 12: What I would say is that the concentrations were not high.

587
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 12: In other words, there's no evidence of significant excess.

588
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 6: Of being taken. But I concede that.

589
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 12: In any drug, in any individual, unless we know exactly

590
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 12: how they would perform, we are to a certain extent

591
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 12: speculating both ways in one of them, both in terms

592
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 12: of it's both in terms of its sedation or non sedation.

593
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 1: Neutrality came into question.

594
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 12: Because I think the pathology certainly favors suicidal hanging in

595
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 12: the context of suicide versus homicide because of the known

596
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 12: fine soft ligature, partial suspension hanging, and the absence of.

597
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,479
Speaker 6: Injury on the neck.

598
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 12: And therefore, in my opinion, when you look at it,

599
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 12: it much more strongly favors suicide ober homicide. So you

600
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 12: couldn't say it was neutral. It's not a fifty to

601
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 12: fifty coin toss.

602
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 1: Before finishing, McClintock asked if strangulations staged as a suicide

603
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 1: are even a thing. Milroy replied, that's correct. Defense lawyer

604
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 1: Ron Mansfield had questions in response around the use of

605
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: the term possibilities.

606
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 6: I've never seen a report on a.

607
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 12: Hanging, suicidal hanging, or self inflicted hanging where someone has

608
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 12: put in the caveat I can't exclude homicidal on net compression.

609
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 6: I've never seen it.

610
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 12: And just to give some context, in the last fourteen years,

611
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 12: my unit has done nearly a thousand hangings, of which

612
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 12: a proportion will be will be partial suspension.

613
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: Milroe said he's only ever seen one case of an

614
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: attempted concealed homicide where someone had tried to make it

615
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: look like a suicide. In his career, he's examined six

616
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 1: hundred or seven hundred self inflicted hangings. The next witness

617
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 1: was Atakhan Shaho. He's a director and senior technician at

618
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,919
Speaker 1: a company called Our Computer Guy. The company specializes in

619
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: data security and medical software integration, predominantly in health and law.

620
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 1: Shaho has a lengthy career working with Apple as a

621
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: software developer and with NASA, as well as with medical systems.

622
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: He was asked to forensically examine the material disclosed to

623
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 1: the defense from the police as part of the investigation. Specifically,

624
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: he looked at the cloned Celebrate phone data and the

625
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: laptop data. Shaho confirms he's familiar with cell Bright and Axiom,

626
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 1: the software used by New Zealand police to clone and

627
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:18,879
Speaker 1: examine the phones and computers.

628
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 2: You can use Celebrate or Exiom dex is either a

629
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 2: mobile phone or a laptop. Or if you know what

630
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 2: you're doing, you can gain xcess to a mobile phone

631
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 2: or a laptop even if you're not appraised of the

632
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 2: relevant passwords exactly.

633
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 13: But you do, you do lose the ability to so

634
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 13: for example, on an iPhone if it's locked to iCloud,

635
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 13: and some people might know this that if you don't

636
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 13: know the pin code or you don't know the I

637
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 13: Cloud password, you can't get into the data. And that's

638
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 13: because Apple has a secure enplay in their iCloud and

639
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 13: that protects the contacts, the calendars, and the usually the

640
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,800
Speaker 13: text messages and other facets of the data on the database.

641
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 13: Because Apple have a unique encryption service, that not that

642
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 13: they can no longer break into if asked too. And

643
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 13: there's many references to the FBI wanting access to phones

644
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 13: of people with who passed away and they want their fingerprint,

645
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 13: and an Apple kind of in getting there and they

646
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 13: choose not to have a back door.

647
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 1: In June this year, Chahou traveled to New Zealand to

648
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: obtain the information needed for his forensic IT analysis and

649
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 1: was physically handed Hannah's phone and her middlemore HP laptop.

650
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,760
Speaker 1: He said police weren't able to get into the laptop

651
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 1: because they didn't know the password. He asked to try

652
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: and circumvent the password, but was denied. He created his

653
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 1: own clone of Hannah's iPhone and was also provided a

654
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: range of electronic devices belonging to polkinghorn Mansfield then questioned

655
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: Chaho about how Celebrate software works.

656
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 13: It then takes the abatim copy of all files, logs

657
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 13: and databases off the phone and creates essentially a Celebrate

658
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 13: database that can be analyzed. So if you can try

659
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 13: and imagine breaking into a filing cabinet and taking all

660
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 13: the files and the information that are in there, regardless

661
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 13: of how they're stored, and they're in a searchable way

662
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 13: that someone can actually go in and look for the

663
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 13: information that they're looking for.

664
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 3: So as far as information on the phone itself.

665
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 2: Should be able to secure a copy of that information.

666
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 13: Yes, So a phone is made up of lots and

667
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 13: lots of databases and log files, and those they're designed

668
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 13: by the manufacturer and by the software developers, and that

669
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 13: information is structured, and Celebrate takes that information, analyzes it

670
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 13: and puts it into a number of different ways and criterias.

671
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 13: That allows us to look at the information in human speak.

672
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:14,320
Speaker 2: And then what about information stored in the cloud, Because

673
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 2: the phone.

674
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 13: Stores cloud information on itself as well, sometimes you can have.

675
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 4: A copy of that.

676
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 3: If I could give an example.

677
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 13: One of the phones that was interrogated, the four to

678
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 13: seven Triple zero, which I believe was the iPhone twalk pro,

679
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,720
Speaker 13: only had three contacts on it. But when I done deeper,

680
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 13: I found over a thousand contacts that were in the

681
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,240
Speaker 13: cloud that weren't on the phone. And what that tells

682
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 13: me is the version of the operating system protected the

683
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:50,720
Speaker 13: iCloud from the Celebrate and in such, the Celebrate extraction

684
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 13: didn't have those nine hundred and ninety seven odd contacts

685
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 13: in its extraction.

686
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 2: Does that mean that some material and the cloud can't

687
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: be excessed via Celebright correct?

688
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: Chaho confirmed one of his tasks was to look for

689
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 1: communications shedding light on Hannah's well being and her communications

690
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 1: with Polkinghorn via mobile phone and email. He provided at

691
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: least a year's worth of text messages between the couple.

692
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: The trial then started to hear about emails that Shahoe analyzed.

693
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 1: He mentions an email which Hannah initially emailed to herself

694
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 1: before sending it to her brother Bruce, and it related

695
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: to the care of their mother and appears to be

696
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 1: around the time she was about to be moved from

697
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: the family farm near Havelock North to a care home.

698
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: The email urges Bruce to respect that the property is

699
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: her family home.

700
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 2: We gave one thousand percent support to you both and

701
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 2: Mum when the arrangement was being made to take over

702
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:59,320
Speaker 2: the property, and incidentally head two on that occasion broken

703
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 2: between you and tracing I Dash. We do not regret

704
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 2: that decision. I know you have worked on the property.

705
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 2: That is what life is about, working to build up

706
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 2: your future furp and I have worked extremely hard to

707
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: where I have got to in life too.

708
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:21,800
Speaker 3: You are not the only ones.

709
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 2: I also arge you to think about what you said

710
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 2: about me. That was brutal and hurtful and I have

711
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 2: not deserved it, particularly your replication that I am a

712
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 2: poor aunt to Rose and in brackets, and I did

713
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 2: say Jacob and the brackets.

714
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 3: You know, this whole episode with Mum.

715
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 2: Has been very difficult for me as well as sorry

716
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 2: as well, And yet I have had to hold the

717
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 2: line between you and Tracy. I don't think if you

718
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 2: get that, you seem to think it's only difficult for

719
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 2: you and Shelley.

720
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 1: The defense earlier looked at the tensions between the Hannah's

721
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 1: siblings over the care of her family home. Bruce, as

722
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 1: you'll remember earlier in the trial, testified for the Crown,

723
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 1: while Tracy, the youngest sister, testified for the defense. Another

724
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 1: email to Polkinghorn's son Ben and his wife Bridget, around

725
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 1: the time of the first COVID cases, had Hannah Wright

726
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 1: about being asked to run the Northern Region's supply chain

727
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: and had been working all day and emailing into the night.

728
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 1: It is unbelievable, what is happening?

729
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 10: She wrote.

730
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: There was another email from April twenty twenty during the

731
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 1: COVID lockdown, which Mansfield read out to the court.

732
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 2: But I worked fifteen slat six hours times four.

733
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 3: Over easter, and yet I am tired and not myself.

734
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 2: But I've had a horrible day starting with I'm not

735
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 2: going to name that person whom I have disappointed.

736
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 3: I'm never good enough despite my effits. Today is the

737
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 3: twenty fifth day in a.

738
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 2: Row, but I'm not adding any value. I want desperately

739
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 2: to tell someone and cry and ask for help, but

740
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 2: everyone seems to think I'm amazing and does not want

741
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 2: to know that I have foibles or failings. I've tried

742
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 2: to bring it up with Fillip, but he tells me

743
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 2: he hasn't got go time to go over negative tonight

744
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 2: and brack and that's his equals.

745
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 3: He has enough. I might stand on my own two feet,

746
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 3: but I don't know.

747
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 2: Today if I have two feet or what they look like.

748
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 2: So I've had three glasses of wine and a beautiful

749
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 2: dinner thanks to PJP, but I don't know what to

750
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 2: do with myself dot dot dot.

751
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 3: So I will go.

752
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 2: To bed and not sleep, very unusual for me, and

753
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 2: it builds up.

754
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 3: Who knows what might follow? Have to tell.

755
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 2: Someone, even if no one but God ever sees this.

756
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 1: In court, Polkinghorn was seen sobbing as the email was

757
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: read out. More emails saw Hannah talk about her mother

758
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: no longer recognizing her. In August twenty twenty while one

759
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,359
Speaker 1: around the twenty twenty election had Hannah fearing how far

760
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 1: our taxes are going to be ramped up if Jacinder

761
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 1: Aardern wins. Another email read by Mansfield from Hannah to

762
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 1: family says my life is insane and her role is

763
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 1: incredibly difficult and lonely. Alicia McClintock began her cross examination

764
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:39,720
Speaker 1: asking about differences between email signatures and disparities in font

765
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 1: and color. Shaho later clarified, under further questioning from Mansfield

766
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 1: that signatures can change when formatting is stripped after someone replies,

767
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 1: and that it's possible to have different email signatures when

768
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 1: sending from different devices. Was the last email Polkinghorn received

769
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:01,800
Speaker 1: from Hannah at ten forty seven pm on April fourth,

770
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. McClintock asked he agreed. McClintock asked if

771
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 1: he was asked to have a look at Polkinghorn's deleted searches.

772
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 1: I don't believe I was, said Shaho. He also didn't

773
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:23,359
Speaker 1: see communication between Polkinghorn and Madison Ashton in his searches.

774
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: Day twenty nine saw Auckland Crown Solicitor Alicia McClintock recall

775
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: police digital forensic analyst June Lee, who was called at

776
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 1: the end of the Crown case some weeks ago. Lee

777
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 1: was stood down part way through defense lawyer Ron Mansfield's

778
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:42,760
Speaker 1: cross examination.

779
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 10: To recap the trial.

780
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 1: Has heard Hannah's phone only looked up two contacts, Polkinghorn

781
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 1: and the daughter of their family friend at four am

782
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 1: the morning she died. Prosecutors say it was an automatic

783
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 1: security process. Says it was Hannah drafting a message to

784
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 1: Polkinghorn and the young woman. Lee has said that Hannah's

785
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 1: phone could not have been used. McClintock began her questioning

786
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: saying when Lee gave evidence some time ago, the issue

787
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 1: was whether entries in Hannah's phone's activity log with the

788
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 1: result of background activity in Hannah's phone's identity look up service,

789
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 1: an automatic security feature or someone drafting a text message.

790
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,240
Speaker 10: Lee has since met with Atikhan Shaho.

791
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 8: And did you show mister Shaho at the d if you.

792
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 7: The data that you were looking at and taken through

793
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 7: your explanation as to what you think is happening with

794
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 7: those log entries?

795
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 5: Yes?

796
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 7: And are there still is you understand it some areas

797
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 7: of disagreement between yourself and mister sharho as to what

798
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 7: these entries. Okay, So just to recap for the benefit

799
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 7: of everybody, you've told us that in your opinion, this

800
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 7: is a background activity rather than user activity, and that

801
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 7: in your opinion, nobody is using the phone at the

802
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 7: time of those entries.

803
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 8: Have I that's fear.

804
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 6: Yes.

805
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: When the phone becomes idle at ten forty seven pm

806
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: the night before the morning of April fifth, there's no

807
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:40,880
Speaker 1: trace of anything happening. Li said at ten forty seven pm,

808
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,760
Speaker 1: there are signs of the phone being locked. To access

809
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 1: it again, you'd need to unlock it, for example via password,

810
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 1: and someone would need to click into the messaging app.

811
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 10: He says.

812
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:57,839
Speaker 1: He reiterated several times that his view that Hannah did

813
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 1: not use her phone after that, and the Identity Lookup

814
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:07,839
Speaker 1: service in fact, is an automatic background process which only

815
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 1: runs when in use. It can't be used as evidence

816
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,800
Speaker 1: that Hannah was drafting a message the morning of her death.

817
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:20,240
Speaker 1: McClintock said police have found the identity Lookup service running

818
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:25,839
Speaker 1: on April eight, three days after Hannah Diedly confirmed that

819
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: indicates you don't have to be using the phone for

820
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 1: the identity Lookup service to run and if somebody else

821
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,399
Speaker 1: is using it, like police, there would be evidence of that.

822
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,800
Speaker 10: He said, with exhaustive.

823
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 1: References to other earlier data on Polkinghorn's phone, suggests Defense

824
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 1: it analyst Attikan Shaho was mistaken to suggest anomalies in

825
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: the data police used to show the phone went into

826
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:57,720
Speaker 1: airplane mode. Just as Graham Lang asked a question about

827
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 1: the series of ons and offs in the airplane mode data,

828
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 1: Lee says phones work off user habits, So if you

829
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: regularly turn airplane mode on and off, the phone would

830
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 1: regularly check that.

831
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:15,799
Speaker 14: So I'm actually speaking between the ten twenty four in

832
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 14: the morning. In general, there was no log activity or whatsoever.

833
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:22,240
Speaker 14: So no user interaction.

834
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 8: Yeah, none at all in that timeframe.

835
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 7: No, disagree with mister Shaho that this could be Pauline

836
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 7: Hanna going into the phone to draft messages even if

837
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 7: they weren't sent.

838
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 4: Yes.

839
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:40,439
Speaker 1: Defense lawyer Ron Mansfield then began his cross examination of Lee,

840
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 1: first asking about his background before digging into the process

841
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 1: of how Lee works and how he receives phones as

842
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:52,479
Speaker 1: a digital forensic analyst and the process from there.

843
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 2: I take from your background that you're not a registered

844
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 2: Apple developer.

845
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 3: No, and Apple doesn't work.

846
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 2: With Celebrate or Axiom by way of license or contract

847
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 2: or even informally.

848
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 9: Do they?

849
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 6: I don't believe. So.

850
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 2: It sounds like prior to joining the police as a

851
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 2: technician and then as an analyst, your background has been

852
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 2: with Samsung.

853
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 3: In relation to answering user inquiries.

854
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 9: Correct, yes, but I don't really understand your question here.

855
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 14: What what what relevancy does they have my background to

856
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:44,800
Speaker 14: the knowledge around the log entries?

857
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 2: Well, because there's a disagreement between you and mister in

858
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 2: relation to how the Apple operating system works.

859
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 14: It's not really Apple how Apple system works. It's more

860
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:01,400
Speaker 14: like the there's a database ext out of the Apple

861
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 14: phone would just exhibit that we actually tooking the database

862
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:06,879
Speaker 14: around it.

863
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:08,880
Speaker 9: You know where I'm coming from.

864
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 1: Mansfield and Lee went back and forth on how the

865
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 1: Apple server connects to a phone. Lee said he disagrees

866
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 1: with Shahou that the Apple server doesn't connect randomly, but

867
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 1: only at their request of a user. There weren't other

868
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 1: background events happening with Hannah's phone, but Lee said he

869
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 1: can't be sure the phone isn't going through all the

870
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 1: contacts at once when these background events are occurring. He

871
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 1: then took leave for the day, but what would turn

872
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 1: on day thirty. The defense's next witness was another case

873
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 1: of deja vus, Olav Nielsen, the Sydney psychiatrist earlier called

874
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: by the defense. He returned for cross examination by Crown

875
00:55:55,000 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 1: Solicitor Alicia McClintock. Nielsen reiterated an earlier point that a

876
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:04,839
Speaker 1: previous suicide attempt means there's an increased risk of up

877
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 1: to one hundred times greater of suicide in the future

878
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 1: according to research.

879
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 7: What records, if any, were you given of a hospital

880
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 7: admission following an attempt at suicide for Paul and Hannah?

881
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:19,840
Speaker 9: No, there was none. There's no admissions.

882
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 11: Just the reference the referral to the to the crisis

883
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 11: team was the only records that I had.

884
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:27,400
Speaker 8: Yes, that's that.

885
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 7: Suicidal thoughts though, isn't it not plans and not an attempt?

886
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 11: The crisis tam, Yeah, I guess it's an informed plan.

887
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 11: Isn't it to concresh into a lorry? It was that

888
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 11: that was in the twenty thirty December nineteen, Yes.

889
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:47,080
Speaker 7: And so my question is the only evidence that you

890
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:49,840
Speaker 7: were given about anything to do with an attempt?

891
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:51,960
Speaker 8: The statement of Tracy Hannah.

892
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:54,920
Speaker 6: Correct, right, and.

893
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 7: So it's obviously for the jury whether they accept Tracy

894
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:04,799
Speaker 7: Hannah's evidence or not. But there's no medical evidence that

895
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:09,240
Speaker 7: you were given underpinning an attempt at suicide for Pauline Hannah.

896
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:09,840
Speaker 6: Was there.

897
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:15,799
Speaker 11: Of medical evidence of an episode of deliberate self harm?

898
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 9: No, No, no medical records.

899
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 1: Neilson said that Hannah's behavior and the lead up to

900
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 1: her death is not necessarily the most important. These decisions

901
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:30,760
Speaker 1: are often very impulsive, he said, and follow weeks or

902
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 1: months of stress or depression. McClintock said. Neilson talked about

903
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: her unusual behavior over the weekend before her death, referencing

904
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 1: her going to the tip.

905
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 7: Are you suggesting that a trip to the tip is

906
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 7: indicative of.

907
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 8: Some sort of mental health deterioration.

908
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 11: Not not any of itself, but for example, people who

909
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 11: give away possessions because they've made a decision to kill themselves,

910
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 11: that would be a sign. For example, people clearing out,

911
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:10,439
Speaker 11: you know, personal items because that has been a thought

912
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 11: on their mind might be a sign.

913
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 9: Again, you know, I don't know that, but.

914
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 11: That's it's just one factor that may have been relevant,

915
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 11: I think is.

916
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 7: She's taking her all of her wildly goods to the

917
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:24,560
Speaker 7: tap might we might have an alarm, But in that instance,

918
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 7: what we know is she's taking some old curtains to

919
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 7: the tap.

920
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 1: There was also the taking of a meal to some

921
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 1: old friends, Nielsen said, which he understood to be out

922
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 1: of character and later confirmed that came from Polkinghorn's statement

923
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 1: to police, and he is reliant on what he said

924
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 1: about her suicide risk factors. On the various drugs Hannah

925
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 1: was on at the time of her death, Nielsen said,

926
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 1: we don't know about her tolerance. He earlier testified that

927
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 1: the combination of Zoppa clone and alcohol would have caused

928
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 1: a disinhibiting effect.

929
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 7: When you say there was a loss of them in

930
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 7: that particular night. For that, you again, you're having to

931
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 7: rely on the idea that she has indeed committed suicide

932
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 7: necessarily in order to say that, aren't you, because there's

933
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 7: no evidence of her being disinhibited in the lead.

934
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 8: Up to that art.

935
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 11: No, No, it's a predictable effect of you know, a

936
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 11: bottle of peano and no New Zealand pen four and

937
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 11: several tablets probably of zopper clone, not just one tablet,

938
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:31,919
Speaker 11: given the blood alcohol, the zopper clone content, and.

939
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 7: Where do you get the evidence from that she drank

940
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 7: the bottle of wine.

941
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:40,120
Speaker 11: No, No, there was a that was well, I'm assuming

942
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 11: that's what it was, because.

943
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 9: That was a Dr. Polkinhorn's son, So we're back to.

944
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 8: The we have to rely on him for that.

945
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 1: On Johannah's appearance and Neilson's comments that she might have

946
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 1: been hiding issues via her good presentation, you remember telling.

947
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:03,240
Speaker 7: Us that, yes, how many times did you meet her?

948
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 9: That's a I have never met her.

949
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 8: Obviously, he can't.

950
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 7: I mean it's possible people could mask things, right, but

951
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:22,120
Speaker 7: you can't possibly say that that's what's happening with her

952
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:29,600
Speaker 7: presenting herself well, can you? Because looking God gives some

953
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:32,520
Speaker 7: people confidence in themselves, doesn't it.

954
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:34,800
Speaker 6: Yes.

955
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 1: Nilsen also acknowledges Hannah had responded positively after talking about

956
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:45,160
Speaker 1: suicidal thoughts to a crisis team in twenty nineteen, and

957
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 1: that the opening of a new vaccination clinic in the

958
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 1: week after Hannah died would have been a source of

959
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 1: pride for her despite the stress of her job. McClintock

960
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 1: later asked about building offender's risk profiles for violent offending.

961
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 7: One of the key things that you would look at,

962
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 7: I assume, is whether there is evidence of prior violence, yes,

963
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 7: and in a male offender, and any evidence that was

964
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,400
Speaker 7: put in front of you of a non fatal strangulation

965
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 7: incident of a female that would be a red flag

966
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 7: for a violence profile for an offender.

967
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:30,960
Speaker 9: Look.

968
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 11: Yes, the circumstances of previous violence in addition to a

969
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 11: history of the previous violence would be would be relevant obviously.

970
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 7: And drug use would also be something that would have

971
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:50,240
Speaker 7: to be factored into an offender risk profile, wouldn't it.

972
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:57,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, Yes, of course that's probably the largest, the strongest

973
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:01,439
Speaker 9: risk factor, the previous.

974
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:05,040
Speaker 11: Behavior and substance utse you know, both because of the

975
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 11: antisocial nature of substance abuse and the disinhibiting effect of

976
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:12,280
Speaker 11: substances to recap.

977
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:16,680
Speaker 1: The couple's family, friends the Readans both said Hannah had

978
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:21,000
Speaker 1: described Pulkinghorn having previously placed his hands on her neck

979
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 1: as part of what they understood to be a strangulation threat.

980
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:30,560
Speaker 1: Nielsen reiterated presenting well doesn't mean you can't suffer from

981
01:02:30,680 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: depression or commit suicide, and Hannah not disclosing her thoughts

982
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 1: to colleagues or family doesn't mean she wasn't considering things.

983
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:44,080
Speaker 1: He also said the mix of drugs and alcohol could

984
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:46,440
Speaker 1: have taken away Hannah's fear of death.

985
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:50,920
Speaker 2: You've obviously had an opportunity to consider my lender of

986
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 2: friends questioning by way of cross examination. Does that move

987
01:02:55,720 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 2: you from the opinion you experienced chief regarding miss Hannah

988
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 2: presenting with a number of risk factors for suicide?

989
01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 9: That's right now.

990
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 11: I stand by that original opinion, which is based on.

991
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:16,320
Speaker 9: My experience and research.

992
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:20,840
Speaker 1: After the day's testimony, just as Graham Lang then addressed

993
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:24,479
Speaker 1: the jury saying that due to the trial extending into

994
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 1: a seventh week and with closing statements not due until

995
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:33,000
Speaker 1: the eighth week, now one juror's prior commitments means she's

996
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:35,960
Speaker 1: been stood down so as to not put pressure on

997
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:40,120
Speaker 1: the jury to deliver a verdict. The jury of eleven

998
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:44,120
Speaker 1: now eight women and three men, are due to start

999
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:55,960
Speaker 1: deliberations next week. You can listen to episodes of Accused

1000
01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:59,960
Speaker 1: the Polkinghorn Trial through the Front Page podcast feed or

1001
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:03,720
Speaker 1: find it on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.

1002
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:08,520
Speaker 1: This series is presented and produced by me Chelsea Daniels,

1003
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:13,280
Speaker 1: with producer Ethan Siles and sound engineer Patti Fox. Additional

1004
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 1: production support by Helen King additional reporting from the Heralds

1005
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:21,560
Speaker 1: Craig Capitan and George Block, and for more coverage of

1006
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:25,720
Speaker 1: the Polkinghorn trial, head to Enzidhrold dot co dot nz.