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Speaker 1: And Prime Minister Crystopher Luxen. Very good morning to you.

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Speaker 1: Good morning Mike. How are you today? Very well? Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Are we part of the Coalition of the Willing Well

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Speaker 1: we've actually I actually haven't had a Dreek chat with

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Speaker 1: Kirs Starmer, but.

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Speaker 2: We obviously are good dialogue with the UK and we're

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Speaker 2: monitoring the situation pretty closely and of course, as I've

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Speaker 2: said before, we're open to it, but that's obviously subject

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Speaker 2: to what is the shape of a final settlement. But

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Speaker 2: we're very open to it and we're participating in different

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Speaker 2: conversations that are going on.

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Speaker 1: There's a meeting in Paris tomorrow among military heads. Are

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Speaker 1: we represented or not?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we are. We actually have our New Zealand Defense

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Speaker 2: Force Defense at Tasha in London, who's going to be

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Speaker 2: attending that meeting in person. And then Mike, we have

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Speaker 2: our chiefs of Defense down here in Wellington attending virtually.

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Speaker 2: So that is actually, as you know, to discuss post

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Speaker 2: conflict Ukraine, and we're one of the topics obviously, and

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Speaker 2: you know we we include as there you know, we

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Speaker 2: further talk about the Coalition of the Welling which has

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Speaker 2: been led by the UK. We're open to it, but

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Speaker 2: as I said, conflicts still ongoing. We need to see

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Speaker 2: the shape of the settlement.

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Speaker 1: Ask you about it. A couple of weeks ago, we

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Speaker 1: were in close working a decision on boots on the

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Speaker 1: ground or not.

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Speaker 2: No, no, we need it's just all too premature and

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Speaker 2: too much speculation or you know, we'll go through these

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Speaker 2: meetings tomorrow and we'll see where it's at. We keep

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Speaker 2: monitoring it very closely, but you know, we really do

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Speaker 2: need to see the shape of a settlement. You know,

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Speaker 2: obviously our presence of Lenski's in Saudi Arabia today and

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Speaker 2: conversations with the US and Ukraine, which is important. You know,

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Speaker 2: they haven't happening, which is important because they've got to

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Speaker 2: work together to get that piece that we need to see.

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Speaker 1: Okay, not enough coverage was given to this Deloitte report,

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Speaker 1: seventy seven pages into the Health Board slash commissioner, and

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Speaker 1: it goes back to what I've been asking you a

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Speaker 1: number of times over the months, and that is do

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Speaker 1: you think the public service actively work against you? Well?

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Speaker 2: I don't think so, but it's just that I don't

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Speaker 2: think there's been a clear expectation on the public service

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Speaker 2: about what we want them to do. As I said

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Speaker 2: to you in recent weeks, you know, I expect them

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Speaker 2: to treat the public like a customer and the health system.

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Speaker 2: I expect them to be focused on patients first and

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Speaker 2: foremost come through that lens on every decision they make.

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Speaker 2: And as you saw on that report, what we had

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Speaker 2: was pretty woeful management of a complex healthcare system. And

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Speaker 2: what I'm frustrated with, and I've talked to you about

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Speaker 2: it before, is you know, we've put record amounts of

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Speaker 2: cash and we're actually doing a really good job of

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Speaker 2: actually growing the workforce and paying nurses more than they've

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Speaker 2: ever been paid, and yet we're not getting good outcomes.

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Speaker 2: And so that's why, you know, Samon Brown, I think

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Speaker 2: last week, you know, we started to talk about what

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Speaker 2: we call primary health care, which is how to get

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Speaker 2: faster access to a GPS you don't clog up eds.

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Speaker 2: But we also need the organization to be a high

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Speaker 2: performing organization.

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Speaker 1: It's really here's your problem. So you got rid of

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Speaker 1: the board, or really got rid of the board and

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Speaker 1: put in a commissioner. Now Brown's put in a board

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Speaker 1: and steadup a commissioner. It doesn't really matter whether it's

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Speaker 1: commissioner a board. If you've gotten competence and competences and competence,

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Speaker 1: but when the set this is a quote from the report,

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Speaker 1: the center made requests and the districts ignored them. Now

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Speaker 1: that's not not knowing what's going on. That's sabotage.

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Speaker 2: I think it's in competence. I think the reality was

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Speaker 2: that was an absolutely botched merger in the sense of

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Speaker 2: you had twenty dhps that understood their local communities, as

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Speaker 2: imperfect as they may have been. There was advice not

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Speaker 2: to whack them all together into one big super model

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Speaker 2: called Health New Zealand the middle of a freaking pandemic.

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Speaker 2: They went and did it anyway. They didn't actually merge

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Speaker 2: the entities properly. They didn't atually set up a proper

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Speaker 2: organization with who's accountable for what. They chucked two and

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Speaker 2: a half thousand more managers than over the top. So

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Speaker 2: the bottom line is I look at it as to

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Speaker 2: be honest, Mike, as I've got the money in, I'm

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Speaker 2: getting the workforce growing, I've got clarity on what I

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Speaker 2: expect the patients to see at the end of the

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Speaker 2: day and to feel and to experience. But the issue

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Speaker 2: is the delivery of it sits in the organization. It's

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Speaker 2: an organizational challenge. And yes, we put a commissioner in

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Speaker 2: for governance because we wanted to expose and get real

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Speaker 2: clarity about what the hell was going on. We need

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Speaker 2: to revert that back to a board that was entirely

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Speaker 2: appropriate that he's there for a year to do that job.

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Speaker 2: We need to obviously to appoint a new CEO of

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Speaker 2: Health New Zealand, new CEO of Director General of Ministry

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Speaker 2: of Health as well, but we need to get the

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Speaker 2: organizational structures right. You know, when you've got a large

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Speaker 2: executive team that doesn't meet regularly, that doesn't seem to

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Speaker 2: know who does what to who, that is just mush

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Speaker 2: at the center, let alone by the time it gets

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Speaker 2: out through the organization and the fourteen layers of management,

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Speaker 2: it's a It's a real organizational challenge. And the money's there,

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Speaker 2: the workforce is growing, the clarity about what we want

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Speaker 2: to see from that system is clear, and it's now

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Speaker 2: about execution of that system.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Nikola Willis is trying to, I'm led to believe,

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Speaker 1: negotiate her way around these rules that the Central Bank

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Speaker 1: put in place for the retail banks as to how

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Speaker 1: much money they need to keep aside for a rainy day.

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Speaker 1: This is all's thing. If she can do that, does

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Speaker 1: that still leave the Reserve Bank independent?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? It does. I mean I think she's you know,

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Speaker 2: she's quite entitled to and I'm encouraging, you know, of

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Speaker 2: her to do that, which is to say, look, banks

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Speaker 2: holding less capital if it actually altimately helps it grow

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Speaker 2: the economy, how does it do that? What? It should

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Speaker 2: lower interest rates and therefore that improves productivity and that

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Speaker 2: could add to growth if we get well and.

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Speaker 1: Grow about it. But I thought that was bank governor's job.

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Speaker 1: Well we can.

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Speaker 2: Nicholas got powers that she can actually get in some

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Speaker 2: direction over the reserve governor. Well, no, she's she's got

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Speaker 2: she's got some influence on that, and so she's taking

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Speaker 2: advice around what she can do around capital holdings. She

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Speaker 2: hasn't taken anything to Cabinet.

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Speaker 1: There isn't.

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Speaker 2: Frankly, at this point, Micah timing on it because as

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Speaker 2: you know, we've also got this FEC Work and Finance

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Speaker 2: Expenditure Committee going into banking competition, and I think when

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Speaker 2: we actually make moves, we want to make the right

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Speaker 2: ones and think it all through. So that is certainly

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Speaker 2: one of the things in the frame, which is you know,

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Speaker 2: and why wouldn't we do it? I mean, like with you,

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Speaker 2: but but.

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Speaker 1: You do have to have the Reserve Bank as an

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Speaker 1: independent operator. If they say, well, as Adrian All said,

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Speaker 1: we want this X number of billion dollars set aside,

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Speaker 1: and the Finance Minister goes, well, no, sorry, my number

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Speaker 1: is different. That makes you look like Muldoon, doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. I think you know, but

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Speaker 2: there are powers that Nicola and any Minister of Finance has,

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Speaker 2: and I think this is entirely appropriate. There was a

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Speaker 2: lot of debate at the time as whether it was

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Speaker 2: the right thing or not. And frankly, I'm interested in

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Speaker 2: growth and if this means there's no question interestrates, I

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Speaker 2: think going on, we're all glad All's gone.

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Speaker 1: He was hopeless, But the point is he was independent

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Speaker 1: on that. The banks from in front of the Select

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Speaker 1: Committee again yesterday, is anything actually happening with that? They

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Speaker 1: said the same thing yesterday as they said the other day.

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Speaker 1: They're defending the corner and good luck to them, but

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Speaker 1: what are you doing about it?

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a number of things as we've talked about before.

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Speaker 2: I mean we've obviously, you know, taking advice on the

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Speaker 2: capital holdings. We've obviously taken advice also on getting capital

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Speaker 2: into Kiwi Bank so they can get more lending going

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Speaker 2: out to places. We've got further questioning going on bank

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Speaker 2: cheers and CEOs around you know, why they're defunding certain

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Speaker 2: sectors in our economy, which is not acceptable.

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Speaker 1: But if you listen to what Antonia Watson said yesterday,

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Speaker 1: she gave an explanation for that. I don't agree with it.

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Speaker 1: I think she's wrong, but you know she's going to

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Speaker 1: say that till she's blue in the face. Question is

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Speaker 1: what do you can all come forward?

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Speaker 2: They can all come forward, We'll digest what they all

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Speaker 2: say and we'll put together a package. But when we

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Speaker 2: make the interventions, we want to make sure that it's

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Speaker 2: quite comprehensive and thought through and there's a package of

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Speaker 2: interventions that actually makes sure.

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Speaker 1: And when are those passions of interventions coming well?

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Speaker 2: As I said capital, she's taking advice on the ki

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Speaker 2: Bank piece, advice on the capital piece. The FEC thing

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Speaker 2: is still running its way through, particularly around rural banking

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Speaker 2: and around defunding and general questions around banking competition. That'll

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Speaker 2: come together in the next few months.

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Speaker 1: Okay, White Tankage tribunal, Richard Preble quit when you're going

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Speaker 1: to do something about that, Not Richard Prebble, but the tribunal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean what we've said for a long time,

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Speaker 2: and we've got work underway.

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Speaker 1: Students, there's a lot of work away. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of pieces, the first lot of pieces moving a lot

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Speaker 1: of time. Gee, oh my god, estion time.

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Speaker 2: I would say to you, my friend, that there has

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Speaker 2: been a hell of a lot of action on health.

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Speaker 2: Is been a hell of a lot of action on

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Speaker 2: an infrastructure. Something is a hell of a lot of

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Speaker 2: action going on into you. That's just the last three weeks.

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Speaker 1: Ok. Sorry in this case, when you try to do

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Speaker 1: something about the White Tangae tribunal. Y, so we're just

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Speaker 1: wigging them up. Well, no, we want to. Basically, I

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Speaker 1: just made a which side of the debate you're on.

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Speaker 2: Everyone says in a post treaty settlement world, you should

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Speaker 2: be thinking about what's their role going forward. That's a

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Speaker 2: legitimate question. It's a pretty big question because it's been

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Speaker 2: that you know, we've had it around since nineteen seventy five.

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Speaker 2: And so that's the work that Tama Potaker and others

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Speaker 2: are kicking off, and so that needs to be properly

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Speaker 2: thought through. We'll bring that to cabinet, we'll have a conversation,

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Speaker 2: we'll come out again. He's got work underway, already started

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Speaker 2: that work, and we'll have more to say about that.

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Speaker 1: Am I impatient or something? I just like, I just

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Speaker 1: I just think it's just no disrespect.

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Speaker 2: But we're working harder than any other government. We're putting

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Speaker 2: through more legislation to get things changed and sorted than

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Speaker 2: we've ever done. We inherit a hell of a mess,

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Speaker 2: and you know, we're we're working freaking hard every single

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Speaker 2: day to make sure that we're cleaning up the mess,

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Speaker 2: but more importantly set in the country up for great success.

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Speaker 2: I think, you know, to bring one hundred investors here

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Speaker 2: that have got six trillion dollars for a government that's

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Speaker 2: you know, under successive government's never really been that you

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Speaker 2: encouraging of foreign capital would come.

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Speaker 1: To the country. That's good, and that's good, it's all good.

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Speaker 2: Just get freeway to Athlands.

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Speaker 1: You know, are you going to get do you go

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Speaker 1: to India with you? Will you sign something in India.

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Speaker 1: Will something tangible come out of India? Yeah, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: there will be, but we sure there will be. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you don't go too knowing this stuff. Something were going

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Speaker 1: to come out of us, you.

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Speaker 2: Will have to wait till we get to India. But

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Speaker 2: what I'm saying is you've got you can't give up

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Speaker 2: on India.

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Speaker 1: Like the last lot of you know, we've got.

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Speaker 2: It's a big country, biggest in the world's third biggest economy,

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Speaker 2: massive geopolitical player now in a multipoler world, massive desper

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Speaker 2: here at home, so security, trade, you know, peopled links.

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Speaker 2: That's important. We've had to build back the relationships, frankly, Mike,

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Speaker 2: in the last fourteen months they were non existent, and

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Speaker 2: I think we've had really good engagements with trade and

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Speaker 2: foreign affairs and defense and prime ministers and presidents from India.

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Speaker 2: And you know, the fact that our promise to Moti

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Speaker 2: has invited us to India isn't something that's done lightly.

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Speaker 2: I'm the first promise to go in a long long time,

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Speaker 2: and it's important. This is the next stage of just

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Speaker 2: keeping them momentum up so we deepen up the relationship

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Speaker 2: and all the.

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Speaker 1: Time travel well see you in a couple. You're not

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Speaker 1: here next week. I take it you want to do

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Speaker 1: one from India. I'm in.

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Speaker 2: If the time zones work, I'll do it.

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Speaker 1: Of course they always work. I'm up twenty four to seven.

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Speaker 1: If you're up twenty percent, well let's do it next Tuesday.

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Speaker 1: Come on, time you worry? What do you do over there?

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Speaker 1: I'm twenty four to seven.

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Speaker 2: I'll say, yeah, don't you worry?

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Speaker 1: All right, good, We'll look forward to a next Tuesday.

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Speaker 1: Christopher Luxe from India. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast,

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Speaker 1: listen live to news Talks at B from six am weekdays,

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Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio