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Speaker 1: Now let's keep talking about the climate, because I suppose

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Speaker 1: it is related. The Government is defending its climate plans

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Speaker 1: in court today. Lawyers for Climate Action and the Environmental

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Speaker 1: Law Initiative have taken the government to the High Court

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Speaker 1: in Wellington, accusing it of failing to meet its lawful

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Speaker 1: obligations when it approved the emissions reduction plan. Jessica Paleray

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Speaker 1: is the executive director of Lawyers for Climate Action and

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Speaker 1: is with us. Jessica, Hello, hy here the what are

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Speaker 1: you saying that they've done which is illegal? What is

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Speaker 1: it that they've done which is unlawful?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a few aspects to it. The most basic

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Speaker 2: point is that the government continues to assert that it's

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Speaker 2: committed to meeting our climate targets and that we're on track.

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Speaker 2: But in this case, what we're asking is is that true?

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Speaker 2: Does the government's plan really stack up? Or is it

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Speaker 2: fudging the numbers and taking New Zealand on a high

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Speaker 2: risk and expensive path forward when we're presenting evidence that

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Speaker 2: shows that our chance of meeting the targets is a

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Speaker 2: little better than a coin toss, and that for some

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Speaker 2: of our future targets we're actually off track. So we're

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Speaker 2: arguing that the law requires more, it requires as a

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Speaker 2: less risky approach when it comes to our climate response,

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Speaker 2: and that the government should go back and do a

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Speaker 2: better job.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So if you win this court case, what is

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Speaker 1: the practical outcome of it. Will they have to redo

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Speaker 1: the numbers?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they may need to redo parts of the plan.

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Speaker 2: We're also seeking decorations what should the law be, because

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Speaker 2: at some points it's actually unclear and we disagree with

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Speaker 2: the government on what the law is. These are things

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Speaker 2: that have never been tested before. It's a really novel

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Speaker 2: first of its client case in New Zealand. So we're

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Speaker 2: clarifying the law and we're going to lay down what

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Speaker 2: has to be done in the future to make sure

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Speaker 2: that New Zealand is on track and ultimately require the

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Speaker 2: government to go back and do a better job on

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Speaker 2: its plan.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So let's say that you win this court case

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Speaker 1: and they are forced to go and do the numbers

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Speaker 1: all over again, and that there is a short fall

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Speaker 1: and it's proved what happens, then.

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Speaker 2: Well, we'll then scrutinize whether the new plan passes muster

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Speaker 2: and if it does, then that's great. These kinds of

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Speaker 2: challenges have actually happened, and all around the world. So

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Speaker 2: in the UK the government was challenged two times on

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Speaker 2: its plan and had to go back two times and

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Speaker 2: do a better job. They just released another plan earlier

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Speaker 2: this year, and that plan actually appears to pass muster.

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Speaker 2: But this kind of challenge, this kind of accountability is

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Speaker 2: critical because we've got climate targets that we've got legal

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Speaker 2: obligations to meet and that actually the government can't just

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Speaker 2: say that it's going to meet them. It has to

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Speaker 2: really have robust analysis and evidence behind them, and that's

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Speaker 2: what this case is.

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Speaker 1: So essentially, if it has proved that they have not

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Speaker 1: actually been as robust in the numbers as they say

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Speaker 1: they are, they may be forced to actually enforce more

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Speaker 1: cuts elsewhere, like they may be forced to kind of

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Speaker 1: beef up their climate reaction. Would that be fair.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we think that's actually a really good thing if

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Speaker 2: that is what happens, and what happens then, I mean, look,

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Speaker 2: the government can always change the law, so they could

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Speaker 2: weaken it if they want to, but that's really not

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Speaker 2: in New Zealand's interests here. I mean, we've got obligations,

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Speaker 2: just like almost every other country in the world to

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Speaker 2: try to do our best to cut emissions. I mean, there's

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Speaker 2: some irony that we're in court this week making these

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Speaker 2: arguments at a time in New Zealanders are paying huge

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Speaker 2: prices at the petrol pump. And this is relevant because

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Speaker 2: part of our case is actually challenging the way that

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Speaker 2: the government has just gutted climate policy after climate policy

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Speaker 2: policies that would have made it cheaper to buy evs,

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Speaker 2: that would have reduced our reliance on imported oil and gas.

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Speaker 2: These kinds of decisions actually impact New Zealanders and we're seeing,

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Speaker 2: you know, whether it's the extreme devastating weather events earlier

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Speaker 2: this year, whether it's the super high price of petrol

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Speaker 2: and the fact that we don't have good transport policies

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Speaker 2: that help us electrofy our transport fleet. We're seeing the

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Speaker 2: effects of those and what they mean for New Zealanders

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Speaker 2: here and now, and really, at its heart, that's what

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Speaker 2: this case is about. Good stuff.

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Speaker 1: Jessica, lovely to talk to you. Thank you so much,

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Speaker 1: Jessica Paleray, who's lawyers for Climate Actions Executive Directors. For

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