1 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: Kiyota. 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. 4 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 3: New Zealand's energy sector is broken. That's according to an 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,639 Speaker 3: open letter calling for the government to do more to 6 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 3: keep our power prices down. Soaring power costs is always 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 3: a concern, but we now live in a country where 8 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 3: for some it's a privilege. 9 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 4: To have power. 10 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 3: We've heard too many stories about businesses closing due to 11 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 3: rising costs of just keeping the lights on and everyday 12 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 3: kiwis are struggling as well. Tens of thousands of households 13 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 3: are cut off from basic essential services just because they can't. 14 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 2: Afford to pay their bills. 15 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 3: So what can we actually do to keep prices down 16 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 3: over winter? Can we ever get them to stay down permanently? 17 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 3: Today on the front page, as part of The Herald's 18 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 3: Power to the People campaign, we speak to the manager 19 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 3: of Consumer and Z's Power Switch, Paul fuge. So Consumer 20 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 3: and Z was part of this open letter calling for 21 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 3: reforms in the energy sector. 22 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 2: Why is the sector broken? 23 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 5: That's a really big question bottom line, as we haven't 24 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,960 Speaker 5: seen enough investment in generation. We have seen some, but 25 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 5: not enough and really because there's some structural issues in 26 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 5: the market that have not been addressed. The current market 27 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 5: structure basically centivizes just in time investment and being a 28 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 5: little bit late rather a little bit early. That's because 29 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 5: scarcity is rewarded in terms of high prices and seat 30 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 5: of high profits for gent tailors. And one of the 31 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 5: things we've observed in the market is that the price 32 00:01:57,600 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 5: of electricity has been decoupled from the cost of actually 33 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 5: reducing it, So the cost of eltricity, you know, the 34 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 5: foward prices of electricity are currently well above the long 35 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 5: run cost of building new power stations and happened since 36 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 5: twenty nineteen. And that's a good sign that the market 37 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 5: isn't delivering those sort of outcomes that you'd expect from 38 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:16,239 Speaker 5: a competitive market. 39 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 3: Are Gen Taylor's meant to give a shit about how 40 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 3: much we pay? Like, legally do they have to? Can 41 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 3: they hold on to their profits and not build new 42 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 3: generators because they're getting away with us spending loads with. 43 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 5: No requirement on them. It's a free market that they're 44 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 5: no requirement to build new generation Gen Taylor's, well, you know, 45 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 5: and according to this tent's put in front of them 46 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 5: so they've got a judiciary requirement to deliver maximize shareholder return, right, 47 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 5: and that's what they're required to do, and so they 48 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 5: will make those decisions and make those investments according to 49 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 5: those rules. So what we would say is, if you 50 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 5: don't like the outcomes, don't blame the players, change the 51 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 5: rules of the game. If this was a game of 52 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 5: rugby and you didn't like how the game was being played, 53 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 5: or change the rules, you wouldn't blame individual players for 54 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 5: the way they're playing because they're just trying to play 55 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 5: to the rules as they are required to do. So 56 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 5: I think it's not helpful to just simply beat up 57 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 5: retailers or gentailers is as kind of villains. They are 58 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 5: just doing what they are required to do and according 59 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 5: to what the incent is put in front of them. 60 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 5: So we would say change those incentives. 61 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 2: Right, So what should we change those incentives too? 62 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 5: So we think there's to be some changes to the market. So, firstly, 63 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 5: we think markets are good for consumers. A thriving competitive 64 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 5: market will provide consumers with choice, innovation, and help keep 65 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 5: a lot on prices. So those are outcomes we're not 66 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 5: seeing from this market. So obviously the market isn't delivering 67 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 5: according to what it was intended, so we would say 68 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 5: change the change the rules of that market. So one 69 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 5: of the things we would say is you need to 70 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 5: levelize the playing field. What we observe is some of 71 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 5: the independent generators that this is the pure retailers and 72 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 5: who are quite innovative, have higher customer service levels and 73 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 5: tend to have lower prices, have really struggled to get 74 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 5: a foothold in this market. And we've excess in the 75 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 5: market condensed somewhat more recently. And in fact, if you 76 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 5: look at the market concentration, the top four generators and 77 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 5: their subsidiaries over an eighty six percent of the market share, 78 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 5: and that's the same as it was ten years ago, 79 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 5: which is quite remarkable, and that's not again, not a 80 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 5: great sign that this is a market that's working well 81 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 5: for consumers. To mean, these new innovative retailers have really 82 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 5: struggled to gain a foothold. Even retailers that have been 83 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 5: really successful overseas like Octopus Energy, have really struggled to 84 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 5: come into the New Zealand market. And primary it's because 85 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 5: they're struggling to compete with the gent tailors because they 86 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 5: can't procure electricity or what they say is on equal 87 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 5: terms as the people they're competing again, so that's quite 88 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 5: a major structural flaw in the market. So that's something 89 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 5: that the government should be looking at with urgency. 90 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 3: How bad are prices at the moment and how have 91 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 3: they gotten real bad over the last year. 92 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, so we've seen a little bit about ten to 93 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 5: eleven percent increase from the same time last year on 94 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 5: average across the country. That varies significantly. You know, the 95 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 5: price of eltricity is a funny thing. There's no price 96 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 5: eltricity in New Zealand. There's literally thousands and thousands of prices. 97 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 5: So but on average across the country we've seen an 98 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,239 Speaker 5: eleven percent increase from last last year. So that's not great. 99 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 5: You know. As a result Alida survey, thirty six percent 100 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 5: of consumers have lost faith in the outlacity market or 101 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 5: that it's delivering delivering positive outcomes for them. That's not 102 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 5: a great a great sign when you know close to 103 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 5: forty percent of people just don't think it's working. 104 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: To know this from me, we can no longer maintain 105 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: regional robustness unless we have affordable energy, not just for 106 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: mums and dads, but for employers and employees, I've championed 107 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: this issue. I've endeavored to get out in front of 108 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: this issue because it's haunted key. We sport too long 109 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 1: and we need to put the underlying security, the underlying 110 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 1: well being of all New Zealanders ahead of the short 111 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: term gent Taylor corporate riddle profits. 112 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 3: What can be done to make sure that those smaller 113 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 3: players can get into the game? And can you explain 114 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 3: it to me as if I am, I don't know, 115 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 3: like a five year old child or something. So Gen 116 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 3: Taylor's are the ones producing and selling, whereas you've got 117 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 3: other companies who are what trying to get a good 118 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 3: wholesale price and then sell it onto us. 119 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 5: That's correct. So retailers basically procure eltricity on the ectricity market, 120 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 5: and they're sort of basically heating themselves. So they're they're 121 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 5: basically buying on the wholesale market like other products, and 122 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 5: intelling on the retail market. So they have to procure 123 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 5: enough atris in the wholesale market to cover their cover 124 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 5: they customers needs both now and into the future. The 125 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 5: problem in New Zealanders, they're buying an electricity from the 126 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 5: very people they're competing against, okay, and you can imagine 127 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 5: that the disadvantages that they're in the resks that puts 128 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 5: you under and also the skull diggory that could go on, 129 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 5: because the temptation for a gent tailor will be to 130 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 5: sell to its own retail arm at more favorable rates 131 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 5: or in more favorable conditions than these independents who are 132 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 5: trying to compete with them. So we make that a 133 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 5: legal flaw. Well, what would say there is just have 134 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 5: greater separation between the retail and generation functions so that 135 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 5: the independence can compete on the same terms as these larger, 136 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 5: larger retailers. And that's that's the fundamental flaw in thew 137 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 5: in this market. 138 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 2: Right. So if I was a gent tailor and I 139 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: was creating my energy and then selling it to people, 140 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: I can sell it to my mate for two dollars, 141 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 2: but all. 142 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 3: Of these guys over here has to have to pay 143 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 3: three dollars. Basically they're working off a mates rates system. 144 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 5: That's the suspicion, and that's what independent retailers say, and 145 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 5: that's you know, there's I'd say, there's some evidence for that. 146 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 5: And so what you what you can do is is 147 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 5: your your retail arm then operate at a loss or 148 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 5: to break even point, and but you more than make 149 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 5: up for it on your generation arm. And that's not 150 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 5: a luxury. That's that's available to independents who just we're 151 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 5: just living and dying basically on the retail part of it. 152 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 5: And so obviously they can't compete. And it's it's more 153 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 5: complex because these innovative retailers are sort of looking for 154 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 5: different types of hedges that they're they're offering more time 155 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 5: of use products, So it's not just the rates, it's 156 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 5: also the time of the day that they're trying to buy. 157 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 5: Buy by elbxiosity as well. 158 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 3: How about a world where we just can we create 159 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 3: more energy? 160 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 5: Well, well that's what's neat fundamentally, what's what's driving you know, 161 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 5: the high energy prices is scarcity. So there's a lack 162 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 5: of energy and also there's there's the risks to it 163 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 5: is that there's there's a fear that there will be 164 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 5: a lack of energy in the future. So New Zealand's 165 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 5: ultracity system is as fantastic thing, highly renewable though, so 166 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 5: we we really are at the vagaries of weather and 167 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 5: so when it doesn't rain, don't get enough snow, the 168 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 5: price of octricity can can get higher because of not 169 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 5: energy in the system, and so we need to have 170 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 5: almost like an over capacity to accommodate those dry years. 171 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 5: And the current sort of system doesn't really allow for 172 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 5: an over supply of electricity because powerstations are expensive to 173 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 5: run and you don't want to have a power station 174 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 5: if you're missed in one sitting sitting there there idle. 175 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 5: So that's a real flaw in the system, is that, 176 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 5: you know, this is just the physical nature of New 177 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 5: Zealand system doesn't lend itself easily for the current market structure. 178 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,559 Speaker 5: And as a result, we've sort of lurched from energy 179 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 5: crisis to energy crisis. I mean, we've had like, you know, 180 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 5: three energy crisis since twenty twenty. So it's sort of 181 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,319 Speaker 5: not a great way to run an economy because because 182 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 5: truly is so essential to not just households, the health 183 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 5: and well being of households, but also for the functioning 184 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 5: of the New Zealand economy, right, and that's what this 185 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 5: is the problem now is prices become become elevated for 186 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 5: so long that's actually affecting the economy because there's businesses 187 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 5: now that are sort of curtailing production or shutting down completely. 188 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 5: And that's what's really got the intention of I think of 189 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 5: this government is it's sort of becoming a risk to 190 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 5: the New Zealand economy. 191 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 2: Now, why hasn't anything been done about this? Is it 192 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 2: just too hard? 193 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 5: Yeah? I think it's just been that they've kicked for touch. 194 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 5: You know, successive governments you know, have tinkered around the 195 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 5: edges with this, but no one's been prepared to make 196 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 5: the consequential reforms or changes that are needed to sort 197 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 5: of arrest this. So, you know, we've given it a 198 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 5: good go. It's been twenty five years since we've put 199 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 5: the retail market in and we've had several crisis in 200 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:37,599 Speaker 5: that time. The writing's been on the wall for a 201 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 5: while now that things have gone up a a ry, 202 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 5: Like I said, since twenty nineteen, the prices have been 203 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 5: above the cost of production. So, you know, as the 204 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 5: open that has sort of said the type of tinkering 205 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 5: is over when consequential reform and change in this market 206 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 5: to sort of get it working as it was intended 207 00:10:54,679 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 5: to be working. 208 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 2: So what can the government do tomorrow to help us 209 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 2: all out it was. 210 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 5: A few things, like some simple things that would really 211 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,079 Speaker 5: help consumers. I mean, we've talked about the level of 212 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 5: playing field, but some of the basic things that we 213 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 5: haven't got right in New Zealand is something we've been 214 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 5: saying for decades basically is just for a start, make 215 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,719 Speaker 5: power bills so people can understand them. It sounds but 216 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 5: try to say it, but you know, one five people 217 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 5: don't even bother opening their power bill. People are just 218 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 5: bamboozled by their power balls. People might be surprised to 219 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 5: know that US is quite unique and that our powerbles 220 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 5: a unstandardized at all. What's on a powerbill, what information 221 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 5: is shown, and how it's shown, it varies between retailers. 222 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 5: Now it's a real flaw because people just can't understand 223 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 5: their own power bill and own power usage and even 224 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 5: knowing if that's normal and that what that does is 225 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 5: create vision and epathy and mistrust and people have become 226 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 5: disengaged from this market. And when you've got a market 227 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 5: where people disengage from it, it's never going to function properly. 228 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 5: So it's such a simple, easy life cost, non controversial 229 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 5: thing to do right is just make poweraballs easy to 230 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 5: understand eltricity is sort of analogous to petrol. So when 231 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 5: you think about how they show petrol prices, you can 232 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 5: drive down the road in your car and through through 233 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 5: a random town, look at the wind screen of your 234 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 5: car and look at the petrols the silent petrol station, 235 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 5: and you know that's a good or bad price. But 236 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 5: if you think in the petrol, it's complex, it's dangerous, difficult, supply, complex, 237 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 5: supply chains, et cetera. So similar to electricity. So how 238 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,439 Speaker 5: come they can show the price of petrol in a 239 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 5: way that everyone can understand it in an instant ultricity 240 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 5: prices people are just completely bamboozled by it. And also 241 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 5: access to data, so we invested in using a big 242 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,079 Speaker 5: success story in ultricity smart meters over a decade. Now 243 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 5: you know we're over ninety percent penetration and smart meter 244 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 5: roll out and these offer huge potential for consumers, but 245 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 5: we've locked that data away and so we run power 246 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 5: switch for example, So we struggle to help consumers as 247 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 5: much as as we could if we were able to 248 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 5: access that data, and other people as well access that data. 249 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 5: So it's a real own goal. The smart mat of 250 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 5: thing is that we've invested in this this amazing technology, 251 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 5: but we haven't unlocked the potential benefits to consumers from 252 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 5: that because we just haven't enabled access to that data 253 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 5: and that's been an ongoing thing for more than a decade, 254 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 5: and that's that's a real problem, but also it's a 255 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 5: real frustration and something that would be that would that 256 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 5: would really help consumers that it sort of hasn't been 257 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 5: enabled for such a long time. 258 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 2: And I suppose if making bills easier to read, because 259 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 2: I put my hand up, I'm one of those people 260 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 2: who go, is, oh, sixty. 261 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 3: Dollars last month, the ninety dollars this month? 262 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 2: Okay, But I suppose if you understood how and why 263 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 2: it works, you have better options when it comes to 264 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 2: perhaps switching companies as well. Should people be doing that more? 265 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 3: And should we are? 266 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 2: We not doing it enough? 267 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 5: Well exactly, And that's that was what would drive change 268 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 5: as well, if I consumers basically started changing on mass, 269 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 5: and that's what we're trying to get happening with our 270 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 5: Powersweap service. So we've had some success in that. We've 271 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 5: seen massive upswing and site usage over this year. So 272 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 5: in June we saw the largest number of Initiato switches 273 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 5: ever on the site and it was more than double 274 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 5: the previous highest months, which is astonishing. We've put an 275 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 5: investment in an AI bill reader now, as I talked 276 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 5: that before that people find bills confusing, So we've built 277 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 5: this tool that can read any power bill in New Zealand, 278 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 5: all the different variations, and take that information and feed 279 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 5: it into our calculator and give people really fast, faster, 280 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 5: more accurate comparisons that are more compelling. So people are 281 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 5: up with their bill are twice as likely to change 282 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 5: providers that those don't. This is the real game changer 283 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 5: because the issue we had is, like I said, getting 284 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 5: the data into the model, and it's been difficult because 285 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 5: a we don't have access to the smartmet of data, 286 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 5: but b because people can't read their powerble able to 287 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 5: enter their own data. We can do that for them 288 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 5: now with the AI bill reader. So this is the 289 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 5: first the first thing we're doing, and then we're going 290 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 5: to build some additional tools AI tools basically to help 291 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 5: people with their power build more. One of the things 292 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 5: you said is like is my powerball normal? So just 293 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 5: tell people through the AI bill reader, you know, is 294 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 5: what they're paying sort of normal for their household circumstances. 295 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 5: Is it more than their neighbors? How much could they 296 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 5: save if they change that sort of thing? What if 297 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 5: they change their behavior, what if they change their appliances. 298 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 5: So this is the first step and what could be 299 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 5: quite a revolution in retail. So we're really excited about 300 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 5: it and what we're finding. People on the site are 301 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 5: really excited as well because it's been such a high 302 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 5: uptake of that tool. But in general, people can save 303 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 5: between four and five hundred by changing provider. Look who 304 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 5: aren't aware of that? Just how much money they can 305 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 5: save by changing plan or provider a year, That's right, 306 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 5: So that's a significant part of your bill. That's about 307 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 5: the level at which people will change providers. So we 308 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 5: have seen people respond to that. We'd like to see more. 309 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 3: Our companies are making huge profits. 310 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 5: They can reduce their prices. 311 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 4: Well, so again I ask you, what will you do 312 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 4: to come hard on these big companies. Well, we'd have 313 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 4: an electricity market review happening, which samm Brown is kicking off, 314 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 4: and we'll look into that and we'll monitor that. But 315 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 4: I just say to you also need those companies to 316 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 4: be profitable because they have to go make big investments 317 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 4: and actually new renewable energy facilities and production facilities in 318 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 4: order to be able to make sure that we double 319 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 4: the amount of renewables we're going to get in the 320 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 4: next few years, as well as we have to work 321 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 4: really hard to find a new supply of gas and 322 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 4: make sure that we've got gas in the market too. 323 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 3: A review into the energy sector was announced in November 324 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 3: last year. 325 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 2: What are we are at an end of July? 326 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 5: Now? 327 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 3: What do you hope that reveals? 328 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 2: And are just are we moving quickly enough? 329 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 5: Here? Know we're not, And hence the open letters that 330 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 5: we've we've been tinkering for too long. Some of the 331 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 5: stuff we've seen coming out is they're not bad things 332 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 5: in themselves, but I liken it too. You know, some 333 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 5: of these the initiatives that are coming out from the 334 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 5: ultru See Authority, for example, sort of they're not consequential 335 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 5: enough for the for the for the crisis we find ourselves, 336 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 5: and so I likened it to saying they're consulting on 337 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 5: you know, the color of the kitchen cabinets when the 338 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 5: house is on fire. It's just's what it feels like. 339 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 5: So it's nice that they're they're asking the kitchen cabin 340 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 5: it should be it's not a bad thing, but what 341 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 5: we would say is the house is on fire, you 342 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 5: should probably be looking at their first. And so some 343 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 5: of these initiatives around increasing soule of iyeback making retailers 344 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 5: of the time and use crisis. These are good things. 345 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 5: There's no doubt that that we wouldn't say they're bad, 346 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:53,719 Speaker 5: but they're not the things that they should be focusing on. 347 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 5: Because we've got people who are going cold, they're turning 348 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 5: off the water cylinders, you know, you know, living seeing 349 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 5: people say then your homes because it's too expensive. You 350 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 5: know that that's that's that's the real crisis. Rather than 351 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 5: sort of rewarding people who are fortunate enough to bet, 352 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 5: you know, for flip solar systems among those people, you know, 353 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:14,880 Speaker 5: helping them shouldn't be a priority. 354 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Paul, No problem. 355 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 3: That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You 356 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 3: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 357 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 3: at enzherld dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is 358 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 3: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 359 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 3: our editor. 360 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 361 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 3: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 362 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 3: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 363 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 3: behind the headlines.