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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of theis now the Leyton

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Speaker 1: Smith Podcast powered by news talks it B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to podcasts two eighty five for May twenty one,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. And let's start with a warning. This

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Speaker 2: is a lengthy podcast, but it could have been longer.

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Speaker 2: Exercising discipline is sometimes difficult. It's a double interview session

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Speaker 2: starting with an update on New Zealand power supply by

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Speaker 2: power systems engineer Brian Leyland, who has been on the

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Speaker 2: podcast on well more than one occasion. Eighteen months ago,

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Speaker 2: he wrote in the New Zealand Herald, virtually every aspect

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Speaker 2: of our power system is a cause for concern. Still is,

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Speaker 2: and as before, considering the recent discovery that Chinese solar

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Speaker 2: farms have built in kill switches accessible to theies who

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Speaker 2: could switch off all the farms that they have supplied.

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Speaker 2: That's about fifty percent worldwide. Now, to suggest that we

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Speaker 2: are confronted with a serious issue is hardly debatable. What

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Speaker 2: is debatable is whether it's being handled competently and Brian

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Speaker 2: will take it from there. Then we have the suggestion

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Speaker 2: that the New Zealand public is growing increasingly skeptical about

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Speaker 2: the capacity for democratic institutions to put our best interests

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Speaker 2: at heart. Conventions and processes are in place to ensure

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Speaker 2: that these institutions are transparent and accountable. Public good policy

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Speaker 2: requires that the information underpinning decision making is of the

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Speaker 2: best possible standard. But what if those processes are bypassed.

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Speaker 2: New Zealand government agency for Economic Growth, the Ministry for Business,

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Speaker 2: Innovation and Employment otherwise known as MB is so entranced

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Speaker 2: by the promise of biotechnology that has, to all appearances

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Speaker 2: short circuited the democratic process and good regulatory practice. This

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Speaker 2: has become a case study that may not only reflect

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Speaker 2: New Zealand's woes, but mirror the global crises in policy

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Speaker 2: and science across the Western world. And of course this discussion,

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Speaker 2: and of course this discussion is related to the gene

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Speaker 2: Technology Bill, which is a subject to some heated debate

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Speaker 2: at this point of time. Now, the words that I've

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Speaker 2: been quoting are by j. R. Brunning or Jody Running,

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Speaker 2: who is a sociologist and a Trustee of Physicians and

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Speaker 2: Scientists for Global Responsibility. She has been on the podcast

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Speaker 2: on one occasion, I think from memory, and she's actually

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Speaker 2: very thorough. But the other thing to add at this

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Speaker 2: point is that the information in this report compelled us,

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Speaker 2: I quote compelled us to request that the Ombudsman undertake

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Speaker 2: a formal inquiry. So if by chance you have to

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Speaker 2: be interested in what goes on well shall we say,

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Speaker 2: behind the scenes, then this is a very very interesting discussion.

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Speaker 2: But up in a moment. Brian Layland Layton Smith. Now

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Speaker 2: the name Brian Leland is familiar to most of you,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure, but there are always some who were fresh

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Speaker 2: on the scene or who haven't heard of somebody I'm

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Speaker 2: talking with. So let me give you a little of

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Speaker 2: his background, well much of it, actually, we'll give him.

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Speaker 2: We'll give him the full course. He is a New

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Speaker 2: Zealander based consulting engineer with experience in all aspects of

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Speaker 2: the power industry. His main interest is in hydro power.

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Speaker 2: He has experience in wind, solar, tidal and wave power.

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Speaker 2: He also has worked on substations and transmission lines on diesel,

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Speaker 2: steam and gas turbine stations and he had he's had

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Speaker 2: some involvement in nuclear power. I'm particularly interested in that. Actually,

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Speaker 2: his academic qualifications include do academic qualifications count for much anymore? Well,

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Speaker 2: they do for some people anyway, include a master's degree

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Speaker 2: in Power system design and a Distinguished Fellow of Engineering

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Speaker 2: New Zealand, a Fellow at the Institution of Mechanical Engineers,

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Speaker 2: and a retired Fellow of the Institution of Engineering and Technology.

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Speaker 2: He's also acted as a consultant on many overseas projects

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Speaker 2: in developing countries. This has included work for the World Bank,

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Speaker 2: the Asian Development Bank, and as an independent advisor on

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Speaker 2: dam projects in India, Pakistan, West Africa and Afghanistan. I'd

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Speaker 2: say that that qualifies him to make as much comments,

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Speaker 2: if not more than most people in this country involved

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Speaker 2: in the electricity industry. Brian, did I missety thing up now?

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Speaker 2: That was? You will almost make me feel embarrassed? Well,

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Speaker 2: in fact you do. Well, there's no need for it.

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Speaker 2: What now? Quote you something from about a year ago,

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Speaker 2: maybe ten months and it's from the New Zealand Herald

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Speaker 2: and it's written by Samantha g of Radio New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: And there's really only one line. I want to read

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Speaker 2: New Zealand is heading toward an electricity supply crisis. Now

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Speaker 2: you were awarding of that in the middle of last year.

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Speaker 2: We spoke about it. But that's the middle of last year.

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Speaker 2: We're now a good ten months down the track. What

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Speaker 2: might have changed?

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Speaker 3: Okay, what has changed is the availability of gas. We

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Speaker 3: now know that we've got less gas, and we assumed

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Speaker 3: a year ago. We now know also that the combined

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Speaker 3: cycle station in Taranake, which is throughout articular meguans, will

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Speaker 3: be retired pretty soon. So we've got less gas and

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Speaker 3: less capability of burning it. And the latest security of

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Speaker 3: supply assessment by Transpower, the draft one says that next

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Speaker 3: year is going to be worse than this year, and

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Speaker 3: the year after it will be worse still. Now, who

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Speaker 3: says that Transpower the system operator?

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Speaker 2: And how would Transpower know?

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Speaker 3: Well, they are the ones who are in theory. The

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Speaker 3: other ones who are trying to keep the lights on.

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Speaker 3: But they have no power to build new stations or

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Speaker 3: influence to building a new stations.

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Speaker 2: But are they assuming that there will be weather that

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Speaker 2: doesn't work?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they always assume that there's a possibility of but

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Speaker 3: dry year. But it's getting to the stage now where

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Speaker 3: even in a normal year there may have to be

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Speaker 3: blackouts during peak DeMint periods because we just haven't got

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Speaker 3: enough capacity to keep the lights on, but they would

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Speaker 3: be fairly short two or three hours and intermittent. But

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Speaker 3: a dry year, which is what we've just been through

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Speaker 3: and had last year, is much different and you need

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Speaker 3: massive rotating blackouts to cope with the fact that you

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Speaker 3: haven't gotten that energy.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's something about an assumption that sits uncomfortably

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Speaker 2: with me. They assume that this will be the case,

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Speaker 2: that doesn't plan for if their assumption is wrong.

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Speaker 3: They've got a reasonable handle on contingencies and they've factored

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Speaker 3: the men, but I think they've been on the generous side.

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Speaker 3: Was the contingencies, I would be more pessimistic than they've been.

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Speaker 2: In your experience, and you do a bit of public speaking, etc.

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Speaker 2: Is the New Zealand population across the board aware of

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Speaker 2: how close we are to losing control? No, not at all.

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Speaker 3: And before two thousand and three, if we got short

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Speaker 3: of power, the first thing they did was ask the

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Speaker 3: public to save power, turn off flights, don't do so

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Speaker 3: much hot water and all that sort of thing, and

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Speaker 3: that used to ease the situation by quite a bit.

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Speaker 3: It was got a significant reponse. After two thousand and

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Speaker 3: three they decided that they would shut down industry and

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Speaker 3: commerce before they asked people to save electricity. So last

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Speaker 3: year we shut down Method X and paid a lot

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Speaker 3: for the gas, which is it turned out we virtually

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Speaker 3: did not need, and we reduced output on the smelter,

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Speaker 3: which also cost quite a lot. And this year we've

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Speaker 3: done the same. For those who don't know, and they

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Speaker 3: claim that we're we're getting through it all right, when

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Speaker 3: the real story is we've had shutdowns, just that the

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Speaker 3: public didn't see them.

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Speaker 2: For those unfamiliar, what is METHODEX or who?

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Speaker 3: Method X is the gas? What used to be the

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Speaker 3: gas the gasoline plant, but now it makes Method X

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Speaker 3: methanol instead of gasoline. And it's been a steady taker

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Speaker 3: of gas over the years and provided the steady load

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Speaker 3: for the gas fields which make most of their money

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Speaker 3: out of the liquids associated liquids, so it needs a

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Speaker 3: steady demand.

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Speaker 2: So it's done a good job.

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Speaker 3: But we shouldn't be shutting it down just because we've

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Speaker 3: run out of We haven't stored enough.

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Speaker 2: Gas, so why are we shutting it down?

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Speaker 3: We're starting it down so the gas can be burned

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Speaker 3: in the gas turbine stations to keep the lights on.

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Speaker 2: And how long would that last? I think it's several months.

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Speaker 3: We've got we've shut shutting methodics down for several months,

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Speaker 3: and we've paid for the gas. And as things are

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Speaker 3: looking at the moment, we could give it all back tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: But we've paid for it and we're stuck with it.

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Speaker 2: And that's not a good thing.

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Speaker 3: Well, it puts out the price of power. And you

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Speaker 3: can remember the way the powers market works, the most

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Speaker 3: expensive generator sets the planes for all of them. So

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Speaker 3: when gas is scarce, my little hydro scheme is making

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Speaker 3: heaps of money because it's I get the high price

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Speaker 3: of the gas thing.

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Speaker 2: It's crazy, all right. So let's let's just go back

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Speaker 2: in history a little bit, because we've discussed it before,

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Speaker 2: but it's always I think necessary to update and remind.

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Speaker 2: But when did the when did the problem you've mentioned

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Speaker 2: two thousand and three? But when did the problem really

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Speaker 2: become the issue that it is now, or at least

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Speaker 2: the lead into it.

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Speaker 3: Probably when we signed the Paris Agreement and decided that

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Speaker 3: coal and gas were bad things and that wind and

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Speaker 3: solar were good things, and forgot about the need to

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Speaker 3: keep the lights on when the wind's not blowing and

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Speaker 3: the sun's not shining.

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Speaker 2: Who was in government then?

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Speaker 3: It was Key that signed the Paris Agreement and it

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Speaker 3: was just center the shutdown gas exploration.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that John Key would sign it today?

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Speaker 3: I have no idea it had to be, but anyone

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Speaker 3: would have to be pretty stupid. I mean, the whole

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Speaker 3: agreement internationally is falling to pieces, and seventeen out of

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Speaker 3: the two hundred odd people that have signed up to

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Speaker 3: it or the countries have signed up to it, have

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Speaker 3: given returns this year. Fourteen of them are not meeting

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Speaker 3: their promises with one of them, but the other nearly

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Speaker 3: two hundred, I've forgotten about it. The whole things are

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Speaker 3: a massive nothing. Well it always was, it always was,

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Speaker 3: but it's billions of dollars a year.

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Speaker 2: Can you put a figure on that.

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Speaker 3: According to some reports I've seen, the cost of buying

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Speaker 3: carbon credits, which apparently we will soon have to do,

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Speaker 3: could be ten billion dollars between now and twenty thirty.

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Speaker 3: So that's a couple of billion dollars a year. Then

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Speaker 3: there's the fact that it's jacked up the power price,

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Speaker 3: probably by three or four cents, So everybody's paying three

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Speaker 3: or four cents more for power than they otherwise would.

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Speaker 3: Then you've got the effect that petrol and diesel and

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Speaker 3: all that are also more expensive because of carbon tax.

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Speaker 3: So there's that. It's an endless list. Almost everything you

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Speaker 3: can think about is affected by the net zero belief.

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Speaker 2: All right, So let's assume that you have been appointed

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Speaker 2: as the lord of the the realm of power supply?

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Speaker 2: What would you do? But would I do? First?

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Speaker 3: Is forget about the net zero and also about the

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Speaker 3: rumor that man made greenhouse gases caused dangerous global warming.

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Speaker 3: And if I could do both of those things, I

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Speaker 3: would be searching for gas high speed and burning coal

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Speaker 3: and gas and developing geothermal as fast as I could,

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Speaker 3: which is happening now, and maybe build some more hydro

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Speaker 3: schemes if the greenies would let me the other alternatives.

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Speaker 2: Hold it, hold it, Remember where you were going with that.

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Speaker 2: But if the greenies would let you, what would what

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Speaker 2: would what would be required to put them out of action?

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Speaker 2: As far as that's concerned. A government was determination. Can

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Speaker 2: you see any on the horizon? No, I thought I'd ask.

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Speaker 3: David Seymour, but I'm not quite sure what he believes anyway.

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Speaker 2: So where are you going before I interrupted you?

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Speaker 3: Okay, if we still wanted to believe in man made

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Speaker 3: global warming, I would go nuclear.

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Speaker 2: And that's long term worldwide.

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Speaker 3: Nuclear is the obvious way to generate all the energy

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Speaker 3: we need safely and cheaply. That's it. It'll do it,

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Speaker 3: and it'll do it safely.

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Speaker 2: Here's the interesting thing, Well, it's only one interesting thing.

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Speaker 2: The Australians have just had an election. Of course, the

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Speaker 2: Greens got dumped on but they still are in a

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Speaker 2: position of power slash influence as far as this is concerned,

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Speaker 2: and the majority of Australians it appears, certainly a large

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Speaker 2: number are still opposed to nuclear power, something I cannot

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Speaker 2: work out with that con tree, you can, I.

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Speaker 3: But then the other thing I can't work out is

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Speaker 3: why they export millions of tons of coal millions and

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Speaker 3: millions and won't burn it, and why they export vast

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Speaker 3: qualities of gas from the North Fork Shelf and won't

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Speaker 3: open up gas wells in the southeast equally stupid.

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Speaker 2: Well, has this has something to do with the structure

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Speaker 2: of the Australian political scene. Yeah, I wonder, No, I

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Speaker 2: don't wonder, you can't. I was going to say, I

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Speaker 2: wonder what it would be like in this country if

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Speaker 2: we divided ourselves up into four quarters, for instance, and

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Speaker 2: and elected our own local as in state politicians.

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Speaker 3: Well, seeing we've got into the elected power system from

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Speaker 3: the PowerPoint of view, to be chaos. If it's chaos

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Speaker 3: already even worse than it is now that.

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Speaker 2: All right, we'll past, will pass on that.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 2: James Kilty of Transpower was on radio this morning, the

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Speaker 2: day we speak, which is Tuesday. What did he have

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Speaker 2: to say?

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Speaker 3: Well, basically, he said that we are short of power

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Speaker 3: and the situation is worse than it was last year.

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Speaker 3: But he seems to believe that lots and lots of

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Speaker 3: wind and solar and batteries will save the situation. And

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Speaker 3: that's simply not true. And the reason is that batteries

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Speaker 3: are impossibly expensive when you when you need to make

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Speaker 3: up for the fact that the wind hasn't blown for

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Speaker 3: the last five days and two thousand mega wats of

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Speaker 3: wind are not there, saving extoring enough electricity to keep

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Speaker 3: us to keep the lights on during that period is

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Speaker 3: impossibly expensive.

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Speaker 2: Let's forget for the moment. Let's forget the impossible and

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Speaker 2: an expensive part. How difficult would it be impossible?

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Speaker 3: Same thing if everybody does it in the world, and

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Speaker 3: there's no point in us doing it, and that everybody else does.

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Speaker 3: There's not enough rare earth and various other critical materials

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Speaker 3: available in the time frame to do the job. And

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Speaker 3: it means opening minds at a rapid rate, which you

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Speaker 3: can't do. And it's rare which come out mostly come

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Speaker 3: out of China. The Americans have got plenty of them,

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Speaker 3: but they're Australians, so are the Australians. But their whole

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Speaker 3: approvals system means it takes about six or eight years

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Speaker 3: to open a new mind.

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Speaker 2: So you just can't do it.

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Speaker 3: Then we haven't got all the engineers needed to do

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Speaker 3: all the reinforcement and build all these new stations. It's

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Speaker 3: just simply is impossible from every point of view.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let me extract from you then that's an appropriate

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Speaker 2: word actually considering the question what these what these rare

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Speaker 2: earths actually provide, it's all very well, all very well

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Speaker 2: to throw around I don't mean you, but generally throw

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Speaker 2: around you know, rare earth, rare earths, But what are

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Speaker 2: they especial, especially in relationship to what we're talking about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, apparently they're not actually all that rare, but

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Speaker 3: they're an odd thing. But for instance, all the new

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Speaker 3: wind turbine generators and other things rely on high strength

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Speaker 3: permanent magnets, which use a product called neodymium, which provides

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Speaker 3: very strong magnets. I've got one on my desk and

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Speaker 3: it's extremely strong, and all the wind wind turbine generators

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Speaker 3: use them. And yet thousands and thousands of tons. Then

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Speaker 3: another thing that we'd be short of is copper, because

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Speaker 3: you need lots of copper for the windings of the

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Speaker 3: generators and for the cables that connect it all together.

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Speaker 3: We can't open copper mines fast enough, and I mean

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Speaker 3: we'd double or treble the current rate of mining, and

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Speaker 3: you probably wouldn't still wouldn't be enough.

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Speaker 2: Do we have copper here?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 2: I didn't think so. No, We've probably got rares somewhere.

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Speaker 2: But we do have gold. We do have gold, yes,

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Speaker 2: so we can buy the copper. Yeah. All right. Now,

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Speaker 2: with regard to James Kilty, what else did he have

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Speaker 2: to say, particularly not only about nuclear.

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Speaker 3: He didn't mention nuclear, He didn't mention further gas exploration,

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Speaker 3: which we desperately need because it's the only short term

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Speaker 3: thing can dig us out of trouble. And yet he

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Speaker 3: didn't mention it. It's very strange. I would have thought

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Speaker 3: that he would be hammering on the government store for

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Speaker 3: more gas, and he just doesn't seem to understand the

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Speaker 3: storage problem and the fact that when the wind doesn't

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Speaker 3: blow and the sun doesn't shine, something's got to keep

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Speaker 3: the lights on. But there's also another problem because when

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Speaker 3: the wind is blowing and when the sun does shine,

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Speaker 3: we'll have it. We'll be a wash with electricity if

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Speaker 3: there're the ones that are all built, go ahead, three

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Speaker 3: thousand odd megawats and so the price will crash to

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Speaker 3: nothing on the market. So all these wind farms and

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Speaker 3: solar farms won't be earning anything when they're generating the most.

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Speaker 2: Well, your average punter might into fear here and say

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Speaker 2: what he means, it crashed to nothing. It's their product.

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Speaker 2: They can set the price, Yeah, but it's a surface

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Speaker 2: of it. They can't.

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Speaker 3: Why not, Well, all they can do is refuse to generate,

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Speaker 3: and then the price goes up, and then I'm getting

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Speaker 3: any of it either. Yeah, Otherwise they all form a

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Speaker 3: consortium and agree just how much to generate to keep

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Speaker 3: the price at the at the level they would like

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Speaker 3: it to be. A see, there is which is which

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Speaker 3: is not very good from a novely point of view.

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Speaker 2: There it's a sin in a way. That's what the

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Speaker 2: generators are doing. Now, there is something that intrigues me

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Speaker 2: at the moment across across a much bigger board than

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Speaker 2: we're discussing. But the principle, the principle is the same.

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Speaker 2: Why is it that so many countries are in trouble

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Speaker 2: because of what has not gone before and has now

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Speaker 2: caught up with us? What's where? Where? And how did

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Speaker 2: it become a major issue that countries like us ended

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Speaker 2: up here.

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Speaker 3: Okay, for some reason or other and with the connivance

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Speaker 3: of a lot of people, not necessarily all getting together

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Speaker 3: and plotting against it. But it suits a whole lot

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Speaker 3: of people to tell everybody that the wills and in

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Speaker 3: the edge of disaster from global warning, it's a terrible

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Speaker 3: situation and only I can save you, and you've got

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Speaker 3: to do lots of penance, which is the salvation circus

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Speaker 3: type argument. The world is going to come to an end.

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Speaker 3: Come to me and give me lots of money and women.

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Speaker 3: And so they've played on that. Nothing like a good

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Speaker 3: crisis to get political support, and that's where it started.

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Speaker 3: But there's a whole lot of outfits in the world,

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Speaker 3: and a whole lot of so called scientists climate scientists

350
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Speaker 3: who make their living depends on keeping this whole scam

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Speaker 3: going and send there's the renewable energy people, the wind

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Speaker 3: and solar overseas who get heavily subsidized, and they are

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Speaker 3: very interested in keeping this game going and increasing the subsidies.

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Speaker 3: And the subsidies for offshore wind are horrenders about forty

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Speaker 3: cents a killing with out subsidy. It's crazy. And there's

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Speaker 3: a bigger subsidy for offshore wind than there is for

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Speaker 3: onshore wind. They're both the same product. Why do you

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Speaker 3: pay more for one.

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Speaker 2: Than the other?

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Speaker 3: Why do you pay more than the market price, which

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Speaker 3: is coal fired generation or nuclear?

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Speaker 2: Are you familiar with the name David Leggetts vaguely Director

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Speaker 2: of Research and Education for the Cornwall Alliance for the

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Speaker 2: Stewardship of Creation. He's a retired professor of climatology at

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Speaker 2: the University of Delaware and he's involved with the various organizations.

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Speaker 2: I read this, I read this this morning. Over the years,

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Speaker 2: even before I joined the Cordwell Alliance, I received numerous

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Speaker 2: complaints from people sending me emails who I believe are

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Speaker 2: well meaning that take issue that take issue with my

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Speaker 2: position on carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas, as a pollutant,

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Speaker 2: and as the single most existential threat to the planet

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Speaker 2: as a whole. First, he says, let me state for

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Speaker 2: the record that I do not believe that carbon dioxide, methane,

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Speaker 2: and nitrous oxide are existential threats to the planet, nor

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Speaker 2: are they reasonable threats of any kind. Second, let me

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Speaker 2: also state for the record that I do not believe

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Speaker 2: carbon dioxide is a pollutant. In fact, if all life

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Speaker 2: on Earth ceased to exist, our atmosphere would lose all

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Speaker 2: its oxygen content, and the proportion of carbon dioxide in

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Speaker 2: our atmosphere would increase above ninety five percent. So what

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00:25:06,733 --> 00:25:09,733
Speaker 2: he writes, and then goes on, look, I have to

382
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Speaker 2: say this. I've said it before, but in that debate

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Speaker 2: that was held by Sky Television and back in two

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Speaker 2: thousand and seven, the television debate after showing the first

385
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Speaker 2: climate scam movie, a bunch of us sat around a

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Speaker 2: couple of professors Greenie and myself and another another professor

387
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Speaker 2: who was sort of who was on my team if

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Speaker 2: you like. And at the end of that I was

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Speaker 2: asked for the last words and my comment was simple,

390
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Speaker 2: CO two is not a pollutant. End of story, and

391
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Speaker 2: everyone reckon we run that won the debate, but the

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Speaker 2: point being that that has been around for a long time,

393
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Speaker 2: but it's not a pollutant. But it doesn't get much

394
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Speaker 2: traction in mainstream.

395
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Speaker 3: If you look on the stuff website, it will not

396
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Speaker 3: publish anything that questions man made global warming.

397
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Speaker 2: Well stuff are stuffed. Yeah, no no interest in them

398
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Speaker 2: except for the people I know there. Now, is there

399
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Speaker 2: any any more you want to hit on?

400
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Speaker 1: No?

401
00:26:30,293 --> 00:26:33,613
Speaker 3: No, I think if everybody realizes that we are in

402
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Speaker 3: a more serious situation and hitting words and that they

403
00:26:37,213 --> 00:26:42,413
Speaker 3: should be okay, loving their MP for more guts, that's it.

404
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Speaker 2: All right. No, I've got I've got, I've got a

405
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Speaker 2: bit more. If I can tell me something, If you

406
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Speaker 2: were to debate the appropriate people, and I make it plural,

407
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Speaker 2: the appropriate pleep, the appropriate people in an open debate

408
00:27:00,333 --> 00:27:03,453
Speaker 2: on this subject, who who is it? And I'm talking

409
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Speaker 2: government people, Who is it? That you would be either

410
00:27:07,293 --> 00:27:12,613
Speaker 2: wanting or find yourself debating with I'm not sure it's

411
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Speaker 2: an amorphous mob. Would it would have to be the minister,

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Speaker 2: would it not? For a start?

413
00:27:17,773 --> 00:27:22,333
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the minister would be the obvious one.

414
00:27:22,413 --> 00:27:25,213
Speaker 3: And he seems to believe in it, And I would

415
00:27:25,213 --> 00:27:28,453
Speaker 3: simply ask him what evidence does he have other than

416
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Speaker 3: climate models and the consensus of scientists, which is worthless,

417
00:27:34,013 --> 00:27:37,133
Speaker 3: that man made greenhouse gases caused dangerous global warming?

418
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Speaker 2: Why that's the question. And they won't answer it because

419
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Speaker 2: they can't. And I've been through that same experience for

420
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Speaker 2: years now. Why is it that they can't answer it?

421
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Speaker 3: Because nobody has produced convincing evidence based on real world data,

422
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Speaker 3: not climate models, that man made greenhouse gases caused dangerous

423
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Speaker 3: global warming. Nobody as far as like a Maya in

424
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Speaker 3: the world. We put up a ten thousand dollars prize

425
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Speaker 3: for someone who could provide the information.

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Speaker 2: We got no takers. No, you didn't. I recall in fact,

427
00:28:11,693 --> 00:28:16,333
Speaker 2: I've made a contribution to that. Yeah, then what are

428
00:28:16,373 --> 00:28:19,613
Speaker 2: we doing? What are we doing with ministers, be they

429
00:28:19,653 --> 00:28:24,133
Speaker 2: ministers of climate or whatever they are, who are totally

430
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Speaker 2: unwilling to have an open discussion about the rights and

431
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Speaker 2: wrongs of their ministry.

432
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Speaker 3: The best thing, I think, and I'm not necessary, right,

433
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Speaker 3: is just to hammer on about the excessive costs of

434
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Speaker 3: net zero. How are we squandering all this money? We

435
00:28:42,733 --> 00:28:45,853
Speaker 3: can't make a difference to climate. Everybody else is falling

436
00:28:45,853 --> 00:28:48,013
Speaker 3: by the wayside and ignoring their obligations.

437
00:28:48,093 --> 00:28:49,533
Speaker 2: Oh, but we've got to do our little bit.

438
00:28:50,573 --> 00:28:52,973
Speaker 3: Yeah, well you've got to persuade them that we can't

439
00:28:52,973 --> 00:28:55,973
Speaker 3: afford to do our little bit. And one of my

440
00:28:56,093 --> 00:28:59,973
Speaker 3: projects is to try and make up a list of

441
00:29:00,053 --> 00:29:02,693
Speaker 3: all the what it does cost us. And I'm sure

442
00:29:02,773 --> 00:29:05,773
Speaker 3: it's something like two to five billion dollars a year.

443
00:29:06,333 --> 00:29:12,133
Speaker 2: Well, I absolutely nothing when you get it. When you

444
00:29:12,213 --> 00:29:15,173
Speaker 2: come to that number, let me know I will. In

445
00:29:15,213 --> 00:29:18,893
Speaker 2: the meantime, spread the word, folks, is the only thing

446
00:29:18,933 --> 00:29:22,813
Speaker 2: that I mean. Just tell people send this interview to

447
00:29:22,893 --> 00:29:25,533
Speaker 2: everyone you know, even if you think they won't listen

448
00:29:25,533 --> 00:29:30,213
Speaker 2: to it. That's my comment, Brian, good to talk to you.

449
00:29:30,253 --> 00:29:32,693
Speaker 2: Good to talk to you too, and you keep flying

450
00:29:32,693 --> 00:29:55,373
Speaker 2: the flag. Hi gave. Bucklin is a natural oral vaccine

451
00:29:55,453 --> 00:29:58,493
Speaker 2: in a tablet form called bacterial I say it it'll

452
00:29:58,493 --> 00:30:02,093
Speaker 2: boost your natural protection against bacterial infections. In your chest

453
00:30:02,173 --> 00:30:05,413
Speaker 2: and throat. A three day course of seven Bucklelan tablets

454
00:30:05,413 --> 00:30:07,573
Speaker 2: will help your body build up to three months of

455
00:30:07,693 --> 00:30:12,493
Speaker 2: immunity against bugs which cause bacterial cold symptoms. So who

456
00:30:12,493 --> 00:30:15,333
Speaker 2: can take buccolan well the whole family From two years

457
00:30:15,333 --> 00:30:18,533
Speaker 2: of age and upwards. A course of Buckolan tablets offers

458
00:30:18,613 --> 00:30:22,253
Speaker 2: cost effective and safe protection from colds and chills. Protection

459
00:30:22,373 --> 00:30:25,853
Speaker 2: becomes effective a few days after you take buccolan and

460
00:30:26,013 --> 00:30:28,773
Speaker 2: lasts for up to three months following the three day course.

461
00:30:29,333 --> 00:30:32,053
Speaker 2: Buccolan can be taken throughout the cold season, over winter,

462
00:30:32,373 --> 00:30:34,973
Speaker 2: or all the year round. And remember Buckelan is not

463
00:30:35,053 --> 00:30:38,933
Speaker 2: intended as an alternative to influenza vaccination, but may be

464
00:30:39,093 --> 00:30:42,813
Speaker 2: used along with the flu vaccination for added protection. And

465
00:30:42,933 --> 00:30:45,573
Speaker 2: keep in mind that millions of doses have been taken

466
00:30:45,613 --> 00:30:49,573
Speaker 2: by Kiwis for over fifty years. Only available from your pharmacist.

467
00:30:49,853 --> 00:30:53,213
Speaker 2: Always read the label and users directed and see your

468
00:30:53,213 --> 00:31:01,933
Speaker 2: doctor if systems persist. Farmer Broker au Clumb Jody Brunning

469
00:31:02,653 --> 00:31:07,133
Speaker 2: is a trustee of Physicians and Scientists for Global Responsibility.

470
00:31:08,373 --> 00:31:12,693
Speaker 2: Primary research focus is on the relationship between governance policy

471
00:31:13,293 --> 00:31:18,493
Speaker 2: and the production of scientific technical knowledge for public good

472
00:31:19,093 --> 00:31:22,773
Speaker 2: and she is a prolific worker in this field, and

473
00:31:22,853 --> 00:31:25,973
Speaker 2: I have great admiration for her. Now, for those who

474
00:31:26,093 --> 00:31:33,853
Speaker 2: are unfamiliar, PSGR physicians and scientists for Global Responsibility, and

475
00:31:34,373 --> 00:31:38,173
Speaker 2: they have been well. They were formulated about around about

476
00:31:38,733 --> 00:31:43,653
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine, I think or two thousand, am I right, Yes,

477
00:31:43,693 --> 00:31:46,573
Speaker 2: you are very good. One question that I want to

478
00:31:47,013 --> 00:31:51,653
Speaker 2: I want to ask you how political is the organization?

479
00:31:52,053 --> 00:31:54,973
Speaker 2: What political leaning might PSGR have.

480
00:31:56,453 --> 00:31:56,933
Speaker 4: Well, to be.

481
00:31:56,893 --> 00:31:59,533
Speaker 5: Honest, when we have our agms, which is when we

482
00:31:59,613 --> 00:32:04,093
Speaker 5: come together, the trustees come together, we simply don't actually

483
00:32:04,373 --> 00:32:05,253
Speaker 5: talk about it.

484
00:32:05,893 --> 00:32:08,013
Speaker 4: I guess it's because.

485
00:32:08,173 --> 00:32:11,373
Speaker 5: We are looking at health and we're looking at policy,

486
00:32:11,653 --> 00:32:15,693
Speaker 5: and I guess both national or labor tend to move

487
00:32:15,773 --> 00:32:21,693
Speaker 5: forward in a relatively amorphous fashion, so there is no

488
00:32:21,813 --> 00:32:27,573
Speaker 5: discussion around that. I guess that's the most honest answer

489
00:32:28,733 --> 00:32:32,373
Speaker 5: we get. And we're very limited in how we actually

490
00:32:32,413 --> 00:32:36,013
Speaker 5: approach ministers. I guess I may have briefly spoken to

491
00:32:36,493 --> 00:32:42,373
Speaker 5: email Steve Abel recently, but it's to thank him for

492
00:32:42,493 --> 00:32:44,173
Speaker 5: the work on Select Committee.

493
00:32:44,173 --> 00:32:46,373
Speaker 4: But we really don't do much.

494
00:32:47,453 --> 00:32:49,853
Speaker 2: The reason I asked the question is because we have

495
00:32:49,893 --> 00:32:54,093
Speaker 2: all become well, lots of us have become more deeply

496
00:32:54,133 --> 00:32:58,613
Speaker 2: involved with foreign politics then we might have once been.

497
00:32:59,493 --> 00:33:02,133
Speaker 2: And when it comes to America, of course, there is

498
00:33:02,653 --> 00:33:05,533
Speaker 2: a very much there's a great deal of muck breaking

499
00:33:05,573 --> 00:33:09,733
Speaker 2: that goes on, a great deal of bias and shall

500
00:33:09,773 --> 00:33:13,933
Speaker 2: we say, illegalities. And we like to think that in

501
00:33:13,933 --> 00:33:16,733
Speaker 2: this country we're pretty clean. But I have a feeling

502
00:33:16,813 --> 00:33:20,213
Speaker 2: that things have muddied a little more than they should

503
00:33:20,213 --> 00:33:23,653
Speaker 2: have in some areas, this being one of them, science

504
00:33:23,653 --> 00:33:27,493
Speaker 2: and medicine. And I guess part of the reason for that,

505
00:33:27,733 --> 00:33:30,013
Speaker 2: very strong part of the reason for that way of

506
00:33:30,013 --> 00:33:33,253
Speaker 2: thinking is what we went through in the last few years,

507
00:33:33,533 --> 00:33:36,293
Speaker 2: how we were dealt with, how the crisis was dealt with,

508
00:33:36,573 --> 00:33:41,053
Speaker 2: and what we now know that we were told was

509
00:33:41,093 --> 00:33:43,413
Speaker 2: a no no back during that period.

510
00:33:43,533 --> 00:33:48,293
Speaker 5: You say, look, absolutely, as I have said on this

511
00:33:48,493 --> 00:33:51,773
Speaker 5: Daily Telegraph article, the New Zealand style of government is

512
00:33:51,813 --> 00:33:56,413
Speaker 5: already authoritarian. That's a direct quote from Sir Jeffrey Palmer

513
00:33:56,413 --> 00:34:01,613
Speaker 5: and Andrew Butler Casey. There are no formal constitutional constraints.

514
00:34:01,653 --> 00:34:04,573
Speaker 5: New Zealand has one House of Parliament, which is the

515
00:34:04,613 --> 00:34:09,093
Speaker 5: House of Representatives, of course, and the executive dominates cabinet

516
00:34:09,133 --> 00:34:15,133
Speaker 5: has almost total gemony over parliamentary process. For example, our

517
00:34:15,173 --> 00:34:20,333
Speaker 5: Attorney General General has six ministerial hats. The executive you know,

518
00:34:20,373 --> 00:34:24,533
Speaker 5: the ministries and agencies create the reports for the Select Committee.

519
00:34:24,573 --> 00:34:29,453
Speaker 5: The Select committees have basically no sort of no powers

520
00:34:29,533 --> 00:34:35,133
Speaker 5: to do their own inquisitive inquiry. New Zealand is extraordinarily,

521
00:34:35,173 --> 00:34:39,133
Speaker 5: extraordinarily vulnerable to despotism.

522
00:34:39,413 --> 00:34:41,533
Speaker 2: I would say more so than Australia.

523
00:34:42,733 --> 00:34:44,493
Speaker 5: Well, I think so because we only have one House

524
00:34:44,533 --> 00:34:50,453
Speaker 5: of Parliament and remember our Australia, the Queensland has one

525
00:34:50,453 --> 00:34:52,933
Speaker 5: House of Parliament, which is the state with one House

526
00:34:52,933 --> 00:34:56,773
Speaker 5: of Parliment, and that's in Australia. That's where a lot

527
00:34:56,773 --> 00:35:01,093
Speaker 5: of the COVID laws, the federal the state laws could

528
00:35:01,173 --> 00:35:03,213
Speaker 5: be then they could be sort of cut and pasted

529
00:35:03,253 --> 00:35:08,333
Speaker 5: from Queensland's initiative and so we were super vulnerable basically,

530
00:35:08,413 --> 00:35:14,133
Speaker 5: And because our academia are now largely politically silent, our

531
00:35:14,293 --> 00:35:17,333
Speaker 5: scientists have been silenced because the fund the threat of

532
00:35:17,373 --> 00:35:22,093
Speaker 5: no funding prevents political inquiry that dare I say, into

533
00:35:22,533 --> 00:35:29,293
Speaker 5: technologies that are unsafe and perhaps for me, when I

534
00:35:29,333 --> 00:35:33,773
Speaker 5: saw that May Act created overnight by the Attorney General

535
00:35:33,893 --> 00:35:38,973
Speaker 5: David Parker in twenty twenty and it didn't have the

536
00:35:39,013 --> 00:35:40,933
Speaker 5: protection of people it couldn't.

537
00:35:41,333 --> 00:35:43,213
Speaker 4: It couldn't discern.

538
00:35:42,773 --> 00:35:48,373
Speaker 5: Between a healthy person being safe and someone being at risk.

539
00:35:48,413 --> 00:35:49,333
Speaker 4: And it also.

540
00:35:49,093 --> 00:35:54,133
Speaker 5: Couldn't discern the difference between cases and infection rates and

541
00:35:54,213 --> 00:35:58,373
Speaker 5: actually the risk of hospitalization and death. And that legislation

542
00:35:58,413 --> 00:36:03,053
Speaker 5: could be just draw drawn up, put in overnight, and

543
00:36:03,293 --> 00:36:07,333
Speaker 5: that was okay, And it showed me that we're very

544
00:36:07,413 --> 00:36:10,853
Speaker 5: vulnerable to the next emergency or false flag event.

545
00:36:11,093 --> 00:36:14,893
Speaker 2: It shouldn't have become as any surprise, considering that the

546
00:36:14,933 --> 00:36:18,013
Speaker 2: distinction between a man and a woman was something else

547
00:36:18,053 --> 00:36:19,013
Speaker 2: they lost track of.

548
00:36:19,493 --> 00:36:23,133
Speaker 5: Well, it shows that we're sort of, I guess, a

549
00:36:23,173 --> 00:36:28,093
Speaker 5: bit ideologically vulnerable to the themes of the day that

550
00:36:29,173 --> 00:36:33,493
Speaker 5: seem to drift through the Anglo the Anglo nations in

551
00:36:33,573 --> 00:36:38,293
Speaker 5: particular at the Commonwealth nations. So where where whe're sort

552
00:36:38,293 --> 00:36:42,253
Speaker 5: of see it almost seems as if the central parties

553
00:36:42,253 --> 00:36:45,253
Speaker 5: are being spoon fed the same stuff. And of course

554
00:36:45,253 --> 00:36:51,333
Speaker 5: it always has to it could never contradict large global

555
00:36:51,413 --> 00:36:57,573
Speaker 5: corporations either, So they're sort of fulfilling these global patterns

556
00:36:58,013 --> 00:37:04,533
Speaker 5: which we can all possibly recognize similar patterns that.

557
00:37:03,293 --> 00:37:04,133
Speaker 4: That conform to it.

558
00:37:04,213 --> 00:37:06,253
Speaker 5: I used to be what I called woke, and now

559
00:37:06,373 --> 00:37:11,253
Speaker 5: I'm looking at what we call woe. And it's really

560
00:37:11,293 --> 00:37:13,693
Speaker 5: difficult because we haven't been taught to look critically.

561
00:37:13,773 --> 00:37:15,493
Speaker 4: We've been taught to assemble.

562
00:37:15,013 --> 00:37:19,213
Speaker 5: Information and put it in a place, but the veracity

563
00:37:19,253 --> 00:37:24,293
Speaker 5: of that information, whether it's good qualityduced to it, and

564
00:37:24,333 --> 00:37:27,133
Speaker 5: that's what our young people and I don't think I

565
00:37:27,253 --> 00:37:30,893
Speaker 5: myself has taught that at high school or university either

566
00:37:31,133 --> 00:37:34,053
Speaker 5: to start to really look critically at who produced the

567
00:37:34,093 --> 00:37:38,973
Speaker 5: information and were there any conflicts political or financial of interests.

568
00:37:39,133 --> 00:37:40,653
Speaker 4: I think we haven't done that correctly.

569
00:37:41,333 --> 00:37:43,773
Speaker 2: Well, it's had a long grounding, then, hasn't it The

570
00:37:43,853 --> 00:37:47,133
Speaker 2: ignorance I'm talking Let me quote this the beginning of

571
00:37:47,173 --> 00:37:49,853
Speaker 2: the article that you published a couple of days ago,

572
00:37:50,173 --> 00:37:53,213
Speaker 2: which is really what we're here to discuss. In the

573
00:37:53,253 --> 00:37:58,293
Speaker 2: main anyway, a remarkable situation has arisen in New Zealand.

574
00:37:58,453 --> 00:38:03,413
Speaker 2: The agency tasks with economic growth that controls the science

575
00:38:03,493 --> 00:38:07,413
Speaker 2: funding budget, wants to have the power of administering the

576
00:38:07,493 --> 00:38:12,853
Speaker 2: legislation that would steward the very technologies that it directly

577
00:38:12,893 --> 00:38:18,253
Speaker 2: funds scientists to produce. It is the most perfect form

578
00:38:18,253 --> 00:38:21,013
Speaker 2: of vertical integration, and it says a lot about the

579
00:38:21,013 --> 00:38:26,773
Speaker 2: biggest risk to democracy, the concentration and centralization of power.

580
00:38:27,853 --> 00:38:29,493
Speaker 2: Now there's more I'd like to read, and I might

581
00:38:29,533 --> 00:38:33,093
Speaker 2: get to it shortly, but just looking at that first paragraph,

582
00:38:33,213 --> 00:38:37,533
Speaker 2: the concentration and centralization of power, Now this is a

583
00:38:37,613 --> 00:38:41,693
Speaker 2: what we're discussing here as a scientific field. Is it

584
00:38:41,773 --> 00:38:46,293
Speaker 2: not a surprise that that's the area where this leverage

585
00:38:47,013 --> 00:38:52,533
Speaker 2: seems to be growing as opposed to other matters of politics.

586
00:38:55,173 --> 00:38:58,213
Speaker 5: I'm not sure about that, because when you look at

587
00:38:58,253 --> 00:39:01,773
Speaker 5: what's happened to statsin z for example, they're seeming to

588
00:39:02,133 --> 00:39:09,413
Speaker 5: concentrate power through harmonizing ID numbers across news nilands landscape,

589
00:39:09,453 --> 00:39:12,693
Speaker 5: and we're seeing that happening in the information sharing agreements.

590
00:39:13,293 --> 00:39:14,693
Speaker 4: But it's often I.

591
00:39:14,653 --> 00:39:17,493
Speaker 5: Guess the pattern that is the similar A similar pattern

592
00:39:17,533 --> 00:39:23,053
Speaker 5: there is the technology has become scalable to such an

593
00:39:23,133 --> 00:39:27,253
Speaker 5: extent that it can be done. So I guess I

594
00:39:27,853 --> 00:39:31,973
Speaker 5: have to perhaps I now agree with you, because we

595
00:39:32,053 --> 00:39:37,173
Speaker 5: can produce, for example, gene edited technologies and organisms that

596
00:39:37,253 --> 00:39:41,413
Speaker 5: can be scaled up in a massive place. Whe're then

597
00:39:41,533 --> 00:39:44,653
Speaker 5: seeing the concentration of power to enable that further, so

598
00:39:44,693 --> 00:39:49,093
Speaker 5: we're seeing what I called their vertical integration. It's the

599
00:39:49,333 --> 00:39:54,573
Speaker 5: economic growth agency responsible for trying to increase the amount

600
00:39:54,613 --> 00:39:59,293
Speaker 5: of inventions that go into out into the ether, that

601
00:39:59,333 --> 00:40:02,933
Speaker 5: hopefully make money, and that've taken it upon it themselves.

602
00:40:03,093 --> 00:40:05,133
Speaker 5: That it's just sort of like they said to the APAA,

603
00:40:05,213 --> 00:40:07,933
Speaker 5: So we're going to take control of producing the new

604
00:40:08,733 --> 00:40:14,453
Speaker 5: legislation for GMOs because gene edited techniques and organisms are

605
00:40:14,893 --> 00:40:19,933
Speaker 5: genetically modified. These they produce genetically modified organisms. Gene edited

606
00:40:21,013 --> 00:40:24,773
Speaker 5: organisms are one subset of that, so we shouldn't be

607
00:40:24,813 --> 00:40:28,693
Speaker 5: deceived by pretending there's something else. So it's yeah, it's

608
00:40:29,413 --> 00:40:32,253
Speaker 5: pretty crazy, it's really crazy.

609
00:40:32,653 --> 00:40:34,253
Speaker 2: I want to quote you a bit more of yourself

610
00:40:34,333 --> 00:40:37,373
Speaker 2: because I was impressed with it. The New Zealand public

611
00:40:37,413 --> 00:40:41,853
Speaker 2: is growing increasingly skeptical about the capacity for democratic institutions

612
00:40:41,893 --> 00:40:46,013
Speaker 2: to put our best interest at heart. Conventions and processes

613
00:40:46,053 --> 00:40:49,533
Speaker 2: are in place to ensure that these institutions are transparent

614
00:40:50,493 --> 00:40:55,333
Speaker 2: and accountable. Public good policy requires that the information underpinning

615
00:40:55,373 --> 00:40:59,493
Speaker 2: decision making is of the best possible standard, which is

616
00:40:59,493 --> 00:41:01,733
Speaker 2: always a very vague term as far as I'm concerned.

617
00:41:02,253 --> 00:41:06,733
Speaker 2: But what if those processes are bypassed, if processes of

618
00:41:06,853 --> 00:41:11,253
Speaker 2: knowledge gathering un the what if scientists and researchers have

619
00:41:11,373 --> 00:41:15,333
Speaker 2: become so hemmed in by tightly controlled policy, that they're

620
00:41:15,413 --> 00:41:17,853
Speaker 2: more like pawn's in a chess game rather than truth

621
00:41:17,893 --> 00:41:22,013
Speaker 2: seekers driven by curiosity to expand knowledge for the betterment

622
00:41:22,053 --> 00:41:26,213
Speaker 2: of society. How does this entrapment of science come out

623
00:41:26,213 --> 00:41:28,013
Speaker 2: in the wash? Take it from there.

624
00:41:29,373 --> 00:41:32,453
Speaker 5: So the Ministry for Business and in Innovation and Employment

625
00:41:32,653 --> 00:41:36,413
Speaker 5: MV is quite interesting. They gained their powers through secondary legislation.

626
00:41:36,893 --> 00:41:39,013
Speaker 4: They did not hold it.

627
00:41:40,053 --> 00:41:42,373
Speaker 2: So what is secondary legislation.

628
00:41:43,693 --> 00:41:51,173
Speaker 5: So when traditionally when a ministry is it comes into being,

629
00:41:51,693 --> 00:41:54,853
Speaker 5: it's through a primary active legislation and that has a

630
00:41:54,893 --> 00:41:57,293
Speaker 5: purpose and purpose says you must do this, this, and this.

631
00:41:57,733 --> 00:41:59,293
Speaker 4: There's no such purpose for MV.

632
00:41:59,733 --> 00:42:04,453
Speaker 5: They came into into power through an Order in Council

633
00:42:05,093 --> 00:42:10,453
Speaker 5: in twenty twelve and the legislation that produced MB gave

634
00:42:10,573 --> 00:42:14,413
Speaker 5: them the powers over the science enterprise. So this did

635
00:42:14,453 --> 00:42:20,813
Speaker 5: not go through Parliament, so then MB could control the science.

636
00:42:20,853 --> 00:42:23,093
Speaker 5: So that was twenty twelve, and by twenty fourteen they

637
00:42:23,253 --> 00:42:26,893
Speaker 5: released the National Statement of Science Investment. That was twenty

638
00:42:27,213 --> 00:42:29,093
Speaker 5: and so that was the plan from twenty fifteen to

639
00:42:29,133 --> 00:42:32,813
Speaker 5: twenty twenty five and the subject of my master's thesis

640
00:42:32,813 --> 00:42:39,293
Speaker 5: of sociology research project and I interviewed scientists, professors, associate

641
00:42:39,333 --> 00:42:44,213
Speaker 5: professors looking at health research policy, and I was able

642
00:42:44,253 --> 00:42:49,933
Speaker 5: to identify that this national Statement of Science Investment, which

643
00:42:50,373 --> 00:42:59,493
Speaker 5: prioritized innovation, basically produced the desire or the requirement that

644
00:42:59,533 --> 00:43:03,973
Speaker 5: if you're applying for funding in New Zealand, you must

645
00:43:04,013 --> 00:43:10,573
Speaker 5: be assuring the funding committees, which are peer scientists, that

646
00:43:10,653 --> 00:43:12,533
Speaker 5: you are going to produce an innovation.

647
00:43:13,573 --> 00:43:13,973
Speaker 4: And that.

648
00:43:15,493 --> 00:43:21,613
Speaker 5: Entrapped scientists because it required them to look for patents

649
00:43:21,733 --> 00:43:28,013
Speaker 5: and internet and produce intellectual property rights and IP and

650
00:43:28,253 --> 00:43:33,973
Speaker 5: it required that they would not One of the requirements

651
00:43:34,053 --> 00:43:37,133
Speaker 5: was that the science would be excellent. So every scientist

652
00:43:37,173 --> 00:43:40,853
Speaker 5: knows if you're an electrical engineer, you will understand a

653
00:43:40,853 --> 00:43:44,693
Speaker 5: certain form of excellence. If you're a cancer researcher, you'll

654
00:43:44,853 --> 00:43:48,253
Speaker 5: understand a certain form of excellence. Excellence is something that

655
00:43:48,333 --> 00:43:52,133
Speaker 5: you agree with in a tiny subset of a particular discipline.

656
00:43:52,453 --> 00:43:55,933
Speaker 5: So the requirement for excellence and innovation meant that all

657
00:43:55,973 --> 00:43:57,933
Speaker 5: of a sudden you had a lot more applied science,

658
00:43:58,133 --> 00:44:01,613
Speaker 5: a lot less basic science being undertaken. It was much

659
00:44:01,653 --> 00:44:05,413
Speaker 5: more difficult to apply for science for basic research, which

660
00:44:05,773 --> 00:44:09,893
Speaker 5: is what we know is the curiosity driven research, and

661
00:44:10,013 --> 00:44:13,853
Speaker 5: often that basic research is where we find the problems,

662
00:44:14,173 --> 00:44:17,213
Speaker 5: where we understand, for example, what that exposure to that

663
00:44:17,293 --> 00:44:22,813
Speaker 5: chemical or that emission might do to the biological cell,

664
00:44:22,933 --> 00:44:27,613
Speaker 5: the human body, the waterway, and that's how we understand, oh,

665
00:44:27,653 --> 00:44:30,373
Speaker 5: we need to regulate it in a certain way. So

666
00:44:30,573 --> 00:44:33,373
Speaker 5: right now we don't have any of that sort of science.

667
00:44:33,733 --> 00:44:38,653
Speaker 5: So it's no prize that when you identify something that

668
00:44:38,733 --> 00:44:41,533
Speaker 5: is causing harm you then look for the scientist or

669
00:44:41,573 --> 00:44:47,173
Speaker 5: the scientific group the researching that harm. That you will

670
00:44:47,213 --> 00:44:51,773
Speaker 5: not find that in New Zealand today. So then when

671
00:44:51,813 --> 00:44:55,493
Speaker 5: I say pawns in a chess game, it means that

672
00:44:56,133 --> 00:45:01,453
Speaker 5: the basic science that is decided on what our big

673
00:45:01,533 --> 00:45:07,333
Speaker 5: missions are, that is politically decided by MB by the

674
00:45:07,373 --> 00:45:11,693
Speaker 5: menace and in all by their I guess that the

675
00:45:11,693 --> 00:45:16,133
Speaker 5: political scientists such as Sir Peter Blackman that worked for

676
00:45:16,173 --> 00:45:21,013
Speaker 5: them and who who themselves will have their own you know,

677
00:45:21,053 --> 00:45:24,173
Speaker 5: their own babies, their own areas that they really want

678
00:45:24,213 --> 00:45:27,773
Speaker 5: to progress. So we have very narrow forms of basic

679
00:45:27,813 --> 00:45:33,173
Speaker 5: science that's permitted, and we do not get scientists researching

680
00:45:33,733 --> 00:45:38,733
Speaker 5: the toxics, the you know, the EMF the toxics we

681
00:45:39,533 --> 00:45:44,733
Speaker 5: had after COVID finished, you know, in twenty twenty twenty three,

682
00:45:44,933 --> 00:45:47,413
Speaker 5: they were able to set aside twenty million dollars for

683
00:45:47,613 --> 00:45:50,493
Speaker 5: MR and A research. But of course we didn't even

684
00:45:50,493 --> 00:45:54,533
Speaker 5: see two million dollars for research on the mechanisms of

685
00:45:54,613 --> 00:46:00,493
Speaker 5: harm that can occur through injection with a vaccine that

686
00:46:01,013 --> 00:46:04,373
Speaker 5: itself is an MR and a gene edited biologic drum.

687
00:46:04,533 --> 00:46:09,573
Speaker 2: All right, So the leaning that they're taking is as

688
00:46:09,613 --> 00:46:11,293
Speaker 2: opposed to scientific.

689
00:46:11,773 --> 00:46:17,533
Speaker 5: Well, and to be fair, so if you're looking at

690
00:46:17,613 --> 00:46:23,893
Speaker 5: regulatory science, that is always socio political or socio scientific,

691
00:46:24,413 --> 00:46:30,933
Speaker 5: because regulatory scientists need to make everyone happy. And this

692
00:46:30,973 --> 00:46:36,933
Speaker 5: is why we often see regulation scientific information or the

693
00:46:37,053 --> 00:46:41,413
Speaker 5: information being used by regulatory scientists becoming more and more outdated,

694
00:46:41,973 --> 00:46:46,453
Speaker 5: no matter how quickly technology speeds, and we already see

695
00:46:46,453 --> 00:46:49,533
Speaker 5: with this gene technology build no capacity, for example, for

696
00:46:49,573 --> 00:46:54,853
Speaker 5: the regulator to actually have inquisitorial powers to understand, for example,

697
00:46:54,893 --> 00:47:01,253
Speaker 5: what ARI means, for the capacity for gene technology to

698
00:47:01,653 --> 00:47:06,173
Speaker 5: be released at scales to move more quickly, for many,

699
00:47:06,213 --> 00:47:11,053
Speaker 5: many more GMO gene edited organisms to be released into

700
00:47:11,093 --> 00:47:13,733
Speaker 5: the into the environment than previously.

701
00:47:14,333 --> 00:47:18,013
Speaker 4: And ultimately we were talking.

702
00:47:17,773 --> 00:47:22,493
Speaker 5: About the DSIR, which was disabled in nineteen ninety two.

703
00:47:23,293 --> 00:47:26,053
Speaker 5: It was replaced by another ministry that was then disabled

704
00:47:26,093 --> 00:47:30,093
Speaker 5: in twenty twelve, which was replaced by mb These minstry,

705
00:47:30,573 --> 00:47:35,093
Speaker 5: these ministries were more separate from because they were just science.

706
00:47:35,813 --> 00:47:44,573
Speaker 5: Once we had the whole science funding institutions stuck inside

707
00:47:44,613 --> 00:47:52,093
Speaker 5: the Ministry for Economic Growth, it became pervasively political because

708
00:47:52,093 --> 00:47:55,373
Speaker 5: that's economic growth. It can't do anything else but be

709
00:47:55,533 --> 00:47:59,413
Speaker 5: controubled by that minister, and that is the priority of

710
00:47:59,453 --> 00:48:00,093
Speaker 5: that minister.

711
00:48:00,973 --> 00:48:03,213
Speaker 2: Mbie otherwise known as Mimbi.

712
00:48:05,453 --> 00:48:10,693
Speaker 4: Who was the minister, the Honorable Judith Colins.

713
00:48:11,293 --> 00:48:14,493
Speaker 2: See, I couldn't. I couldn't. I went looking because I

714
00:48:14,573 --> 00:48:17,493
Speaker 2: wasn't I wasn't precisely or I wasn't sure, So I

715
00:48:17,533 --> 00:48:21,813
Speaker 2: went searching. I found plenty on memory, but I couldn't

716
00:48:21,853 --> 00:48:22,533
Speaker 2: find the minister.

717
00:48:23,573 --> 00:48:26,973
Speaker 5: So it's really this is why it's really diffuse and difficult.

718
00:48:26,973 --> 00:48:31,813
Speaker 5: So Collins was the minister, so I apologize. Collins was

719
00:48:31,853 --> 00:48:35,573
Speaker 5: the Minister for Science, So of course she's inside MB

720
00:48:35,773 --> 00:48:39,693
Speaker 5: as the Minister for silence science. And at the same

721
00:48:39,733 --> 00:48:42,453
Speaker 5: time she's the Attorney General, she's a King's Counsel, she's

722
00:48:42,493 --> 00:48:45,773
Speaker 5: the Minister for Defense, she's the Minister for digitizing government.

723
00:48:46,053 --> 00:48:48,373
Speaker 5: She was the Minister for Science and then she became

724
00:48:48,413 --> 00:48:51,613
Speaker 5: the Minister for Public Service. She's the Minister for the GCS,

725
00:48:52,093 --> 00:48:54,693
Speaker 5: the n z SIS and the Minister for Space. So

726
00:48:54,973 --> 00:48:57,093
Speaker 5: of course we've never ever in the history of New

727
00:48:57,173 --> 00:49:00,493
Speaker 5: Zealand had an Attorney General with that many ministerial hats,

728
00:49:01,013 --> 00:49:03,973
Speaker 5: and if we want to talk about centralizing government, that's

729
00:49:03,973 --> 00:49:09,333
Speaker 5: a whole other interview. And so she quick clique rushed

730
00:49:09,373 --> 00:49:14,413
Speaker 5: these reforms through and there are very clear moments where

731
00:49:14,453 --> 00:49:20,813
Speaker 5: you can see that she was ordering officials not to

732
00:49:20,853 --> 00:49:25,053
Speaker 5: do certain things. So, for example, MB in twenty twenty

733
00:49:25,093 --> 00:49:29,653
Speaker 5: four deliberately wrote out engagement with the public and that's

734
00:49:29,693 --> 00:49:34,413
Speaker 5: in the regulatory impact Statement on page thirteen, and then

735
00:49:34,453 --> 00:49:38,893
Speaker 5: they handpicked the technical Advisory Group and the stakeholders. Earlier,

736
00:49:39,413 --> 00:49:42,653
Speaker 5: the Productivity Commissioner in the Frontier Firms report had said,

737
00:49:43,213 --> 00:49:47,133
Speaker 5: if we're going to update the gene editing technology legislation,

738
00:49:47,853 --> 00:49:51,693
Speaker 5: we need early consultation with the public and with Maori.

739
00:49:52,933 --> 00:49:58,053
Speaker 5: The Productivity Commissioner was very clear, but at the minister's direction,

740
00:49:58,333 --> 00:50:03,773
Speaker 5: at the Attorney General's direction, that was prohibited. And similarly,

741
00:50:05,213 --> 00:50:10,493
Speaker 5: at ministerial direction, officials did not consider options for reforming.

742
00:50:10,533 --> 00:50:13,493
Speaker 5: There has no the hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act.

743
00:50:13,893 --> 00:50:17,773
Speaker 5: So Collins has said, no one is allowed to talk

744
00:50:17,813 --> 00:50:20,933
Speaker 5: about reforming that has no act. We've got because that

745
00:50:21,053 --> 00:50:25,733
Speaker 5: is of course under the control of the Department of Conservation,

746
00:50:26,133 --> 00:50:31,293
Speaker 5: I think, And it's of course that is stewarded. It's

747
00:50:31,333 --> 00:50:34,533
Speaker 5: administered by the Department of Conservation. But of course the

748
00:50:34,533 --> 00:50:38,133
Speaker 5: EPA has responsibility for it. So what would happen now

749
00:50:38,253 --> 00:50:42,293
Speaker 5: is MB would have responsibility for of course it's it's

750
00:50:42,333 --> 00:50:46,133
Speaker 5: designed the terribly drafted Primary Act. But then MB would

751
00:50:46,173 --> 00:50:48,893
Speaker 5: be responsible for all the secondary of legislation that could

752
00:50:48,933 --> 00:50:51,813
Speaker 5: tumble out, so it wouldn't be the EPA doing that work,

753
00:50:51,853 --> 00:50:54,573
Speaker 5: it would be MB. And so it's due to Collins

754
00:50:54,573 --> 00:50:57,533
Speaker 5: that said, we're not we're not considering options for reforming

755
00:50:57,573 --> 00:51:01,973
Speaker 5: that has no act. And Professor Jack Heineman has pointed

756
00:51:02,013 --> 00:51:07,173
Speaker 5: out that what are the costs of, for example, the

757
00:51:07,213 --> 00:51:09,773
Speaker 5: administration of the cur has no act compared to the

758
00:51:09,773 --> 00:51:14,813
Speaker 5: new legislation, which in this new legislation is so nebulous

759
00:51:14,853 --> 00:51:17,613
Speaker 5: that no one ever will understand where it starts and stops.

760
00:51:17,613 --> 00:51:19,693
Speaker 5: Whereas there has no act, actually has worked, it's a

761
00:51:19,733 --> 00:51:20,893
Speaker 5: nineteen ninety six act.

762
00:51:21,173 --> 00:51:23,293
Speaker 4: It's worked actually very very well.

763
00:51:24,093 --> 00:51:27,653
Speaker 5: For example, New Zealand has avoided all the superweeds that

764
00:51:27,813 --> 00:51:32,213
Speaker 5: America has because of the herbicide tolerant crops. So we've

765
00:51:32,533 --> 00:51:38,893
Speaker 5: avoided that bullet, shall we say, by our strict outside

766
00:51:40,133 --> 00:51:44,573
Speaker 5: we don't let GMOs freely into the environment. But it

767
00:51:44,693 --> 00:51:48,693
Speaker 5: is not a strict ban, and so this is also

768
00:51:48,893 --> 00:51:51,373
Speaker 5: the public have been somewhat misled because it hasn't been

769
00:51:51,373 --> 00:51:53,613
Speaker 5: a strict ban, but it has been a very strict

770
00:51:53,653 --> 00:51:55,333
Speaker 5: case by case assessment basis.

771
00:51:56,213 --> 00:52:01,093
Speaker 2: But there is no doubt. It appears or an expectation

772
00:52:01,253 --> 00:52:02,853
Speaker 2: is a is a better way to put it. It

773
00:52:02,933 --> 00:52:07,853
Speaker 2: is an expectation that some of what is happening in

774
00:52:07,853 --> 00:52:11,093
Speaker 2: the genet field will roll out into the into the wild,

775
00:52:11,173 --> 00:52:13,773
Speaker 2: so to speak, and will be then uncontrollable.

776
00:52:15,253 --> 00:52:22,173
Speaker 5: Yes, and I do believe that MP's have been misled

777
00:52:22,493 --> 00:52:28,653
Speaker 5: and deceived because they believe, and this is quoting a minister,

778
00:52:29,133 --> 00:52:33,893
Speaker 5: that these gene edited organisms will be completely different from

779
00:52:34,053 --> 00:52:39,893
Speaker 5: genetically modified organisms. They're still genetically modified organisms. So what

780
00:52:39,933 --> 00:52:43,453
Speaker 5: we've seen is we haven't seen any any science. So

781
00:52:43,813 --> 00:52:49,013
Speaker 5: you were talking before about science being politicized. Science is trustworthy,

782
00:52:50,053 --> 00:52:54,693
Speaker 5: like law is trustworthy if it follows good process, if

783
00:52:54,693 --> 00:53:00,773
Speaker 5: it follows conventions. This is why when a scientist writes

784
00:53:00,853 --> 00:53:03,773
Speaker 5: up a scientific paper, he or she has to write

785
00:53:03,853 --> 00:53:04,653
Speaker 5: up the methods.

786
00:53:05,253 --> 00:53:05,693
Speaker 4: We have to.

787
00:53:05,693 --> 00:53:10,253
Speaker 5: Understand what other information was looked up to produce the

788
00:53:10,693 --> 00:53:16,253
Speaker 5: information base on which this scientific project was made. And

789
00:53:16,293 --> 00:53:21,813
Speaker 5: then that scientists will declare the values. Is it going

790
00:53:21,813 --> 00:53:24,173
Speaker 5: to be a ninety five percent of probability? For example,

791
00:53:24,493 --> 00:53:27,893
Speaker 5: they will declare precise value, So it's the same for

792
00:53:29,053 --> 00:53:33,533
Speaker 5: governance and law and convention a value. If you look

793
00:53:33,533 --> 00:53:35,693
Speaker 5: at a value for you and me, it might be

794
00:53:35,933 --> 00:53:39,293
Speaker 5: are we protecting children? How do we protect children? Do

795
00:53:39,373 --> 00:53:42,773
Speaker 5: we protect children based on the potential that they could

796
00:53:42,813 --> 00:53:48,773
Speaker 5: be harmed by a genetically modified organism that might be inflammatory,

797
00:53:48,853 --> 00:53:51,853
Speaker 5: so it might cause harm over the long term if

798
00:53:51,893 --> 00:53:54,693
Speaker 5: they didn't know what they were eating and it became

799
00:53:54,733 --> 00:53:58,013
Speaker 5: a big part of their diet. Or are we going

800
00:53:58,053 --> 00:54:00,333
Speaker 5: to say we want to be very protective, so we

801
00:54:00,453 --> 00:54:04,453
Speaker 5: have to declare everything transparently. So I guess I'm mushing

802
00:54:04,533 --> 00:54:07,413
Speaker 5: things up here because I'm trying to get a lot.

803
00:54:08,573 --> 00:54:08,693
Speaker 2: Right.

804
00:54:09,333 --> 00:54:10,133
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you.

805
00:54:10,533 --> 00:54:14,373
Speaker 5: So what we haven't seen we haven't we haven't seen

806
00:54:15,693 --> 00:54:21,213
Speaker 5: a robust risk assessment. So what Envy have done is

807
00:54:21,253 --> 00:54:25,333
Speaker 5: they produced a little like a stupid little, i'm going

808
00:54:25,413 --> 00:54:29,093
Speaker 5: to say, stupid little press release in about August twenty

809
00:54:29,093 --> 00:54:32,013
Speaker 5: twenty four. That was their scientific basis and that was

810
00:54:32,053 --> 00:54:37,573
Speaker 5: the last thing we saw before the actual bill was released.

811
00:54:38,013 --> 00:54:42,053
Speaker 5: And in that stupid little press release they said the

812
00:54:42,093 --> 00:54:44,173
Speaker 5: public aren't going to be consulted and they will have

813
00:54:44,213 --> 00:54:47,573
Speaker 5: their time to be consulted once the legislation, the bill

814
00:54:47,653 --> 00:54:52,093
Speaker 5: is released. Now. They also by then the government had

815
00:54:52,413 --> 00:54:56,933
Speaker 5: known that they had the regulatory Impact Statement, where ministers

816
00:54:56,973 --> 00:55:01,893
Speaker 5: themselves knew that there was not an assurance that the

817
00:55:02,013 --> 00:55:05,613
Speaker 5: future bill would be safe, that it would be do

818
00:55:05,733 --> 00:55:07,693
Speaker 5: the job it was meant to do, because there was

819
00:55:07,773 --> 00:55:12,613
Speaker 5: no there was no methods based procedural risk assessment to

820
00:55:12,853 --> 00:55:20,573
Speaker 5: understand the gene editing techniques, the gene editing organisms that

821
00:55:20,653 --> 00:55:23,613
Speaker 5: are going to be what's called risk tiered. They're going

822
00:55:23,653 --> 00:55:26,133
Speaker 5: to be put outside the legislation because they're going to

823
00:55:26,173 --> 00:55:31,053
Speaker 5: pretend they're pretending they're not GMOs. So they're saying these

824
00:55:31,093 --> 00:55:33,573
Speaker 5: are not a GMO because they don't, for example, produce

825
00:55:33,693 --> 00:55:37,853
Speaker 5: a protein. They're not looking at what DNA might still

826
00:55:37,893 --> 00:55:41,213
Speaker 5: be in those organisms. They're not looking at what might

827
00:55:41,213 --> 00:55:44,973
Speaker 5: have happened if they put they spliced DNA in, then

828
00:55:45,013 --> 00:55:48,333
Speaker 5: they took the DNA out and that resulted in a

829
00:55:48,373 --> 00:55:54,413
Speaker 5: reshuffling of the genome and then, for example, that organism

830
00:55:54,453 --> 00:55:57,413
Speaker 5: becomes more vulnerable to sickness or disease. But they don't

831
00:55:57,413 --> 00:56:00,413
Speaker 5: want to talk about that because they put the different

832
00:56:00,493 --> 00:56:03,973
Speaker 5: DNA in and they pulled it back out again, and

833
00:56:04,053 --> 00:56:07,653
Speaker 5: so they don't have to declare the DNA or the

834
00:56:07,733 --> 00:56:10,933
Speaker 5: foreign change because it's been taken out again. So it

835
00:56:10,933 --> 00:56:13,853
Speaker 5: becomes a little bit misleading, a little bit you can't understand.

836
00:56:13,893 --> 00:56:16,773
Speaker 5: So they're pretending that's not a GMO and that doesn't

837
00:56:16,813 --> 00:56:19,053
Speaker 5: have to be declared. It can be risked heered outside.

838
00:56:19,213 --> 00:56:21,653
Speaker 2: Well, hang on hold it. The term GMO was one

839
00:56:21,653 --> 00:56:25,773
Speaker 2: that's applied by it, that's invented, if you like, and applied. Yes,

840
00:56:25,813 --> 00:56:31,093
Speaker 2: So what you're saying is that as they've applied it

841
00:56:31,453 --> 00:56:34,093
Speaker 2: to one thing, they've now rearranged it and they've decided

842
00:56:34,133 --> 00:56:39,813
Speaker 2: to it's not science. It's not science, it's it's engineering driven.

843
00:56:40,573 --> 00:56:42,973
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a it's a shell game.

844
00:56:43,653 --> 00:56:46,213
Speaker 5: So if you look at the food stands as Australia

845
00:56:46,253 --> 00:56:50,853
Speaker 5: New Zealand, they're P one zero five five. It's a

846
00:56:50,973 --> 00:56:54,733
Speaker 5: current I think bill or change in proposed change in the.

847
00:56:55,173 --> 00:56:57,653
Speaker 4: Food Standards Australia New Zealand Act.

848
00:56:58,013 --> 00:57:02,733
Speaker 5: And they're proposing that certain classes are GMOs aren't GMOs anymore.

849
00:57:02,893 --> 00:57:05,013
Speaker 5: But if you go back and look over the last

850
00:57:05,053 --> 00:57:08,053
Speaker 5: ten years through all the white papers where they've done

851
00:57:08,093 --> 00:57:13,093
Speaker 5: the assessments of what these new gene edited organisms are

852
00:57:13,253 --> 00:57:16,413
Speaker 5: that might not involve an exact change to their DNA,

853
00:57:17,293 --> 00:57:21,493
Speaker 5: Oh so sorry, they don't produce a protein, they are

854
00:57:21,533 --> 00:57:24,693
Speaker 5: not a GMO, And so they're making that. They're producing

855
00:57:24,693 --> 00:57:27,973
Speaker 5: all these little white papers that don't have a ref

856
00:57:28,093 --> 00:57:30,813
Speaker 5: that that don't have any methods. They're not showing that

857
00:57:30,853 --> 00:57:34,653
Speaker 5: we're doing a review of the scientific literature to understand

858
00:57:34,853 --> 00:57:38,733
Speaker 5: what harm or risk may may arise. So food standards

859
00:57:38,733 --> 00:57:41,253
Speaker 5: have been doing that for the last decade. Then we've

860
00:57:41,253 --> 00:57:45,493
Speaker 5: seen MB do this that play the same trick. We're

861
00:57:45,493 --> 00:57:48,493
Speaker 5: not doing any methods based risk assessment, but we're going

862
00:57:48,533 --> 00:57:50,813
Speaker 5: to tell you that it's going to be risk proportionate.

863
00:57:52,013 --> 00:57:57,253
Speaker 5: Where they get their scientific evidence from is the Royal Society.

864
00:57:57,653 --> 00:58:03,693
Speaker 4: So the Royal Society, with themselves paid by envy, have

865
00:58:03,893 --> 00:58:09,053
Speaker 4: to do there are their sort of I.

866
00:58:09,093 --> 00:58:13,373
Speaker 5: Call it the Royal Society campaign that was between largely

867
00:58:13,413 --> 00:58:18,293
Speaker 5: between twenty sixteen and twenty nineteen, and that campaign was

868
00:58:18,373 --> 00:58:22,773
Speaker 5: not a risk assessment. They were not required to do

869
00:58:22,813 --> 00:58:24,333
Speaker 5: a process of risk assessment.

870
00:58:24,613 --> 00:58:25,653
Speaker 4: The campaign was.

871
00:58:25,653 --> 00:58:29,653
Speaker 5: Desired to open up the conversation and the discussions on

872
00:58:30,333 --> 00:58:33,653
Speaker 5: gene edited techniques and organisms and to help us talk

873
00:58:33,693 --> 00:58:37,413
Speaker 5: about the benefits. And so when we were submitting to

874
00:58:37,453 --> 00:58:40,933
Speaker 5: the gene Technology Bill, it occurred to us that the

875
00:58:40,973 --> 00:58:45,253
Speaker 5: policy formulation process was so bad and that then became

876
00:58:45,733 --> 00:58:50,693
Speaker 5: a large article which we called the hijacking of democracy

877
00:58:50,733 --> 00:58:55,373
Speaker 5: the Case of Gene Technology Regulatory Reform, because what we

878
00:58:55,413 --> 00:58:58,813
Speaker 5: could see is that is the Royal Society did not

879
00:58:58,933 --> 00:59:01,213
Speaker 5: do any form of risk assessment. And then at the

880
00:59:01,293 --> 00:59:04,253
Speaker 5: end of this all their lovely look what we can

881
00:59:04,333 --> 00:59:09,653
Speaker 5: do process, they did a recommendations for law Chaine and

882
00:59:09,733 --> 00:59:13,173
Speaker 5: so that their recommendations for law change were what was

883
00:59:13,253 --> 00:59:17,933
Speaker 5: grabbed by the Harnessing Biotech Manifesto by the National Party

884
00:59:18,173 --> 00:59:20,773
Speaker 5: and then that was what was put into the regulatory

885
00:59:20,813 --> 00:59:26,173
Speaker 5: impact statement. So we have policy light policy that didn't

886
00:59:26,173 --> 00:59:30,893
Speaker 5: do the scientific robust analysis, didn't do the economic analysis,

887
00:59:31,013 --> 00:59:35,013
Speaker 5: didn't do a cost benefit analysis. We know that they

888
00:59:35,053 --> 00:59:41,613
Speaker 5: could turn around tomorrow and start gene editing Romoa Maori species,

889
00:59:42,053 --> 00:59:45,053
Speaker 5: but if they didn't it didn't result in a protein,

890
00:59:45,213 --> 00:59:48,213
Speaker 5: they wouldn't have to declare to Maori what they'd done.

891
00:59:48,493 --> 00:59:50,733
Speaker 5: But then we have that sneaky little problem of gene

892
00:59:50,773 --> 00:59:54,493
Speaker 5: flow into the environment. So Maori would not have any knowledge,

893
00:59:54,973 --> 00:59:58,253
Speaker 5: any control. But it's also the same for our food.

894
00:59:59,213 --> 01:00:03,293
Speaker 5: The food that we export from New Zealand, all those

895
01:00:03,373 --> 01:00:08,573
Speaker 5: exporters that rely on the clean green, that rely on

896
01:00:08,613 --> 01:00:11,973
Speaker 5: that trustworthy basis that we can say it's not GMO,

897
01:00:12,493 --> 01:00:16,533
Speaker 5: would now have to go through a really expensive process

898
01:00:16,573 --> 01:00:21,213
Speaker 5: of verification. And we know that the margins on on.

899
01:00:21,613 --> 01:00:23,493
Speaker 4: Food can be very tight.

900
01:00:23,933 --> 01:00:29,293
Speaker 5: So we could see a decline in export product because

901
01:00:29,893 --> 01:00:33,773
Speaker 5: the export the foreign export markets knew we had we

902
01:00:33,893 --> 01:00:37,653
Speaker 5: had run the race to the bottom, We had become

903
01:00:38,453 --> 01:00:43,053
Speaker 5: most possibly one of the weakest regulatory jurisdictions in the world.

904
01:00:43,373 --> 01:00:45,293
Speaker 4: If this bill would be passed.

905
01:00:45,333 --> 01:00:50,933
Speaker 2: And the Europeans in particular, I understand are will hold

906
01:00:50,933 --> 01:00:53,053
Speaker 2: a much higher higher barrier.

907
01:00:54,613 --> 01:00:55,973
Speaker 4: Yes, and they do.

908
01:00:56,293 --> 01:00:59,773
Speaker 5: And they they've also got the precautionary principle in their legislation.

909
01:01:00,333 --> 01:01:04,813
Speaker 5: They don't they're already doing things that we're not doing.

910
01:01:04,853 --> 01:01:09,453
Speaker 5: They say we will not have glycosytes breid on crops,

911
01:01:09,493 --> 01:01:14,333
Speaker 5: whereas New Zealand has no restrictions in that way. And

912
01:01:14,373 --> 01:01:20,093
Speaker 5: so even though they've got similar legislation, which is concerning

913
01:01:20,093 --> 01:01:23,813
Speaker 5: what they call new breeding new genomic techniques, so the

914
01:01:23,893 --> 01:01:26,453
Speaker 5: Europeans are a little bit more transparent than us. They

915
01:01:26,493 --> 01:01:30,773
Speaker 5: call them new genomic techniques, whereas we nebulously call them

916
01:01:30,813 --> 01:01:33,093
Speaker 5: new breeding techniques, so that we don't actually know what

917
01:01:33,093 --> 01:01:34,853
Speaker 5: the heck we're talking about, because anything could be a

918
01:01:34,893 --> 01:01:38,933
Speaker 5: new breeding technique. So their legislation has been held up

919
01:01:39,013 --> 01:01:42,933
Speaker 5: because they've got all these questions around transparency and traceability,

920
01:01:43,293 --> 01:01:45,053
Speaker 5: where we're not doing any of that.

921
01:01:45,533 --> 01:01:48,053
Speaker 2: Well, that's where it came to the Green Editing Bill

922
01:01:48,133 --> 01:01:51,853
Speaker 2: came to the fore from my perspective was that when

923
01:01:51,893 --> 01:01:54,933
Speaker 2: once we learned that they would not have to identify

924
01:01:55,613 --> 01:02:02,973
Speaker 2: any gene clangers in food in supermarkets, then we lost

925
01:02:03,013 --> 01:02:06,573
Speaker 2: control of what we eat. And that's and that's patently obvious.

926
01:02:09,173 --> 01:02:11,733
Speaker 2: I guess it's time to go back to a basic

927
01:02:11,813 --> 01:02:15,653
Speaker 2: or two. What is their purpose in wanting to do

928
01:02:15,693 --> 01:02:18,373
Speaker 2: this in the first place, Why is the why is

929
01:02:18,413 --> 01:02:20,733
Speaker 2: the government so involved in it?

930
01:02:22,053 --> 01:02:26,853
Speaker 5: So they've identified that the current legislation is too strict

931
01:02:26,973 --> 01:02:30,093
Speaker 5: and they want the legislation to be less strict. And

932
01:02:30,213 --> 01:02:33,573
Speaker 5: basically they admit this in the problem definition.

933
01:02:33,173 --> 01:02:36,213
Speaker 2: For what reason? So what do they wanted to be

934
01:02:36,293 --> 01:02:36,773
Speaker 2: less strict?

935
01:02:37,533 --> 01:02:42,213
Speaker 5: So what we've seen in the last decade is increasing

936
01:02:42,413 --> 01:02:47,933
Speaker 5: numbers of businesses and scientists speaking up about the fact

937
01:02:47,973 --> 01:02:53,733
Speaker 5: that the has NO Act is too restrictive. What we've

938
01:02:53,893 --> 01:02:57,413
Speaker 5: failed to understand and what has not been clear to

939
01:02:57,573 --> 01:03:01,853
Speaker 5: farmers or the public. Most of those people speaking up

940
01:03:02,333 --> 01:03:09,333
Speaker 5: have themselves by the financial investments, or they're biotech lobbyists,

941
01:03:09,373 --> 01:03:13,413
Speaker 5: such as you know William Roliston as a biotechnology lobbyist

942
01:03:13,453 --> 01:03:16,213
Speaker 5: for example, he puts I'm a farmer hat on but

943
01:03:16,413 --> 01:03:20,773
Speaker 5: his his work over the last sort of decades it's

944
01:03:20,813 --> 01:03:24,013
Speaker 5: shown that he really is very focused on biotechnology.

945
01:03:25,173 --> 01:03:26,693
Speaker 2: His name at me again, I didn't catch.

946
01:03:26,533 --> 01:03:27,933
Speaker 4: It, William Rolliston.

947
01:03:29,253 --> 01:03:33,413
Speaker 5: And then we have scientists that come from the Crown

948
01:03:33,533 --> 01:03:38,053
Speaker 5: research institutes such as Plant and Food Research or AG Research.

949
01:03:38,533 --> 01:03:42,733
Speaker 5: And so what their problem is, and it harts back

950
01:03:42,773 --> 01:03:47,053
Speaker 5: to what we were talking about earlier, is their funding

951
01:03:47,573 --> 01:03:52,733
Speaker 5: has become tightened and tightened and titans around them needing

952
01:03:53,453 --> 01:03:57,493
Speaker 5: to produce patents and ip and so they're now they're

953
01:03:57,573 --> 01:04:04,493
Speaker 5: now depending on royalties for the funding to continue as

954
01:04:04,533 --> 01:04:09,133
Speaker 5: part of their investment strategy. They're publicly paid institute, but

955
01:04:09,213 --> 01:04:11,693
Speaker 5: they are more and more depending on the royalties from

956
01:04:11,773 --> 01:04:15,253
Speaker 5: their investments as a way of keeping themselves going. As

957
01:04:15,293 --> 01:04:19,453
Speaker 5: the government titans the what they can actually apply for.

958
01:04:19,973 --> 01:04:25,293
Speaker 5: And rather shockingly part of this, Judith Collins' latest move

959
01:04:26,053 --> 01:04:28,973
Speaker 5: is we're seeing the shift to the fact that the

960
01:04:29,053 --> 01:04:33,093
Speaker 5: scientists would own their own patents. Now this has happened

961
01:04:33,093 --> 01:04:37,053
Speaker 5: in America and it hasn't happened. I thought it actually

962
01:04:37,133 --> 01:04:41,373
Speaker 5: was quite quite excellent that the institutes would own the patents.

963
01:04:41,413 --> 01:04:42,853
Speaker 4: Still, but we're so.

964
01:04:42,973 --> 01:04:47,853
Speaker 5: Financialized, so for example, AG research can't freely go out

965
01:04:48,693 --> 01:04:51,533
Speaker 5: or plant in food research. They can't freely go out

966
01:04:51,693 --> 01:04:55,893
Speaker 5: and undertake public good research. So AG research can't look

967
01:04:55,933 --> 01:04:59,813
Speaker 5: at for a long term funding. They can do short

968
01:04:59,893 --> 01:05:02,133
Speaker 5: term funding that they can fit in when they have

969
01:05:02,173 --> 01:05:03,813
Speaker 5: a little tiny bit of slack.

970
01:05:04,213 --> 01:05:05,413
Speaker 4: But the idea of.

971
01:05:05,333 --> 01:05:11,733
Speaker 5: Looking at a five year, twenty million dollar project to

972
01:05:11,773 --> 01:05:16,893
Speaker 5: prevent weeds, to look at the basic sides for lots

973
01:05:16,893 --> 01:05:21,293
Speaker 5: of different robotics technologies, or to look at integrated pest

974
01:05:21,373 --> 01:05:25,613
Speaker 5: management for weeds, because they know that there is so much,

975
01:05:27,253 --> 01:05:31,813
Speaker 5: so much herbicide resistance in glyco state, there's increasing herbicide

976
01:05:31,853 --> 01:05:37,333
Speaker 5: resistance and all the other other herbicides. But if they

977
01:05:37,373 --> 01:05:40,573
Speaker 5: were just looking at public good work, they couldn't.

978
01:05:40,573 --> 01:05:42,373
Speaker 4: They've got to have IP at the end of it.

979
01:05:42,493 --> 01:05:45,253
Speaker 5: Similarly, plant and food research, they can't go and look

980
01:05:45,253 --> 01:05:48,933
Speaker 5: at the best nutrition for babies in New Zealand because

981
01:05:48,933 --> 01:05:51,893
Speaker 5: there's no IP. If they start looking at what are

982
01:05:52,533 --> 01:05:57,253
Speaker 5: the optimum levels for B vitamins and A A vitamins

983
01:05:57,293 --> 01:06:00,933
Speaker 5: for adolescents or you know, to stop to prevent mental health,

984
01:06:00,933 --> 01:06:03,293
Speaker 5: they would be outside their funding scrope because there's no

985
01:06:03,653 --> 01:06:07,533
Speaker 5: innovation at the end of it. Because it's a generic

986
01:06:07,613 --> 01:06:11,093
Speaker 5: vitamin or minus. All can't be patented. So then they're

987
01:06:11,213 --> 01:06:14,093
Speaker 5: stuck in this cycle and that's why they end up.

988
01:06:14,653 --> 01:06:17,453
Speaker 5: This is why this is my opinion, is that they

989
01:06:17,533 --> 01:06:21,653
Speaker 5: end up talking about genetics all the time because if

990
01:06:21,653 --> 01:06:26,173
Speaker 5: you gene edit, you can then patent that that knowledge

991
01:06:26,533 --> 01:06:29,573
Speaker 5: and then continue and this is the treadmill that they're

992
01:06:29,613 --> 01:06:34,293
Speaker 5: really on. Doctor Elvira Demesis explained that when you're a

993
01:06:34,373 --> 01:06:38,933
Speaker 5: biotechnology science, it's a very very narrow discipline, so it's

994
01:06:38,973 --> 01:06:41,973
Speaker 5: you can't look out and do basic science in other areas,

995
01:06:42,893 --> 01:06:46,773
Speaker 5: and so that then the more biotech scientists you get

996
01:06:46,853 --> 01:06:51,333
Speaker 5: in for example, at research again you're you're limiting what

997
01:06:51,493 --> 01:06:54,653
Speaker 5: you're then going to apply for funding for. So you

998
01:06:54,733 --> 01:06:57,493
Speaker 5: get this sort of this treadmill of this sort of

999
01:06:57,653 --> 01:07:00,653
Speaker 5: area of science, rather than, for example, if they had

1000
01:07:00,773 --> 01:07:04,133
Speaker 5: molecular biologists working there that had a broader scope.

1001
01:07:04,173 --> 01:07:07,933
Speaker 2: For example, personal question, this is your specialty, this is

1002
01:07:07,973 --> 01:07:12,013
Speaker 2: your dealing with this sort of thing. How difficult was it?

1003
01:07:12,533 --> 01:07:15,533
Speaker 2: How different and how difficult might this have been to

1004
01:07:15,653 --> 01:07:19,973
Speaker 2: put together? And I'm talking the article that you wrote

1005
01:07:20,013 --> 01:07:24,053
Speaker 2: that runs nine pages because of what I conceive as

1006
01:07:24,133 --> 01:07:28,893
Speaker 2: a confusion for you. How difficult was it to put

1007
01:07:28,933 --> 01:07:31,893
Speaker 2: it all together, to structure it?

1008
01:07:31,893 --> 01:07:35,373
Speaker 4: It's really hard. So I'm a sociologist.

1009
01:07:35,453 --> 01:07:36,133
Speaker 2: I feel better.

1010
01:07:37,893 --> 01:07:39,813
Speaker 4: I do not have a science degree.

1011
01:07:41,093 --> 01:07:45,053
Speaker 5: Everything that is a scientific references run past someone with

1012
01:07:45,133 --> 01:07:46,533
Speaker 5: a science degree.

1013
01:07:46,933 --> 01:07:47,973
Speaker 4: We produced.

1014
01:07:48,053 --> 01:07:52,053
Speaker 5: So this is the first paper when powerful agencies hijack

1015
01:07:52,133 --> 01:07:56,533
Speaker 5: democratic systems. Part one the case of gene technology regulatory reform.

1016
01:07:56,973 --> 01:07:59,693
Speaker 5: That was meant to take a month, It took two

1017
01:07:59,693 --> 01:08:02,653
Speaker 5: and a half months. One chapter of that was meant

1018
01:08:02,693 --> 01:08:05,653
Speaker 5: to be on science system that turned into a second

1019
01:08:06,173 --> 01:08:10,213
Speaker 5: forty to fifty page paper to the case of Science

1020
01:08:10,293 --> 01:08:17,173
Speaker 5: System Reform, and these took four months to produce, and

1021
01:08:17,213 --> 01:08:21,373
Speaker 5: then this article in the Daily Telegraph has taken about

1022
01:08:21,413 --> 01:08:24,573
Speaker 5: a week to two weeks to produce, and of course

1023
01:08:25,013 --> 01:08:28,653
Speaker 5: it's come off the back of our presentation to the

1024
01:08:28,733 --> 01:08:32,533
Speaker 5: Select Committee, where I only presented really to one Health

1025
01:08:32,533 --> 01:08:36,453
Speaker 5: Committee member on this. And you'll be able to find

1026
01:08:36,453 --> 01:08:40,733
Speaker 5: all the links on the PSCR dot org dot nz website, and.

1027
01:08:40,733 --> 01:08:41,373
Speaker 4: So it is.

1028
01:08:41,453 --> 01:08:46,373
Speaker 5: It is really hard because the story of when complex

1029
01:08:46,453 --> 01:08:52,813
Speaker 5: systems go awry is normally a very very very difficult

1030
01:08:53,173 --> 01:08:57,493
Speaker 5: thing to understand. So when we've we've made the complaint

1031
01:08:57,573 --> 01:09:01,693
Speaker 5: to the Ombardsman, PSGR have made the complaint to the Ombardsman,

1032
01:09:01,773 --> 01:09:04,373
Speaker 5: and we've said that because we're concerned that the actions

1033
01:09:04,373 --> 01:09:07,933
Speaker 5: of MV over time may be contrary to public law,

1034
01:09:08,453 --> 01:09:13,453
Speaker 5: they may be found to be unreasonable, unjust and improperly discriminatory,

1035
01:09:13,493 --> 01:09:15,813
Speaker 5: and we believe mb was wrong to take on the

1036
01:09:15,853 --> 01:09:19,093
Speaker 5: powers of policy and law formulation for this new gene

1037
01:09:19,093 --> 01:09:24,493
Speaker 5: technology regulations, for the policy and for the bill. So

1038
01:09:24,573 --> 01:09:29,093
Speaker 5: we think what's happened is that they're directly undermining public

1039
01:09:29,173 --> 01:09:33,013
Speaker 5: law conventions to get this true and what we think

1040
01:09:33,053 --> 01:09:39,253
Speaker 5: that the evidence suggests maladministration, so talking to the complex

1041
01:09:39,333 --> 01:09:43,013
Speaker 5: muddle and the mess of all this, and so maladministration

1042
01:09:43,173 --> 01:09:46,293
Speaker 5: is conduct which is capable of causing injustice and is

1043
01:09:46,333 --> 01:09:51,533
Speaker 5: possibly systemic in that it might foreseeably continue if left unremedied.

1044
01:09:52,133 --> 01:09:55,693
Speaker 5: And maladministration has also been referred to as usually something

1045
01:09:55,773 --> 01:09:57,693
Speaker 5: short of outright corruption.

1046
01:09:58,013 --> 01:09:59,013
Speaker 4: But's still wrong.

1047
01:10:00,053 --> 01:10:04,453
Speaker 5: So that extends beyond mere illegality to more generally framed

1048
01:10:04,573 --> 01:10:09,333
Speaker 5: allegations of injustice. And here I'm quoting Joseph as well.

1049
01:10:09,733 --> 01:10:13,053
Speaker 5: So what we've seen is systemic. We've seen it from

1050
01:10:13,733 --> 01:10:16,933
Speaker 5: the creation of the problem definition, we've seen it from

1051
01:10:16,973 --> 01:10:20,573
Speaker 5: the absence of using the scientific evidence. We've seen it

1052
01:10:20,613 --> 01:10:22,973
Speaker 5: in the minister telling the officials what to do. But

1053
01:10:23,053 --> 01:10:26,333
Speaker 5: of course when we complain to the ombardsmen, the ombardsmen

1054
01:10:26,373 --> 01:10:29,773
Speaker 5: are saying, well, I can't investigate the actions of officials,

1055
01:10:29,813 --> 01:10:36,093
Speaker 5: but there is evidence that ministers, while concerned with policy formulation,

1056
01:10:36,653 --> 01:10:41,973
Speaker 5: are not exempt from ombardsman investigations. However, the ombudsman's pretending

1057
01:10:42,133 --> 01:10:46,213
Speaker 5: that it can't. You know, the fact that a decision

1058
01:10:46,253 --> 01:10:48,013
Speaker 5: is taken by a minister does not mean it is

1059
01:10:48,053 --> 01:10:53,333
Speaker 5: a policy decision and immune from Ombudsman investigation. So ministerial

1060
01:10:53,773 --> 01:10:58,133
Speaker 5: decisions are matters of administration, So it's the ombudsman wants

1061
01:10:58,173 --> 01:11:00,413
Speaker 5: to step back. They want to say there's no personal

1062
01:11:00,573 --> 01:11:08,013
Speaker 5: interest in this muddle of fast tracking, this muddle of

1063
01:11:08,373 --> 01:11:13,013
Speaker 5: failing to consult with the public, this muddle of not

1064
01:11:13,253 --> 01:11:19,053
Speaker 5: doing any scientific risk assessment to understand anything about all

1065
01:11:19,133 --> 01:11:23,293
Speaker 5: these GMOs that would be the gene edited organisms, for example,

1066
01:11:23,373 --> 01:11:26,213
Speaker 5: and there's many more example. I'm being quite limited just

1067
01:11:26,253 --> 01:11:29,933
Speaker 5: talking about gene edited organisms that don't produce proteins because

1068
01:11:29,933 --> 01:11:32,133
Speaker 5: it's sort of easier to understand.

1069
01:11:33,533 --> 01:11:38,613
Speaker 4: But there's other issues that are sort of ear tag.

1070
01:11:38,453 --> 01:11:41,773
Speaker 5: To not be in it, such as SDN derived sort

1071
01:11:41,773 --> 01:11:46,093
Speaker 5: of their sort of like blueprints for fast tracking gene editing,

1072
01:11:46,133 --> 01:11:49,213
Speaker 5: and Jack Herneman's really good at talking about this, and

1073
01:11:49,333 --> 01:11:53,773
Speaker 5: so it's sort of like MBA has said, we're going

1074
01:11:53,853 --> 01:11:56,373
Speaker 5: to pretend we're doing the science when we're not because

1075
01:11:56,373 --> 01:12:01,533
Speaker 5: they don't actually have the scientific expertise inside mb and

1076
01:12:01,573 --> 01:12:04,253
Speaker 5: so what the bill has created is this massive pletuau

1077
01:12:04,573 --> 01:12:08,093
Speaker 5: of uncertainty, and that primary Act, the bill that we're

1078
01:12:08,093 --> 01:12:12,973
Speaker 5: looking it is just fluid, so it's uncontainable, and good

1079
01:12:13,053 --> 01:12:16,413
Speaker 5: legislation is meant to create like a set of rails

1080
01:12:16,453 --> 01:12:21,413
Speaker 5: for the officials. But this legislation, because so much is

1081
01:12:21,453 --> 01:12:26,853
Speaker 5: outside the regulatory purview, the regulator can't look at that

1082
01:12:27,293 --> 01:12:31,173
Speaker 5: stuff that's being structured outside of the legislation. But the

1083
01:12:31,573 --> 01:12:36,653
Speaker 5: regulator also won't have inquisitorial powers. They forced the regulator

1084
01:12:36,733 --> 01:12:39,613
Speaker 5: to only look at what other regulators are also looking at.

1085
01:12:39,693 --> 01:12:44,133
Speaker 5: And so during covert when all the regulators had the

1086
01:12:44,173 --> 01:12:49,333
Speaker 5: same lockstep procedure of only really looking at fires or

1087
01:12:49,333 --> 01:12:51,773
Speaker 5: whatever fires I wanted to declare, they'd look at and

1088
01:12:51,773 --> 01:12:53,693
Speaker 5: then they wouldn't even tell us what they were looking at.

1089
01:12:54,053 --> 01:12:59,173
Speaker 5: So we've got this regulatory secrecy that means the regulators

1090
01:12:59,173 --> 01:13:02,213
Speaker 5: aren't forced to look at the same the latest scientific

1091
01:13:02,253 --> 01:13:05,973
Speaker 5: literature on risk. Whereas at the same time you have

1092
01:13:06,093 --> 01:13:12,533
Speaker 5: the hypocrisy where we know that the corporations, the developers

1093
01:13:13,453 --> 01:13:16,413
Speaker 5: are going to be they're going to be using artificial

1094
01:13:16,533 --> 01:13:20,813
Speaker 5: intelligence to scale up, they're going to be doing everything

1095
01:13:20,893 --> 01:13:24,013
Speaker 5: they can to get more and more patents released, to

1096
01:13:24,053 --> 01:13:26,653
Speaker 5: get more and more money into that corporation, whereas we

1097
01:13:26,733 --> 01:13:32,773
Speaker 5: don't see similar powers of the regulator from conception even

1098
01:13:32,853 --> 01:13:38,133
Speaker 5: trying to keep up. And when you're a government regulator.

1099
01:13:38,213 --> 01:13:42,053
Speaker 5: As I said before, it's a political space, so they

1100
01:13:42,293 --> 01:13:45,853
Speaker 5: are trying to navigate keeping everyone happy. But it's also

1101
01:13:45,893 --> 01:13:49,453
Speaker 5: a gray area. So when you know, we could talk

1102
01:13:49,453 --> 01:13:54,893
Speaker 5: about fluoride. So when fluoride is toxic to me at

1103
01:13:54,893 --> 01:13:58,293
Speaker 5: a certain dose, it's completely different from when it's toxic

1104
01:13:58,333 --> 01:14:02,173
Speaker 5: to a five year old at a certain dose. So

1105
01:14:02,213 --> 01:14:05,893
Speaker 5: we need to understand that we have different ages where

1106
01:14:05,893 --> 01:14:10,053
Speaker 5: we're vulnerable. We're vulnerable, different genes are vulnerable to different

1107
01:14:10,653 --> 01:14:13,093
Speaker 5: because they've got different pathways of vulnerability.

1108
01:14:13,653 --> 01:14:15,693
Speaker 4: And so regulators need to.

1109
01:14:15,613 --> 01:14:20,933
Speaker 5: Be able to be to inquire about all the different

1110
01:14:21,013 --> 01:14:25,453
Speaker 5: gray areas that mean that what they're doing is never

1111
01:14:25,493 --> 01:14:26,293
Speaker 5: going to be certain.

1112
01:14:26,373 --> 01:14:28,173
Speaker 4: It's never going to be one hundred percent.

1113
01:14:27,933 --> 01:14:30,693
Speaker 5: Certain, which is why the precaution principle is so important.

1114
01:14:31,373 --> 01:14:35,093
Speaker 2: Look, is this so complicated that your average partner is

1115
01:14:35,613 --> 01:14:37,453
Speaker 2: never going to come to grips with it.

1116
01:14:38,813 --> 01:14:43,973
Speaker 5: The trick about anything that's complicated is to start talking,

1117
01:14:44,893 --> 01:14:50,013
Speaker 5: because otherwise it's ta do. Otherwise we're no better than Germany,

1118
01:14:50,613 --> 01:14:54,013
Speaker 5: you know, before World War Two, Because and that is

1119
01:14:54,053 --> 01:14:58,613
Speaker 5: what censorship does to us. As a sociologist, I've always

1120
01:14:58,733 --> 01:15:04,133
Speaker 5: been fascinated by undone science, and I guess the work

1121
01:15:04,173 --> 01:15:08,653
Speaker 5: I do with PSA is a lot about learn to

1122
01:15:08,653 --> 01:15:13,133
Speaker 5: talk about the things in our society, the man made

1123
01:15:13,213 --> 01:15:17,613
Speaker 5: things that we want to use them and not get

1124
01:15:17,653 --> 01:15:20,013
Speaker 5: sick from using them, but if they actually do make

1125
01:15:20,093 --> 01:15:24,533
Speaker 5: us sick, we've got to have enough of a government

1126
01:15:24,613 --> 01:15:28,253
Speaker 5: that has enough of a backbone and enough of the

1127
01:15:29,093 --> 01:15:33,653
Speaker 5: enough ethical pathways that it will actually research those technologies

1128
01:15:33,733 --> 01:15:37,733
Speaker 5: and make sure that we're safe. So we have to

1129
01:15:37,853 --> 01:15:39,813
Speaker 5: because we have to do this for our babies. We

1130
01:15:39,933 --> 01:15:42,973
Speaker 5: have to talk do this for our rivers, our drinking water,

1131
01:15:43,093 --> 01:15:47,893
Speaker 5: our fresh water. So it's about having that courage around

1132
01:15:47,933 --> 01:15:50,933
Speaker 5: the dinner table, you know, you know, at the picnic

1133
01:15:51,013 --> 01:15:55,813
Speaker 5: to say, you know what I think. Maybe MR and

1134
01:15:55,853 --> 01:16:01,173
Speaker 5: A vaccines aren't safe because we never saw the placebo

1135
01:16:01,373 --> 01:16:05,373
Speaker 5: for them. We never saw how it impacted a really

1136
01:16:05,453 --> 01:16:09,093
Speaker 5: healthy person, whereas how it impacted a sick person.

1137
01:16:10,853 --> 01:16:12,293
Speaker 4: For example, we need.

1138
01:16:12,093 --> 01:16:15,893
Speaker 5: Fluoride to be tested by the EPA, not by the

1139
01:16:15,973 --> 01:16:19,173
Speaker 5: chief Scientists for the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet,

1140
01:16:19,253 --> 01:16:22,173
Speaker 5: who doesn't ever do a methodology and show that it

1141
01:16:22,253 --> 01:16:26,573
Speaker 5: was a methods based assessment of fluoride safety. We need

1142
01:16:27,333 --> 01:16:32,573
Speaker 5: GMOs to be assessed for safety by an agency that's

1143
01:16:32,613 --> 01:16:36,493
Speaker 5: not the agency responsible for economic growth, so we can

1144
01:16:36,533 --> 01:16:40,933
Speaker 5: start normalizing that. We can say glat to say has

1145
01:16:41,013 --> 01:16:44,373
Speaker 5: been found in all these offshore court cases to cause

1146
01:16:44,613 --> 01:16:49,533
Speaker 5: cancer in the people that used glasses regularly. We can

1147
01:16:49,613 --> 01:16:53,893
Speaker 5: talk about what evidence came out in the discovery process

1148
01:16:54,453 --> 01:16:57,613
Speaker 5: in these court cases. In the rest of the world

1149
01:16:58,533 --> 01:17:01,213
Speaker 5: was if we look at our own New Zealand EPA,

1150
01:17:01,533 --> 01:17:05,653
Speaker 5: their own methodology document doesn't give them the powers.

1151
01:17:05,293 --> 01:17:07,333
Speaker 4: To look at the discovery process.

1152
01:17:07,813 --> 01:17:10,733
Speaker 5: It doesn't give them the powers to inquire into the

1153
01:17:10,813 --> 01:17:15,133
Speaker 5: latest scientific evidence on whether a chemical might harm a

1154
01:17:15,213 --> 01:17:18,853
Speaker 5: hormone or a baby at a certain level that is

1155
01:17:18,893 --> 01:17:22,613
Speaker 5: different from what the regulatory science that is supplied by

1156
01:17:22,613 --> 01:17:23,493
Speaker 5: the corporations.

1157
01:17:23,773 --> 01:17:26,413
Speaker 4: So we have to have to we have to have

1158
01:17:26,493 --> 01:17:28,133
Speaker 4: the courage to.

1159
01:17:28,493 --> 01:17:33,173
Speaker 5: Think differently and speak differently and recognize that uncertainty or

1160
01:17:33,293 --> 01:17:36,253
Speaker 5: caution is something we can all talk about. Well, we

1161
01:17:36,293 --> 01:17:39,333
Speaker 5: all know that we don't let the toddler run into

1162
01:17:39,413 --> 01:17:44,213
Speaker 5: the ocean because we know that's harmful, so we have.

1163
01:17:44,453 --> 01:17:45,213
Speaker 4: But we stopped that.

1164
01:17:45,533 --> 01:17:48,613
Speaker 5: But it could be okay, The toddler might be okay.

1165
01:17:49,493 --> 01:17:52,173
Speaker 5: But it's that when do we start thinking about risk

1166
01:17:52,253 --> 01:17:55,893
Speaker 5: and how we how we i hope. I'm saying this

1167
01:17:55,973 --> 01:17:58,693
Speaker 5: reasonably clearly, but that the concept of risk is so

1168
01:17:58,813 --> 01:18:01,973
Speaker 5: different for everybody. But we need our scientists to have

1169
01:18:02,053 --> 01:18:05,293
Speaker 5: the scientific freedom to be able to understand that.

1170
01:18:06,213 --> 01:18:09,053
Speaker 2: Just wrap it up. Do you have a personal opinion

1171
01:18:09,053 --> 01:18:10,973
Speaker 2: on this should be prepared to express?

1172
01:18:11,453 --> 01:18:14,933
Speaker 5: Well, I guess as the author of the two papers

1173
01:18:15,013 --> 01:18:18,733
Speaker 5: I've co authored, the first one the Gene Technology Bill

1174
01:18:18,853 --> 01:18:25,453
Speaker 5: one with Elvira Domese. But my personal opinion is that, yeah,

1175
01:18:26,093 --> 01:18:30,333
Speaker 5: democracy is being short circuited right now. But my and

1176
01:18:30,373 --> 01:18:34,813
Speaker 5: my personal concern is that if the Ombardsman rejects this

1177
01:18:35,013 --> 01:18:39,653
Speaker 5: on the basic that there is no personal interest, even

1178
01:18:39,693 --> 01:18:43,213
Speaker 5: though all the members of PC are interested in this,

1179
01:18:43,773 --> 01:18:46,733
Speaker 5: even though it's very likely that it's in general it's

1180
01:18:46,733 --> 01:18:51,213
Speaker 5: of interest to the general public, my opinion is that

1181
01:18:51,253 --> 01:18:56,653
Speaker 5: we don't have anywhere else to go. And my opinion

1182
01:18:56,733 --> 01:18:59,973
Speaker 5: is starting to be is envy above the law? Is

1183
01:19:00,013 --> 01:19:04,213
Speaker 5: the attorney general above the law? That's I'm starting to

1184
01:19:04,333 --> 01:19:08,333
Speaker 5: question that, which is the rule of law? Democracy only works.

1185
01:19:08,533 --> 01:19:11,053
Speaker 4: The rule of law works. But if we can't actually.

1186
01:19:11,333 --> 01:19:20,013
Speaker 5: Explore when ministers short circuit policy because they you know,

1187
01:19:20,133 --> 01:19:22,053
Speaker 5: they they're on the direction of the minister, we do

1188
01:19:22,133 --> 01:19:26,173
Speaker 5: not consider these options. But you can't investigate the actions

1189
01:19:26,173 --> 01:19:28,813
Speaker 5: of those ministers. What do we what are we left with?

1190
01:19:29,013 --> 01:19:31,813
Speaker 5: Are we left with the democracy or is it as

1191
01:19:32,013 --> 01:19:34,333
Speaker 5: Butler and Parma say, is it just authoritarian?

1192
01:19:34,333 --> 01:19:37,373
Speaker 4: Are we we open to the despots?

1193
01:19:37,653 --> 01:19:40,573
Speaker 2: I don't know, Well, the despots exist on both sides

1194
01:19:40,613 --> 01:19:44,773
Speaker 2: or they can. So it's not it's not picking not

1195
01:19:44,853 --> 01:19:47,853
Speaker 2: choosing one team over the other. It's a it's a

1196
01:19:47,933 --> 01:19:48,853
Speaker 2: protection factor.

1197
01:19:49,413 --> 01:19:51,773
Speaker 5: And so one of the biggest things I would ask

1198
01:19:51,893 --> 01:19:55,333
Speaker 5: with this bill is that it's a conscience vote because

1199
01:19:55,373 --> 01:19:59,453
Speaker 5: we we're seeing what what control does the party whip

1200
01:19:59,573 --> 01:20:04,173
Speaker 5: have over what whoever is and who.

1201
01:20:04,213 --> 01:20:05,853
Speaker 4: Is informing the party whip?

1202
01:20:06,173 --> 01:20:09,333
Speaker 5: This is this is if this is if we're voting

1203
01:20:09,333 --> 01:20:12,293
Speaker 5: in our individual and peace, but they have to vote

1204
01:20:12,373 --> 01:20:15,653
Speaker 5: look step by a party with that we don't know

1205
01:20:15,693 --> 01:20:19,533
Speaker 5: any that is outside Official Information Act. And then if

1206
01:20:19,573 --> 01:20:24,213
Speaker 5: we have the Attorney General with six ministerial hats, who

1207
01:20:24,253 --> 01:20:26,813
Speaker 5: only needs to be in cabinet with three other people

1208
01:20:27,453 --> 01:20:31,653
Speaker 5: to pass legislation, I mean, the centralization of powers shows

1209
01:20:31,693 --> 01:20:39,053
Speaker 5: that New Zealand is extraordinarily vulnerable to not being a democracy.

1210
01:20:39,173 --> 01:20:43,133
Speaker 5: And so and we've seen, you know, people stop writing

1211
01:20:43,173 --> 01:20:49,293
Speaker 5: blogs recently because they're getting huge pressure from the dominant politically.

1212
01:20:49,333 --> 01:20:52,253
Speaker 2: There has to be there has to be some action

1213
01:20:52,373 --> 01:20:52,573
Speaker 2: on that.

1214
01:20:53,293 --> 01:20:56,293
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I have I have with PHR.

1215
01:20:56,773 --> 01:21:03,213
Speaker 5: I've emailed our most eminent public law this is constitutional

1216
01:21:03,213 --> 01:21:07,093
Speaker 5: and administrative law experts, to say, please can you provide

1217
01:21:07,133 --> 01:21:10,293
Speaker 5: I'm not a lawyer, I'm associatedogists and I'm trying to

1218
01:21:10,373 --> 01:21:13,053
Speaker 5: talk about law and I'm trying to say the Onwardsman

1219
01:21:13,933 --> 01:21:15,573
Speaker 5: on behalf of the PSGR.

1220
01:21:15,333 --> 01:21:18,293
Speaker 4: Please you need to investigate this. This is a very

1221
01:21:18,373 --> 01:21:19,053
Speaker 4: big issue.

1222
01:21:19,093 --> 01:21:22,813
Speaker 5: We've documented this in fifty pages, and the Ombardsman's just

1223
01:21:22,853 --> 01:21:25,133
Speaker 5: wanting to say, well, it's no personal interest to PSH

1224
01:21:25,693 --> 01:21:30,893
Speaker 5: failing to engage with this greatest sort of I would

1225
01:21:30,893 --> 01:21:35,253
Speaker 5: say obligation to ensure that MB does not keep doing this.

1226
01:21:36,093 --> 01:21:41,093
Speaker 5: And I'm trying to find anyone who has expert expertise

1227
01:21:41,133 --> 01:21:45,213
Speaker 5: in constitutional or administrative law to come back and support

1228
01:21:45,373 --> 01:21:48,933
Speaker 5: us in communicating and communications with the onwardsman.

1229
01:21:49,613 --> 01:21:53,573
Speaker 4: It's I think we're in extraordinarily precarious times.

1230
01:21:53,653 --> 01:21:56,293
Speaker 2: Later, well you won't. You won't get much of an

1231
01:21:56,333 --> 01:22:00,253
Speaker 2: argument out of me for that. So got to quote

1232
01:22:00,333 --> 01:22:05,533
Speaker 2: in conclusion with the paragraphs that you wrote new Zealand's

1233
01:22:05,893 --> 01:22:09,053
Speaker 2: mb is silent on what best practic this might mean

1234
01:22:09,173 --> 01:22:12,413
Speaker 2: in this rapidly advancing field because they haven't assessed it.

1235
01:22:13,373 --> 01:22:16,933
Speaker 2: The regulator and the Enforcement and Monitoring agency lack any

1236
01:22:17,133 --> 01:22:21,893
Speaker 2: obligation to keep abreast of industry developments, including the integration

1237
01:22:21,973 --> 01:22:25,373
Speaker 2: of artificial intelligence, which will further speed up development and

1238
01:22:25,413 --> 01:22:30,493
Speaker 2: release of gene editing technologies and organisms. In this world

1239
01:22:30,533 --> 01:22:34,133
Speaker 2: where the science is swiftly advancing, we should be able

1240
01:22:34,133 --> 01:22:37,173
Speaker 2: to ask why the case by case approach is currently

1241
01:22:37,213 --> 01:22:41,213
Speaker 2: considered to boo An unfortunate conflict of interest in the

1242
01:22:41,413 --> 01:22:45,813
Speaker 2: Select Committee process is that the Gene Technology Select Committee

1243
01:22:45,813 --> 01:22:52,373
Speaker 2: Report will be overseen and produced by MBIE. Mb letters

1244
01:22:52,373 --> 01:22:54,173
Speaker 2: we have written it in our sitting with the Ombudsmen

1245
01:22:54,213 --> 01:22:57,413
Speaker 2: of New Zealand. We know that there is a possibility

1246
01:22:57,413 --> 01:23:00,973
Speaker 2: that our complaint may be dismissed because firstly MBIE is

1247
01:23:01,013 --> 01:23:05,733
Speaker 2: a powerful agency and it will not appreciate being investigated.

1248
01:23:06,013 --> 01:23:09,613
Speaker 2: But also because this is a science thing. The science

1249
01:23:09,653 --> 01:23:13,213
Speaker 2: thing can boondoggle well meaning MPs and officials. It doesn't

1250
01:23:13,293 --> 01:23:18,253
Speaker 2: need to for people who don't have it, who haven't subscribed,

1251
01:23:18,933 --> 01:23:22,133
Speaker 2: where will they find this particular article.

1252
01:23:23,653 --> 01:23:26,453
Speaker 5: So this article is currently on the day in the

1253
01:23:26,533 --> 01:23:30,893
Speaker 5: Daily Telegraph dot co dot MZ. I believe, and it's

1254
01:23:30,933 --> 01:23:35,973
Speaker 5: called when the Economic Growth Agency captures biotech regulation.

1255
01:23:36,493 --> 01:23:38,173
Speaker 4: A serious question of science.

1256
01:23:38,933 --> 01:23:42,093
Speaker 5: And the reason I said a serious question of science

1257
01:23:42,213 --> 01:23:46,733
Speaker 5: is because when I was listening to the Oral Select

1258
01:23:46,773 --> 01:23:52,293
Speaker 5: Committee processes, all of the MB funded scientists and science

1259
01:23:52,413 --> 01:23:58,613
Speaker 5: organizations and the you know, the biotech investors kept talking

1260
01:23:58,653 --> 01:24:02,053
Speaker 5: and urging the Oral the Select Committee to be scientific

1261
01:24:02,133 --> 01:24:05,093
Speaker 5: and to follow good scientific process. But of course they've

1262
01:24:05,133 --> 01:24:08,573
Speaker 5: never declared that the science hadn't been done. So yes,

1263
01:24:08,613 --> 01:24:12,973
Speaker 5: So you can find on the Daily Telegraph, but also

1264
01:24:13,133 --> 01:24:15,893
Speaker 5: ps gr n Z p s g r n Z

1265
01:24:16,333 --> 01:24:17,973
Speaker 5: dot substack dot com.

1266
01:24:18,173 --> 01:24:19,453
Speaker 4: You'll find.

1267
01:24:21,053 --> 01:24:26,493
Speaker 5: You'll find links to psgr's work. And I think actually

1268
01:24:26,533 --> 01:24:29,933
Speaker 5: I may have put the first part first part of

1269
01:24:29,973 --> 01:24:34,013
Speaker 5: this article on my own personal substat j R b

1270
01:24:34,333 --> 01:24:38,573
Speaker 5: r u n I n g JR running dot substat

1271
01:24:38,573 --> 01:24:41,013
Speaker 5: dot com. But that's also you can search for Talking

1272
01:24:41,133 --> 01:24:43,773
Speaker 5: Risk on substack and find me Jody.

1273
01:24:44,013 --> 01:24:48,253
Speaker 2: We've gone twice the lenks I expected, but it's I

1274
01:24:48,253 --> 01:24:50,253
Speaker 2: think it's important, it's necessary, and I want to thank

1275
01:24:50,253 --> 01:24:53,973
Speaker 2: you for your time and the more power to more

1276
01:24:54,013 --> 01:24:54,813
Speaker 2: power to your work.

1277
01:24:55,493 --> 01:25:00,973
Speaker 5: I'm very grateful Laighton and psgr welcomes members associate members,

1278
01:25:01,413 --> 01:25:06,533
Speaker 5: members are scientists, members are not scientists. And I just really,

1279
01:25:06,573 --> 01:25:09,533
Speaker 5: really I thank you for having a coria because the

1280
01:25:09,653 --> 01:25:14,013
Speaker 5: science thing, as you said, it's a science thing that

1281
01:25:14,093 --> 01:25:19,893
Speaker 5: actually it's about good process. It's about trust, being trustworthy

1282
01:25:19,973 --> 01:25:23,853
Speaker 5: and accountable and fear and that's what democracy is. So

1283
01:25:24,013 --> 01:25:26,053
Speaker 5: this is we need to be able to talk about this.

1284
01:25:26,173 --> 01:25:29,733
Speaker 5: So I'm so grateful, thank you a pleasure.

1285
01:25:30,053 --> 01:25:32,053
Speaker 2: And I might just add, by the way that I've

1286
01:25:32,093 --> 01:25:34,813
Speaker 2: had to explain to well, I've tried to explain to

1287
01:25:34,853 --> 01:25:37,693
Speaker 2: a lot of people over a period of time that

1288
01:25:37,933 --> 01:25:42,053
Speaker 2: you don't have to be an economist to understand economics.

1289
01:25:42,413 --> 01:25:45,413
Speaker 2: You don't have or procedure, you don't have to be

1290
01:25:45,773 --> 01:25:52,093
Speaker 2: a doctor necessarily or almost anything to be able to

1291
01:25:52,173 --> 01:25:55,693
Speaker 2: rationalize your way through to the fact through the fact

1292
01:25:55,813 --> 01:25:57,653
Speaker 2: that there is something amiss.

1293
01:25:59,573 --> 01:26:04,493
Speaker 5: Absolutely, And as we talked about, remember the basic research,

1294
01:26:04,533 --> 01:26:07,093
Speaker 5: the basic science is not being funded, so we're ending

1295
01:26:07,173 --> 01:26:09,853
Speaker 5: up with lots and lots of technical experts. When you

1296
01:26:09,933 --> 01:26:13,493
Speaker 5: have lots and lots of technical experts, they find it

1297
01:26:13,733 --> 01:26:18,053
Speaker 5: very hard to join the dots which are political, which

1298
01:26:18,053 --> 01:26:24,013
Speaker 5: are ethical, which are legal, which are moral and so

1299
01:26:24,133 --> 01:26:27,213
Speaker 5: we actually have to start understanding that science is not

1300
01:26:27,293 --> 01:26:30,413
Speaker 5: this ideology that we worship.

1301
01:26:30,893 --> 01:26:31,333
Speaker 4: Science.

1302
01:26:31,413 --> 01:26:34,733
Speaker 5: To be trustworthy, science must follow good process and it's

1303
01:26:34,973 --> 01:26:37,773
Speaker 5: just like democracy. To be trustworthy, it has to be

1304
01:26:37,893 --> 01:26:42,933
Speaker 5: transparent and accountable, so people can be curious and they

1305
01:26:42,933 --> 01:26:46,693
Speaker 5: can be skeptical. And so you're exactly right late, and thank.

1306
01:26:46,533 --> 01:27:09,053
Speaker 2: You framed beautifully, Thank you so much. A podcast five,

1307
01:27:09,213 --> 01:27:12,053
Speaker 2: and the mailroom and the missus producer is here and waiting,

1308
01:27:12,133 --> 01:27:12,973
Speaker 2: how are you late?

1309
01:27:13,013 --> 01:27:14,133
Speaker 4: And I'm great? How are you?

1310
01:27:14,333 --> 01:27:16,253
Speaker 2: Will you look great? And if you're great, I'm great.

1311
01:27:17,013 --> 01:27:17,973
Speaker 4: That's the way it goes.

1312
01:27:18,013 --> 01:27:19,013
Speaker 2: Why don't you go great?

1313
01:27:19,413 --> 01:27:19,733
Speaker 4: Start?

1314
01:27:20,773 --> 01:27:23,413
Speaker 6: Jackie says, I feel inspired to write and thank you

1315
01:27:23,493 --> 01:27:26,573
Speaker 6: for your wonderful interview with doctor Pierre Corey. It fills

1316
01:27:26,573 --> 01:27:28,613
Speaker 6: me with hope to know that some of this information

1317
01:27:29,213 --> 01:27:32,373
Speaker 6: is starting to see the light of day. Also, latent

1318
01:27:32,373 --> 01:27:35,613
Speaker 6: that you crossed over with the link of pattern recognition,

1319
01:27:35,853 --> 01:27:39,173
Speaker 6: as you and pet Pierre discussed from climate scam to

1320
01:27:39,213 --> 01:27:43,213
Speaker 6: what truly is the COVID scam? I am someone like

1321
01:27:43,293 --> 01:27:46,013
Speaker 6: many others for whom the COVID scenario did not make

1322
01:27:46,093 --> 01:27:49,973
Speaker 6: any sense. From very early on, I remember watching footage

1323
01:27:49,973 --> 01:27:53,773
Speaker 6: of Dr Pierre Corey with his colleagues from the FLCCC.

1324
01:27:54,853 --> 01:27:58,893
Speaker 6: That's the Frontline COVID Critical Care Alliance, he says in

1325
01:27:58,973 --> 01:28:03,213
Speaker 6: brackets in the early days discussing their ideas and success

1326
01:28:03,893 --> 01:28:09,693
Speaker 6: using repurposed alternative treatments using age old trusted medicines like

1327
01:28:09,853 --> 01:28:15,493
Speaker 6: hydroxychloricon and ivermectin. How different the worldwide health or outcome

1328
01:28:15,533 --> 01:28:18,653
Speaker 6: could have been if only these wonderful experienced doctors were

1329
01:28:18,653 --> 01:28:21,773
Speaker 6: not shut down as they were. This also brings to

1330
01:28:21,813 --> 01:28:24,053
Speaker 6: my mind to remind you that we in New Zealand

1331
01:28:24,053 --> 01:28:28,253
Speaker 6: have our very own team of independent, thinking, courageous doctors

1332
01:28:28,253 --> 01:28:33,373
Speaker 6: in the form of nzdsos and Jackie goes on to

1333
01:28:33,613 --> 01:28:36,693
Speaker 6: give us a few a few names there. She says

1334
01:28:36,733 --> 01:28:39,973
Speaker 6: they have worked tirelessly in a similar way to the

1335
01:28:40,093 --> 01:28:45,613
Speaker 6: FLCCZ Alliance, speaking out, documenting, questioning every step of the

1336
01:28:45,653 --> 01:28:48,613
Speaker 6: way on behalf of New Zealanders. I know that they

1337
01:28:48,653 --> 01:28:52,413
Speaker 6: are currently working extremely hard collating information to be presented

1338
01:28:52,453 --> 01:28:56,573
Speaker 6: to the Royal Commission Inquiry Part two at the request

1339
01:28:56,653 --> 01:28:59,733
Speaker 6: of the Commission. Their journey must have been very similar

1340
01:28:59,773 --> 01:29:02,613
Speaker 6: to that of your guest Dr Cory. I for one,

1341
01:29:02,733 --> 01:29:06,053
Speaker 6: feel and debted to them for their efforts, expertise and

1342
01:29:06,213 --> 01:29:10,493
Speaker 6: sacrifices on our behalf finally late, and thank you again

1343
01:29:10,533 --> 01:29:13,893
Speaker 6: for your wonderful podcast and the opportunity for further discussion

1344
01:29:14,013 --> 01:29:15,853
Speaker 6: and thought provoking commentary.

1345
01:29:16,333 --> 01:29:17,293
Speaker 4: And that's from Jackie.

1346
01:29:17,453 --> 01:29:22,973
Speaker 2: Jackie brilliantly said thank you. Practically every email this week

1347
01:29:23,093 --> 01:29:27,813
Speaker 2: was about per Corey, and it's not surprising. I was

1348
01:29:27,853 --> 01:29:31,733
Speaker 2: thrilled to receive your podcast interviewing Doctor per Cory this week,

1349
01:29:32,293 --> 01:29:36,133
Speaker 2: having read doctor Cory's book, The War on ivermecnan and

1350
01:29:36,213 --> 01:29:40,893
Speaker 2: similarly morphing, as did Dr Corey from a vaccine committed

1351
01:29:40,973 --> 01:29:44,293
Speaker 2: Old Jeff into a New Jeff. The book was fascinating,

1352
01:29:44,333 --> 01:29:48,053
Speaker 2: illuminating and profound. The man, in my opinion, is a

1353
01:29:48,213 --> 01:29:52,333
Speaker 2: humanitarian hero, as is a previous interviewee of yours, doctor

1354
01:29:52,373 --> 01:29:56,053
Speaker 2: Paul Merrick Layton. The thrust of my email is to

1355
01:29:56,093 --> 01:29:59,933
Speaker 2: pose this question. At this stage of the slowly dwindling

1356
01:30:00,053 --> 01:30:04,893
Speaker 2: COVID pandemic, there is so much evidence that A mrn

1357
01:30:04,973 --> 01:30:10,093
Speaker 2: A vaccines are just plain dangerous and b repurposed cheap

1358
01:30:10,133 --> 01:30:14,133
Speaker 2: drugs like ivermectin work. Even if these two assertions are

1359
01:30:14,173 --> 01:30:16,893
Speaker 2: not one hundred percent driveable at this point in time,

1360
01:30:17,373 --> 01:30:20,853
Speaker 2: then at the very least, there is certainly enough intelligent

1361
01:30:21,013 --> 01:30:25,973
Speaker 2: questioning around these matters. So why then, are governments, including

1362
01:30:26,013 --> 01:30:30,613
Speaker 2: the New Zealand government, so blithely and casually recommending continued

1363
01:30:30,653 --> 01:30:34,093
Speaker 2: COVID jabs? Layton like me, I'll wager you will not

1364
01:30:34,293 --> 01:30:39,333
Speaker 2: have another clot shot? Am I right? Best regards, Jeff, Jeff,

1365
01:30:39,373 --> 01:30:42,373
Speaker 2: you are correct one hundred percent, Laydon.

1366
01:30:42,373 --> 01:30:45,653
Speaker 6: Steve says, thank you for hosting Pierre Corey on the podcast.

1367
01:30:45,813 --> 01:30:49,573
Speaker 6: Such a courageous and inspiring man. Though, as you pointed

1368
01:30:49,613 --> 01:30:52,573
Speaker 6: out in your conversation with Professor Thomas Barodi way back

1369
01:30:52,613 --> 01:30:56,413
Speaker 6: in August twenty twenty, Barodi was ahead of Cory with

1370
01:30:56,533 --> 01:31:01,853
Speaker 6: his cocktail of ivermecton, doxy cyclin and zinc. His ideas, however,

1371
01:31:01,933 --> 01:31:05,813
Speaker 6: were buried completely by the Australian authorities. What is not

1372
01:31:06,293 --> 01:31:09,173
Speaker 6: widely known is that at the time of the first

1373
01:31:09,373 --> 01:31:13,693
Speaker 6: SARS outbreak in the early two thousands, the US Defense

1374
01:31:14,093 --> 01:31:20,933
Speaker 6: Advanced Research Projects Agency began researching countermeasures for coronaviruses, and

1375
01:31:20,973 --> 01:31:26,693
Speaker 6: by twenty sixteen had concluded that ivermectin also, but to

1376
01:31:26,733 --> 01:31:32,893
Speaker 6: a lesser extent, hydroxychloroquine, was highly effective against such infections.

1377
01:31:33,533 --> 01:31:36,453
Speaker 6: That information was passed on by the way to the CDC.

1378
01:31:37,453 --> 01:31:40,133
Speaker 6: Obviously this would have been known to Fauci and all

1379
01:31:40,173 --> 01:31:44,413
Speaker 6: those responsible for the global COVID response, including the WHO

1380
01:31:44,653 --> 01:31:48,813
Speaker 6: Gates and our own Ashley Bloomfield, but they all deliberately

1381
01:31:48,893 --> 01:31:54,213
Speaker 6: suppressed that information and arranged to persecute and prosecute those

1382
01:31:54,253 --> 01:31:57,933
Speaker 6: who tried to disclose it to the world. Surely this

1383
01:31:58,013 --> 01:32:00,733
Speaker 6: must rank as one of the most evil acts in history.

1384
01:32:01,173 --> 01:32:03,693
Speaker 6: Tens of millions of lives would have been saved, and

1385
01:32:03,733 --> 01:32:06,253
Speaker 6: there would have been no need for the COVID injections,

1386
01:32:06,373 --> 01:32:09,573
Speaker 6: which were, by their very natured delay, deliberately designed two

1387
01:32:09,613 --> 01:32:14,493
Speaker 6: cause harm. A COVID awakening is happening slowly.

1388
01:32:14,173 --> 01:32:15,733
Speaker 4: Around the world, and there.

1389
01:32:15,573 --> 01:32:19,813
Speaker 6: Will be increasing calls for accountability that when the public

1390
01:32:19,933 --> 01:32:25,013
Speaker 6: understands quite how deliberately and maliciously i've emecton and hydroxy

1391
01:32:25,093 --> 01:32:29,173
Speaker 6: chloroquine were suppressed, it will surely call for the most

1392
01:32:29,253 --> 01:32:31,413
Speaker 6: extreme penalties for those responsible.

1393
01:32:31,533 --> 01:32:32,893
Speaker 4: And that is from Steve.

1394
01:32:33,133 --> 01:32:36,533
Speaker 2: Steve excellent. Now I've got a question for you. How

1395
01:32:36,653 --> 01:32:41,733
Speaker 2: is the everyday average well punter, as I say occasionally,

1396
01:32:42,213 --> 01:32:43,973
Speaker 2: how are they going to come across that? How are

1397
01:32:44,013 --> 01:32:47,573
Speaker 2: they going to find that out? Which media in this country,

1398
01:32:47,613 --> 01:32:50,933
Speaker 2: and I mean mainstream media. Which media in this country

1399
01:32:51,573 --> 01:32:55,253
Speaker 2: is blowing the trumpet on this? Can you point me

1400
01:32:55,293 --> 01:32:58,373
Speaker 2: to one, because I'm unfamiliar with it now. I don't

1401
01:32:58,373 --> 01:33:00,893
Speaker 2: spend a lot of time on mainstream media, I must admit,

1402
01:33:01,453 --> 01:33:05,373
Speaker 2: so maybe I've missed something. But my guess is that

1403
01:33:05,533 --> 01:33:08,013
Speaker 2: much of the mainstream media, if not most of it,

1404
01:33:08,053 --> 01:33:11,733
Speaker 2: is more more intent on burying their attitude to it

1405
01:33:11,773 --> 01:33:14,653
Speaker 2: at the time and their compliance with the powers that be,

1406
01:33:15,413 --> 01:33:19,413
Speaker 2: and they don't particularly want to be, shall we say, exposed.

1407
01:33:20,493 --> 01:33:25,053
Speaker 2: There was criminal activity. You're quite right. It is a

1408
01:33:25,253 --> 01:33:28,293
Speaker 2: very very evil thing. There was criminal activity, and there

1409
01:33:28,293 --> 01:33:30,613
Speaker 2: are people, even in this country, as we've said before,

1410
01:33:31,173 --> 01:33:33,573
Speaker 2: and better people than me have said it, who should

1411
01:33:33,613 --> 01:33:37,893
Speaker 2: be behind bars. Now. Now this letter asks for anonymity,

1412
01:33:38,733 --> 01:33:42,933
Speaker 2: so I don't see why not. Greetings, what's new? Nothing?

1413
01:33:42,973 --> 01:33:45,973
Speaker 2: Of course, another simply stunning discussion, this time between you

1414
01:33:46,053 --> 01:33:49,533
Speaker 2: and perre Corey. Great to hear him talking with you.

1415
01:33:49,653 --> 01:33:52,293
Speaker 2: His protocols have been on my fridge since they first

1416
01:33:52,333 --> 01:33:56,573
Speaker 2: came out and have been shared with many, albeit some

1417
01:33:56,653 --> 01:34:01,013
Speaker 2: of the medications have been challenging but not impossible to obtain.

1418
01:34:02,053 --> 01:34:05,013
Speaker 2: Name withheld. Please if you read this out even now,

1419
01:34:05,413 --> 01:34:08,733
Speaker 2: I don't want to drop myself in it. However, his

1420
01:34:08,813 --> 01:34:13,333
Speaker 2: protocol and the comments of others Tess Laurie, Peter mccullor,

1421
01:34:13,773 --> 01:34:17,573
Speaker 2: a doctor Chetty South Africa, gave me assurance I was

1422
01:34:17,653 --> 01:34:21,493
Speaker 2: correct in not taking a drug that had potential heart

1423
01:34:21,533 --> 01:34:26,093
Speaker 2: harm and has been proven and admitted. Having had one

1424
01:34:26,093 --> 01:34:28,693
Speaker 2: heart attack, I don't want another one. And when my

1425
01:34:29,133 --> 01:34:33,253
Speaker 2: longtime doctor would not give advice on boosting my immune

1426
01:34:33,293 --> 01:34:38,293
Speaker 2: system instead said get vexed, I lost faith and confidence

1427
01:34:38,373 --> 01:34:41,293
Speaker 2: in the industrial medical complex. Go well, keep up the

1428
01:34:41,293 --> 01:34:44,133
Speaker 2: good work from anonymous.

1429
01:34:44,613 --> 01:34:47,373
Speaker 6: Leyton Trish says after listening to Pierre Corey took about

1430
01:34:47,413 --> 01:34:50,373
Speaker 6: the misinformation on the cures for COVID, it reminded me

1431
01:34:50,413 --> 01:34:54,053
Speaker 6: of a book I've recently read. It's called Pharma Nomics,

1432
01:34:54,413 --> 01:34:57,973
Speaker 6: A real eye opener to the way pharmaceutical companies work.

1433
01:34:58,253 --> 01:35:02,253
Speaker 6: The ordinary citizen would be shocked. When did medicine become

1434
01:35:02,333 --> 01:35:05,133
Speaker 6: something that was something to be negotiated for the highest

1435
01:35:05,253 --> 01:35:08,533
Speaker 6: price and people wonder why it costs so much. It

1436
01:35:08,613 --> 01:35:12,093
Speaker 6: is well worth a read. I thoroughly enjoyed Pier Corey

1437
01:35:12,253 --> 01:35:16,613
Speaker 6: such enthusiasm and that's from trash.

1438
01:35:15,933 --> 01:35:21,413
Speaker 2: The enthusiasm aspect of doctor Corey was mentioned by a

1439
01:35:21,493 --> 01:35:24,533
Speaker 2: number of people. Actually it was you know, it was

1440
01:35:25,533 --> 01:35:29,973
Speaker 2: actually uplifting. Now, thanks for introducing doctor pier Corey to us.

1441
01:35:30,933 --> 01:35:34,493
Speaker 2: His description of the sinister force he faced during COVID

1442
01:35:34,613 --> 01:35:38,133
Speaker 2: was chilling when he said, I quote, that was when

1443
01:35:38,173 --> 01:35:41,053
Speaker 2: I finally realized I was up against something. I didn't

1444
01:35:41,093 --> 01:35:43,613
Speaker 2: know what it was, but it wasn't good, and it

1445
01:35:43,693 --> 01:35:47,413
Speaker 2: wasn't scientific, it wasn't humanitarian. I knew there was a

1446
01:35:47,453 --> 01:35:50,453
Speaker 2: force that was working against what we were trying to do,

1447
01:35:51,133 --> 01:35:54,653
Speaker 2: which has helped people and the world. So I started

1448
01:35:54,653 --> 01:35:57,253
Speaker 2: to get the feeling like there was something out there

1449
01:35:57,413 --> 01:36:00,733
Speaker 2: that was working against us. That was the first time

1450
01:36:00,813 --> 01:36:05,133
Speaker 2: I realized this was not just a scientific argument. Close quote.

1451
01:36:05,653 --> 01:36:08,613
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if Pierre realized it or not, but

1452
01:36:08,733 --> 01:36:13,613
Speaker 2: he had just succinctly described evil and this reality of

1453
01:36:13,693 --> 01:36:17,933
Speaker 2: COVID hell was made more jarring in Jasindra Dern's recent

1454
01:36:18,053 --> 01:36:23,373
Speaker 2: self worshiping Yale speech about herself and her own leadership.

1455
01:36:23,853 --> 01:36:26,973
Speaker 2: I have never heard so much self delusional tripe like this.

1456
01:36:27,693 --> 01:36:31,453
Speaker 2: I can't believe she actually said, I'm proud that our

1457
01:36:31,493 --> 01:36:35,453
Speaker 2: approach to COVID saved and estimated twenty thousand lives. Then

1458
01:36:35,453 --> 01:36:39,453
Speaker 2: she spews a full Kamala Harris word salad, saying, right now,

1459
01:36:39,493 --> 01:36:43,093
Speaker 2: we need the power of your impostor syndrome. I don't

1460
01:36:43,093 --> 01:36:45,893
Speaker 2: get that, but I'll stay with it because I don't Ptoine.

1461
01:36:46,133 --> 01:36:49,733
Speaker 2: Right now, we need the power of your impostor syndrome

1462
01:36:50,493 --> 01:36:54,773
Speaker 2: because it's also your curiosity and your humility. We need

1463
01:36:54,813 --> 01:36:58,373
Speaker 2: your sensitivity because it's also your kindness and your empathy.

1464
01:36:59,013 --> 01:37:02,893
Speaker 2: I see what you mean about the word salad. What

1465
01:37:02,933 --> 01:37:05,693
Speaker 2: the hell is that? He says. On the other hand,

1466
01:37:05,733 --> 01:37:10,133
Speaker 2: Michael Jackson reported a different story in Spectator Australia is

1467
01:37:10,213 --> 01:37:15,253
Speaker 2: saying to Kiwi's Addern's legacy is not one of kindness

1468
01:37:15,693 --> 01:37:21,053
Speaker 2: and empathy. On top of the heartlessness of the COVID years,

1469
01:37:21,573 --> 01:37:24,253
Speaker 2: it is one of a significant increase in national debt

1470
01:37:24,693 --> 01:37:28,133
Speaker 2: forty seven percent of GDP according to IMF figures, up

1471
01:37:28,173 --> 01:37:32,813
Speaker 2: from the low thirties in twenty eighteen. Recessions and economic malays.

1472
01:37:33,773 --> 01:37:36,893
Speaker 2: One thing I do agree with adern though. The world

1473
01:37:36,933 --> 01:37:42,453
Speaker 2: has indeed become a dumpster fire because delusional, narcissistic communist

1474
01:37:42,533 --> 01:37:48,013
Speaker 2: leaders like herself keep committing political arson. More Doctor Pierre

1475
01:37:48,013 --> 01:37:54,213
Speaker 2: Corey's fewer to Sinda Aderns, please thank you now just

1476
01:37:54,253 --> 01:37:58,813
Speaker 2: one word. I don't disagree with anything that you said,

1477
01:37:59,253 --> 01:38:01,933
Speaker 2: and more and more people are coming to realize the

1478
01:38:01,973 --> 01:38:07,693
Speaker 2: correctness of it. As for Michael Jackson, I'm in touch

1479
01:38:07,733 --> 01:38:09,693
Speaker 2: with him at the moment, and we'll have him on

1480
01:38:09,693 --> 01:38:12,613
Speaker 2: the podcast in a week or two, is my anticipation,

1481
01:38:12,773 --> 01:38:16,453
Speaker 2: Missus Producer. That's it, lovely, Later, we've got I think

1482
01:38:16,453 --> 01:38:17,813
Speaker 2: we've got a few more for next week if we

1483
01:38:17,853 --> 01:38:20,213
Speaker 2: need them. All work. Thanks, thanks, thank you to see

1484
01:38:20,253 --> 01:38:20,493
Speaker 2: you then.

1485
01:38:20,693 --> 01:38:20,973
Speaker 4: Bie.

1486
01:38:33,893 --> 01:38:37,093
Speaker 2: Now, before we go, some comments on Joe Biden and

1487
01:38:37,213 --> 01:38:40,533
Speaker 2: his prostate cancer. And I make these comments at this

1488
01:38:40,573 --> 01:38:44,813
Speaker 2: point anyway, because most of you know that I got

1489
01:38:44,853 --> 01:38:48,213
Speaker 2: diagnosed with prostate cancer and had my prostate out something

1490
01:38:48,333 --> 01:38:52,773
Speaker 2: like twenty three years ago. Gosh, is it really that long? Anyway,

1491
01:38:52,853 --> 01:38:56,013
Speaker 2: I have a vested interest in it, So let me

1492
01:38:56,053 --> 01:38:58,613
Speaker 2: refer to let me refer to some commentary.

1493
01:38:58,813 --> 01:38:58,893
Speaker 3: No.

1494
01:38:59,413 --> 01:39:01,453
Speaker 2: First of all, my thought. The first thing that I

1495
01:39:01,493 --> 01:39:04,493
Speaker 2: said to Missus Producer when the announcement was my well

1496
01:39:04,533 --> 01:39:06,973
Speaker 2: she told me when the announcement was made was that

1497
01:39:07,013 --> 01:39:10,333
Speaker 2: he's had this for a long time. There's nothing new,

1498
01:39:10,693 --> 01:39:13,733
Speaker 2: It's just another thing that's been hidden from the public.

1499
01:39:14,653 --> 01:39:18,213
Speaker 2: That was my thought immediately. It's my thought now. Apart

1500
01:39:18,213 --> 01:39:24,093
Speaker 2: from that. I've garnered some commentary from some American commentators

1501
01:39:24,293 --> 01:39:28,053
Speaker 2: as it happened, starting with Kurt Schlichter, who was on

1502
01:39:28,093 --> 01:39:31,293
Speaker 2: the podcast a few weeks ago. And I love his

1503
01:39:31,413 --> 01:39:34,973
Speaker 2: work because he's brutal, or he's prepared to be brutal

1504
01:39:34,973 --> 01:39:38,533
Speaker 2: when it's appropriate, and I think this particular situation calls

1505
01:39:38,533 --> 01:39:41,093
Speaker 2: for it. He covers it, so I'm not going to

1506
01:39:41,133 --> 01:39:45,933
Speaker 2: try except to quote him. What a remarkable coincidence that

1507
01:39:46,013 --> 01:39:48,973
Speaker 2: Joe Biden's wranglers discovered that he had cancer right in

1508
01:39:49,013 --> 01:39:52,613
Speaker 2: the middle of the revelations about how he was totally senile,

1509
01:39:52,813 --> 01:39:56,213
Speaker 2: and everyone around him, including his very real doctor wife,

1510
01:39:56,573 --> 01:40:02,013
Speaker 2: covered it up. Yeah right, his puppet masters knew even

1511
01:40:02,213 --> 01:40:06,333
Speaker 2: if that human Router barger a spell it for you,

1512
01:40:06,813 --> 01:40:10,493
Speaker 2: r U t ab A. In fact, let me pause

1513
01:40:10,533 --> 01:40:15,973
Speaker 2: here for a moment and check it. Check its meaning. Well,

1514
01:40:16,013 --> 01:40:19,613
Speaker 2: we learned something every day. Rutter Barger is a Swedish vegetable.

1515
01:40:20,573 --> 01:40:23,573
Speaker 2: And I don't know to who he is referring. Is

1516
01:40:23,613 --> 01:40:28,453
Speaker 2: his wife got Swedish blood? I don't know. Doesn't matter.

1517
01:40:28,813 --> 01:40:31,653
Speaker 2: Stage four prostate cancer does not sneak up on you.

1518
01:40:32,293 --> 01:40:35,573
Speaker 2: It's easy to detect. I know my PSA, he says,

1519
01:40:35,973 --> 01:40:39,053
Speaker 2: it's zero point zero seven. I got a tested a

1520
01:40:39,053 --> 01:40:41,453
Speaker 2: couple of weeks ago. I get a tested every year.

1521
01:40:41,813 --> 01:40:44,813
Speaker 2: Weird that I have better medical care than the president

1522
01:40:44,853 --> 01:40:48,333
Speaker 2: of the United States, Right, But you don't believe that.

1523
01:40:48,773 --> 01:40:51,093
Speaker 2: And I don't believe that the hacks, the frauds, and

1524
01:40:51,213 --> 01:40:55,893
Speaker 2: Charlatan's demanding that you believed that, certainly don't believe it.

1525
01:40:56,533 --> 01:40:59,013
Speaker 2: There are two categories of people who heard the news

1526
01:40:59,853 --> 01:41:02,293
Speaker 2: and immediately told us that we need to slow our

1527
01:41:02,413 --> 01:41:08,253
Speaker 2: role on demanding accountability for the rudderless presidency in solemn

1528
01:41:08,453 --> 01:41:12,173
Speaker 2: deference to the ultra convenient revelation. The first kind are

1529
01:41:12,253 --> 01:41:17,373
Speaker 2: nice people, too nice. Some are serial Fredricon invertebrates who

1530
01:41:17,413 --> 01:41:22,613
Speaker 2: always counsel weakness, submission, and silence. Some believe Christian charity

1531
01:41:22,733 --> 01:41:25,813
Speaker 2: requires not any prayers for him and his family, but

1532
01:41:25,893 --> 01:41:30,053
Speaker 2: a free pass on this massive wrongdoing for everyone involved.

1533
01:41:30,773 --> 01:41:35,213
Speaker 2: Others have an understandable sensitivity to the subject because they

1534
01:41:35,253 --> 01:41:37,733
Speaker 2: had family members who suffered the same terrible illness that

1535
01:41:37,813 --> 01:41:41,653
Speaker 2: Joe Biden has been revealed to have, Even though everybody

1536
01:41:41,653 --> 01:41:44,453
Speaker 2: around him must have known he had it four years

1537
01:41:44,853 --> 01:41:48,493
Speaker 2: and simply lied to cover it up. Now let me

1538
01:41:48,613 --> 01:41:51,653
Speaker 2: cut to the end. But but, but, but but you're

1539
01:41:51,693 --> 01:41:55,973
Speaker 2: picking on a guy with a stutter who has prostate cancer. Well,

1540
01:41:56,053 --> 01:41:59,693
Speaker 2: the fake fussy pearl clutching over us being meanies isn't

1541
01:41:59,693 --> 01:42:03,533
Speaker 2: going to work anymore. I, for one, remember their grave disappointment.

1542
01:42:03,693 --> 01:42:08,013
Speaker 2: This is some sarcasm. I for one remembered their grave

1543
01:42:08,333 --> 01:42:12,133
Speaker 2: disappointment when Donald Trump was almost murdered and when an

1544
01:42:12,133 --> 01:42:15,293
Speaker 2: innocent man was Just the other day, I stumbled on

1545
01:42:15,333 --> 01:42:18,773
Speaker 2: a Twitter thread of leftist morons explaining how the whole

1546
01:42:18,813 --> 01:42:22,053
Speaker 2: Butler shooting thing was a giant head fake, designed to

1547
01:42:22,053 --> 01:42:26,013
Speaker 2: do something because of reasons and shut up your all

1548
01:42:26,093 --> 01:42:30,933
Speaker 2: racists and literally Hitler. If Trump got a prostate cancer diagnosis,

1549
01:42:31,533 --> 01:42:34,933
Speaker 2: every Blue state and Ivy League college campus will declare

1550
01:42:34,933 --> 01:42:39,053
Speaker 2: a holiday. The difference is that we're not celebrating his disease.

1551
01:42:39,853 --> 01:42:43,533
Speaker 2: We're just not granting a blanket pardon because of it.

1552
01:42:44,093 --> 01:42:46,533
Speaker 2: And that's what it boils down to. Now, just quickly,

1553
01:42:47,053 --> 01:42:51,453
Speaker 2: I refer to another another piece that goes thus, Several

1554
01:42:51,493 --> 01:42:55,093
Speaker 2: physicians and experts took to Twitter to cast dispersion, stating

1555
01:42:55,133 --> 01:42:57,213
Speaker 2: that the timing of the announcement, as well as the

1556
01:42:57,213 --> 01:43:00,813
Speaker 2: seriousness of the diagnosis of the former president simply didn't

1557
01:43:00,853 --> 01:43:03,893
Speaker 2: add up. They weren't swallowing the official story coming from

1558
01:43:03,933 --> 01:43:07,213
Speaker 2: a politician, hook line and sinker, as they may have

1559
01:43:07,333 --> 01:43:11,373
Speaker 2: done in the past. How could an easily detectable and

1560
01:43:11,453 --> 01:43:15,413
Speaker 2: treatable form of cancer reach such a grave state without

1561
01:43:15,533 --> 01:43:20,173
Speaker 2: anyone catching it in the most medically monitored human on

1562
01:43:20,253 --> 01:43:23,973
Speaker 2: the planet. Even CNN wasn't buying it as they broke

1563
01:43:24,013 --> 01:43:29,453
Speaker 2: into immediate coverage. Doc brambab speculated that Biden perhaps was

1564
01:43:29,493 --> 01:43:32,893
Speaker 2: seeking treatment in secret and the hormone treatments may have

1565
01:43:32,933 --> 01:43:37,013
Speaker 2: contributed to his cognitive to climb. Cancer expert doctor Stephen

1566
01:43:37,133 --> 01:43:41,653
Speaker 2: Key also wrote, this is the commentary I first read. Actually,

1567
01:43:42,333 --> 01:43:47,813
Speaker 2: Doctor Stephen Key quay that it's highly likely Biden's cancer

1568
01:43:47,813 --> 01:43:51,693
Speaker 2: diagnosis came sometime during the duration of his term, and

1569
01:43:51,773 --> 01:43:55,173
Speaker 2: even possibly at the beginning or even before. The highest

1570
01:43:55,213 --> 01:43:58,773
Speaker 2: probability is that the diagnosis has been known for many years,

1571
01:43:59,133 --> 01:44:01,773
Speaker 2: but a calculated decision was made to not announce it,

1572
01:44:02,133 --> 01:44:05,333
Speaker 2: not treat it, and hope after the re election the

1573
01:44:05,373 --> 01:44:08,773
Speaker 2: treatment could be done when it was still a local disease.

1574
01:44:08,893 --> 01:44:13,653
Speaker 2: An unfortunate turn of events, he wrote, and I think finally,

1575
01:44:14,373 --> 01:44:18,333
Speaker 2: Nick Mark, a medical practitioner, wrote on Twitter, as someone

1576
01:44:18,373 --> 01:44:23,413
Speaker 2: who follows presidential health reporting, I noticed something odd. Unlike

1577
01:44:23,453 --> 01:44:29,293
Speaker 2: his predecessors, Biden's physicians never reported PSA aha, and he

1578
01:44:29,453 --> 01:44:34,213
Speaker 2: included an extensive thread showing that not taking or reporting

1579
01:44:34,213 --> 01:44:38,413
Speaker 2: a PSA test for a president is rare. What's more,

1580
01:44:38,493 --> 01:44:41,693
Speaker 2: journalists up to swallowing whatever story is fed to them

1581
01:44:41,733 --> 01:44:46,293
Speaker 2: by the former president's aides took to promoting skeptical experts

1582
01:44:46,333 --> 01:44:50,533
Speaker 2: of the former president's sudden diagnosis. Whether it's the medical

1583
01:44:50,533 --> 01:44:53,693
Speaker 2: fought out from heavy handed pandemic policy, there is a

1584
01:44:53,693 --> 01:44:57,213
Speaker 2: welcome dose of skepticism coming from a community that has

1585
01:44:57,333 --> 01:45:01,093
Speaker 2: been in dire need of thought reform. Would things be

1586
01:45:01,093 --> 01:45:03,293
Speaker 2: different if Joe Biden was still the president we were

1587
01:45:03,333 --> 01:45:08,453
Speaker 2: all all taking his doctor's word at face value. Maybe,

1588
01:45:08,573 --> 01:45:12,093
Speaker 2: But thanks to medical experts openly questioning, this new Biden

1589
01:45:12,173 --> 01:45:16,773
Speaker 2: diagnosis after ignoring his decline for so long is a

1590
01:45:16,813 --> 01:45:21,533
Speaker 2: welcome change, and we should hope that it continues. Concluding

1591
01:45:21,573 --> 01:45:25,253
Speaker 2: with trust, the science is no longer good enough, and

1592
01:45:25,333 --> 01:45:28,133
Speaker 2: it certainly should not be good enough for the ongoing

1593
01:45:28,213 --> 01:45:32,093
Speaker 2: cover up of the former president's health one of the

1594
01:45:32,413 --> 01:45:37,253
Speaker 2: most abused phrases. I think in the last well at

1595
01:45:37,373 --> 01:45:44,733
Speaker 2: least decade, if not longer, trust the science skepticism is necessary.

1596
01:45:44,933 --> 01:45:46,893
Speaker 2: So that will take us out for podcasts number two

1597
01:45:46,973 --> 01:45:49,333
Speaker 2: hundred and eighty five and if you'd like to comment

1598
01:45:49,933 --> 01:45:53,653
Speaker 2: latent at newstalksb dot co dot nz or Carolyn with

1599
01:45:53,733 --> 01:45:58,173
Speaker 2: a y at newstalksb dot co dot nz. We shall

1600
01:45:58,213 --> 01:46:01,373
Speaker 2: return in a few days with podcast two eight six.

1601
01:46:01,893 --> 01:46:04,653
Speaker 2: Until then, as always, thank you for listening and we'll

1602
01:46:04,653 --> 01:46:05,133
Speaker 2: talk soon.

1603
01:46:13,053 --> 01:46:16,693
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from news Talks at B Listen

1604
01:46:16,773 --> 01:46:19,733
Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with

1605
01:46:19,813 --> 01:46:22,973
Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio