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Speaker 1: Now Labor. Labour wants to fight back against what it

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Speaker 1: says is the tobacco industry's influence over government. A member's

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Speaker 1: bill in the name of Labour's Aischaverral would ban government

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Speaker 1: support for the tobacco industry and require full transparency around

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Speaker 1: tobacco lobbying.

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Speaker 2: II.

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Speaker 1: Cheverral is with me now.

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Speaker 2: Heyisha, Hey Heather, thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 1: It's good to talk to you now. The headline of

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Speaker 1: your press release says Labor is launching a member's bill

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Speaker 1: to stop the government from putting tobacco industry interests ahead

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Speaker 1: of public health. How would you stop them putting that

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Speaker 1: ahead of public health?

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Speaker 2: The bill says that the government isn't allowed to support

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Speaker 2: the tobacco industry, and it also has a number of

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Speaker 2: steps to require that any contact or interaction with the

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Speaker 2: tobacco industry is transparent. So it's reported, okay.

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Speaker 1: And then what happens if it's reported, what do we

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Speaker 1: do with it?

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Speaker 2: Well, a couple of things. Firstly, it means that journalists

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Speaker 2: like yourself can follow up on those lengths, public size

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Speaker 2: them and ask questions. New Zealanders should know if there's

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Speaker 2: been tobacco industry involvement between ministers and officials when particular

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Speaker 2: proposals are draft up, and that's what the bill does.

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Speaker 1: I can do you think a similar approach needs to

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Speaker 1: be taken with everybody who lobbies or just with the

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Speaker 1: tobacco guys.

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Speaker 2: No, I don't. Tobacco is a uniquely harmful product. It

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Speaker 2: kills half the people that use it. We don't have

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Speaker 2: other products like that, So that's why we need this

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Speaker 2: specific focus on tobacco.

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Speaker 1: What about though, the vaping industry.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the other part of this is New Zealand over

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Speaker 2: ten years ago signed a Framework Convention on Tobacco Control.

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Speaker 2: Because tobacco control around the world, the industry tries and

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Speaker 2: undermines it. So we haven't even brought into law those

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Speaker 2: obligations we have under that convention, and that's what this

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Speaker 2: bill is trying to do.

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Speaker 1: But do you know what I mean? Like, I just

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Speaker 1: wonder if we are making these guys the big bad

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Speaker 1: guys and then ignoring other things that could be equally harmful,

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Speaker 1: like vaping for example.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Look that as time goes on, we've learned more

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Speaker 2: and more about the harms to do with faping. That

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Speaker 2: tobacco is the most harmful product that's sold to consumers

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Speaker 2: in the world. So I think it does need its

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Speaker 2: own approach to stop our laws being changed for the

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Speaker 2: tobacco industry when actually we want them to support public health.

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Speaker 1: How many people smoke in this country at the moment

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Speaker 1: I share, Oh.

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Speaker 2: It's I can't tell you the number, but it's six

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Speaker 2: point one percent. I think six point four percent.

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Speaker 1: And do you know how many of us of us

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Speaker 1: suck on those USB sticks and call them vapes?

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Speaker 2: Not so many, but a growing number, particularly amongst young people.

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Speaker 2: We saw the rate of youth faping kick up to

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Speaker 2: about ten percent. Now it's coming down slightly, and I

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Speaker 2: hope it goes down further.

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Speaker 1: You don't think that's smaller. It's smaller than I would

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Speaker 1: have thought. More of us are vaping than smoking.

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Speaker 2: It depends which age group you look at.

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Speaker 1: I believe, I believe it's something. It's still you'll know

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Speaker 1: more people who vape than smoke, right, that's right? Yaheh

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Speaker 1: me too, Okay, so do you The only point I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to make is I just feel like you guys

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Speaker 1: are weirdly fixated by the tobacco industry and you are

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Speaker 1: ignoring things that are potentially more problematic and more widespread.

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Speaker 2: I hope we don't ignore them, and when Labor launches

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Speaker 2: its health policy, we'll look at all of the opportunities

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Speaker 2: to prevent ill health. Tobacco and vaping another's okay, but

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Speaker 2: canash my thought red program tells more people than anything else,

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Speaker 2: any other product now well at the.

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Speaker 1: Moment, because we've been smoking it for donkeys years.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: The reason I'm sort of saying this I share is

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Speaker 1: because I feel like this is a political move. Like

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Speaker 1: it's not to say that this is without merit, but

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Speaker 1: it just feels really weirdly political from you guys. You're

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Speaker 1: just having a crack at Casey Costello here on tobacco,

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Speaker 1: and so you're doing this when actually, if you really

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Speaker 1: cared about lobbying and people's health, you should be extending

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Speaker 1: it to all lobbying maybe or anything that people suck

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Speaker 1: into their lungs, not just tobacco.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I think you're also making a valid, a

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Speaker 2: valid point. We do need to keep it further, improving

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Speaker 2: our laws on vaping. We supported the last bill that

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Speaker 2: Casey Costello put up on vaping because we do think

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Speaker 2: that's important. But just remember vaping is not yet linked

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Speaker 2: to death in the way that tobacco is.

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Speaker 1: Not yet because we haven't been sucking it long in

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Speaker 1: o FA.

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Speaker 2: Well, the other day we saw one of the first

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Speaker 2: studies linking it to chronic lung disease, and I think

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Speaker 2: that does mean we need to take vaping more seriously

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Speaker 2: than we have.

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Speaker 1: Aisha, it's good to talk to you. I really appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Thanks mate, look after yourself. As sashiverral Labour's health spokesperson.

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Speaker 1: For more from Heather duplessy Ellen Drive, listen live to

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