1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Business of Tech powered by two 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 1: Degrees Business. I'm Peter Griffin and in this episode, I'm 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,959 Speaker 1: looking at a major shakeup signal this week in how 4 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 1: IT procurement is done across government. Yes, the government is 5 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: embarking on what could be the most transformative overhaul of 6 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: digital procurement, IT spending and public service delivery in decades. 7 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 2: The goal to save up to three. 8 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: Point nine billion dollars over the next five years, bring 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: modern services to everyone's smartphone, and finally crack that fragmentation 10 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: problem that's plagued government ICT for decades. At Business Desk, 11 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: we've unfortunately documented a number of failed government IT project 12 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: in recent years, cost blowouts, delayed launches, in some cases 13 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: projects just digit entirely. This is all hard earned taxpayer 14 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: dollars that goes up in smoke. Approach to procurement was 15 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: obviously needed. One less about big bespoke IT systems that 16 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,639 Speaker 1: take a long time to build and deploy, more about 17 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: modular systems, more agile delivery off them, and greater use 18 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: of off the shelf solutions hopefully provided by New Zealand 19 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: startups and tech companies. In theory, centralizing IT procurement through 20 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: the Department of Internal Affairs should stop the wasteful duplication 21 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: and put everyone finally on the same page. It could 22 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: also enable things like the All of Government app that's 23 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: in the works, including a digital wallet for verifying identity 24 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: and age for government and private services, a digital driver's 25 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: license even, and also the rollout of AI services across government. 26 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: Joining me this week or two of the key architects 27 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: behind this mission, Paul James, the Government Chief Digital Officer, 28 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: and Miles Ward, the Deputy Government Chief Digital Officer, both 29 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: of them from DEA. Miles is soon to step into 30 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: the role as Chief Technology Officer for the Government to 31 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: manage this new way of procuring IT and digital services. 32 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: It's a big change and one not without risks. But 33 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: with thirteen billion dollars in government IT spending on the 34 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: roadmap over the next five years, but only two thirds 35 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: of it funded, it's one that really needs to work 36 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: out well. 37 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: So here's Paul. 38 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: James and Miles Ward on their big plan to do 39 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 1: government IT procurement a hell of a lot better. Paul 40 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: and Miles Welcome to the Business of Tech. Great to 41 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: see and Paul, it's been a couple of years almost 42 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,959 Speaker 1: since we last caught up a lot of water under 43 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: the bridge on all things digital and tech related in government. 44 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 1: And probably the biggest thing really is is the real 45 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 1: rise of artificial intelligence generative AI is everywhere you've put out, 46 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: in conjunction with NBA, a strategy national strategy for AI. 47 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: So you've laid your cards on the table. There are 48 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: light touch raging for AI. Is what you're pursuing in 49 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: New Zealand. Tell us where we're at, trusting in terms 50 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: of public sector adoption of AI, where are we at? 51 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 3: Thanks Bet, great to be back, really delighted to have 52 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 3: the chance to talk a bit more about all things 53 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 3: digital and the public service and AI is a great 54 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 3: place to start. So look, our real focus has been 55 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 3: to say to the public service, AI is here. 56 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 4: It's only a growing significance and importance. 57 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 3: We've got to get our heads around it and we've 58 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 3: got to start building our capability around it. So our 59 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 3: focus has been public sector adoption of AI. Started with 60 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 3: some initial guidance. We've got out of framework to support 61 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 3: public sector adoption. We've built a community of practice to 62 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 3: connect public servance across the public service around AI. We've 63 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 3: been running some development and training. What we really want 64 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 3: is a leadership teams in the public service to be 65 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 3: thinking about AI, what does it mean for the services 66 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 3: they are responsible for, what do they need to be doing. 67 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 4: We think it's still quite. 68 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 3: A new emergent technology really in terms of its impact 69 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 3: and implications, but we need to start now to build 70 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 3: our capability and start thinking about what will it mean 71 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 3: and what can we do right. 72 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: It's been around for a long time and there are 73 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: some notable examples I think in acc and others where 74 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 1: AIS being used. In terms of the generative AI, I 75 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: think you've rolled out co pilot across most government departments, 76 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: so for productivity, email presentations, and now a lot of 77 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: public servants who are using it. You're seeing any interesting 78 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: use cases emerging for generative AI beyond that productivity stuff. 79 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, it's a great question. 80 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 3: We've just completed our annual survey of AI uptake across 81 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 3: public sector. It's on our website digital dot gov, dot 82 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 3: z quick Sales patch there and two hundred use cases 83 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 3: across the core public service that we work with. Still 84 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 3: the majority are in if you like personal productivity and 85 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 3: call centers, etc. Really pleasingly a quarter of them are 86 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 3: gone past proof of concept or use cases and then 87 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 3: now into operation production, so we're starting to see bettered 88 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 3: and baked in use We think it's going to be 89 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 3: a little while before it really gets into direct customer interface. 90 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 3: We think the next best use cases are probably still 91 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,679 Speaker 3: going to be in processing, back office processing information volumes 92 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 3: of information tends you into the tech itself, how tech 93 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 3: has managed, developed and supported, But we do need to 94 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 3: be thinking about that customer interface. Around general of AI, 95 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 3: we think it still keeps you a little way. 96 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: Off any sort of sense of how productivity is being 97 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: impacted by the use of AI. In that productivity space, 98 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: people being able to summarize documents fast, to bring together reports, 99 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 1: respond to emails faster. Are you getting any baseline across 100 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: government about efficiency gains? 101 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, it'd be a great thing to have probably 102 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 3: better data than we've got. But we know in the 103 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 3: call center example, that the transcription of a call is 104 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,359 Speaker 3: happening instantaneous through the use of AI. It would have 105 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 3: used to take in a call center worker six to 106 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 3: ten minutes to transcribe that call, So there's an immediate 107 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 3: saving there. So we've got data that pulls together that picture. 108 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 3: But I think really trying to get into what is 109 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 3: that efficiency and productivity impact from AI and finding ways 110 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 3: to measure that. Miles and I were just in Singapore 111 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 3: last week and read a conversation about a dozen countries 112 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 3: we're with for a couple of days with Astraight about 113 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 3: how they think about measuring AI. 114 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 4: Miles, you might want to talk. 115 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 5: About Yeah, I think there's a big discussion at the 116 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 5: moment about the return on investment versus value, and what's 117 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 5: been seen is a lot of productivity gains in government. 118 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 5: You look at the value not only the private value, 119 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 5: but the public value. So there's a lot of discussions 120 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 5: around how to measure that. So for example housing, you 121 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 5: might have good processes around how you look at the 122 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,679 Speaker 5: high use cases, but you look at the public value, 123 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 5: which is about well the impact on poverty. 124 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 2: But when you look at the ROI, what. 125 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 5: A lot of organizations are seeing is that actually the 126 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 5: ROI on that return on investment is quite difficult. Yes, 127 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 5: now that doesn't mean that everyone is at all in. 128 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 5: That just means it's probably the infancy stages where we're 129 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 5: still trying to develop where that return on investment, where 130 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 5: the cash is going to be coming out of the 131 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 5: system where the decreases are going to come from, but 132 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 5: that doesn't outweigh definitely the productivity gains. 133 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you sort of have to experiment responsibly government 134 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: to figure out pilot things. And I think that's all 135 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: the studies from the big consulting firms are saying that 136 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: we're struggling to get out of proof of concept phase 137 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: with generative AI, and that goes through the best private 138 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: companies for startups as well. 139 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 4: Yeah. Look, we're in Singapore. 140 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 3: We're put of a round table with private sector there 141 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 3: and the key message from them is most of the 142 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:52,119 Speaker 3: use cases haven't worked. 143 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 4: They've turned off more than they've kept going. 144 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 3: But that's not deterring them because the things that are 145 00:07:57,640 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 3: working that can really see the. 146 00:07:58,840 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 4: Promise of it. 147 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 3: It aspects again to all the technology has been with 148 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 3: us for a little while, the maturity of it and 149 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 3: then the business impacts are still in the infancy, so 150 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 3: we've got to be across as a public service, we 151 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 3: have to be engaging with it. But I do think 152 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 3: the reality is it might take us a few more 153 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 3: years to really work out where is the big varia 154 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 3: for New Zealanders from the deployment of this across our services. 155 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: Right and you put the guidance in place, it's pretty 156 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: clear what you can and can't do is a shadow 157 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: AI as they call it. 158 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 2: Is that an issue and government? 159 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: Are you finding that public services are going, Oh, I'd 160 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: just rather use chat GPT to do this and is 161 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: that a risk? 162 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 5: I think if we look at the things that we've 163 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 5: got in place, so we have a community of practice, 164 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 5: and so the community practice is quite tight around how 165 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 5: we want to responsibly use it. So a lot of 166 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 5: the guidance and frameworks about responsibility, we've got a lot 167 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 5: of effort in terms of the policy, the frameworks, the guidance. 168 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 5: Is it going to be instances of where people use 169 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 5: chet GBT probably in a home sense on data debts 170 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 5: just to do with their own private but in terms 171 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 5: of public sector, I think there's a lot of self 172 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 5: awareness around what you can and can't do. I think 173 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 5: also there's a lot of if it being made around 174 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 5: the different types of AI, and so it's not just 175 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 5: the chat GBT, So we know these machine learning there's 176 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 5: lots of different types of AI, and we're looking at 177 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 5: all types to just make sure that we've got the 178 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 5: right tools. We want to be agnostic of the tools. 179 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 5: We just want to make sure we use the right 180 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 5: AI for the right reasons. 181 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 3: For myself, Petter, We've got Copilot within department term Affairs, 182 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 3: which obviously I'm based on use that a bit, but 183 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 3: I do use on my personal phone different AI tools 184 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 3: as well, and I must admit to occasionally asking them 185 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 3: a work question. 186 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 4: It's not any private information or anything. 187 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 3: Like that, so I guess that reflects that, you know, 188 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 3: we don't want to import all those tools into our 189 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 3: environment yet, but I'm still interested in how do they work, 190 00:09:57,760 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 3: how do I compare them myself. I think that just 191 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 3: it's again to technology in the infancy. We will get 192 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 3: to a point where there's an approved tool set across 193 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 3: the public sector at some point, but it's just moving. 194 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 3: The technology is moving so fast, and that's one of 195 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 3: the real insights we see is that it is just 196 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 3: so quick. I mean, where we are now a year 197 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 3: ago you wouldn't have expected to be and it will 198 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 3: be the same again in another year's time. 199 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 2: In terms of the AI strategy. 200 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: A bit of pushback from the business community and particularly 201 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: from the academic community. You'll have seen that the letter 202 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: from Andrew Linsen and others really saying, look, we urgently 203 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: need to address regulation, and that was something that in 204 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: the strategy. So we're going to use existing legislation, will 205 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: tweak if need be, but definitely nowhere near as aggressive 206 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: as for instance, at EU and even parts of the 207 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: US by state, you know, they're doing a lot of regulation. 208 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: What was your take on that feedback? 209 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, it's a life debate, clearly without a doubt. 210 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 3: So that strategy has been led by NB where we 211 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 3: were involved, our advice is entirely consistent with the strategy landed. 212 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,199 Speaker 3: So our focus is the public sector. We don't need 213 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 3: law to regulate the public sector. We can regulate them 214 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 3: through our guidance, through the framework we've put in place. 215 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 3: So in effect we are regulating public sector use right, 216 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 3: but just not through law in terms of wider regulation 217 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 3: across the economy in terms of statute, you know. Fascinatingly again, 218 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 3: we're in Singapore last week talking to half dozen countries. 219 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 3: The move there is to move away from regulation because 220 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 3: what the find is the technology is moving so quick 221 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 3: you just can't do it as a statute. It's going 222 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 3: to be much more effective to do it in rules 223 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 3: and guidance. Than it is baking it into statue, and 224 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 3: most countries actually do have underpinning legal frameworks around privacy, 225 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 3: around security that work pretty effectively for a range of 226 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 3: different technologies, so potentially a better wait and see as well. 227 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: The other I think criticism is no mention of sovereign 228 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: AI and the effort to not necessarily build our own 229 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: large language model. It's hugely expensive, but having more autonomy 230 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 1: over our AI systems in New Zealand so it reflects 231 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: our culture and our priorities and not just be put 232 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 1: onto cloud and in a big tech a center I 233 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 1: guess more MB's sort of department by any views on that, No. 234 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 3: It's almost ours because we think about the public sector. 235 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 3: So what does the public sector need in terms of 236 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 3: those services to retain sovereign? And for us and sovereign, 237 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 3: it's really about the confidence of the public, the trust 238 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 3: and resilience to know that they can continue to operate. 239 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 3: So that's what we need to be mindful of. Look, 240 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 3: our thinking at this point is the main thing we 241 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 3: need to do to retain sovereignty is probably to retain 242 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 3: flexibility and agility, so not getting locked down overly committed, 243 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:34,559 Speaker 3: because again the technology is moving so. 244 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 4: Quickly, it's evolving very rapidly. 245 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 3: I think retaining flexibility and agility, so building capability, but 246 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 3: retaining the ability about a move to use different tool 247 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 3: sets to make good choice about what's the right tool 248 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 3: set for the right issue. 249 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 4: That's where we keep. 250 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 3: Our sovereignty for now, and then at some point maybe 251 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 3: we need to think about whether back there is something 252 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 3: a bit more in terms of buy or build, etc. 253 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 3: But at this stage, retaining flexibility and agility as where 254 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 3: we're focused. 255 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: Flexibility and agility, I think is central to this cabinet 256 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: paper that's just been released that is really central to 257 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: what DIA does. Fascinating stuff here that outlines the problem 258 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 1: which we've known about for a while. Thirteen billion dollars 259 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: of largely unfunded commitments to ICT projects over the next 260 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: five years in New Zealand. So where's the money going 261 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: to come for all of these really important IT projects. 262 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 2: It's not really sustainable. 263 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: So presumably you took that case to the minister and 264 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: to Cabinet and said, look, we've got to do something 265 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: about this. What has been approved, what has been decided 266 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: that DIA is going to do about this. 267 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 3: Look, I'm delighted to speak about this and I'll just 268 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 3: preface it, but then I'll hand over it to Miles, 269 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 3: and I think what it say is the problem that 270 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 3: we saw and talked to Cabinet was a couple of 271 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 3: parts to it. 272 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 4: What is affordability. 273 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 3: So the twelve to thirteen billion plan spend over four 274 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 3: to five years, which about two thirds is funded, but 275 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 3: there's a big chunk still not funded, but really underlying 276 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:58,599 Speaker 3: issues fragmentation. 277 00:13:58,880 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 4: So we are very. 278 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 3: Highlyized as a public service. In our public services compared 279 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 3: to the world. We've been successful. Agencies have digitized, but 280 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 3: the digitized in a way that leads us very fragmented. 281 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 3: Every agency has got their own set up, their own systems, 282 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 3: their own applications, and their own points of connection with 283 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 3: a customer. So it's fragmented for New Zealanders as customers, 284 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 3: and it's fragmented in terms of the technology, and it's 285 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 3: extensive we think as a result. So that's the preface 286 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 3: and the problem of statement that we've talked to government 287 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 3: and we've made proposal about some things to be done differently, 288 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 3: and we're grateful that Cabinet supported that. Miles maybe touched 289 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 3: on the big things that we're into. 290 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, look, I think it's an exciting opportunity, and I 291 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 5: think falls just absolutely underline why we need to do it. 292 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 5: A couple of other things that the footprint is way 293 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 5: too big, way too expensive, and when we start looking 294 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 5: at streamlining services, we need to connect up a lot more. 295 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 5: So we are looking at a at a target state, 296 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 5: and the target state is about navigating agencies toward week 297 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 5: government need to be. And that's about how we reuse systems. 298 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 5: We get modular systems, smaller systems, we're a lot more 299 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 5: agile in terms of how we deliver those services, but 300 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 5: we leverage of things like digital public infrastructure where we 301 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 5: have reusable assets. So instead of agencies building everyone building 302 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 5: a payment system where we have one, we look at 303 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 5: digital identity and we'll talk about the government app. 304 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 4: We'll have one or a government app. 305 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 5: We'll have one wallet, we'll have one issuance platform, we'll 306 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 5: have common capability that agencies will build to and utilize. 307 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 5: And so the target state just gives that direction of 308 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 5: travel and just enables those architects to be able to 309 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 5: move those agencies in line with what a joined up 310 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 5: government looks like. There's great things around how we look 311 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 5: at centralized investment, centralized procurement, and the great thing there 312 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 5: is about how we can start aggregating procurement, getting better 313 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 5: price points, getting the economy as a scar that we 314 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 5: should be looking at how we purchase once at ensuring 315 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,479 Speaker 5: we're directing the traffic around what agencies are looking to 316 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 5: procure moving forward, but also in align with the technology 317 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 5: that we need, so bespoke becomes something that doesn't happen, 318 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 5: but rather we go to what is common and the 319 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 5: outcome there is to ensure we've got a joined up government. 320 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: So that's a five year target state that will be 321 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: evaluated and then set again. And interestingly you put in 322 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: an estimate here in the cabinet paper up to potentially 323 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: three billion dollars you think you can say by taking 324 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: this approach. 325 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 2: In the next five years. 326 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: So that is through the changes in procurement, avoiding duplication 327 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: in terms of new systems that are rolling out. 328 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a number of things so we don't all 329 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 5: have to buy the same pieces of tech. We know 330 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 5: therese better price points, we know there's licensing and over 331 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 5: time we know that the cost is going to be 332 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 5: going down. We know there's some procurement that we don't need, 333 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 5: so there's a combination of things. So I think that 334 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 5: we'll reach the target over that five year period. 335 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 4: At the moment, we've got a couple of proof points. 336 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 3: This one is the All Government Common Capabilities Portfolio that 337 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 3: we support, So the billion dollars went through that last 338 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 3: year across the public sector and there's one hundred million 339 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 3: dollars in savings from that, so there's a ten percent 340 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 3: saving in our existing procurement processes. So stepping that up, 341 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 3: we can see the pathway to that. The best example 342 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 3: we've got at the moment is we started a programmer 343 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 3: work a couple of years ago where we realized twenty 344 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 3: three agencies we're looking to replace their finance systems over the. 345 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 4: Next five years. It's got to be a better way. 346 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 3: So spinning out of the IR transformation, we bought the 347 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 3: Common Process Model license for New Zealand off them, and 348 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 3: the endpoint for us will be a panel of half 349 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 3: a dozen providers providing not just finance, but the AIRP 350 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 3: solutions are all configured to a common process model, so 351 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 3: it's simplified and standardized across the public sector, and public 352 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 3: sector agencies will just select one of those, so we're 353 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 3: forecasting that's one hundred and sixty million dollars over eight years. 354 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 4: Through that process, what. 355 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 3: We realize is we can't do that point by point 356 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 3: across a different functionality. So it took us eighteen months 357 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 3: two years to get that going. We've got to get 358 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 3: to change the system rather than and this is what 359 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 3: the Cabinet paper and the proposals and there is, we've 360 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 3: got to step beyond going individual lines of functionality to 361 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 3: actually changing the system of how government works around digital 362 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 3: and that's what we're aiming for. 363 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: There'll be a Chief Technology Officer role to oversee all 364 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: of this, which will be miles. 365 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'll come under the GCDO function. The advantage of 366 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 5: that is and look, this isn't the command control side. 367 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 5: This is more bringing the government together being very clear 368 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 5: on the digital state. And you do need that CTO 369 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 5: to make the call at the end of the day 370 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 5: on what technology we're wanting. 371 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:46,400 Speaker 2: We do need to. 372 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 5: Make the calls to say, these are the finance systems, 373 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 5: this is how we're going to be joining up the government. 374 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 5: This is how we're going to be sharing data, This 375 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 5: is how we're going to be maintaining privacy. This is 376 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 5: where AI is going to be used, so that functionality, 377 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 5: that CTO role is extremely important to determine what the 378 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 5: digital state is. 379 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: And good to see more provisions around accountability here. So 380 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: there will be KPIs for each Chief Executive or each 381 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: government department to monitor their progress in line with that 382 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: target state. So it's good to see the Minister will 383 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: have power of veto over projects talk us through. Was 384 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: that something you suggested to them? 385 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was so. Look, we do want to be 386 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 3: much more coordinated. I think multi put it really lovely. 387 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 3: They're pulling the family of government together, but we're not 388 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 3: going to be total centralized commanding control. 389 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 4: The strength of the nesign. 390 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 3: Public service is the agility of individual agencies. But the 391 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 3: moment agencies buy or build technology for themselves in their 392 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 3: own requirements and it doesn't all add up to work 393 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 3: for the public service as a whole orphan new zionder 394 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:48,479 Speaker 3: So that's what we've got to change. So we need 395 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 3: agencies to not just buy a build for themselves, but 396 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 3: to buy a build for the public service. That's the 397 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,439 Speaker 3: target state, and so we'll be guiding that, we'll be 398 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 3: setting the direction. But yeah, we need KPIs, we need 399 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 3: the accountabilities and if we get to the point where 400 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 3: there's a tension between agency requirements and system requirements, we 401 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 3: need the ability for ministers to be exercise a decision. 402 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,360 Speaker 1: How has this gone down anecdotally with you know, as 403 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: you've socialized this with chief executives and now some would 404 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: say it's a bit of a paragraph BYDIA. Personally, I 405 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: think it's it's absolutely What we need is that realization 406 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: that because their budgets are tight, they realize they can 407 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: afford what's in the pipeline. 408 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, look, that's exactly right. 409 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 3: So I might talk about ceas and or hand to miles, 410 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 3: you can talk about some of the CEO as well. 411 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 3: So look, I think c's recognized now is the time, 412 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 3: that's the feedback we've got. So they've got questions about 413 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:39,919 Speaker 3: exactly how it will work, and so do we, and 414 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 3: we're going to answer those questions with them. So I've 415 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 3: got a session tomorrow with a bunch of cees to 416 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,719 Speaker 3: work this through. We've got to see you retreat on Friday. 417 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 3: We'll be talking about this as well. So you know, 418 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 3: we work quite collectively in the New Zealand and Public Service, 419 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 3: and that's in practice what we'll be doing. Of course, 420 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 3: the cees see the need for the public service to evolve. 421 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 3: They know both the fiscal position, so we have to 422 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 3: do something differently. But actually technology has evolved and changed 423 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 3: so that offers opportunities to do things differently too. So 424 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 3: I think there is a broad consensus that this is 425 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 3: the right direction, this is the right thing to do, 426 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 3: with a few questions about actually how will it work 427 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 3: or what will it mean? And that's our job over 428 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 3: the next three to six months is to build that 429 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 3: out with. 430 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 2: Them, right and presumably miles. 431 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: You know, if an agency has a real specific use 432 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: case for something and they go, look what you've got 433 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: on the off the shelf products set doesn't suit us, 434 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: just that they can still argue the case for that. 435 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think pragmatism is a thing that underpins this. Pragmatism. 436 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 5: Pragmatism pragmatism. The idea of the target state is to 437 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 5: give that line of direction, so right at the start 438 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 5: people know where there's going to be a little bit 439 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 5: of difficulty, and that's where we have the discussion. The 440 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 5: first thing is not bespoke, reusable, repeatable, common off the shelf, 441 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 5: don't build, so the market is full of good solutions there. 442 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 5: Let's use the market and this is where the private 443 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 5: sector plays a key role. 444 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 4: Zeting plays a key role. 445 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 5: Modular states play a key role, lower cost projects faster. 446 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 5: So we're looking at the paraalim ships quite a bit 447 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 5: here to support where we want to hit the target state. 448 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 5: So it'll be definitely, by exception, by some pretty in 449 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 5: depth discussion. If someone wants to go outside the target state, 450 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 5: there might be some specialist need. The tax system is specialist. 451 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 5: There are some certain health systems. But when you look 452 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 5: at a CRM, well, a CRM is a CRM. We 453 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 5: want to make sure we get a single view of 454 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 5: the customer. So let's make sure we consolidate the CRMs. 455 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 5: Let's make sure the finance systems operate to a gl. 456 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 5: Let's consolidate the finance systems. So there's just some pragmatic 457 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 5: things that we do in terms of the reference groups. 458 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 5: We have the CIO reference groups, we have deputy CE groups, 459 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 5: and I think the feedback in these is that it's 460 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 5: a natural conclusion in terms of joining up government. So 461 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 5: there's a lot of support, a lot of buy in. 462 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 5: The big agencies very keen on this, mainly because we 463 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 5: can leverage some of those existing investments as key things 464 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 5: that we can reuse and share. So there is a 465 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 5: lot of buy in and you know, there's a lot 466 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 5: of maturity when you look at some of the set 467 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 5: sees and the DC is there. 468 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 4: So pregmatism, pregmantism, pregmatism, Yeah, I think mind just picking 469 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 4: on a point miles is almost mentioned. 470 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 3: But just to be clear, we're not proposing that gcdo 471 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 3: buy and build everything, you know very much for seeing 472 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 3: ourselves as conductor of the orchestra, we're not the lead 473 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 3: violinist or so. Some of the big agencies will build 474 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,959 Speaker 3: things or buy things, but they'll do it for the 475 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 3: public service, but under a clear picture that we've built. 476 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 1: So yeah, and the idea of smaller, faster, more modular. 477 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: So you know, the proturement rules were updated. You know 478 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 1: that economic benefit clauses is very front and center and 479 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: near this expectation at New Zealand companies will get some 480 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: of that work. Presumably that's only going to increase the 481 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 1: lif theihood that I startups and our own tech companies 482 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:04,919 Speaker 1: can get into the procurement. 483 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely. 484 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 3: Look, we've got pretty good uptake by New Zealand firms 485 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 3: already of our procurement. So in terms of gcdo organized 486 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 3: common capabilities, about fifty five percent ghost of New Zealand 487 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 3: firms already. And when you go to marketplace, which is 488 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 3: our key channel, which is away from if you like, 489 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 3: some of the big infrastructure provision, it's about three quarters 490 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 3: of the spin through their ghost to New Zealand firms. 491 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,360 Speaker 3: So we've got good channels and market engagement already. But yes, 492 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 3: this modular, more itterative, smaller should create great opportunities for 493 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 3: innovation and the vendor market in New Zealand as well. 494 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 4: In terms of the public service. 495 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: And myles, it looks as though this approach has already 496 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: been factored into this all of Government app that is 497 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: under development to New Zealand companies Dave Clike and ZED 498 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: and Matter are currently building that tell us about what 499 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: you're trying to achieve with the all of Government app. 500 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 5: Sure, so if we start at digital identity, I think 501 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 5: that's a great point and we're had a look at 502 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 5: the paradigm shifts, and the paradigm shifts are the citizen, 503 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 5: the customer wants to be in control of their data. 504 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 5: We know that we want to go to a decentralized 505 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 5: way of how we manage a digital identity. We know 506 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 5: the private sector plays a big role when we start 507 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 5: looking at AMIL CFT lowering the compliance burden. We know 508 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 5: when we approve a document the costs are quite high, 509 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 5: the compliance costs are quite lengthy. So we looked at 510 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 5: all of that and that's what's moved us to as 511 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 5: well as the modular approach. So we've got a program 512 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 5: of work which looks at in all the government app 513 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 5: to enable the customer to be able to navigate services 514 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,360 Speaker 5: a lot more effectively. Imagine a time when you can 515 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,239 Speaker 5: go through the app and you can proactively look at 516 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 5: the services that you're entitled to. Imagine a time when 517 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 5: you can get the notifications and messaging through your mobile app, 518 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 5: can store your credential in your wallet, and so we've 519 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 5: got a good pathway around where we want to take 520 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 5: the app. I think it's an exciting journey where we 521 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 5: start moving the government to operate how the citizen and 522 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 5: how the customer wants to navigate these services. I mean, 523 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 5: we see it every day in the private sector banking, insurance. 524 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 5: People want to operate on their terms and that's what 525 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 5: we're doing. We're looking at how we operate to support 526 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 5: them and their life event in terms of their event 527 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 5: using the private sector getting the innovation there. This is 528 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 5: what the whole work program is all about. This is 529 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 5: no longer just a government thing. So sort of two 530 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 5: elements to it. 531 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: There's the app where literally every government department, your interaction 532 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: with them, you can keep an eye on that. It 533 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 1: could be me paying my GSD to IOD for instance, 534 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: it could be social developments, so that'll be there. But 535 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 1: then there's the identity verification and while it aspect, it 536 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 1: offered as well and you can keep a credential in 537 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: there and that ties into this framework that was passed 538 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: into legislation that has been in development for the last 539 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 1: couple of years which underpins all of that a safe 540 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: and secure way identifying yourself and verifying your ID without 541 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: having to go to a central database. It's all done 542 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: essentially on your. 543 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 2: Device, that's right. 544 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 5: And what we did accelerate the market on is with 545 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 5: the new Zealand Verify app. So the market when quite ready, 546 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 5: so we developed the verification app that's going to definitely 547 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 5: help things around hospitality industry. 548 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:20,919 Speaker 4: It's going to help a number. 549 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 5: Of different things The other thing that underpins it is 550 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 5: the international standards, so we know that cross jurisdictional work 551 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 5: is absolutely key. So when an international driver's license comes through, 552 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 5: we know we'll be. 553 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 4: Able to verify it. 554 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 5: So we're well advanced around, not only locally but internationally 555 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 5: as well. 556 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: And Paul, so where are we at in the timeframe 557 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: on the ail of government app when you're likely to 558 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:44,400 Speaker 1: see that launched? 559 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 3: We make a good progress, I think keep an eye 560 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 3: on social media. I think you'll see Minister Collins demonstrating 561 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 3: talking about this over the. 562 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 4: Next week or two about where we're up to, so 563 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 4: we'll have something built invisible by the end of the year. 564 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 3: I think they're kind of migrating services to it will 565 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 3: take a bit more time. So whatever pipeline is services, 566 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 3: and I think it should be clear as well, we're 567 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 3: not planning to put all government services on one. Actually, 568 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 3: we don't think that's going to suit all New Zealanders. 569 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 3: So I think the app will work well for the 570 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 3: less complex, the more transactional services and the kind of 571 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 3: migration of certizens that we'll have to look at where 572 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 3: agency that are up to in terms of their renewal 573 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 3: cycle and their transformation processes as well, So we will 574 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 3: be building functionality in it over a period of time. 575 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 3: And what we really want to get to is feedback 576 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 3: groups from customers tope. So rather than just building it 577 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 3: and placing it out there in a monoethic way, actually 578 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 3: build it literated, start to join services up. See what 579 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,360 Speaker 3: the feedback we can pick up from the customer interaction 580 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 3: with it is, what's working? What do we need to redesign? 581 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 3: So we want to see this more, if you like, 582 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 3: over time start to evolve further, and we're quite excited because. 583 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 4: We're not entirely sure where it will get to it 584 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 4: in some. 585 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 3: Way, but we do expect to see other channels maintain 586 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 3: and still to develop other channels as well. It won't 587 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 3: just be the single place for customers to go. 588 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: To, and the digital identity framework underpinning it can be 589 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: lies by private organizations Totland as well. 590 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 2: So how is that going? 591 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: What's been the appetite to get accredited to be part 592 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: of that? 593 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 3: Starting to really pick up momentum. We think over the 594 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 3: next twelve to eighteen months we'll get lots of interests. 595 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 3: Two great use cases for me. One is we've got 596 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 3: digital driver's licenses and Queensland. Now we'll have Queensland is 597 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 3: tuning up to a rental car company in New Zealand 598 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 3: with their digital driver's license. So that's the Verify app 599 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 3: that Males talked about. That will enable New Zealand businesses 600 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 3: to recognize and acknowledge an international digital driver's license. The 601 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 3: other use cases my young adult children wondering around town 602 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 3: with their passports on a Saturday night proven how old 603 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 3: are to get into the pub's terrifies men that carry 604 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 3: their passport around it. In the future, what they're about 605 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 3: to do is have their phone, which they never without, 606 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 3: and on their phone will be their proof of age 607 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 3: and their wallet, and they won't have to disclose where 608 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 3: they live, their middle name, everything that they can just 609 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 3: simply show who they are and how old they are. 610 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 3: And that's the power of that. And so I think 611 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 3: we'll see real interests from the private sector. We're actually 612 00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 3: moles and I were invited to meet with the banker's 613 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 3: associate a couple of weeks ago, so seventy to eighteen 614 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 3: banks from across the country there took about digital identity. 615 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 3: So there is quite a lot of appetite in the 616 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 3: private sector and over the next twelve to two ten months, 617 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 3: I think the Zanders will start to see what that 618 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 3: looks like and see. 619 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 2: A real impact and miles. 620 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: Eventually, I guess this would replace real me which people 621 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: are using to apply for a passport, things like that 622 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: renewer passport online. 623 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 4: Yeah. 624 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 5: I think there's a moderate approach that we're looking to take, 625 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 5: so there'll be less reliance in terms of some of 626 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 5: the existing functionality. And as we move to the wallet, 627 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 5: that's where the movement for the credential will actually be. 628 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: And you're talking about overseas driver's license in Queensland and 629 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: being able to show your driver's license on your phone, 630 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: So I guess the foundations are there to roll. 631 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 2: That out for our own driver's licenses. 632 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 5: That's the plan, and we definitely want to put as 633 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 5: many credentials in there. We could be certifications, it could 634 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 5: be a number of different things, so we'll have a 635 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 5: pipeline of activity. 636 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: So potentially you know, in future a few a university 637 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: student for instance, and you've done a degree, so you 638 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: could have that credential in there. 639 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 4: We want to credentialize everything. Yeah, so. 640 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 3: We love the educational achievements to identity, proof of income, 641 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 3: your bank account, credentials that come from public sector and 642 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 3: private sector. For the New Zealand's are better carrying their 643 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 3: while and use when they need them as opposed to 644 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:24,719 Speaker 3: getting on a call center and asking for a bit 645 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 3: of information to be emailed to them, which is actually 646 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 3: their information already. 647 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: And look, this is going on around the world in 648 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: different ways. Australia's put a big amount of investment into 649 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: this and it's really perminent over there because of the 650 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: legislative changes they're making around age verification for websites that's 651 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: fast approaching December tenth. They want to have that system 652 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: in place for social media networks, you know the under 653 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: sixteen ban. 654 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 2: You're also looking at. 655 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: It for search engines, verifying your age when you log 656 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 1: into a search engine so you can't just search all 657 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: random violence and pornography and the line. And for adult 658 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: websites coming next year as well. We've seen that in 659 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: the UK several US states. That has been broached here 660 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: in parliament a member's bill. So is that something you 661 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: envisage if parliamentarians decide that's the way we want to 662 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: go In New Zealand, this is a system that could 663 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: in that age verification totally. 664 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 3: The technology will enable that. So and you're quite right. 665 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 3: I mean there's a select but inquiry running at the moment. 666 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 3: Ministry of Education is leading some work. So government is 667 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 3: currently contemplating and they'll make some decision whether they want 668 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 3: to do it or not. And if they decide they 669 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 3: want to do it, then we'll make sure that there's 670 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 3: the enabling technology in place and able to support that. 671 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: So, in terms of miles of the future of governments 672 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: and how the experience is going to change for a consumer, 673 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: I think people will love the convenience of being able 674 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: to open an app, even if it's only a subset 675 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: of government departments, if it's the ones that are really 676 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: pregnent to your life and keeping on top of your 677 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: personal admin, they love that. There will be because I 678 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: see you know, the Social Investment Agency is involved with this. 679 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: This as part of the data leadership for digital service 680 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: delivery that you're involved in and stewarding. They will have 681 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: input into that. A lot of people will be thinking 682 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: they're putting on my data in one place to surveil me. 683 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: So what do you say to people who have that concern? 684 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 5: I think if we look at what underpins all of 685 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 5: this We know that a lot of jurisdictions have done 686 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 5: a lot of things. 687 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 4: There's been a lot of challenges, and. 688 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 5: What we want to do is left for off the challenges, 689 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 5: not reinvent anything, not trying to look at being the 690 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 5: most leading edge in terms of that, we're making it up. 691 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 5: So we're looking at leapfrogging and making sure we're learning 692 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 5: from the challenges. This isn't about a big brother thing. 693 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 5: This is about establishing what we've got now. It's respecting 694 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 5: the privacy. It's making sure that the citizen, the customer 695 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 5: is in control of their data. What they do with 696 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,239 Speaker 5: it will be managed through the digital identity side, and 697 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 5: it puts the person into power of their data. And 698 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 5: that's the underlying principles of what we're aiming here. 699 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 3: I mean, we certainly won't be able to monitor the 700 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 3: app in the sense of course we'll see where there's 701 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 3: a transaction point and a customer, but actually what people 702 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 3: are choosing to hold in their wallet, it's their information. 703 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 3: We weren't not going to look into their phone or 704 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 3: anything like that, so there'll be no surveillance. The reference 705 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 3: to Sia and the Chinet paper is really about they've 706 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 3: got a mandate to look at an investment approach across government. 707 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 3: They need information to better be pulled together and exchanged. 708 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 3: We need information to be able to be pulled together 709 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 3: in exchange to enable customers to access services. 710 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 4: And the question is we. 711 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 3: Probably don't need two competing forms of infrastructure to enable 712 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 3: that to happen. So we're to the interest a line 713 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 3: that when we think about the digital infrastructure and the 714 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,240 Speaker 3: data standards, an approach that enable data to move around 715 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 3: the public sector, how do we do that together from 716 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 3: our perspective with customer consent in a privacy and secure way. 717 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 3: For SIA, I'm sure they'll be focused on those things too, 718 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 3: but for a different purpose. 719 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 4: So just where we work together. 720 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 1: And as you point out in the paper, Singapore, Estonia 721 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: in particularly has been a leader and centralizing this sort 722 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 1: of thing, and it has paid divid for those sort 723 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: of small advanced economies, isn't it. 724 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely. 725 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 3: Again, they were in Singapore with us last week, so 726 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 3: we've definitely been learning from them and I think the 727 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 3: Estonian's amazing what they've done. But we probably wouldn't just 728 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 3: build one thing again in the setup of our public 729 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 3: service and services, and so we might have multiple data 730 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 3: exchange infrastructure across different sectors, for example, the social sector 731 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 3: and the environment sector for lots of good reasons. But 732 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 3: we can still learn from them about how they've done 733 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 3: it in terms of how we might then do it. 734 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, a lot going on, some really positive changes happening, 735 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: and I think changes out hopefully would whether any change 736 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: of government as well. You get the sense that there 737 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 1: is bipartisan support for what you've proposed. 738 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 4: Here, Yeah, certainly. I mean in the role. 739 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 3: While I've been in the role, I've worked under both 740 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 3: Labour led administrations and national administrations and there has not 741 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 3: been a significant difference in terms of underlying approach. It's 742 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 3: really just been focused on speed and if we digitize things, 743 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,959 Speaker 3: that should enable governments to make their policy choices more easy, 744 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 3: so that they should all sport digitalization and then they 745 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 3: can make the different passage choices across that. So as 746 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:07,919 Speaker 3: we start to thinking about what services we pull together, 747 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 3: how we offer. 748 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 4: Them in different ways. 749 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 3: Different governments might prioritize different services, whether it's services for 750 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 3: businesses or services in the social sector, but the underpinning 751 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 3: digital should be agnostic of both of those people and 752 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 3: costing us a lot less fingers crossed. 753 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 1: Yes, Paul Miles, thanks so much for coming on the 754 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,479 Speaker 1: Business of Tech and good luck for all this change 755 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: that's underway. 756 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 4: Core. Thanks be always a pleasure, So thanks to. 757 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 1: Paul James and Miles Ward for talking through some of 758 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,800 Speaker 1: the changes that are coming to IT, procurement and government. 759 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: Since I recorded this episode, there's been some interesting feedback 760 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: to the cabinet paper, which I'll link to in the 761 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: show notes. Some good discussion on my LinkedIn post about this, 762 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,240 Speaker 1: people positive about it, but also pointing out the risks 763 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: of a one size fits all approach to IT systems 764 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,720 Speaker 1: and services, which is a valid concern. 765 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 2: As Paul and Miles pointed out. 766 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,759 Speaker 1: Is still scope for agencies to argue the case for 767 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 1: particular technologies. You know. It's really aimed at the stuff 768 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,800 Speaker 1: that's common to every department, customer relationship management, software, Hayroll, 769 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: enterprise resource planning. The duplication around some of this stuff 770 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,319 Speaker 1: in recent years has been mind boggling. Ben Read, a 771 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,839 Speaker 1: regular guest on the Business of Tech, posed a couple 772 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 1: of interesting questions which I didn't get to in the 773 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: interview other than talking about the AI sovereignty issues, but 774 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: I'll follow up with DIA on them. For instance, he 775 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: asked how much IT procurement going forward will mandate open 776 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 1: source and data portability rather than proprietary and locked in 777 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: platforms and applications. And what about the all of government 778 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: IT architecture underpinning all of this is a fully open 779 00:37:55,239 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: common API or application programming interface to all of government 780 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: services even been considered in all of this. 781 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,280 Speaker 2: Really good questions here from Ben. 782 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: Let me know what you think of the tech procurement shakeup. 783 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: Will it unlock innovation and improve digital services whilst saving 784 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 1: us money? Or is it potentially creating a new set 785 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: of headaches for us? 786 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:15,360 Speaker 2: Get in touch. 787 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 1: You'll find me on LinkedIn or email me. I'm on 788 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: Peter at Petergriffin dot co dot m Z. That's it 789 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: for this episode. Thanks for tuning in. Catch you next 790 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 1: week on iHeartRadio or via your favorite podcast app with 791 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 1: another episode of the Business of Tech. 792 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:32,320 Speaker 2: Till then, have a great week.