1 00:00:19,059 --> 00:00:22,139 Speaker 1: Kyota at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page. 2 00:00:22,379 --> 00:00:24,819 Speaker 1: We're taking a week breakover summer, but to help build 3 00:00:24,859 --> 00:00:27,859 Speaker 1: the gap, we're re issuing some of our most significant 4 00:00:27,859 --> 00:00:31,379 Speaker 1: episodes of twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front 5 00:00:31,379 --> 00:00:34,098 Speaker 1: Page team. Thanks for listening and we look forward to 6 00:00:34,099 --> 00:00:42,978 Speaker 1: being back with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six. Kiyota, 7 00:00:43,059 --> 00:00:46,138 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 8 00:00:46,259 --> 00:00:54,139 Speaker 1: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. ACT Party 9 00:00:54,219 --> 00:00:57,859 Speaker 1: leader David Seymour will become a New Zealand's Deputy Prime 10 00:00:57,859 --> 00:01:02,059 Speaker 1: Minister tomorrow, taking over from Winston Peters, will be the 11 00:01:02,179 --> 00:01:06,339 Speaker 1: nineteenth person to be the country's second in command. First 12 00:01:06,339 --> 00:01:09,619 Speaker 1: elected to Parliament in twenty fourteen, the last decade and 13 00:01:09,699 --> 00:01:13,699 Speaker 1: a bit has seen Seymour's meteoric rise from being his 14 00:01:13,859 --> 00:01:18,459 Speaker 1: party's sole mpte and now sitting alongside ten colleagues after 15 00:01:18,539 --> 00:01:21,859 Speaker 1: Act's best ever result in the twenty twenty three election. 16 00:01:22,259 --> 00:01:25,539 Speaker 1: That result has allowed him to push through big changes 17 00:01:25,619 --> 00:01:30,539 Speaker 1: around issues like regulation and government spending, but championing legislations 18 00:01:30,538 --> 00:01:33,459 Speaker 1: such as the Treaty Principles Bill has also made him 19 00:01:33,499 --> 00:01:37,419 Speaker 1: a lightning rod for controversy and backlash. Today on the 20 00:01:37,419 --> 00:01:40,259 Speaker 1: front page, Seymour joins us to talk about his new role, 21 00:01:40,419 --> 00:01:50,339 Speaker 1: backlash has faced regulations and his thoughts on the opposition. So, David, 22 00:01:50,579 --> 00:01:53,619 Speaker 1: this deputy Prime minister handover has been on the cards 23 00:01:53,619 --> 00:01:54,579 Speaker 1: for some time now. 24 00:01:54,619 --> 00:01:56,539 Speaker 2: Are you excited about this change? Yeah? 25 00:01:56,538 --> 00:01:58,698 Speaker 3: Look, it's one of those things you probably didn't think 26 00:01:58,699 --> 00:02:01,499 Speaker 3: would happen in your life, but here we are. I 27 00:02:01,538 --> 00:02:03,939 Speaker 3: think it's good for New Zealand. Shows the few bit quirky, 28 00:02:04,019 --> 00:02:05,779 Speaker 3: but if your heart's in the right place and you 29 00:02:05,859 --> 00:02:08,138 Speaker 3: put in the work, you know it's crowded house, so 30 00:02:08,339 --> 00:02:09,219 Speaker 3: you can get somewhere. 31 00:02:09,258 --> 00:02:11,299 Speaker 2: And can you believe it's come around so quickly? 32 00:02:11,419 --> 00:02:11,619 Speaker 1: Though? 33 00:02:11,619 --> 00:02:12,099 Speaker 2: As well? 34 00:02:12,379 --> 00:02:15,138 Speaker 3: I think it's just one of those times in life 35 00:02:15,179 --> 00:02:17,978 Speaker 3: where you know, everything goes at a million miles an hour. 36 00:02:18,339 --> 00:02:22,219 Speaker 3: Idea reading on Sunday, Cabinet on Monday, Caucus on Tuesday, 37 00:02:22,299 --> 00:02:25,979 Speaker 3: question time on Wednesday, go campaigning on Thursday, EPSOM on Friday, 38 00:02:25,979 --> 00:02:28,258 Speaker 3: have Saturday often, rinse and repeat, and it's pretty much 39 00:02:28,299 --> 00:02:30,139 Speaker 3: what it's been like for the last seventy weeks. 40 00:02:30,258 --> 00:02:32,379 Speaker 1: Do you expect this to be a shift in power 41 00:02:32,379 --> 00:02:34,619 Speaker 1: in the coalition? Is actor in the front seat now 42 00:02:34,659 --> 00:02:37,179 Speaker 1: alongside National or has it been kind of a three 43 00:02:37,219 --> 00:02:38,939 Speaker 1: way from the get go. 44 00:02:39,499 --> 00:02:43,499 Speaker 3: No, I don't think so. The coalition is a very 45 00:02:43,538 --> 00:02:46,578 Speaker 3: respectful one. Everyone has a role to play, everyone has 46 00:02:46,619 --> 00:02:48,939 Speaker 3: their own interest. I don't think it's fair to say 47 00:02:48,978 --> 00:02:51,699 Speaker 3: that New Zealand First have been in any way leading 48 00:02:51,858 --> 00:02:55,179 Speaker 3: act as a larger party, and that has been the 49 00:02:55,219 --> 00:02:57,379 Speaker 3: case for the last eighteen months and will be for 50 00:02:57,418 --> 00:02:58,418 Speaker 3: the next eighteen months. 51 00:02:58,538 --> 00:03:00,538 Speaker 2: Are you happy how the coalitions work together? 52 00:03:00,819 --> 00:03:04,298 Speaker 3: Yeah? I think the coalition has been dangerously united. Our 53 00:03:04,339 --> 00:03:06,538 Speaker 3: opponents thought it would all fall apart. 54 00:03:06,418 --> 00:03:07,659 Speaker 2: The Coalition of chaos. 55 00:03:07,779 --> 00:03:09,619 Speaker 3: Well, they said all those things, didn't they, But they 56 00:03:09,779 --> 00:03:12,659 Speaker 3: underestimated that even though we're all quite different, we're all 57 00:03:12,739 --> 00:03:15,379 Speaker 3: quite committed to trying to dig New Zealand out of 58 00:03:15,418 --> 00:03:18,779 Speaker 3: a pretty big hole. And look where the crime race, relation, 59 00:03:19,619 --> 00:03:22,738 Speaker 3: the cost of living, the healthcare system. I mean, hell, 60 00:03:22,779 --> 00:03:23,859 Speaker 3: there's a lot of shuffling to do. 61 00:03:24,019 --> 00:03:28,779 Speaker 1: Winston Peters has ruled out working with the Chris Hepkins permanently. 62 00:03:28,978 --> 00:03:31,578 Speaker 2: What about you? Would you roll out working with Hepkins? 63 00:03:31,739 --> 00:03:34,739 Speaker 3: Well, the difference is I don't need to say it. Look, 64 00:03:34,979 --> 00:03:39,219 Speaker 3: I mean this is a guy who was the police 65 00:03:39,299 --> 00:03:42,099 Speaker 3: minister when the crime got out of control. He was 66 00:03:42,099 --> 00:03:45,058 Speaker 3: in charge of the COVID response, which speaks for itself. 67 00:03:45,179 --> 00:03:48,459 Speaker 3: He was the Minister of Education when kids stopped going 68 00:03:48,459 --> 00:03:52,019 Speaker 3: to school on mass and he was the Minister of 69 00:03:52,059 --> 00:03:54,419 Speaker 3: Health when the health budget went up sixty percent and 70 00:03:54,459 --> 00:03:57,219 Speaker 3: the outcomes got worse. So you know, this guy has 71 00:03:57,259 --> 00:03:59,939 Speaker 3: got the opposite of the Midas touch. I think they 72 00:03:59,979 --> 00:04:04,099 Speaker 3: call him a pooh Midas and he's suddenly done some damage. 73 00:04:04,179 --> 00:04:06,099 Speaker 2: So you wouldn't work with him, Well, no. 74 00:04:06,299 --> 00:04:09,139 Speaker 3: Because that would require him to be working, and as 75 00:04:09,179 --> 00:04:10,659 Speaker 3: far as I can see, he doesn't work. 76 00:04:10,819 --> 00:04:12,739 Speaker 1: Is there anyone else that you wouldn't work with that 77 00:04:12,779 --> 00:04:14,099 Speaker 1: you'd roll out working with? 78 00:04:14,539 --> 00:04:19,899 Speaker 3: I am constantly astonished that our country has a political 79 00:04:19,939 --> 00:04:23,939 Speaker 3: party that is named for a race of people, that 80 00:04:24,219 --> 00:04:29,059 Speaker 3: casts everything in racial terms and is somehow given a 81 00:04:29,059 --> 00:04:32,979 Speaker 3: free pass. Funnily enough, the fact that Tiparty Maori are 82 00:04:33,019 --> 00:04:36,579 Speaker 3: held to a lower standard, not just by other politicians, 83 00:04:36,619 --> 00:04:40,019 Speaker 3: not just by the media, but actually by themselves, I 84 00:04:40,059 --> 00:04:44,299 Speaker 3: think is really shameful and we need to start working 85 00:04:44,379 --> 00:04:48,379 Speaker 3: towards a vision of New Zealand as a nation of 86 00:04:48,459 --> 00:04:52,699 Speaker 3: human beings with hopes and dreams, rather than different collectives 87 00:04:52,979 --> 00:04:56,219 Speaker 3: share and common ancestry and forever divided, which seems to 88 00:04:56,259 --> 00:05:00,738 Speaker 3: be their vision of Tongua ten Tonguai are different partners 89 00:05:00,739 --> 00:05:02,899 Speaker 3: and on each side of a compact, and it's never 90 00:05:02,899 --> 00:05:04,979 Speaker 3: worked anywhere in the world, but it's been disastrous where 91 00:05:04,979 --> 00:05:05,539 Speaker 3: it's gone wrong. 92 00:05:05,619 --> 00:05:09,099 Speaker 1: Well, speaking of the Treaty Principal's Bill, I mean, I'm 93 00:05:09,179 --> 00:05:11,019 Speaker 1: sure you're sick of talking about it. 94 00:05:10,899 --> 00:05:11,819 Speaker 2: But no, not at all. 95 00:05:12,819 --> 00:05:14,699 Speaker 1: We haven't had you on since the bill was actually 96 00:05:14,699 --> 00:05:18,739 Speaker 1: officially voted down. Are you surprised by how much backlashed 97 00:05:18,739 --> 00:05:21,819 Speaker 1: there was towards the bill over the last year? 98 00:05:22,059 --> 00:05:25,899 Speaker 3: Not at all. We took on a direction in this 99 00:05:26,019 --> 00:05:30,459 Speaker 3: country which is toxic and corrosive, but also quite profitable 100 00:05:30,579 --> 00:05:34,459 Speaker 3: for a lot of people. If you think about John Tomaherti, 101 00:05:34,779 --> 00:05:39,819 Speaker 3: who is behind Toyitu, which is really just the Maori party, 102 00:05:39,859 --> 00:05:43,299 Speaker 3: who makes a huge amount of money through the wiper 103 00:05:43,419 --> 00:05:47,019 Speaker 3: Aida Trust. They're a major provider. My experience of working 104 00:05:47,059 --> 00:05:50,139 Speaker 3: with him is that he believes that they should not 105 00:05:50,299 --> 00:05:54,899 Speaker 3: be accountable for what they deliver on behalf of the 106 00:05:54,979 --> 00:05:59,259 Speaker 3: tax payer, because the treaty elevates them above accountability to 107 00:05:59,339 --> 00:06:01,659 Speaker 3: the crown. They're rather a partner to the Crown. I 108 00:06:01,699 --> 00:06:04,539 Speaker 3: had this whole experience with John Tomahera signing up to 109 00:06:04,619 --> 00:06:08,059 Speaker 3: run a partnership school or charter school kudahodua call it 110 00:06:08,139 --> 00:06:11,459 Speaker 3: what you will, and then trying to renegotiate the contract 111 00:06:11,459 --> 00:06:14,139 Speaker 3: at the last minute for no accountability. Now, if you're 112 00:06:14,179 --> 00:06:18,579 Speaker 3: a person who believes that you basically are a parallel state, 113 00:06:18,739 --> 00:06:22,339 Speaker 3: that you are not accountable to the same government and 114 00:06:22,419 --> 00:06:25,699 Speaker 3: Crown and taxpayer as everyone else, then of course, when 115 00:06:25,699 --> 00:06:28,299 Speaker 3: someone comes along with a treaty principal's bill that says, hey, 116 00:06:28,299 --> 00:06:30,499 Speaker 3: guess what, folks were all equal? You don't like that 117 00:06:30,699 --> 00:06:32,459 Speaker 3: very much. And I look at some of those people 118 00:06:32,539 --> 00:06:35,139 Speaker 3: who came and gave submissions, know how many of them 119 00:06:35,379 --> 00:06:40,099 Speaker 3: are lawyers or advocates, advocating in a world where as 120 00:06:40,139 --> 00:06:42,819 Speaker 3: a treaty partner, some people have different rights from others. 121 00:06:42,819 --> 00:06:45,139 Speaker 3: Then I come along and say, guess what, folks, everyone 122 00:06:45,139 --> 00:06:48,899 Speaker 3: has equal rights. That will get you a backlash. But 123 00:06:48,939 --> 00:06:51,699 Speaker 3: at the end of the day, because a lot of 124 00:06:51,739 --> 00:06:56,979 Speaker 3: the opponents were covering for I guess vested interests that 125 00:06:57,019 --> 00:07:00,059 Speaker 3: they masqueraded as moral principle, they weren't able to put 126 00:07:00,179 --> 00:07:04,419 Speaker 3: forward convincing arguments, and you watch that debate on the 127 00:07:04,419 --> 00:07:07,179 Speaker 3: second reading. Yeah, we lost the vote, but we won 128 00:07:07,219 --> 00:07:10,979 Speaker 3: the argument because nobody who was against the bill said 129 00:07:11,019 --> 00:07:14,699 Speaker 3: the bill says X, I don't believe X, because Y, 130 00:07:14,779 --> 00:07:17,899 Speaker 3: I instead believe that New Zealand should be run according 131 00:07:17,939 --> 00:07:21,059 Speaker 3: to Z. You didn't hear that X, Y Z. You 132 00:07:21,219 --> 00:07:23,779 Speaker 3: just heard lots of haste and rhetoric. On the other hand, 133 00:07:23,979 --> 00:07:26,219 Speaker 3: the idea that Parliament has the rights to make laws, 134 00:07:26,619 --> 00:07:29,779 Speaker 3: that Parliament and the government of the obligation to uphold 135 00:07:29,859 --> 00:07:33,179 Speaker 3: all people's rights and duties, and that all people's rights 136 00:07:33,179 --> 00:07:37,019 Speaker 3: and duties are equal. Those three principles worth. No one 137 00:07:37,059 --> 00:07:37,859 Speaker 3: laid a glove on them. 138 00:07:37,899 --> 00:07:41,379 Speaker 1: Well. We had British philosopher Ac Grayling on the podcast 139 00:07:41,379 --> 00:07:44,299 Speaker 1: a few weeks ago when he was here for the Writers' Festival. 140 00:07:44,339 --> 00:07:48,339 Speaker 1: He said, to treat people equally is not always to 141 00:07:48,459 --> 00:07:49,499 Speaker 1: treat them fairly. 142 00:07:50,299 --> 00:07:53,419 Speaker 4: If you had an Olympic athlete who needed five thousand 143 00:07:53,419 --> 00:07:56,459 Speaker 4: calories a day, and you had a little old lady 144 00:07:56,499 --> 00:07:59,499 Speaker 4: who needed fifteen hundred calories a day, and you forced 145 00:07:59,539 --> 00:08:01,779 Speaker 4: them to eat the same number of calories let's say 146 00:08:01,819 --> 00:08:04,859 Speaker 4: three thousand calories a day each, you're unfair to both. 147 00:08:05,299 --> 00:08:08,099 Speaker 4: You're treating them equally, but you're unfair to both. Equity 148 00:08:08,499 --> 00:08:13,979 Speaker 4: or fairness is the goal, not just crude equality. However, 149 00:08:14,099 --> 00:08:17,459 Speaker 4: equality matters when it comes to what are sometimes called 150 00:08:17,459 --> 00:08:21,539 Speaker 4: it equality of concern. So people should be treated equally 151 00:08:21,979 --> 00:08:22,699 Speaker 4: before the law. 152 00:08:23,219 --> 00:08:24,539 Speaker 2: Now, how would you respond to that? 153 00:08:24,619 --> 00:08:27,459 Speaker 1: Because I know that Act believes the Bill promises equal 154 00:08:27,579 --> 00:08:30,939 Speaker 1: rights for all New Zealanders, but would that still be fair? 155 00:08:31,259 --> 00:08:31,459 Speaker 5: Well? 156 00:08:31,499 --> 00:08:36,179 Speaker 3: I went to see Ac Grayling because I actually quoted 157 00:08:36,218 --> 00:08:40,499 Speaker 3: his book Towards the Light of Liberty in my maiden 158 00:08:40,578 --> 00:08:43,819 Speaker 3: statement to Parliament, and I was so disappointed with the 159 00:08:43,859 --> 00:08:46,379 Speaker 3: speech he gave his I think in the last ten 160 00:08:46,419 --> 00:08:50,299 Speaker 3: to fifteen years he's deteriorated from being quite a principal 161 00:08:50,338 --> 00:08:52,738 Speaker 3: person to an apologist, which is a real shame because 162 00:08:52,738 --> 00:08:55,578 Speaker 3: I quoted him in my speech first speech to Parliament. However, 163 00:08:55,699 --> 00:09:01,339 Speaker 3: putting him aside, it's possible to address inequities amongst people 164 00:09:01,458 --> 00:09:04,339 Speaker 3: without categorizing us into racial groups. I just give you 165 00:09:04,379 --> 00:09:08,098 Speaker 3: one little example. We have recently changed balcancer screening from 166 00:09:08,618 --> 00:09:13,179 Speaker 3: sixty years old for European people and fifty years old 167 00:09:13,259 --> 00:09:16,019 Speaker 3: for mari and Pacific people to just fifty eight for 168 00:09:16,059 --> 00:09:18,939 Speaker 3: all people. And why because the data is really clear 169 00:09:19,179 --> 00:09:22,578 Speaker 3: people have the same chance of contracting bowl cancer for 170 00:09:22,738 --> 00:09:27,179 Speaker 3: any given age, regardless of their ancestry. So not only 171 00:09:27,259 --> 00:09:31,619 Speaker 3: are we better targeting need because fifty nine year olds 172 00:09:31,738 --> 00:09:34,459 Speaker 3: and fifty eight year olds who are European and have 173 00:09:34,618 --> 00:09:39,379 Speaker 3: the same risk now gets access, we are also removing 174 00:09:39,419 --> 00:09:43,259 Speaker 3: the ickiness of having to partition the population based on 175 00:09:43,338 --> 00:09:46,019 Speaker 3: their ancestry. I don't want that ackiness. I just want 176 00:09:46,059 --> 00:09:49,218 Speaker 3: to treat each person as a fellow human being and 177 00:09:49,819 --> 00:09:52,419 Speaker 3: deal with people based on their actual need rather than 178 00:09:52,419 --> 00:09:53,138 Speaker 3: their ancestry. 179 00:09:53,218 --> 00:09:56,978 Speaker 1: There are worse health outcomes though, for multi and PACIFICA 180 00:09:57,139 --> 00:09:58,458 Speaker 1: in certain circumstances. 181 00:09:58,498 --> 00:10:01,659 Speaker 3: Though, isn't there That is true? But you've said something 182 00:10:01,699 --> 00:10:04,499 Speaker 3: that you may not have realized. You've also said that 183 00:10:04,539 --> 00:10:09,579 Speaker 3: your preferred lens for partitioning human beings is race. Actually, 184 00:10:09,699 --> 00:10:12,939 Speaker 3: there are differences between rich and poor. There are differences 185 00:10:12,978 --> 00:10:16,299 Speaker 3: based on education. There are differences based on whether people 186 00:10:16,379 --> 00:10:18,858 Speaker 3: choose to spoke so it's There are differences based on 187 00:10:19,059 --> 00:10:21,738 Speaker 3: dietary There are so many different ways that you can 188 00:10:21,779 --> 00:10:25,619 Speaker 3: categorize people. I just reject choosing one, which is quite clumsy, 189 00:10:26,098 --> 00:10:29,179 Speaker 3: quite iicky, and doesn't actually get us to target the 190 00:10:29,218 --> 00:10:30,179 Speaker 3: people in greatest need. 191 00:10:39,819 --> 00:10:42,059 Speaker 1: If we move on to the budget twenty twenty five, now, 192 00:10:42,098 --> 00:10:44,419 Speaker 1: it feels like a key message from this budget was 193 00:10:44,458 --> 00:10:45,498 Speaker 1: that people need to. 194 00:10:45,458 --> 00:10:47,019 Speaker 2: Do more for themselves. 195 00:10:47,179 --> 00:10:49,099 Speaker 1: So look at the key we saver change is that 196 00:10:49,299 --> 00:10:51,619 Speaker 1: seems to be signaling that people need to do a 197 00:10:51,618 --> 00:10:54,978 Speaker 1: bit more for themselves to save for retirement rather than 198 00:10:55,098 --> 00:10:57,218 Speaker 1: relying on the government contributions. 199 00:10:57,259 --> 00:11:01,378 Speaker 3: Is that a fair takeaway, Well, it's probably a clarification 200 00:11:01,738 --> 00:11:05,659 Speaker 3: of the situation. You see before people were getting the 201 00:11:05,699 --> 00:11:09,179 Speaker 3: five hundred and twenty dollars, but it was all being borrowed. 202 00:11:09,338 --> 00:11:12,138 Speaker 3: Every extra dollar the government spends at the moment is 203 00:11:12,259 --> 00:11:15,699 Speaker 3: part of the deficit, and therefore the debt Management Office 204 00:11:15,699 --> 00:11:17,899 Speaker 3: at the Treasury has to go out to the market 205 00:11:17,939 --> 00:11:21,699 Speaker 3: and say will you loan some money? Now. Sure, it 206 00:11:21,738 --> 00:11:24,259 Speaker 3: feels like something was being done for you because you 207 00:11:24,299 --> 00:11:26,939 Speaker 3: were getting that five hundred and twenty dollars, but also 208 00:11:27,578 --> 00:11:31,139 Speaker 3: your future tax bill or money that's not available for 209 00:11:31,179 --> 00:11:34,338 Speaker 3: your future healthcare or some other benefit was also being 210 00:11:34,379 --> 00:11:36,859 Speaker 3: taken away. You may not have heard of the Debt 211 00:11:36,899 --> 00:11:39,458 Speaker 3: Management Office at Treasury, but that's where it was happening. 212 00:11:39,939 --> 00:11:44,059 Speaker 3: So I think what we've really done rather than saying 213 00:11:44,419 --> 00:11:49,179 Speaker 3: making people more reliant on themselves. We've just made it 214 00:11:49,218 --> 00:11:52,699 Speaker 3: more transparent that the government cannot actually solve as many 215 00:11:52,699 --> 00:11:56,179 Speaker 3: problems as may have been promised under our predecessors. 216 00:11:56,419 --> 00:11:59,738 Speaker 1: The Regulatory Standards Bill is the next big bill from 217 00:11:59,738 --> 00:12:02,539 Speaker 1: the Act Party. I know, I see you grinning. This 218 00:12:02,578 --> 00:12:05,618 Speaker 1: is a big area for you as Regulations Minister. It's 219 00:12:05,659 --> 00:12:08,859 Speaker 1: going through Parliament at the moment. Can you explain what 220 00:12:09,019 --> 00:12:12,218 Speaker 1: it is to people who may have only heard of 221 00:12:12,259 --> 00:12:13,098 Speaker 1: it in passing? 222 00:12:13,259 --> 00:12:16,179 Speaker 3: Sure? Well, go back to our core problem. Why are 223 00:12:16,218 --> 00:12:18,899 Speaker 3: we poor? We are compared with Australia, in fact, can 224 00:12:18,939 --> 00:12:21,659 Speaker 3: compaired with most of the specific rim. We are a 225 00:12:21,738 --> 00:12:25,699 Speaker 3: comparatively poor country and that hits in so many ways. 226 00:12:26,098 --> 00:12:28,699 Speaker 3: Only to go through them all, but it dispirits people. 227 00:12:28,738 --> 00:12:32,339 Speaker 3: It's these younger people leaving the country and particularly when 228 00:12:32,338 --> 00:12:34,859 Speaker 3: it comes to housing poverty, you're being able to afford 229 00:12:34,858 --> 00:12:37,419 Speaker 3: your own place. So that isn't my view, our big problem. 230 00:12:37,539 --> 00:12:40,859 Speaker 3: The government has two basic kinds of activity. One is 231 00:12:40,899 --> 00:12:42,939 Speaker 3: taxing and spending money. So we just talked a bit 232 00:12:42,939 --> 00:12:46,139 Speaker 3: about that, and we have a pretty good system for 233 00:12:46,218 --> 00:12:49,299 Speaker 3: publishing the accounts, showing people who's responsible for what and 234 00:12:49,338 --> 00:12:50,979 Speaker 3: what results are they getting and how much debt are 235 00:12:51,019 --> 00:12:52,979 Speaker 3: they taking on them. You may not agree with everything 236 00:12:53,019 --> 00:12:55,059 Speaker 3: the government does, but it's pretty easy to find out. 237 00:12:55,139 --> 00:12:57,299 Speaker 3: It's pretty easy for the media to report it, pretty 238 00:12:57,299 --> 00:12:59,858 Speaker 3: easy for voters to make decisions if they like it 239 00:12:59,939 --> 00:13:01,978 Speaker 3: or don't like it. The other thing that the government 240 00:13:02,019 --> 00:13:05,139 Speaker 3: can do, apart from taking your money, taxing it and 241 00:13:05,179 --> 00:13:07,659 Speaker 3: then spending it on stuff, is it can make rules 242 00:13:07,779 --> 00:13:09,859 Speaker 3: for how you use the property that you still own. 243 00:13:09,978 --> 00:13:11,939 Speaker 3: Ah you what it hasn't taxed. And I would argue 244 00:13:11,978 --> 00:13:15,419 Speaker 3: that power of making rules about who can lend money 245 00:13:15,419 --> 00:13:17,859 Speaker 3: to who, how you can run a daycare, how you 246 00:13:17,939 --> 00:13:22,299 Speaker 3: can develop your property, who can build a water treatment plant, 247 00:13:22,338 --> 00:13:27,778 Speaker 3: to build a new subdivision, whatever it is, those rule 248 00:13:27,819 --> 00:13:30,858 Speaker 3: making powers, I would argue, you have a bigger effect 249 00:13:31,059 --> 00:13:35,339 Speaker 3: on our long term productivity and prosperity and ultimately how 250 00:13:35,379 --> 00:13:37,379 Speaker 3: long we live and how healthy and wealthy we are, 251 00:13:37,578 --> 00:13:40,578 Speaker 3: a bigger effect than the government spending money. I mean, 252 00:13:40,578 --> 00:13:42,819 Speaker 3: I think this government spending money is important, but regulating 253 00:13:42,819 --> 00:13:44,858 Speaker 3: your property is more important. All we're trying to do 254 00:13:44,939 --> 00:13:48,498 Speaker 3: with the regulatory standard spill is have a similar framework 255 00:13:48,858 --> 00:13:51,419 Speaker 3: where you know, if our government makes a law, it's 256 00:13:51,419 --> 00:13:55,259 Speaker 3: got to publish the effects of it on your property, 257 00:13:55,939 --> 00:13:59,419 Speaker 3: on your liberties. It's got to state what problem it 258 00:13:59,458 --> 00:14:01,138 Speaker 3: was trying to solve and why I thought this was 259 00:14:01,179 --> 00:14:04,979 Speaker 3: the best solution. It's really just making sure that voters 260 00:14:05,019 --> 00:14:07,619 Speaker 3: can start to get a handle on the impact of 261 00:14:07,699 --> 00:14:10,179 Speaker 3: regulation as easily as they can on spending. 262 00:14:10,299 --> 00:14:13,419 Speaker 1: So how much would the build cost per animal cross 263 00:14:13,458 --> 00:14:16,339 Speaker 1: an estimated twenty years? I'm sure you saw that reporting 264 00:14:16,338 --> 00:14:18,419 Speaker 1: from the Herald last week It said that it was 265 00:14:18,419 --> 00:14:21,459 Speaker 1: twenty million per annam. What have officials at the Ministry 266 00:14:21,499 --> 00:14:23,058 Speaker 1: of Regulation actually said. 267 00:14:22,979 --> 00:14:26,339 Speaker 3: Well, that's true, and that's from the Ministry for Regulations analysis. 268 00:14:26,419 --> 00:14:29,779 Speaker 3: If you start making the bureaucracy analyze the rules that 269 00:14:29,819 --> 00:14:32,499 Speaker 3: it's pushing on people, it'll cost twenty million to do it. 270 00:14:32,579 --> 00:14:34,659 Speaker 3: And then the criticism has been well what will the 271 00:14:34,659 --> 00:14:37,499 Speaker 3: benefits of that be? And the truth is it's very 272 00:14:37,539 --> 00:14:40,819 Speaker 3: hard to calculate, but we know that the benefits are 273 00:14:40,859 --> 00:14:42,778 Speaker 3: going to be much greater than the cost for the 274 00:14:42,859 --> 00:14:46,179 Speaker 3: simple reason that if it's going to cost this much 275 00:14:46,219 --> 00:14:49,699 Speaker 3: money just for the bureaucracy to write up and monitor 276 00:14:49,699 --> 00:14:52,459 Speaker 3: the rules it's making, imagine the cost of all the 277 00:14:52,459 --> 00:14:54,619 Speaker 3: poor buggers out there that have to follow the rules. 278 00:14:54,659 --> 00:14:56,139 Speaker 1: Are there many jobs that are going to be Like 279 00:14:56,499 --> 00:14:59,138 Speaker 1: I can imagine that it's a lot of consultancy firms 280 00:14:59,139 --> 00:15:01,979 Speaker 1: and everything like that making pretty big bank over the 281 00:15:02,179 --> 00:15:04,379 Speaker 1: over these kind of regulatory changes. 282 00:15:04,499 --> 00:15:06,539 Speaker 3: Well, let's just give you one example. I mean that 283 00:15:06,619 --> 00:15:12,099 Speaker 3: the estimate of the town planning industry is one point 284 00:15:12,219 --> 00:15:16,739 Speaker 3: three billion dollars a year. So to put that in perspective, 285 00:15:16,899 --> 00:15:20,619 Speaker 3: that's sixty five times the twenty million we just talked 286 00:15:20,619 --> 00:15:23,619 Speaker 3: about just in one area, which is resource management. That 287 00:15:23,659 --> 00:15:26,179 Speaker 3: the cost of this red tape and regulation is enormous, 288 00:15:26,179 --> 00:15:28,258 Speaker 3: but that that's actually a tiny portion of the overall 289 00:15:28,299 --> 00:15:31,539 Speaker 3: cost the real cost of that urban planning industry. And 290 00:15:31,659 --> 00:15:34,139 Speaker 3: my view is not for the cost for the projects 291 00:15:34,179 --> 00:15:36,699 Speaker 3: that go ahead. It's the projects that don't go ahead. 292 00:15:37,259 --> 00:15:40,579 Speaker 3: And when projects don't go ahead, there's less supply of housing, 293 00:15:40,619 --> 00:15:42,899 Speaker 3: and when there's less supply, the price goes up for 294 00:15:42,979 --> 00:15:47,579 Speaker 3: what remains. And so the real cost to a younger 295 00:15:47,579 --> 00:15:50,619 Speaker 3: generation of New Zealanders of bad regulation and land use 296 00:15:50,659 --> 00:15:53,459 Speaker 3: development make it more expensive to put in place of 297 00:15:53,539 --> 00:15:57,019 Speaker 3: water treatment plart et cetera, is incalculable. So anything we 298 00:15:57,059 --> 00:16:00,059 Speaker 3: can do to get some transparency around regulation making I 299 00:16:00,099 --> 00:16:02,819 Speaker 3: believe we'll have a major payoff just basically getting the 300 00:16:02,819 --> 00:16:05,739 Speaker 3: country's mojo back and making a few things, especially housing, 301 00:16:05,779 --> 00:16:06,379 Speaker 3: more affordable. 302 00:16:08,499 --> 00:16:09,979 Speaker 5: I think, you know, I think New Zealand has a 303 00:16:10,059 --> 00:16:13,059 Speaker 5: right to be concerned that democracy will be under threat. 304 00:16:13,339 --> 00:16:15,419 Speaker 5: David Symour is Deputy Prime Ministy. 305 00:16:15,059 --> 00:16:15,819 Speaker 3: Doesn't the episode. 306 00:16:15,819 --> 00:16:19,219 Speaker 5: He doesn't have any respect for basic democratic norms in 307 00:16:19,219 --> 00:16:21,099 Speaker 5: any respect, to the idea that people should never say 308 00:16:21,099 --> 00:16:23,979 Speaker 5: on the law changes that affect them. This government seems 309 00:16:23,979 --> 00:16:26,339 Speaker 5: to think that everything can be passed through with no scrutiny, 310 00:16:26,419 --> 00:16:28,299 Speaker 5: you know, just ram it through under agency and hope 311 00:16:28,299 --> 00:16:31,579 Speaker 5: no one notices. Like cutting the future paychecks of women 312 00:16:31,619 --> 00:16:34,099 Speaker 5: who have been claiming pay equity. Push that through, hope 313 00:16:34,099 --> 00:16:36,699 Speaker 5: no one notices. And David Seymour is right at the 314 00:16:36,739 --> 00:16:39,739 Speaker 5: heart of that. He thinks regulatory rules should apply to 315 00:16:39,739 --> 00:16:42,779 Speaker 5: everybody else except for him. Almost everything he does seems 316 00:16:42,779 --> 00:16:46,059 Speaker 5: to be exempt from the higher principles that he seems 317 00:16:46,059 --> 00:16:47,139 Speaker 5: to espouse for other people. 318 00:16:50,379 --> 00:16:52,619 Speaker 1: Do you ever feel like people have just got it 319 00:16:52,659 --> 00:16:56,219 Speaker 1: in for you because you read comments online? I mean, 320 00:16:56,259 --> 00:16:58,379 Speaker 1: you go to a comedy show, you talk to people 321 00:16:58,379 --> 00:17:00,899 Speaker 1: in the street, and it feels like a lot of 322 00:17:00,899 --> 00:17:03,979 Speaker 1: people are blaming you personally for a lot of tension 323 00:17:04,259 --> 00:17:05,499 Speaker 1: that the government faces. 324 00:17:05,819 --> 00:17:06,859 Speaker 2: What do you reckon about that? 325 00:17:07,059 --> 00:17:08,698 Speaker 3: Yeah, I get that. I think there's a couple of 326 00:17:08,699 --> 00:17:11,259 Speaker 3: reasons for it. One is that a lot of what 327 00:17:11,499 --> 00:17:15,259 Speaker 3: X proposes is for the government to do less, and 328 00:17:15,339 --> 00:17:18,938 Speaker 3: people assume that if we want the government to do less, 329 00:17:18,979 --> 00:17:23,019 Speaker 3: it's because we disagree with underlying intention. So, for example, 330 00:17:23,179 --> 00:17:25,419 Speaker 3: I look at a minimum wage. I want everyone to 331 00:17:25,459 --> 00:17:27,138 Speaker 3: be rich. I want everyone to be paid more. I 332 00:17:27,259 --> 00:17:29,179 Speaker 3: just happen to think that the government making a law 333 00:17:29,259 --> 00:17:31,339 Speaker 3: saying people have to be paid more is silly. It 334 00:17:31,339 --> 00:17:33,179 Speaker 3: can't really work. If it did work, we'd make it 335 00:17:33,259 --> 00:17:35,339 Speaker 3: much higher. But it's just kind of a pantomime. We 336 00:17:35,419 --> 00:17:37,339 Speaker 3: make it about as high as we can without too 337 00:17:37,339 --> 00:17:39,619 Speaker 3: many people getting priced out of having a job at all. 338 00:17:39,659 --> 00:17:41,539 Speaker 3: So I think it's a silly law. Then people say, oh, well, 339 00:17:41,619 --> 00:17:43,979 Speaker 3: David Seama obviously wants poor people to be paid lest No, 340 00:17:44,099 --> 00:17:47,099 Speaker 3: I don't. I just don't think that the solution that 341 00:17:47,099 --> 00:17:48,739 Speaker 3: people have cu up with is a very good one. 342 00:17:48,779 --> 00:17:51,819 Speaker 3: But people mix it up with the intention simply healthy homes. 343 00:17:52,099 --> 00:17:53,899 Speaker 3: You know, I know of people who have homes that 344 00:17:53,939 --> 00:17:56,699 Speaker 3: they could be renting out where a person could live 345 00:17:56,939 --> 00:18:00,019 Speaker 3: but doesn't. It's been made illegal to rent it out. 346 00:18:00,179 --> 00:18:02,979 Speaker 3: They've looked at the cost of upgrading it to healthy homes, 347 00:18:03,059 --> 00:18:05,259 Speaker 3: that they're not doing it, and as a result, people 348 00:18:05,299 --> 00:18:07,539 Speaker 3: are actually missing out. So I think healthy homes are silly. 349 00:18:07,579 --> 00:18:09,659 Speaker 3: I think people want to kind of renovate their homes 350 00:18:09,659 --> 00:18:11,099 Speaker 3: as much as they can afford, and when they can 351 00:18:11,139 --> 00:18:12,659 Speaker 3: afford to do it better, they'll do some more. Why 352 00:18:12,739 --> 00:18:15,219 Speaker 3: make a law, But people say, oh, well, David Seymour wants, 353 00:18:15,259 --> 00:18:17,179 Speaker 3: you know, people to live in drafty No. I don't 354 00:18:17,219 --> 00:18:18,819 Speaker 3: want people to live in drafting homes. I just think 355 00:18:18,819 --> 00:18:20,939 Speaker 3: the solution. So I think it's a big part of 356 00:18:20,939 --> 00:18:23,699 Speaker 3: the problems because we're often opposed to the government's solution. 357 00:18:24,099 --> 00:18:26,619 Speaker 3: People think we're opposed to the intention. I think the 358 00:18:26,739 --> 00:18:32,299 Speaker 3: other reason is that I don't do conformity unashamably or me. 359 00:18:32,459 --> 00:18:35,379 Speaker 3: I'm quirky. I am going to I believe over good 360 00:18:35,379 --> 00:18:37,219 Speaker 3: heart and I work hard, but I'm going to be 361 00:18:37,259 --> 00:18:39,819 Speaker 3: myself and I'm not going to apologize. And I think 362 00:18:39,859 --> 00:18:43,138 Speaker 3: in New Zealand, you know, that's a dangerous way to 363 00:18:43,179 --> 00:18:45,819 Speaker 3: be because sometimes one of the things I don't like 364 00:18:45,899 --> 00:18:48,658 Speaker 3: so much about our culture which I mostly love, is 365 00:18:48,659 --> 00:18:51,579 Speaker 3: that we tend to value conformity over truth, and I 366 00:18:51,579 --> 00:18:54,579 Speaker 3: don't do conformity for the sake of it. Plus, as 367 00:18:54,579 --> 00:18:58,019 Speaker 3: a bonus, I'm actually providing a huge public service because 368 00:18:58,819 --> 00:19:03,019 Speaker 3: I am providing the left and the losers and many 369 00:19:03,059 --> 00:19:05,579 Speaker 3: in the media and sometimes I repeat myself with something 370 00:19:05,659 --> 00:19:08,859 Speaker 3: they desperately need after their election loss, and that is 371 00:19:09,099 --> 00:19:11,019 Speaker 3: someone to blame. You're welcome. 372 00:19:12,419 --> 00:19:15,139 Speaker 1: And finally, David, you're going to be Deputy PM as 373 00:19:15,139 --> 00:19:16,459 Speaker 1: we head into the next election. 374 00:19:16,699 --> 00:19:18,859 Speaker 2: Are you in planning more for twenty twenty six yet? 375 00:19:19,259 --> 00:19:19,459 Speaker 5: Well? 376 00:19:19,499 --> 00:19:22,019 Speaker 3: Both, I mean you start planning for the next election 377 00:19:22,139 --> 00:19:24,939 Speaker 3: a day after the election. That's just the reality of 378 00:19:25,099 --> 00:19:29,139 Speaker 3: what they call the continuous campaign. However, it's also true 379 00:19:29,539 --> 00:19:32,459 Speaker 3: that take the job really seriously. I got to be 380 00:19:32,499 --> 00:19:35,659 Speaker 3: a good deputy for christ and for New Zealand, and 381 00:19:36,179 --> 00:19:37,979 Speaker 3: I think one of the best things I can do 382 00:19:38,059 --> 00:19:40,579 Speaker 3: for the next election is show people that if you 383 00:19:40,819 --> 00:19:44,459 Speaker 3: like X ideas, you also have competent operators that you 384 00:19:44,499 --> 00:19:45,019 Speaker 3: can work with. 385 00:19:45,059 --> 00:19:46,219 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, David. 386 00:19:46,219 --> 00:19:46,539 Speaker 3: Thank you. 387 00:19:49,979 --> 00:19:53,059 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 388 00:19:53,099 --> 00:19:56,939 Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 389 00:19:56,939 --> 00:20:00,979 Speaker 1: at enzadherld dot co, dot z. The Front Page is 390 00:20:01,019 --> 00:20:04,739 Speaker 1: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 391 00:20:04,899 --> 00:20:09,579 Speaker 1: our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front 392 00:20:09,579 --> 00:20:13,299 Speaker 1: Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and 393 00:20:13,419 --> 00:20:17,219 Speaker 1: tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.