1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: Kyota. I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, 2 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:16,080 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The 3 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into COVID 4 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: nineteen has been released. Deciding that the first phase of 5 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: the inquiry was inadequate, the coalition government expanded the terms 6 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: of reference to focus on lockdowns and vaccine mandates, in particular, 7 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: finding out whether the former government had considered the impact 8 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: these decisions would have on society, health, education and our economy. 9 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: The report makes twenty four formal recommendations, including framing the 10 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: elimination strategy as temporary, limiting the use of urgency in 11 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: law making, keeping an eye on the research around social cohesion, 12 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: and creating fine financial assistance scheme options ahead of a 13 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: next crisis. But wasn't there already an inquiry? Why did 14 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,119 Speaker 1: act in New Zealand first both insist on another? And 15 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: will this government make any moves on these recommendations? Today 16 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: on the Front Page, Health Minister Simeon Brown is with 17 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: us to discuss the final report's findings and whether we've 18 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: actually learned anything from it. So Minister first, tell me 19 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: about the importance of this report. What's the purpose of it. 20 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 2: Well, this report was commissioned by this government to look 21 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 2: at some of the key decisions made during the COVID 22 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 2: nineteen pandemic by the previous government, particular the effect of 23 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 2: the lockdown's vaccine mandates and also the economic impact of 24 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 2: the decisions that were made at the time. And it's 25 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 2: really important that this report was done because these decisions 26 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 2: had such an enormous impact on everyone's life in New 27 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 2: Zealand in terms of how the economy, in terms of 28 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 2: our health system, and also in terms of you know, 29 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 2: everyone's individual ability to see their friends and neighbors and 30 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 2: family and friends and of course their work. So every 31 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,679 Speaker 2: aspect of our life was impacted by COVID and so 32 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 2: it was critically important that we asked the hard questions. 33 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,119 Speaker 2: And today this report's now been tabled in Parliament. 34 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: Did the Phase one report that the last government commission 35 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: did that not ask the tough questions? 36 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 2: Look, no, I didn't go far, It didn't go far enough. 37 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 2: It asked a large number of questions in relation to 38 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 2: pandemic preparedness, things such as the vaccine rollout, access to tests, 39 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 2: so that I'd asked a number of important questions, but 40 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 2: ultimately didn't ask some of the hard and tougher questions 41 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 2: which we were in terms of the effect of the lockdowns, 42 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 2: the vaccine mandates the economic cost of the previous government's decisions, 43 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: and effectively, what this report has found is that the 44 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 2: last government did lock New Zealanders down for longer than 45 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: was necessary. It did spend more than was required to 46 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 2: respond to the pandemic and kept on spending, and ultimately 47 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 2: New Zealanders are still feeling the cost of that still 48 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 2: today with in terms of cost in the economy. So 49 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 2: this report was critically important because we need to learn 50 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 2: the lessons and as the report says, the best thing 51 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 2: that can be done in terms of preparing for future shocks, 52 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 2: whether that's a pandemic, a natural disaster, or an economic shock, 53 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 2: is we have to have prudent fiscal management of our 54 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 2: economy in order to be as prepared as possible in 55 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 2: the case of any particular future shocks that we may 56 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 2: face as the country. 57 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: Right, So, this report suggests that many opportunities to improve 58 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: economic decision making were messed throughout the response. Can you 59 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: give them an example of maybe one of these missed opportunities. 60 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 2: Well, I think with the report highlights, and this follows 61 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 2: on from the Treasury report last year which shows that 62 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 2: around half of the sixty billion dollars that were spent 63 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: responding to COVID was actually spent on things which necessarily 64 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 2: related to COVID. You know. Example of that was in 65 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: relation to the so called shovel ready projects, the number 66 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 2: of projects across the country designed to get infrastructure underway. 67 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: But many of those projects weren't shovel already, but they 68 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 2: were inflationary and they did push costs up through the economy. 69 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 2: And that was an example where the government, once the 70 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 2: advice came through very clearly from Treasury saying actually the 71 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 2: amount of money that's been spent is stimulatory, it is 72 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 2: pushing up inflation. The government had opportunity to start turning 73 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 2: the dial down on some of that expenditure, which would 74 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 2: have reduced inflation in the economy in New Zealanders would 75 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 2: be better off today if they had actually made those decisions. 76 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 2: But unfortunately they did and as the report finds, the 77 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 2: Commission finds they were not aware of any decision or 78 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 2: anything that was done where they actually tried to reduce 79 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 2: the stimulatory impact of their fiscal policies during the response 80 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 2: to the pandemic, despite many opportunities to do so. 81 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 1: Would that have kept people employed though. 82 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 2: Well, many of these projects didn't start for years after 83 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 2: the funding was actually applied. And so the reports here 84 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 2: is actually, if you're going to try and stimulate the economy, 85 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 2: the thing you need to be doing is making sure 86 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 2: that's going into things which actually make a real difference 87 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: straight away. They need to be timely, they need to 88 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 2: be quick to set up. It recommends actually the best 89 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 2: thing that the last government could have done is actually 90 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 2: invest in maintenance and repairs. And you know, we think 91 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 2: of all the potholes that were developing on the roads 92 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 2: during those times. Actually that's where if you think about 93 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 2: a timely response which actually has focused on employment, those 94 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 2: types of initiative would have been far more effective than 95 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 2: you know, big capital projects which take years to get 96 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 2: going and by that stage is having a real inflationary impact. 97 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 2: And we saw the inflationary impact that of the of 98 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 2: the economic response the last government undertook. 99 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: So the inquiry also found that social spending boosts provided 100 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,799 Speaker 1: a safety net but obviously cost billions and contributed to inflation. 101 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 1: Net Government debt as a share of GDP almost doubled 102 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 1: between twenty nineteen and twenty twenty two. Does it give 103 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: any clues as to what we perhaps could have done instead, 104 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: because the vision is twenty twenty in hindsight right. 105 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 2: Well, no doubt we needed to spend money responding to 106 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 2: the pandemic, you know, from a health perspective, making sure 107 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 2: that we kept people in jobs through the wage support 108 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 2: that was critically important to protect lives and livelihoods. But 109 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 2: you know, as the Treasury Report and as the Royal 110 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 2: Commission highlights, half of the money that was spent didn't 111 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 2: have a connection to a direct response to the actual pandemic, 112 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 2: and money was spent on initiatives, you know, which which 113 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 2: continued for many years to come afterwards. This government has 114 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 2: been elected to cut wasteful spending, to get government expenditure 115 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 2: back under control, because that's critically important to reduce inflation, 116 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 2: reduce interest rates so that kiwis aren't feeling the pressure 117 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 2: left behind by the previous government. So the lesson here 118 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 2: is twofold expenditure needs to be timely, it needs to 119 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: be focused on the issue. But also the previous government 120 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 2: didn't take the opportunities that they did have It particularly 121 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 2: highlights the period of time between around February twenty twenty 122 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 2: one and August twenty twenty one where New Zealand was 123 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 2: not facing COVID in the community unlike many other countries. 124 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 2: That was an opportunity for them, and they were also 125 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 2: being advised that they were having a stimulatory impact on 126 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: the economy through their expenditure. That was the time for 127 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 2: them to actually reduce the expenditure that they were making 128 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 2: and think differently about how they responded. They didn't take 129 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 2: up those opportunities. But looking forward, we have to think 130 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: about how do we be prepared in the face of 131 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 2: future uncertainty, whether that's an economic shock we're currently facing 132 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 2: the situation where I run, whether it's a natural disaster 133 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 2: or whether that's a pandemic. The best thing that we 134 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 2: can do as a country to be prepared is to 135 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 2: make sure we have prudent fiscal economic plans, and the 136 00:07:57,560 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 2: best way to do that is to make sure we 137 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 2: have growing economy. So that is very much in line 138 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 2: with the government's approach at the moment around our economic 139 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 2: policies and going back to the old days of spending, 140 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 2: borrowing and spending on programs which don't actually have an impact, 141 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 2: is not the solution and will not make us more 142 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 2: prepared for future future shocks, which this report highlights the 143 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 2: need for us to be very mindful of. 144 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: The report also suggests that a former minister has actually 145 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: come out and acknowledged that the public health benefits of 146 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: lockdowns did not emphatically outweigh the costs by the end 147 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty one. Now, how could this be true? 148 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: Do you think given the fact that it is a 149 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: fact that fewer people died from COVID in New Zealand 150 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: than in almost any other OECD country. 151 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 2: Well, I think what the report highlights is that for 152 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 2: in many New Zealanders, most New Zealanders would agree that 153 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 2: the initial lockdowns were critically important to protect lives livelihoods, 154 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 2: and that New useualm and benefited from that. As we 155 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 2: got into late twenty twenty one, the previous government struggled 156 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 2: to actually form an exit strategy and to give New 157 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 2: Zealanders their freedom back. And actually what the report highlights 158 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 2: is they actively ignored the officials advice from the Ministry 159 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 2: of Health, which gave them the opportunity to lift those 160 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 2: restrictions sooner, and they didn't and a couple of examples 161 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 2: of that as they left Auckland and Level four for 162 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: longer than needed in twenty twenty one. Late twenty twenty one, 163 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 2: against official advice. They also left a boundary in place 164 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,359 Speaker 2: around Auckland over the summer of twenty one twenty two, 165 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 2: which officials recommended was not necessary. Was not needed. Auckland 166 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: had already been in lockdown for many months at that 167 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 2: point and there was no need for that. The vaccination 168 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 2: rates across the country were very high and it wasn't needed. 169 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 2: In fact, the officials said that that boundary should have 170 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 2: been lifted. On the fifteenth of December, Chris Hipkins went 171 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,559 Speaker 2: to Cabinet and said, well, my view is it should 172 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 2: stay until the ninth of January. Cabinet eventually agreed to 173 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 2: the sixteenth of and it actually went for even a 174 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 2: longer period of time. Uh And so Aucklanders had their 175 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 2: summer taken away from them after months of lockdown, whilst 176 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 2: at the same time, you know, the official advice was 177 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 2: being ignored. In New Zealand has put a huge amount 178 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 2: of trust and confidence in the ministers of the day 179 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,719 Speaker 2: and in Cross Hopkins. He stood up every single day 180 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 2: and he said I am doing this on the basis 181 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 2: of official health advice. The Royal Commission highlights in a 182 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 2: number of instances, know he wasn't in New Zealanders deserved 183 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 2: trust and transparency so they could have trust and confidence 184 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 2: in terms of these major decisions that really impacted them 185 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 2: and are still impacting them today. 186 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: Is it sometimes, though, better to be safe than sorry. 187 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 2: Well, I think in this regard you need to make 188 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 2: sure you're getting the balance right. And many Aucklanders had 189 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 2: done the right thing, had got vaccinated, had some of 190 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 2: the highest rates in the in the country, and the 191 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 2: government chose to ignore the official health advice. This was 192 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 2: health advice saying it's safe to remove these restrictions. We 193 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 2: were being told by Chris Hipkins that he was following 194 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 2: health advice. And really it's up to him to explain 195 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 2: why he made that decision. It's up to him he 196 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 2: owes an explanation to New Zealanders and to auckland Is 197 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 2: as to why he ignored that advice, why he left 198 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 2: those restrictions in place longer, and ultimately why we're facing 199 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 2: the economic and social costs which which followed from that. 200 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 2: You know that the lockdowns were not free they had 201 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 2: a huge impact on terms of our economy, a huge 202 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 2: impact on our debt, and actually we needed to make 203 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 2: sure that New Zealands we're getting given the right information. 204 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 3: It's challenging because it was hard, you know, it was 205 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 3: hard for the whole country, and it's actually really I 206 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 3: find as a politician it's also quite hard to talk 207 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 3: about it now, because you know, did we get everything 208 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 3: right during that time? 209 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: No? 210 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 3: I don't think we did get everything right. Were there 211 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 3: lessons that we learned from that? Yes, of course, you know, 212 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 3: no one had ever done this before, no government had 213 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 3: ever encountered what we encounter with COVID. Undoubtedly there are 214 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 3: things that if we could go back and do them differently, 215 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 3: we would do some things differently. I can say that 216 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 3: and then someone asks me a specific question that'll be like, 217 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 3: well what about decision X? And so you explain the 218 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 3: reasoning behind that decision and then they say, oh, so 219 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 3: you don't think you made any mistakes. I said, no, 220 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 3: I'm not. I'm just explaining why we made the decision 221 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 3: we made at that time. 222 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: And I don't think anybody said that we did it 223 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: perfectly the first time, right, I mean, even Chris Hipkin 224 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 1: has coming onto this show before and said that they 225 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: recognized that there are a lot of things that they 226 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: could have done better in hindsight, and a lot of 227 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 1: things that can be changed moving forward. Do you accept 228 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,199 Speaker 1: the fact that at the time and in that pressure 229 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: cooker situation, a lot of information was being thrown and 230 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: a lot of information was changing day to day, sometimes 231 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: even hour by hour, and everything is kind of you know, 232 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: rosy in hindsight that. 233 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 2: The facts are what is in the Royal Commission, and 234 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 2: that he was provided advice that he could lift those 235 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 2: restrictions sooner, and instead of taking that to cabinet, he 236 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 2: took a different option to cabinet to extend it, not 237 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 2: an option put forward by officials, an option he put 238 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 2: forward by himself, and Cabinet agreed with a further option 239 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 2: to provide further restrictions in Auckland. So it's up to 240 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 2: him to explain why he made those decisions. What the 241 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 2: report highlights is that those decisions didn't come for free. 242 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 2: They had It came at a cost, a cost to 243 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 2: New Zealanders who couldn't see their families and their loved ones, 244 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 2: a cost to our economy, and a cost to our 245 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 2: national debt and we're still facing those consequences today, and 246 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 2: ultimately Where's the government are now faced with the unenviable 247 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 2: task of making sure that we put New Zealand back 248 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: into a fiscally prudent position, and that is exactly what 249 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 2: we are doing, because as a country, we are prone 250 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 2: to shocks where it's economic, where those are natural disasters, 251 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 2: where it's the future pandemic, and we need to make 252 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: sure that where's the country are prepared and the best 253 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 2: thing we can do is to make sure that we 254 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 2: have fiscal prudent policy in place. And all of those 255 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,839 Speaker 2: decisions that he made, particularly those ones towards the end 256 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 2: of the pandemic and the end of the lockdowns, had 257 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 2: an enormous fiscal cost and we're paying for that still today. 258 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: I think another major interesting thing about this Phase two 259 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: report is the discussion around social cohesion and whether enough 260 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: weight or had been put on the effects on social 261 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: cohesion when making some of these decisions. Do you think 262 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: enough weight had been put on them? For starters? 263 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: Well, look, I think at the start of the start 264 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 2: of the pandemic, most New Zealanders fully supported the approach 265 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 2: the government was taking and that saved lives saved livelihoods 266 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: as the pandemic continued. Decisions were being made in Wellington 267 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 2: while Auckland was being locked down, and I don't. And 268 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 2: the report highlights the fact that decision makers we're not 269 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 2: getting enough information about the actual impacts on the ground 270 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 2: and what it was actually what it actually meant for 271 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 2: people who were facing the consequences of the lockdowns, and 272 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: those social consequences do continue and are still are still 273 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: being felt, and so ultimately the report highlights the need 274 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 2: to make sure that decision makers are far more connected 275 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 2: with actually what is happening on the ground and the 276 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 2: real impact of those decisions and what they're having from 277 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 2: an economic impact, from a social impact, and the consequences 278 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 2: of those are real. 279 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: How would you have dealt with the thousands of people 280 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: rocking up to occupy parliament grounds? I only asked this 281 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: because when we talk about social cohesion, that lot is 282 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: the first you know, people that come to mind that 283 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: obviously had enough of mandates and restrictions and vaccinations etc. 284 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: By that time. Do you think that that was handled 285 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: well well? 286 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 2: The previous government promised openness and transparency. That's what they 287 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 2: said they were doing. That's what when they when they? 288 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 2: When Chris Hopkins stood up and made his decisions, he 289 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 2: said he was following the health advice. The best thing 290 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 2: that can be done to improve social cohesion is to 291 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 2: ensure that information is being shared publicly, openly and transparently 292 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 2: when it comes to major decisions which impact people's lives, 293 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 2: their livelihoods, and balances their rights and their interests with 294 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 2: obviously the critically important health needs of the time. And 295 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 2: so when it comes to those those those issues, and 296 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 2: there's many New Zealanders who will feel different feelings based 297 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 2: on what happened to them. The key thing, I think 298 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 2: is that a need foreignpenness and transparency and the and 299 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 2: the and the key question that Chrysipkins needs to answer 300 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 2: based on the findings of this report is why was? 301 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 2: Why were Why was some of those decidens he made? 302 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 2: Why what the lack of transparency there is something he 303 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 2: needs to answer to. 304 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: How do you think you would have dealt with those 305 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: protesters though? 306 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 2: Well? I think the reality is by ensuring that there 307 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 2: was openness and transparency around the key decisions that were 308 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 2: being made, I think that would have supported far greater 309 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 2: social cohesion then but also now in terms of those 310 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 2: major decisions. These were decisions which had a huge impact 311 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 2: on people's lives, and I think that's what people wanted 312 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 2: to see. 313 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: No one, no one is discounting that obviously, but you 314 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: can imagine that given what had happened, and then today, 315 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: if something, if a pandemic were to roll around the 316 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: corner and arrive at our shores tomorrow, there wouldn't be 317 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: a lockdown, presumably, right, because you have such a hard 318 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:31,919 Speaker 1: time convincing so many people that are lockdown and mandates 319 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: are okay, how would you deal with that? 320 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 2: Well, Ultimately, as a government, you're elected to take into 321 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 2: account the advice that you receive from officials. You have 322 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 2: to question it, you have to consider it and then 323 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 2: make decisions in the best interests of New Zealand. And 324 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 2: you have to justify those decisions as to what those 325 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 2: decisions are that you make. The best thing we can 326 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 2: do is focus on making sure that we have transparency 327 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 2: and openness. One of the recommendations that report sees is 328 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 2: that we actually need to spend time thinking about what 329 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 2: would be the policy approach that would be taken in 330 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 2: a future pandemic which balances people's rights with the need 331 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 2: to ensure the health and safety of the public at 332 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 2: large and the protection of our health system, and that 333 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 2: that should be done in a way that is considered 334 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 2: carefully and allows for the full public consultation that would 335 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 2: be should be done so those There are a number 336 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 2: of recommendations that this report highlights that we will be 337 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 2: considering over the coming months in terms of how we 338 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 2: respond to this, because we need to make sure that 339 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 2: we do this in a way that New Zealanders feel 340 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,959 Speaker 2: confident and how these decisions would be made. 341 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 4: The kids not at school, the behavior of so many 342 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 4: that's been out of control, if not outrageous, the moral fatigue, 343 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 4: the social decline, the malaise that is not measured in 344 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 4: total stats, but the overarching feeling this country is a 345 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 4: shadow of what it once was. That's the real story 346 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 4: of COVID. But I still maintain I mean right, all 347 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 4: the reports you want, inquire until you're blue in the face. 348 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 4: A pandemic is luck. If the government that's in on 349 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 4: the day the pandemic arrives is good, you'll be okay. 350 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 4: If it's Labour twenty seventeen through twenty twenty three, well 351 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 4: you don't need a report. Just look at. 352 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: Us and just finally, Minister, New Zealand is currently experiencing 353 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: a ninth COVID wave. The latest Health New Zealand figures 354 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: show fifty hospitalizations at the time of recording nineteen deaths 355 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 1: with the virus in the past week. Should we be concerned? 356 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: What information are you getting about this? 357 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 2: Yes? Ultimately COVID is now part of what goes round 358 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 2: in terms of the flues in COVID and other respiratory 359 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 2: illnesses that are in our in New Zealand, but also 360 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 2: so globally. The government spends a significantm money responding to that. 361 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 2: We have the COVID vaccination available for New Zealanders to use. 362 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 2: We do a lot of testing in our hospitals. We 363 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 2: have treatments available to treat people who have COVID. We 364 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 2: of course have the waste water testing as well, so 365 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 2: we can measure the amount that is going through around 366 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 2: New Zealand as well. So, ultimately it's important that New 367 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 2: Zealanders continue to be mindful and those treatments and those 368 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 2: vaccinations are available. People should talk to their talk to 369 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 2: their GP or their health professional and relation relation to 370 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 2: those and so we continue to provide the tools. Those 371 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 2: tools are available to our health system in order to 372 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 2: support it to respond to COVID, just as we do 373 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 2: with the flu and with other illnesses which which go 374 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 2: around in our community. 375 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 1: So we shouldn't be worried. 376 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, it is obviously a serious issue in 377 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 2: terms of its still a large amount of cases, but 378 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 2: we are providing the tools that our health system needs 379 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 2: in order to be able to respond to what we 380 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 2: are seeing. 381 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: And by the way, do we know how much this 382 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 1: entire process of the Phase one and Phase two Royal 383 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 1: Commission of Inquiries it has cost. 384 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 2: It's approximately thirty million dollars, slightly more with spent on 385 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 2: Phase one than on Phase two. It's coming within the 386 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 2: budget that was set at the time, and as with 387 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 2: every Royal Commission, now it's up to the government to 388 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 2: consider the recommendations. We'll be reporting back in July taking 389 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 2: into acount the recommendations from Phase one and from Phase 390 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 2: two with a full response to these this inquiry. 391 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 1: I like how you had to dig in and say 392 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: that actually Phase one cost a little bit more than 393 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: Phase two. How much did each phase cost? 394 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 2: I think it was around seventeen million for Phase one 395 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 2: and around fourteen million for Phase two, but I can 396 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 2: come back with the exact amount. I think in total 397 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 2: it was around thirty million dollars. 398 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, minister, Thank you very much. That's 399 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 1: it for this episode of the Front Page. You can 400 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at 401 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 1: enzidherld dot co dot enz The Front Page is hosted 402 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: and produced by me Chelsea daniels Kine. Dickie is our 403 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 1: studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and our 404 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: executive producer is Jane Ye. Follow the Front Page on 405 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 1: the iheartapp or wherever you get your podcasts, and join 406 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: us next time for another look beyond the headlines.