1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,320 Speaker 1: We have the first bit of the COVID inquiry done O. 2 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: The government will receive the report later on today. Won't 3 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: be releasing it though, which is a story in itself. 4 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: I think outgoing COVID Inquiry chare Tony Blakeley is back 5 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: with this tiny morning. 6 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 2: What in micadlessness? 7 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: If this was all there was? In other words, there's 8 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: no Part two. Is it comprehensive enough? 9 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 2: Absolutely? Our terms of reference abroad and our report. What 10 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:24,760 Speaker 2: we've done is we've looked back at what happened, We've 11 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 2: looked forward at the lessons, and we've made recommendations. And 12 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 2: when we look back, we've covered all of all of 13 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 2: government decision making, the lockdowns board as an MiQ, health 14 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 2: system response, economic and social response, vaccination and in particular 15 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 2: the use of mandatoriness or compulsion about some of those 16 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 2: measures like vaccination, master testing and all that. We've covered 17 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 2: pretty much all of it. Phase two will do a 18 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 2: little bit of different stuff, which is particularly around vaccine harm. 19 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 2: So for example, people having an adverse evend to vaccines 20 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: more closely to that where that was outside of our 21 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 2: terms of reference. 22 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: So is that necessary or not? 23 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 2: Is what necessary? 24 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: Part two? 25 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 2: Well, that's not my decision made now. 26 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,119 Speaker 1: I know that. But if you're telling me that what 27 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: you've done is the big picture and this is all 28 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: we need to know, why are we doing part two? 29 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 2: Do you think, Well, that's the government's decision. But what 30 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 2: I would say, Mike, is that grant Elling with who's 31 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 2: the incoming chair has been really really good in the 32 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 2: handover heaps of integrity, and I reckon it's a bit 33 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 2: like the eighty twenty rule. We had a really big 34 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 2: job to do and we've probably got eighty percent of 35 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 2: everything done on the terms of reference, and there's an 36 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 2: extra twenty percent, and sometimes that twenty percent is important. 37 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 2: They may find some stuff we haven't found on things 38 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 2: like mandates which they'll be looking at, and more debt 39 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 2: and lockdowns that they'll be looking at in more debt, 40 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 2: but also they'll be looking at the vaccine harm and safety, 41 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:54,559 Speaker 2: which for many citizens of our tier own New Zealand 42 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 2: is a particularly important issue. And you know, good, that's 43 00:01:58,360 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 2: good that they're doing the mandates. 44 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: In the comments you've made about the mandates, is that 45 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: a change of mind on your part or not? 46 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 2: Ah, it's an evolution. I think we've all learned a lot. 47 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: What I will say at this point is that you know, 48 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 2: mandates are sort of a PLoP shelf thing. You should 49 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 2: only really be using them when you absolutely have to. 50 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 2: And we've got a lot to say about that report. 51 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 2: If I can reflect overseas previous Premier Purite New South 52 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 2: Wales Conservative government and a valedictory speech who said as 53 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 2: one major regrupt was the over use of mandates and compulsion. 54 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 2: And I think for a lot of us around the 55 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 2: world are learning that those mandates might have gone a 56 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 2: bit too far for a bit too long. It's a 57 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:43,959 Speaker 2: very delicate balance and a future pandemic which is what 58 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 2: we're ready focused on now. You can't rule out the 59 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 2: need for doing mandatory measures again because the virus might 60 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: be two four times is fatal and two or four 61 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 2: times of infectious and you just need to do everything. However, 62 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 2: if we had something like COVID again, I think all 63 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 2: of us are saying that if we prepare pet to 64 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 2: have better contact tracing them, would need less of the 65 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 2: mandatory measures like lockdowns and vaccine manager. 66 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: I reckon hand on the Blakeley's i EU, the Bloomfields, 67 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: the Bakers, et cetera. Would have had the gonads to 68 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: stand up to a zealots like a Dern who was 69 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: determined to lock us down. 70 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:25,239 Speaker 2: I think you're probably going to bit fire there, Mike. 71 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 2: Let me rethink about that. So I think that people, 72 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 2: both the all of the policy people, the bloomfields, the academics, 73 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 2: the bakers, and the government viadorens, if you like, everybody 74 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 2: was doing the best that they possibly could and making 75 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 2: decisions and incredibly complicated and fast moving circumstances going forward. 76 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 2: And again the UK Enquiry has made this quite clear 77 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 2: and we speak to as well. It's really, really really 78 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 2: important to make sure that you have a diversity of 79 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 2: advice coming in that you're very agile and you don't 80 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: get stuck in your ways. So a key there's two 81 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 2: key s words here, scenarios and strategy. So scenarios we 82 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 2: need to be thinking about what type of scenarios next 83 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 2: pandemic is and investing in preparation for that. And then 84 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 2: when the next pandemic, courts were constantly thinking about where 85 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 2: this thing going to go. What mightn't you take to 86 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 2: is a society on board with us and be able 87 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 2: to agile adapt. Which comes to the strategy part is 88 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 2: that I think a lot of countries, learned that you 89 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 2: need to really protect that strategy function. So you've got 90 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 2: a group that's always looking forward and planning for the 91 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 2: next possible steps. 92 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: Good stuff, Tony, good to talk to. You appreciate it 93 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: very much. Tony Blakeley outgoing our COVID inquiry chair. He 94 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: will hand it over at two pm this afternoon. My 95 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: reference earlier to Brook van Veldt, and she has said 96 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: this doesn't get made public now. It will be made 97 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: public at some point after Phase two is underway, which 98 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: strikes me as Machaveelian, which is highly unlikely, highly unusual 99 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: for the act Party. I would have thought, but that's 100 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: that's a question for another day. 101 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 2: For more from The Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to 102 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 2: News Talks at B from six am weekdays, or follow 103 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.