1 00:00:06,667 --> 00:00:10,387 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport Podcast with Jason Vine 2 00:00:10,707 --> 00:00:13,547 Speaker 1: from Newstalks EDB October one. 3 00:00:13,987 --> 00:00:17,947 Speaker 2: This coming Wednesday will mark the fiftieth anniversary of the 4 00:00:17,947 --> 00:00:21,347 Speaker 2: Thriller in Manila, regarded by many as the greatest prize 5 00:00:21,347 --> 00:00:25,107 Speaker 2: fight of all time, the third and final professional bout 6 00:00:25,227 --> 00:00:29,227 Speaker 2: between Muhammad Ali and Joe Fraser for the heavyweight championship 7 00:00:29,267 --> 00:00:29,907 Speaker 2: of the World. 8 00:00:30,627 --> 00:00:31,707 Speaker 1: I hurt. 9 00:00:33,107 --> 00:00:41,267 Speaker 3: Rader, badly hurt. That was the biggest round of the 10 00:00:41,267 --> 00:00:46,307 Speaker 3: fight for anybody. Fraser what within a bunch or two 11 00:00:46,347 --> 00:00:50,467 Speaker 3: of going down, the doctor comes up and looks at Fraser. 12 00:00:52,067 --> 00:01:00,067 Speaker 3: I think it's gonna be over. It's all over. Muhammad 13 00:01:00,067 --> 00:01:02,147 Speaker 3: Ali is pretty well spenced. 14 00:01:02,027 --> 00:01:03,987 Speaker 2: Who has retained a title. 15 00:01:04,307 --> 00:01:06,907 Speaker 3: And I think he needs a little air because this 16 00:01:07,027 --> 00:01:07,427 Speaker 3: has to. 17 00:01:07,387 --> 00:01:11,067 Speaker 2: Have been one of the most brewer things heavyweight championships 18 00:01:11,067 --> 00:01:13,587 Speaker 2: of all time. It certainly was. Fraser had beat An 19 00:01:13,747 --> 00:01:17,187 Speaker 2: Li at Madison Square Garden in nineteen seventy one. Ari 20 00:01:17,267 --> 00:01:20,467 Speaker 2: beat Fraser three years later at the same venue. This 21 00:01:20,627 --> 00:01:23,667 Speaker 2: was the final and by far most brutal of their 22 00:01:23,707 --> 00:01:27,107 Speaker 2: three bouts. Some sources estimate it was watched by one 23 00:01:27,387 --> 00:01:31,947 Speaker 2: billion viewers. Ari won by corner retirement when Joe Fraser's 24 00:01:31,947 --> 00:01:34,667 Speaker 2: team asked the referee to stop the fight after the 25 00:01:34,707 --> 00:01:39,067 Speaker 2: fourteenth of fifteen scheduled rounds. Thomas Hauser is one of 26 00:01:39,107 --> 00:01:42,467 Speaker 2: the most prolific and respected boxing writers and journalists of 27 00:01:42,507 --> 00:01:45,067 Speaker 2: all time. Among as many many books on boxing, he 28 00:01:45,107 --> 00:01:48,827 Speaker 2: wrote Muhammad Ali, His Life and Times, The Definitive Biography 29 00:01:48,987 --> 00:01:52,387 Speaker 2: of Muhammad Ali. Thomas Hauser was inducted into the International 30 00:01:52,387 --> 00:01:55,107 Speaker 2: Boxing Hall of Fame in twenty nineteen and joins us 31 00:01:55,227 --> 00:01:57,787 Speaker 2: from New York. Thomas is great to have you on 32 00:01:57,867 --> 00:02:00,987 Speaker 2: news Talks, edb. Can you put the thriller in Manila 33 00:02:01,267 --> 00:02:03,867 Speaker 2: into context for us in terms of where it sits 34 00:02:04,307 --> 00:02:07,187 Speaker 2: among the most significant bouts and boxing history. 35 00:02:08,307 --> 00:02:10,427 Speaker 3: Okay, well, for first, it is very nice to be 36 00:02:10,507 --> 00:02:14,507 Speaker 3: with you. Thank you for having me. You said before 37 00:02:14,627 --> 00:02:17,827 Speaker 3: that it was for the heavyweight championship for the world, 38 00:02:18,467 --> 00:02:23,107 Speaker 3: but it was really for something much more important than that, 39 00:02:23,347 --> 00:02:26,427 Speaker 3: which is that Muhammad Ali and Joe Frasier were fighting 40 00:02:26,467 --> 00:02:31,427 Speaker 3: for the championship of each other. They were bitter rivals, 41 00:02:31,827 --> 00:02:36,107 Speaker 3: they were universally regarded as two of the best heavyweights 42 00:02:36,147 --> 00:02:39,987 Speaker 3: other and while to the outside world, yes, this was 43 00:02:40,027 --> 00:02:44,027 Speaker 3: for the heavyweight championship for those two men. It was 44 00:02:44,307 --> 00:02:48,867 Speaker 3: intensely personal. This was between the two of them. This 45 00:02:49,067 --> 00:02:53,147 Speaker 3: was going to determine who was champion between them and 46 00:02:53,227 --> 00:02:56,027 Speaker 3: forget the rest of the world. And as you said, 47 00:02:56,147 --> 00:03:02,427 Speaker 3: it was a horribly brutal fight, with back and forth, 48 00:03:03,467 --> 00:03:07,987 Speaker 3: very destructive action the whole way. The heat and humidity 49 00:03:08,267 --> 00:03:14,947 Speaker 3: were sweltering, and neither man ever fully recovered from the 50 00:03:14,947 --> 00:03:18,507 Speaker 3: physical damage that they inflicted on each other that day. 51 00:03:19,507 --> 00:03:25,947 Speaker 3: I had many remarkable experiences with Mohammed and a lot 52 00:03:25,947 --> 00:03:29,067 Speaker 3: of gratifying ones. And one of the most gratifying things 53 00:03:29,187 --> 00:03:32,507 Speaker 3: is while I was working on Mohammed Ali's life and times, 54 00:03:33,147 --> 00:03:37,787 Speaker 3: Ali sat and watched videos of all of his fights together, 55 00:03:38,027 --> 00:03:41,267 Speaker 3: and we'd sit on the sofa in either my living 56 00:03:41,307 --> 00:03:44,227 Speaker 3: room or the sofa on his living room in his home, 57 00:03:44,707 --> 00:03:47,107 Speaker 3: and we watched the tapes of his fights one by 58 00:03:47,147 --> 00:03:51,587 Speaker 3: one in chronological order, and he enjoyed most of those, 59 00:03:52,267 --> 00:03:56,467 Speaker 3: even when times were hard. I mean, when Henry Cooper 60 00:03:56,547 --> 00:04:00,907 Speaker 3: knocked him down with that callacious left took Ali's open wide, 61 00:04:01,027 --> 00:04:05,947 Speaker 3: and then even the first fight against Fraser, which Mohammad lost, 62 00:04:06,387 --> 00:04:10,467 Speaker 3: and the first fight against Ken Norton when Mohammad's draw 63 00:04:10,627 --> 00:04:14,107 Speaker 3: was broken. We're safely ensconced in the annals of history, 64 00:04:14,867 --> 00:04:19,467 Speaker 3: but sitting on the sofa next to Mohammad while we 65 00:04:19,467 --> 00:04:28,107 Speaker 3: were watching the Thriller and Manila, Mohammed physically winced years 66 00:04:28,107 --> 00:04:31,667 Speaker 3: three years later as he watched Joe land some of 67 00:04:31,707 --> 00:04:36,267 Speaker 3: those punches. And when we finished watching the tape, Mohammad 68 00:04:36,307 --> 00:04:39,667 Speaker 3: turned to me and said, Fraser quit just before I did. 69 00:04:40,067 --> 00:04:43,027 Speaker 3: I didn't think I could fight anymore now. Actually it 70 00:04:43,147 --> 00:04:46,707 Speaker 3: wasn't Joe Fraser who quit. It was Eddie Futch, who 71 00:04:46,827 --> 00:04:51,307 Speaker 3: was Joe's chief second, who stopped the fight. Joe could 72 00:04:51,387 --> 00:04:53,947 Speaker 3: not see out of one eye. He was having trouble 73 00:04:54,027 --> 00:04:57,267 Speaker 3: seeing much of anything out of the other. He was 74 00:04:57,307 --> 00:05:02,987 Speaker 3: bleeding badly from the mouth. And that's when fighters get 75 00:05:03,467 --> 00:05:07,067 Speaker 3: even more seriously damaged than those two men were, and 76 00:05:07,107 --> 00:05:11,667 Speaker 3: so Eddie Fudge stopped it. If the bell for a 77 00:05:11,787 --> 00:05:16,267 Speaker 3: round fifteen had come, I think Mohammed would have gone 78 00:05:16,347 --> 00:05:19,747 Speaker 3: out for the round. He was as courageous as any 79 00:05:19,787 --> 00:05:23,387 Speaker 3: fighter whoever lived. But if you look at a video 80 00:05:23,507 --> 00:05:29,027 Speaker 3: of that fight, after the fight is stopped, Mohammed stands 81 00:05:29,147 --> 00:05:32,587 Speaker 3: up and raises his arm in triumph, and then he 82 00:05:32,787 --> 00:05:38,187 Speaker 3: sort of oozes to the ring canvas, so would it 83 00:05:38,227 --> 00:05:42,187 Speaker 3: have been like Sugar Ray Robinson against Joey Maxim at 84 00:05:42,227 --> 00:05:46,787 Speaker 3: Madison Square Garden when Robinson was well ahead of the scorecards. 85 00:05:46,827 --> 00:05:51,267 Speaker 3: This was back in nineteen fifty two, and the heat 86 00:05:51,427 --> 00:05:54,547 Speaker 3: was one hundred and for degrees at Madison Square matt 87 00:05:54,627 --> 00:05:58,747 Speaker 3: Yankee Stadium, let me correct myself Yankee Stadium that night, 88 00:05:59,347 --> 00:06:04,267 Speaker 3: and Robinson just collapsed in his corner after the thirteenth 89 00:06:04,347 --> 00:06:09,427 Speaker 3: round and couldn't go on. You know, on some cosmic 90 00:06:09,587 --> 00:06:13,827 Speaker 3: measuring scale, you can say that Ali Fraser III was 91 00:06:13,867 --> 00:06:17,307 Speaker 3: a draw, but Muhammad won it in the record books, 92 00:06:17,347 --> 00:06:19,227 Speaker 3: and that's the way it stands forever. 93 00:06:20,187 --> 00:06:23,907 Speaker 2: At what stages of their respective careers were Ali and 94 00:06:23,947 --> 00:06:27,867 Speaker 2: Fraser in nineteen seventy five, Both of. 95 00:06:27,747 --> 00:06:33,467 Speaker 3: Them were well passed their prime. Ali was at you know, 96 00:06:33,587 --> 00:06:36,587 Speaker 3: Joe never fought Ali at his best. Ali was at 97 00:06:36,627 --> 00:06:41,267 Speaker 3: his best before the exile from boxing, when he was young, 98 00:06:41,547 --> 00:06:44,827 Speaker 3: when he had his legs, when he was fighting Cleveland 99 00:06:44,907 --> 00:06:48,627 Speaker 3: Williams and Ernie Terrell and Zora Foley. By the time 100 00:06:48,707 --> 00:06:51,707 Speaker 3: he came back to fight Joe Frasier the first time, 101 00:06:52,067 --> 00:06:56,627 Speaker 3: Muhammad's legs were gone, and that first fight against Ali 102 00:06:56,787 --> 00:06:59,147 Speaker 3: took so much out of Joe that he was never 103 00:06:59,227 --> 00:07:03,787 Speaker 3: the same fighter again Ali after the layoff. Ali was 104 00:07:03,867 --> 00:07:07,107 Speaker 3: probably at his best in zi year against orde Foreman 105 00:07:07,747 --> 00:07:11,267 Speaker 3: then he began to decline. So by the time they 106 00:07:11,627 --> 00:07:15,307 Speaker 3: met for the third time in Manila, neither of them 107 00:07:15,787 --> 00:07:20,027 Speaker 3: was the fighter he had once been physically, but their 108 00:07:20,267 --> 00:07:25,667 Speaker 3: downward arcs coincided just the right time, so they were 109 00:07:25,707 --> 00:07:30,347 Speaker 3: evenly matched, and they still had that incredible warrior spirit 110 00:07:30,747 --> 00:07:31,627 Speaker 3: both of them. 111 00:07:32,267 --> 00:07:34,947 Speaker 2: Was there any respect between the two or did they 112 00:07:35,067 --> 00:07:37,307 Speaker 2: just outright dislike one another? 113 00:07:38,067 --> 00:07:44,787 Speaker 3: Well, Muhammad had respect for Joe as a fighter. Joe 114 00:07:45,547 --> 00:07:49,947 Speaker 3: despised Muhammad, and I understand that, you know, Joe Frazier. 115 00:07:51,147 --> 00:07:55,587 Speaker 3: Let's go back a step. When they fought the first time, 116 00:07:57,107 --> 00:08:03,067 Speaker 3: Muhammad was the most famous person in the world, and 117 00:08:04,227 --> 00:08:09,827 Speaker 3: Joe won that first fight. But that fight was really 118 00:08:10,027 --> 00:08:15,267 Speaker 3: looked on as a metaphor the struggle between racist warlike 119 00:08:15,427 --> 00:08:19,067 Speaker 3: elements on one side and those seeking peace and social 120 00:08:19,347 --> 00:08:22,547 Speaker 3: justice on the other. You know, the right wing in 121 00:08:22,587 --> 00:08:26,747 Speaker 3: American politics, you know, wanting Joe to beat Ali, and 122 00:08:27,427 --> 00:08:32,747 Speaker 3: the anti war protesters and people who who were seeking 123 00:08:32,947 --> 00:08:37,667 Speaker 3: justice through the civil rights movement supporting Ali. Joe didn't 124 00:08:37,707 --> 00:08:44,147 Speaker 3: want to be a symbol, you know, and Joe just 125 00:08:44,147 --> 00:08:48,907 Speaker 3: wanted to be a fighter. But their first fight, Ali 126 00:08:49,107 --> 00:08:53,627 Speaker 3: branded Joe and uncle Tom. The second fight, he branded 127 00:08:53,707 --> 00:08:57,107 Speaker 3: him as ignorant. The third fight he made fun of 128 00:08:57,147 --> 00:08:59,627 Speaker 3: him as a gorilla with all of the ugly racial 129 00:08:59,707 --> 00:09:05,147 Speaker 3: stereotypes that come with that. And even though Manila wasn't 130 00:09:05,187 --> 00:09:10,187 Speaker 3: about Ali's social and political beliefs, the narrative had quieted. 131 00:09:10,267 --> 00:09:16,507 Speaker 3: By then. Joe bore a huge amount of resentment towards Muhammad. 132 00:09:17,027 --> 00:09:19,467 Speaker 3: He did until the very end. You know. From time 133 00:09:19,507 --> 00:09:23,387 Speaker 3: to time, as the years went by, they'd get together, 134 00:09:23,747 --> 00:09:27,187 Speaker 3: usually for an economic incentive to appear at some event. 135 00:09:27,707 --> 00:09:31,427 Speaker 3: But Joe's hatred remained. And one of the things that 136 00:09:31,507 --> 00:09:33,787 Speaker 3: Ali said to me, and he said it often, was 137 00:09:33,827 --> 00:09:37,187 Speaker 3: that he was sorry that Joe was angry at him. 138 00:09:37,787 --> 00:09:41,547 Speaker 3: And what Mohammad said, very very, you know, directly, was 139 00:09:41,987 --> 00:09:45,347 Speaker 3: if God ever calls me to a holy war, I 140 00:09:45,387 --> 00:09:47,307 Speaker 3: want Joe Fraser fighting beside me. 141 00:09:48,547 --> 00:09:53,187 Speaker 2: Amazing how different or not Thomas were Ali and Fraser 142 00:09:53,587 --> 00:09:56,387 Speaker 2: as fighters, well. 143 00:09:57,187 --> 00:10:02,147 Speaker 3: They both had an extraordinary warrior spirit. Beyond that, they 144 00:10:02,187 --> 00:10:08,107 Speaker 3: were completely different as fighters. Mohammad relied on footwork and speed. 145 00:10:08,267 --> 00:10:12,107 Speaker 3: When he was at his best, and he didn't want 146 00:10:12,147 --> 00:10:15,067 Speaker 3: to get hit. You know, it was jabbed straight right hand. 147 00:10:15,147 --> 00:10:18,787 Speaker 3: Those were his two best punches. Joe was happy to 148 00:10:18,827 --> 00:10:23,267 Speaker 3: take two punches to land one. He came straight forward, 149 00:10:23,347 --> 00:10:26,907 Speaker 3: you know, bobbing and weaving to try to evade the punches. 150 00:10:27,347 --> 00:10:33,067 Speaker 3: But Joe took more punches than he gave out. But 151 00:10:33,147 --> 00:10:35,667 Speaker 3: he could take a great punch and he could dish 152 00:10:35,707 --> 00:10:40,187 Speaker 3: out a ferocious punch. But they were completely different styles. 153 00:10:40,227 --> 00:10:43,747 Speaker 3: And you know, there's that old saying in boxing styles 154 00:10:43,867 --> 00:10:49,627 Speaker 3: make fights, and hear their styles meshed perfectly in their 155 00:10:49,667 --> 00:10:54,027 Speaker 3: first and third encounters for incredible action. The second fight 156 00:10:54,187 --> 00:10:58,307 Speaker 3: wasn't that entertaining. In the second fight, Ali was able 157 00:10:58,307 --> 00:11:02,467 Speaker 3: to use his speed, his footwork and jab to negate 158 00:11:02,547 --> 00:11:05,747 Speaker 3: pretty much anything that Joe wanted to do. But by 159 00:11:05,787 --> 00:11:10,027 Speaker 3: the third Ali had slowed too much that he couldn't 160 00:11:10,107 --> 00:11:14,387 Speaker 3: move the way he once did, and he got tired. 161 00:11:14,987 --> 00:11:19,147 Speaker 3: And as you said earlier, there were just horribly brutal exchangers. 162 00:11:20,547 --> 00:11:22,627 Speaker 2: Why did the fight take place in the Philippines. 163 00:11:23,747 --> 00:11:27,147 Speaker 3: The fight took place in the Philippines for the same 164 00:11:27,227 --> 00:11:31,227 Speaker 3: reason that Ali versus George Foreman took place in Zayir 165 00:11:31,947 --> 00:11:37,107 Speaker 3: That there was a dictator in a foreign country who 166 00:11:37,227 --> 00:11:41,147 Speaker 3: was willing to put up a huge amount of money 167 00:11:41,827 --> 00:11:45,667 Speaker 3: to bring the fighters over there, to boost his profile 168 00:11:45,827 --> 00:11:49,027 Speaker 3: at home and around the world. And there's an irony 169 00:11:49,067 --> 00:11:52,987 Speaker 3: in that, because Ali, perhaps more than any athlete ever 170 00:11:53,627 --> 00:11:59,507 Speaker 3: stood for personal freedom. But there were times when he 171 00:11:59,587 --> 00:12:05,307 Speaker 3: made accommodations, you know, with dictators, and certainly the accommodation 172 00:12:05,467 --> 00:12:10,947 Speaker 3: with Butu Zaiir and Ferdinand Marcos and the Philippines was 173 00:12:10,987 --> 00:12:14,867 Speaker 3: one of them. Now, Muhammad was not a sophistic political thinker, 174 00:12:15,387 --> 00:12:19,027 Speaker 3: and I don't think that he understood the full ramifications 175 00:12:19,067 --> 00:12:23,627 Speaker 3: of those decisions. But yeah, the reason it took place 176 00:12:23,627 --> 00:12:26,947 Speaker 3: in the Philippines was money, plain and simple. All right. 177 00:12:26,987 --> 00:12:30,307 Speaker 2: Well, it's been such a delight to JETTYA. Thomas about 178 00:12:30,667 --> 00:12:34,387 Speaker 2: your memories, your recollections, and your analysis. Ali and Fraser 179 00:12:34,427 --> 00:12:36,827 Speaker 2: never reconsoled, did they. You mentioned before that they had 180 00:12:37,067 --> 00:12:40,307 Speaker 2: public appearances to get a Ali perhaps softened on Fraser. 181 00:12:40,547 --> 00:12:42,427 Speaker 2: Did Fraser ever soften on Ali or not? 182 00:12:43,627 --> 00:12:47,387 Speaker 3: There were times when Joe was I said, they did 183 00:12:47,427 --> 00:12:51,707 Speaker 3: public appearances together from time to time. There were times 184 00:12:51,747 --> 00:12:55,267 Speaker 3: when Joe seemed to be softening a bit. But let's 185 00:12:55,307 --> 00:13:00,307 Speaker 3: put it in context. Joe once. Joe and I were 186 00:13:00,347 --> 00:13:04,507 Speaker 3: once talking about Muhammad's physical condition, which as you know, 187 00:13:04,907 --> 00:13:09,027 Speaker 3: was very bad in a lot of years of his life, 188 00:13:09,667 --> 00:13:13,347 Speaker 3: and Joe, with great satisfaction on his face, said to me, 189 00:13:14,427 --> 00:13:18,587 Speaker 3: I did that to him? Now? Was that ugly? Yeah? 190 00:13:18,907 --> 00:13:22,107 Speaker 3: Do you need to know anything more? No? 191 00:13:22,187 --> 00:13:24,067 Speaker 2: Tell us about your latest book. You still go and 192 00:13:24,107 --> 00:13:26,187 Speaker 2: goodness me, I don't know how many there must be 193 00:13:26,227 --> 00:13:28,867 Speaker 2: in that bookcase of yours. Now, The Most Honest Sport 194 00:13:28,987 --> 00:13:31,307 Speaker 2: two more years inside Boxing is your latest. 195 00:13:32,467 --> 00:13:35,467 Speaker 3: It is every year or two I bring out a 196 00:13:35,507 --> 00:13:39,547 Speaker 3: book with all of the boxing articles that I wrote 197 00:13:39,547 --> 00:13:42,987 Speaker 3: in the preceding twelve or twenty four months. The Most 198 00:13:43,027 --> 00:13:46,867 Speaker 3: Honest Sport is the most recent of those books and 199 00:13:47,027 --> 00:13:50,147 Speaker 3: apropos of what we've been talking about. There was a 200 00:13:50,187 --> 00:13:53,707 Speaker 3: long essay about the fiftieth anniversary of the Rumble in 201 00:13:53,787 --> 00:13:58,027 Speaker 3: the Jungle Muhammad Ali versus George Foreman. It's in the 202 00:13:58,067 --> 00:14:02,987 Speaker 3: Most Honest Sport. There's a lot about the contemporary boxing scene, 203 00:14:03,667 --> 00:14:08,947 Speaker 3: about what appear to be the Saudi takeover of boxing, 204 00:14:09,627 --> 00:14:12,947 Speaker 3: the big fights of the two years in question. And 205 00:14:13,507 --> 00:14:16,707 Speaker 3: my email address is out there for those who don't 206 00:14:16,747 --> 00:14:21,067 Speaker 3: have it. It's Thomas Houser. Writer at gmail dot com. 207 00:14:21,507 --> 00:14:24,467 Speaker 3: And if anybody wants to read the book and shoot 208 00:14:24,507 --> 00:14:28,307 Speaker 3: me an email about it, I promise I'll respond to them. 209 00:14:28,347 --> 00:14:30,907 Speaker 2: Wonderful Thomas, It's been wonderful chatting to you. Thank you 210 00:14:30,907 --> 00:14:33,587 Speaker 2: for joining us across New Zealand today. I really appreciate 211 00:14:33,627 --> 00:14:34,067 Speaker 2: your time. 212 00:14:34,267 --> 00:14:35,227 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. 213 00:14:35,387 --> 00:14:37,707 Speaker 2: Thank you for joining us. Thomas Thomas, how's a there? 214 00:14:38,267 --> 00:14:44,107 Speaker 2: Prolific boxing author, writer, journalist and analyst on the eve 215 00:14:44,267 --> 00:14:47,627 Speaker 2: of the fiftieth anniversary of The Thriller in Manila. 216 00:14:48,307 --> 00:14:51,467 Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live 217 00:14:51,627 --> 00:14:55,027 Speaker 1: to news Talks b weekends from midday, or follow the 218 00:14:55,027 --> 00:14:56,547 Speaker 1: podcast on iHeartRadio