1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,160 Speaker 1: But not a great day for Ruber, as the Supreme 2 00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: Court back the Appeal Court and the Employment courts decisions 3 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: in deciding that Duber drivers are employees not contractors. Like 4 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: a number of other cases internationally, the move appears to 5 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: be towards greater worker status and the idea of the 6 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,080 Speaker 1: gig economy and its inherent freedoms is being judicially sliced 7 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: to pieces. Brook van Velden is the Workplace Relations Minister 8 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,639 Speaker 1: and it's with us. Good morning, Good morning mate. Do 9 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: you have a problem here? 10 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 2: Oh? Look, one thing I know that we have a 11 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 2: problem with is business certainty, which is what I am 12 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 2: trying to build back. And as part of the gig 13 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 2: economy that you've talked about, I think New Zealand does 14 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 2: need to ensure that we have a gig economy, that 15 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 2: we have flexible work and that's why I'm creating a 16 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 2: new legal test to give businesses more certainty that they 17 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 2: can use contractors and that contractors have the ability to 18 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 2: be contractors. So that law is coming early next next year. 19 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: Do you have an amount of clarity that would allow 20 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: you to be confident that if a similar case was 21 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: taken under your new law, the same result wouldn't ensue. 22 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 2: What will happen is I'm not intending things to be retrospective, 23 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 2: but there will be four tests that need to be 24 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 2: met for a company to show that who they hire 25 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 2: as a contractor. That's pretty simple. Does the person have 26 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 2: a written agreement that says they are an independent contractor? Yep? 27 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 2: Does the worker have any restrictions from working for others? 28 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 2: If so, then know does the business terminate the agreement 29 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 2: for not accepting an additional task? Well, you can't do that. 30 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 2: And is the worker required to be available for certain times? 31 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 2: But if they are, can they subcontract the work? And 32 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,759 Speaker 2: so if this test is met and it's in black 33 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 2: and white, then the law will say that person is 34 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 2: no an employee. 35 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: Tricky part for this case, and I find it fascinating, 36 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: is that I understood that if you want to be 37 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: an Uber driver, I mean, if you want what these 38 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: full drivers want, it don't work for Uber. And yet 39 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: they didn't. They want to jerrymander the whole thing, and 40 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: they've been successful in jerrymandering it. So do you see 41 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: the problem in the law that the court saw? 42 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 2: Look, I don't. I look at it and fully respect 43 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 2: the law and the courts, But I look at what 44 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 2: we need more of a New Zealand, which is a 45 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 2: bit more certainty. And there is what's called a Section 46 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 2: six test under the Employment relations Act where people can 47 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 2: go in and have a look at the real relationship test. 48 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 2: It's called of the relationship. I would say that that's 49 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 2: still a little too much gray area for businesses to 50 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 2: provide more jobs for people. So let's make it really clear. 51 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: If they meet this gateway test, then it's not an 52 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 2: employee relationship, that's a contractor relationship. I think that will 53 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 2: lead to more work outcomes for kiwis right. 54 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: So what I'm asking really is you don't see what 55 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: the court has done as interventionists. They just read the 56 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: law as it stands and the law needs changing, or 57 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: do you see it as indivenuous and therefore it's a potential 58 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: problem down the track. 59 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: Look, I think they have abided by what the law 60 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 2: allows them to do. I don't think currently the law 61 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,119 Speaker 2: is as good as it could be, which is why 62 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 2: I'm stepping in to create a new change to the 63 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 2: law to make it very very simple. What will that 64 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 2: distinction between an employee and a contractor be? And I'm 65 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,239 Speaker 2: sure there are other jurisdictions around the world who are 66 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 2: grappling with the same issue. But I think you know 67 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 2: in the online, platform based world that we're going to 68 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 2: see more of in the future. We are going to 69 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 2: see people with very flexible work. We're going to see 70 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 2: people with multiple agreements at any time of the day, 71 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 2: and companies and contractors need a bit more certainty about 72 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 2: what does that actually mean for me going forward. 73 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: Good stuff, Nice to talk to you, appreciate very much. 74 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: Book van Belden, who is the Workplace Relations and Safety Minister. 75 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: For more from the my Casking Breakfast, listen live to 76 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: news talks. It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow 77 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: the podcast on iHeartRadio.