1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: Kyota. 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. 4 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: Have we lost the right to anonymity? By now? 5 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 2: We've all heard about the couple who went viral after 6 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 2: being caught looking embarrassed on a kiss cam at a 7 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 2: Coldplay concert in the US, an offhand, cheeky comment by 8 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 2: frontman Chris Martin and a whole lot of Internet saluting later, 9 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 2: and it. 10 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: Turns out they were colleagues having an affair. Oh look 11 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:39,279 Speaker 1: at these people. 12 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 3: I'll like the company. 13 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 2: Affair or details of their personal and professional lives spread 14 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 2: across social media like wildfire, and the man involved resigned as. 15 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: CEO of a major tech company. 16 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 2: But it's not the first time people have gone from 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 2: complete unknowns to Internet sensations, Which makes you wonder, in 18 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 2: an age when just about everyone has a camera in 19 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:15,559 Speaker 2: their pocket, is having our worst moments captured and put 20 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 2: on the Internet outside of our control? Is there anything 21 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 2: that can be done? Or are we just all at 22 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 2: risk of publicly being shamed? Today on the Front Page, 23 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 2: privacy lawyer Catherine Dalzell is with us to discuss what 24 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 2: the law says about privacy in our internet age. So, 25 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 2: as a privacy lawyer, what did you think when you 26 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 2: first saw this couple going viral? 27 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 4: I don't know if it was so much as a 28 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 4: privacy lawyer, but as a lawyer, we love drama and 29 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 4: we love watching it. So when I first had a 30 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 4: look at that, I found myself thinking, wow, you know, 31 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 4: he's a couple. They're not happy about being caught, And 32 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 4: I thought that Chris Martin should think about doing law 33 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 4: as well, because he immediately went to the same thoughts 34 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 4: as me. Are they shy or are they trying to 35 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 4: hide something? So, yeah, no, that was really interesting. 36 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: I don't think. 37 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 2: Either of these people involved longed to become known by 38 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 2: millions around the world. 39 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: Is there anything the two of them. 40 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 2: Can do now that their names and everything about them 41 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: are online? Or has the ship sailed as soon as 42 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 2: that they were on the jumbo Tron. 43 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 4: One thing that's interesting for me in these events is 44 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 4: our society has changed. So we're all carrying recording devices 45 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 4: on us wherever we go, we're out in public, there's 46 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 4: CCTV cameras everywhere. Our society has changed dramatically over the 47 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 4: last twenty to thirty years. The question is whether they 48 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 4: have a reasonable expectation of privacy, and whether the publication 49 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 4: of facts about them would be offensive to a reasonable person. 50 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,239 Speaker 4: And quite frankly, at a concert swaying along to Coldplay 51 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 4: is probably doesn't meet the legal tests of a privacy 52 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 4: interest in this and what's happened. But we do have 53 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 4: an interest in it because how would you feel if 54 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 4: that was you. You've gone to a concert, you're in 55 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 4: a private relationship, and suddenly you're being judged by the 56 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 4: world and we've got cancel culture, We've got that that well, 57 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 4: we've got the discussion that's going on around the world, 58 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 4: and how would you feel? And that's not good for 59 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 4: human beings because as I understand that their jobs, they're 60 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 4: under threat, their life is under threat, and they'll be 61 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 4: feeling unsafe. So is it good that we have human 62 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 4: beings feeling the way that they feel even though they 63 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 4: might have made a bad moral judgment. They weren't breaking 64 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 4: the law, they weren't doing anything that our government say 65 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 4: is wrong. They were just being people and they're being 66 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 4: judged by people. So what do we do about that? 67 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,119 Speaker 4: Not one hundred percent sure the law is the best 68 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 4: place to do that. We've got privacy, confidentiality, defamation, harassment, 69 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 4: and criminal law has also got an interest in things 70 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 4: like grooming, stalking, use of interception devices, but none of 71 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 4: that package really comes to what's going on online. So 72 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 4: I found myself thinking what should we do as human beings? 73 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 4: And it probably is more of a philosophical and moral discussion. 74 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 4: And we've got back to the old fashioned things of 75 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 4: do unto others as you have them do unto you. 76 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 4: You've got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all. 77 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 4: You know, those are the values that we grew up 78 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 4: with that actually have a place in our in social media. 79 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: Right, So we don't need a fancy schmancy lawyer. 80 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 2: We just need my mum to come up to a 81 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 2: select committee and tell everyone what to do. So, are 82 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 2: there any laws actually in place at the moment? 83 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 1: Or like when you're in. 84 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 2: Public, Say, if I am in line for a fast 85 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 2: food establishment, I see somebody being to the wait staff, 86 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 2: I film. 87 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: It, I put it online. 88 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 2: They're easily recognizable and the Internet does its thing and 89 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 2: finds out this person's name, address, where they work, et cetera. 90 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: Is that just bad luck? 91 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 4: Yeah? I think the short answer that is yes, did 92 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 4: they have a reasonable expectation of privacy in that sort 93 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 4: of environment, and I would say no, But I would say, 94 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 4: if you've got lining up to go into a concert, 95 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 4: you should have notices making you aware that there is 96 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 4: kiss cams going on, or you should you should know 97 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 4: that that's available to them, because and that to me 98 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 4: is an important privacy, right you know where you're going into. 99 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 4: It's when we walk into the supermarket. We know that 100 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 4: there's a camera, there are cameras there. Because the sophistication 101 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 4: of their cameras, particularly the concert organizers cameras, it's going 102 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 4: to be much better than yours of my archon. I've 103 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 4: been really interested in the discussion online of it. So 104 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 4: I went to the net ball and christ you the 105 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 4: other day yea technics and and suddenly I was on 106 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 4: not a kisskeem, I was on a camera and the 107 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 4: crowd dancing along to the music and having a good time. Now, 108 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 4: these were all reasonable depictions of me and everything like that, 109 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 4: but there was nothing that told me that that was 110 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 4: something when I came into the stadium, that that's what 111 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 4: I'd be experiencing. And I was quite quite interested in 112 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 4: that because we do see some people sort of ducking 113 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 4: wake Bess. They didn't want to be on camera, and 114 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 4: there was a man who brought a sign saying I 115 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 4: am with my wife and which I thought was really funny. 116 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 4: I did find stuff reflecting on that and had to 117 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 4: look around the internet to see what people are saying 118 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 4: about that. And one of the things that organizers have 119 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 4: got to do think about is whether this will put 120 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 4: people off going. Look, maybe at the Cold Blake concert, 121 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 4: so two people don't turn up, you know, or will 122 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 4: there be more? Will we we start saying, look, I'm 123 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 4: going to watch that from my my screen at home. 124 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 4: I'll buy your tickets for an online concert, but I'm 125 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 4: not going to go there because I just don't want 126 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 4: to run the risk of being judged and ends up 127 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 4: all over the world just because I might have drunk 128 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 4: a little bit too much or I'm hugging the wrong person. 129 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 2: I mean, this is hardly the first time in human 130 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 2: history that something like this has happened, right. It feels 131 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 2: like every few weeks there's some new random personal or 132 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 2: something who becomes an Internet villain almost overnight. One of 133 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 2: the early examples that I saw back in twenty thirteen. 134 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: Have you heard of the story of Justine Sacho. 135 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 5: She's the PR executive at the center of a digital firestorm. 136 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 5: Justine Saco now apologizing after this offensive tweet went viral, 137 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 5: going to Africa hope I don't get AIDS. Just kidding 138 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 5: I'm white. In a statement, Saco now tells ABC News 139 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 5: words cannot express how sorry I am and how necessary 140 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 5: it is for me to apologize to the people of 141 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 5: South Africa. She was fired Saturday from her top PR 142 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 5: job at internet giant IAC. Saco posted the tweet Friday, 143 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 5: just before a nearly twelve hour flight from London to 144 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 5: Cape Town, South Africa. While she was apparently offline in 145 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 5: mid air, Millions were online anxiously waiting for her to 146 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 5: land and see the uproar her tweet cast. The hashtag 147 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 5: has Justine landed yet became an instant trend. 148 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 2: I think we can all agree that that tweet is 149 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 2: unsavory to say the least. 150 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: It's a bad joke. 151 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 2: But her entire life was destroyed because of this within 152 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 2: like an eleven hour period. Why do you think people 153 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 2: think they have a right to dos someone online like that? 154 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 4: Jane Elston, who wrote one of my favorite books, Pride 155 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 4: and Prejudice, one of the characters says in that what 156 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 4: are we here for? That makes sport for our neighbors 157 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 4: and to laugh at them, and then in our turn 158 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 4: we are entertained by other people. But the other thing 159 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 4: is that, as is the case in Pride and Prejudice, 160 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 4: they dined with four and twenty families. It was a village. 161 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 4: Now we are a global village. We're millions, billions of 162 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 4: people are doing behaving in exactly the same way as 163 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 4: in Jane Austen's village. So we are always interested. There 164 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 4: are a number of drivers as to why we do that. 165 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 4: Look at somebody else. Let's take the effeck out of 166 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 4: someone out sosiet before we take the loger board out 167 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 4: of our own eye. So, as human beings, we are 168 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 4: interested in that comes from a lot of drivers. We're 169 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 4: human animals. We want to belong to a club. The 170 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,079 Speaker 4: club's weighing in, and so we join the club because 171 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 4: we want to be seen as part of the club. 172 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 4: And people get senses of belonging in participating and commenting, 173 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 4: regardless of the outcome on the other person that they have. 174 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 4: And as I say, the law hasn't found a way 175 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 4: to address this. It hasn't back in the seventeen eighteen 176 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 4: hundreds when Jane Osten was writing it't hasn't to date 177 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 4: it has, I say, the list of laws that we 178 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 4: talk about and we use. There are companies that have 179 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 4: been set up now to help cleanse the internet PR companies, 180 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 4: and I as a lawyer quite often refer clients to 181 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 4: PR companies to deal with public outfulls their legal matters. 182 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 4: And that's simply because our village has become so big 183 00:09:55,559 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 4: across countries, which means having in global rules hasn't. It 184 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 4: doesn't work, and so we now need to think about 185 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 4: how we're going to address it. And generally PR some privacy. 186 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 4: If you're in Europe, they've got a wonderful privacy law 187 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 4: called the Right to be Forgotten. So we don't have 188 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 4: this in New Zealand. And I think it's something we need, 189 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 4: which is where information is being disseminate about us, in 190 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 4: due course it's irrelevant and we shouldn't be able to 191 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 4: read it five ten years later. Right. 192 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 2: So if there's a nasty rumor or something going around, 193 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 2: or if I've like you know, been in the background 194 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,719 Speaker 2: of someone's selfie eating a hot dog or something. If 195 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 2: I lived in Europe, I can kind of scrub that 196 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 2: from the Internet. 197 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 4: Yes, and due course, if it's not relevant. But if 198 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 4: there's a reason why you are relevant in the background, 199 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 4: you're an eyewitness to something that happened or something like that, 200 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 4: there might be a good reason to maintain the information. 201 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 4: But also if you're just eating our hot dog, is 202 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 4: there any really any issue about it? It's all about reasonableness. 203 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 4: The law interfears when there's when it's unreasonable in that 204 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 4: sort of situation. I don't know, but I think that say, 205 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 4: for example, you're in a car accident and you've got 206 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 4: serious injuries, including physical serious injuries, and somebody wants to 207 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 4: quite a great date, I think it's a different story 208 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 4: in the law will and being. 209 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 3: Twitter is basically a mutual approval machine. We surround ourselves 210 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 3: with people who feel the same way we do, and 211 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 3: we approve each other and that's a really good feeling. 212 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 3: And if somebody gets in the way, we screen them out. 213 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:32,599 Speaker 3: And you know what, that's the opposite of it's the 214 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,319 Speaker 3: opposite of democracy. We wanted to show that we cared 215 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 3: about people dying of AIDS in Africa. Our desire to 216 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 3: be seen to be compassionate is what led us to 217 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 3: commit this profoundly uncompassionate pact. As Megan o Geblin wrote 218 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 3: in The Boston Review, this isn't social justice. It's a 219 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 3: cathartic alternative. 220 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 2: And it's funny you bring up Jane Austen because when 221 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 2: I was reading through this bit witch hunty, so like 222 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 2: back in the day, it's kind of like today you're 223 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 2: docksed online and might lose your job, but back in 224 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 2: the day you may have been burnt at the stake. 225 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 4: Yes, exactly, And it's that sort of thing, you know, 226 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 4: for the individuals involved, it's really really important that they 227 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 4: understand this too shall pass and that they've got to 228 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 4: they've got to go through that that's a consequence for 229 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,199 Speaker 4: their behavior and their judgment. The other thing is that 230 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 4: we also had to participate. And I come back to 231 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 4: I'd love to see your mum and chat with her 232 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 4: about this, because I think she would be right. You 233 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 4: can't say anything nice, say nothing at all. Why are 234 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 4: we wading into this? Why are we vilifying people? Why 235 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 4: are we canceling them and doing that to people when 236 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 4: they just made a mistake. And also, how would you 237 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 4: feel if somebody caught out one of your stakes. 238 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 2: So, Catherine, what are the privacy laws protecting us in 239 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 2: the social media age? Another example, what about you just 240 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 2: happen to be in the background of someone's selfie. 241 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: What about door cams? 242 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 4: Well, if you choose to go onto somebody's property and 243 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 4: they're not an agency, they're just somebody who's got a 244 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 4: door cam on their property. Although you know the door 245 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 4: cams are used a lot by Airbnb and organizations like that, 246 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 4: the thing is is that once you're on the property 247 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 4: in that private capacity, they're entitled to mate recordings. Airbnb 248 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 4: should have notices up about that they because they are 249 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 4: a separate agency. But if you choose to go onto 250 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 4: somebody's private property, come into my house and I have 251 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 4: a door cam, they were entitled to film. So say, 252 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 4: for example, this couple that were dancing, and perhaps if 253 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 4: they just acted it out really as strongly and just 254 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 4: said yeah, no, we're just mates and you know, and 255 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 4: things like that. You know, I hope my mates are 256 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 4: dancing one with one of my mates at the nicol 257 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 4: you know, it's there's things like that. But if I 258 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 4: had if there was a photo of me just dancing 259 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 4: along and everyone published that I was having an affair 260 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 4: with my mate. I defamation and sits there. So it's 261 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 4: the inferences that we draw from the video and Chris 262 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 4: Martin exemplified it properly. They're either shy or they're having 263 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 4: an affair. He's at risk of defamation on that. But 264 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 4: unfortunately it turned out to be from research that was 265 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 4: done and the appears that what I read on the 266 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 4: internet that they see me doing all the qualifiers because 267 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 4: of a good deformation lawyer, that it appears they might 268 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 4: have been having an affair. So that was a big 269 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 4: call for him to make because he was at risk 270 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 4: of defamation and saying that because they might have just 271 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 4: been good friends having a dance a long and loving 272 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 4: Chris Martin that he's just had his arms around here. 273 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 4: It was nothing, absolutely nothing. They could have brazened it out, 274 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 4: but then ducking away seem to imply or infirm and 275 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,359 Speaker 4: in some substitute, but equally it could have been public embarrassment. 276 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 4: Who likes being on there. I watched it book Metal 277 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 4: the other night. Lots of people were hiding their faces 278 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 4: because I didn't want to be on a public camera. 279 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 6: You know, it's interesting to think about the idea that 280 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 6: if they had played it cool, like if he if 281 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 6: the reaction had not been that, then nobody would be 282 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 6: talking about this today, And yet it's all over our feed. 283 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 6: I feel for the families involved. Obviously this is a 284 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 6: tragic and upsetting, but also people are watching all the time. 285 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 6: Ryan and I were talking about that, You're always recorded. 286 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 6: There's always eyes by the way. 287 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 4: Cold Place, next stop, Saturday Madison, and you're going, I'm 288 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 4: going whether permitted taking the punche I'm ready to go. 289 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 6: Well, don't take anybody you don't want to be on 290 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 6: the show, or. 291 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 5: It's going to be fun. 292 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: I'm excited to hear about it. 293 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 2: Well, looking at the Coldplay case, these people got identified 294 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 2: incredibly quickly online and the details of their social media pages, 295 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 2: like we've said, share all over the place. 296 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: I read somewhere actually the. 297 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 2: Guy's wife would have woken up to thousands of messages 298 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 2: before she even knew what had happened. Have we given 299 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 2: up the right to protect our content, to protect our image, 300 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 2: even if we make all of our social media accounts private. 301 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 4: Well, it's kind of like we become public figures. And 302 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 4: I you know, we see this a lot with people 303 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 4: who are doing online advertising, who are influencers and doing 304 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 4: that sort of thing, and then they go on one 305 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 4: of these reality television programs and then they wonder why 306 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 4: things are going badly for them. It's just competing public 307 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 4: interests and they put their life out there, they're judging, 308 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 4: they get judged, and then suddenly that doesn't seem to 309 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 4: go so well for them. So I think that if 310 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 4: you're putting things out in public, and I always caution 311 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 4: people about putting things out in public, there's a really 312 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 4: really good reason. It's not for docxing, and it's not 313 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 4: for public humiliation. The reason why you shouldn't put things 314 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 4: out in public is because criminals on the internet are 315 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 4: using our information to attack us, and they will ring 316 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 4: up and pretend to be people that know us, or 317 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 4: they ring up and talk to people and pretend to 318 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 4: be people they know us, all because we're handed over 319 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 4: our information on the Internet and they are using that 320 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 4: information to get access to our money, into our private records, 321 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 4: and it's working. The reason why we shouldn't be looking 322 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 4: down and taking control of it is because people will 323 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 4: be behaved like people, and that's what criminals are doing. 324 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 3: Right. 325 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 2: So, in terms of doxing people on the internet, and 326 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 2: may and upending a life, so to speak, just after 327 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 2: you know, one mistake, one tweet, one coldplay concept. Legally, 328 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 2: there's not much we can do, but morally, as a 329 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 2: society we can take a look at our actions and 330 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 2: see where we go from here. 331 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's why what you're doing today is really important, 332 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 4: because it's about getting out to people and saying how 333 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 4: can we be better? How can we do this better? 334 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,719 Speaker 4: And there are some things that are there. If that 335 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 4: couple have been involved in an accident or something really 336 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 4: bad it's happened to them that had nothing to do 337 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 4: with their relationship, then there may have been some privacy 338 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 4: and interests. If they hadn't been having an affair, they 339 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 4: had the right of defamation. Arguably, some of the docs 340 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 4: in they're receiving good amount to harassment, particularly if the 341 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 4: media are camped outside their house, as their harassment laws 342 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 4: or criminal laws have some interest in that is somebody 343 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 4: trying as we've seen the celebrities, is the media trying 344 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 4: to listen in to their telephone conversations using sept and devices. 345 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 4: We have laws that are interested in those sorts of things. 346 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 4: But at the entertay, if you're just dancing along with 347 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 4: a Coldplay concert, and there are cameras going about. Pray 348 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 4: to hear anybody's game. 349 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Catherine, my pleasure. That's it for 350 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 2: this episode of the Front Page. You can read more 351 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 2: about today's stories and extensive news coverage at azidherld, dot 352 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 2: co dot MZD. The Front Page is produced by Ethan 353 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 2: Sells and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. 354 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 355 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 356 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 357 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:03,360 Speaker 2: behind the headlines.