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Speaker 1: The member's bill has become a government bill. This is

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Speaker 1: the Business on Kids and Social Media. Catherine Wed's Instaban

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Speaker 1: bill stays in the ballot, but Luxon says that parents

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Speaker 1: love this idea. So Erica Stanford has picked up the

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Speaker 1: government work on the under sixteen social media restrictions. They're

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Speaker 1: calling them not a ban but potential restrictions. Now. Melinda

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Speaker 1: McLain is a social media parenting expert from the new

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Speaker 1: group Before sixteen. Who's with me this morning, Linda, Good morning,

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Speaker 1: Karida Ryan, Good to have you on the show. First

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Speaker 1: of all, this group that's been set up, is this

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Speaker 1: all a coincidence that it's been set up at this

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Speaker 1: at the time that the government's doing all this stuff.

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Speaker 2: No, not a coincident. I think two things at play.

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Speaker 2: One is that Before sixteen has actually been working on

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Speaker 2: this issue in the background for months, nearly a year,

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Speaker 2: and has been raising the issue across all members of

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Speaker 2: Parliament in all parties. But there's also a point that

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Speaker 2: we're hitting as a society, I think where we've got

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Speaker 2: this sort of tidal wave of awareness around some of

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Speaker 2: the harm and the issues, so you know, we are

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Speaker 2: really coming to I think a societal turning point which

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Speaker 2: the government is aware of as well as as well

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Speaker 2: as parents who are who are actually sort of waking

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Speaker 2: up to the issues.

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Speaker 1: Is the problems. The age verification thing is a big

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Speaker 1: problem right. This is what the Australians are having problems with.

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Speaker 1: How do you verify a child's age without us all

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Speaker 1: having to send in a photo of our passports?

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Speaker 2: Ran I think this is a really big misconception that

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Speaker 2: thing that this can't be done. So there's a couple

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Speaker 2: of things I'd say. So the first is that age

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Speaker 2: verification currently exists within big tech platforms, so they are

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Speaker 2: using their own age verification systems with a lot of

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Speaker 2: accuracy already. They just have never had an incentive to

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Speaker 2: deploy this as something that they need to do to

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Speaker 2: have a minimum age because there's no legislation to enforce it.

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Speaker 2: And the other thing I'd say is that there's an

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Speaker 2: higher age verification industry outside of the tech that are

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Speaker 2: working on this as well, and it hasn't so much

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Speaker 2: been a problem in Australia. It's that Australia is going

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Speaker 2: through a process of prototyping different options and being pitched

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Speaker 2: to by a bunch of different organizations and working out

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Speaker 2: what the best solution is. How do you not that

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Speaker 2: they can't do it?

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Speaker 1: Can you explain how they do do it then?

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Speaker 2: Without Yeah, so there's a couple of different ways, and

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Speaker 2: what we think would be the best way would be

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Speaker 2: a combination of what's called facial recognition, biometric scanning, and

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Speaker 2: then using an ID token to match those two things.

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Speaker 2: And these can be done with over ninety nine percent accuracy,

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Speaker 2: That's what all the trials are saying.

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Speaker 1: And so you have to give your biometric data to Facebook.

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Speaker 2: No, in simple terms, you're not handing over your data.

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Speaker 2: This is done externally by a third party, and you

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Speaker 2: don't hand over your data. So it just it will

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Speaker 2: basically verify an ID token. That doesn't mean you're handing

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Speaker 2: over your data.

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Speaker 1: Who how do that? How do they verify it? Then?

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Speaker 1: I mean they must have to know that it's yours.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there will have to be a linking to this

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Speaker 2: and the same way that we do this with things

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Speaker 2: like real Me accounts for bank accounts. It's just the

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Speaker 2: issue with verification with something like real Me is that

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Speaker 2: that's not working on actually determining the difference between a

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Speaker 2: fifteen and a sixteen year old. So that's the key.

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Speaker 2: The key.

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Speaker 1: What about because there are problems that well, it could

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Speaker 1: create problems for other people. Isn't this about parents knowing

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Speaker 1: what their kids are doing. If you don't want your

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Speaker 1: kid on social media, don't buy them a smartphone.

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Speaker 2: I think that is something that would commonly be said

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Speaker 2: by people who are not a parent of a thirteen

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Speaker 2: or fourteen year old.

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Speaker 1: That is me, to be transparent, that is me.

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Speaker 2: There we go this. You parents are not equipped to

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Speaker 2: face up to what is happening with big tech. It

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Speaker 2: is moving too fast. And we're not even talking about

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Speaker 2: the issues of deep fakes of AI companions. You know,

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Speaker 2: we are simply talking about the algorithmic feeding of content

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Speaker 2: at the.

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Speaker 1: Moment, but the actually owning the phone in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Explain to me why that is so hard that a

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Speaker 1: parent can't say to their kid n I mean, my

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Speaker 1: mom said no to me about so many things growing up.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't allout a cell phone. I mean, yeah, what's

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Speaker 1: so hard about saying no till you're sixteenth?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I think the other thing that legislation will do,

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Speaker 2: because it's a really it's a really good point. Why

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Speaker 2: not just say no? But but actually, parents are no

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Speaker 2: match for this. And if you're out on a limb

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Speaker 2: with your kid, which at the moment, because the societal

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Speaker 2: norms are so far the other way, those need to

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Speaker 2: shift dramatically.

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Speaker 1: So so parents and parents actually just need a harden

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Speaker 1: up and tough enough.

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Speaker 2: This is not a parenting issue, Ryan, this is and

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Speaker 2: it is It is unfair to put this on to parents.

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Speaker 2: They cannot, they cannot be a match for these big

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Speaker 2: tech companies. And we while while we do need but

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Speaker 2: you can.

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Speaker 1: If you don't have a phone, Okay, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: mean simple. They big tech can't get you without a smartphone.

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Speaker 2: They can get you, and they can get you through

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Speaker 2: iPads and family computers and laptops. And what we're talking

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Speaker 2: about is a really comprehensive overhaul of our online safety

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Speaker 2: reforms for kids in New Zealand. We are shockingly behind

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Speaker 2: and so parents will have a role in this, but

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Speaker 2: actually we need change at a system level and we

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Speaker 2: need the government as a first step to set in

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Speaker 2: place some legislation. And Erica Stanford is an excellent person

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Speaker 2: to be leading.

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Speaker 1: Good She's the best person you could have on the job.

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Speaker 1: I reckon, Melinda, Hey, interesting stuff where you look forward

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Speaker 1: to having more debates like this and I'm sure in

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Speaker 1: the days and weeks and months ahead. Melinda McLain with

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Speaker 1: a social media parenting expert from the group Before sixteen.

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Speaker 1: For more from Early Edition with Ryan Bridge, listen live

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Speaker 1: to News Talks it Be from five am weekdays, or

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Speaker 1: follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.