WEBVTT - Leighton Smith Podcast #242 - June 5th 2024 - Oliver Hartwitch 0:00:09.133 --> 0:00:12.013 You're listening to a podcast from news Talks at B. 0:00:12.413 --> 0:00:16.213 Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 0:00:16.813 --> 0:00:19.813 It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all 0:00:19.853 --> 0:00:24.373 the information, all the debates of the US Now the 0:00:24.533 --> 0:00:27.733 Leyton Smith Podcast powered by News Talks it B. 0:00:28.333 --> 0:00:31.413 Welcome to Podcasts two hundred and forty two. For June five, 0:00:31.773 --> 0:00:35.813 twenty twenty four. Oliver Hardrich, Executive Director of the New 0:00:35.893 --> 0:00:40.613 Zealand Institute, on the twenty twenty four budget, the good 0:00:40.853 --> 0:00:45.573 and the disappointing. We have some basics and expand discussion 0:00:45.613 --> 0:00:50.333 to other realms such as Switzerland, the UK election and 0:00:50.373 --> 0:00:53.813 the future of the Tory Party, New Zealand, economic growth 0:00:53.853 --> 0:00:57.773 and productivity and will it really take fifteen years until 0:00:57.893 --> 0:01:01.333 twenty forty for the economy to be righted? And then 0:01:01.373 --> 0:01:05.133 from seemingly out of nowhere, we found ourselves talking about 0:01:05.733 --> 0:01:11.413 what is known as the delectable lives multiculturalism, and that's 0:01:11.453 --> 0:01:14.453 a very interesting little segment. Then at the back end 0:01:14.493 --> 0:01:17.533 of two forty two, we look at the lost generation, 0:01:18.173 --> 0:01:23.213 lost in the underbelly of a dysfunctional, fatherless society. A 0:01:23.253 --> 0:01:27.773 psychologist reports from two thousand and nine, when things were 0:01:27.813 --> 0:01:31.733 bad and with considerable foresight, predicts what will take place 0:01:31.933 --> 0:01:34.413 if nothing's done about it, and today we live with 0:01:34.493 --> 0:01:38.973 the consequences of inaction. Don't miss it. But first a 0:01:39.053 --> 0:01:41.453 quick word on something that I know that you're curious about, 0:01:41.613 --> 0:01:45.933 the next US president. The jury verdict in the Trump 0:01:45.973 --> 0:01:51.573 case came out the day after last week's podcast. That 0:01:51.813 --> 0:01:54.333 was frustrating, But there has been and there will be 0:01:54.413 --> 0:01:56.973 so much written and said on the case. It requires 0:01:57.533 --> 0:02:02.293 what you might call a record setting length podcast on 0:02:02.333 --> 0:02:05.293 my part in order to address it. But here is 0:02:05.333 --> 0:02:09.093 my brief take. The case will be studied in law 0:02:09.133 --> 0:02:12.413 classes forever. It will in the end go down as 0:02:12.453 --> 0:02:16.093 the most corrupt court room in American history, with the 0:02:16.173 --> 0:02:18.773 judge and the prosecutor setting new lows, and I mean 0:02:18.973 --> 0:02:23.293 really new lows in legal ethics. But I want to 0:02:23.373 --> 0:02:26.253 quote you a little bit of a little bit of 0:02:26.293 --> 0:02:31.773 detail there was. As we've heard since that decision was announced, 0:02:32.093 --> 0:02:35.013 we've heard how much money the Trump campaign has raised. 0:02:35.493 --> 0:02:38.493 But it doesn't stop there. Trump campaign says it raised 0:02:38.533 --> 0:02:41.773 fifty three million within a day of his New York verdict. 0:02:42.333 --> 0:02:45.333 The ultra wealthy Republican donors are rallying behind the former 0:02:45.453 --> 0:02:49.933 US President Donald Trump following his historical trial and criminal conviction. 0:02:50.933 --> 0:02:55.613 But there is much more. There was an announcement made 0:02:56.453 --> 0:02:59.733 on my phone as I as I was working this morning, 0:03:00.253 --> 0:03:01.773 and I'll get to that in a second, because it 0:03:01.813 --> 0:03:05.693 follows on from this. Among the billionaires who have been 0:03:06.293 --> 0:03:11.853 turning and supporting Trump are Silicon Valley investor David Sachs, 0:03:12.613 --> 0:03:16.453 who posted on X that there is now only one 0:03:16.493 --> 0:03:19.813 issue in this election, whether the American people will stand 0:03:19.853 --> 0:03:24.093 for the USA becoming a banana republic. And he's right 0:03:24.133 --> 0:03:28.493 on target, over and above what matters about Trump, That's 0:03:28.573 --> 0:03:32.693 the most important thing. On June sixth, mister Sachs and 0:03:32.773 --> 0:03:36.533 fellow investor Cheamus I don't know how to pronounce his 0:03:36.573 --> 0:03:40.373 second name, are planning to host a fundraiser for Trump 0:03:40.453 --> 0:03:44.453 in San Francisco. Attendees are reportedly being asked to contribute 0:03:44.573 --> 0:03:50.613 as much as three hundred thousand dollars each. Now, while 0:03:50.613 --> 0:03:53.093 I was while I was working, my phone came up 0:03:53.133 --> 0:03:59.653 with an X release that fundraiser had sold out not 0:03:59.773 --> 0:04:02.973 just for three hundred thousand an individual, but for five 0:04:03.053 --> 0:04:06.613 hundred thousand four a couple, and they expect during the 0:04:06.653 --> 0:04:11.013 course of the function to raise many many more millions. 0:04:11.413 --> 0:04:14.693 Now the list of billionaires who are racing to his 0:04:14.813 --> 0:04:19.213 support is shocking a lot of people because, especially when 0:04:19.213 --> 0:04:23.253 it comes to Silicon Valley, because they're turning in their 0:04:23.333 --> 0:04:28.293 droves because they realize finally that they were backing the 0:04:28.293 --> 0:04:31.493 wrong horse all along. Now there's another article I want 0:04:31.493 --> 0:04:33.813 to make a quick reference to, and and it's sort 0:04:33.813 --> 0:04:37.693 of personal, and it's a bit lighting and in its 0:04:37.693 --> 0:04:41.333 tone for this simple reason. From a site by James 0:04:41.333 --> 0:04:45.413 Howard Kunstler. It's almost as if the principles, the prosecutors, 0:04:45.413 --> 0:04:48.613 and the judge were performing for their political audience with 0:04:48.733 --> 0:04:52.253 a wink and a nod and a stage whisper. Watch 0:04:52.413 --> 0:04:56.893 this as they ignore yet another fundamental element of American 0:04:56.973 --> 0:05:01.453 due process. The ninnies of Biden world seem to not 0:05:01.613 --> 0:05:04.853 understand that by subjecting mister Trump to a kangaroo court, 0:05:05.413 --> 0:05:08.213 they've made him the kind of outdoor that Americans revere 0:05:08.413 --> 0:05:11.973 above every other archetypal hero. I just got to say 0:05:11.973 --> 0:05:14.413 here at this point, the first hero in my life 0:05:14.813 --> 0:05:18.293 was Robin Hood. He is the new Robin Hood, the 0:05:18.373 --> 0:05:22.493 people's outlaw, with Joe Biden relegated as the wicked sir guy, 0:05:22.573 --> 0:05:26.013 of Gisbon, master of foul play, and servant of the 0:05:26.093 --> 0:05:30.973 evil Regent Prince John in Braggan's Barack Obama. The galvanizing 0:05:31.013 --> 0:05:33.493 moment of this melodrama was not the verdict of the 0:05:33.613 --> 0:05:38.573 judge one Merchant's Kangaroo Corral of a Court, but the 0:05:38.573 --> 0:05:41.573 next day in the White House, when Joe Biden was 0:05:41.613 --> 0:05:45.093 asked to comment on it, as he shuffled away from 0:05:45.133 --> 0:05:50.773 the podium, halted, turned and smirked silently at the cameras, 0:05:51.293 --> 0:05:55.613 a gesture that is sure to live in infamy. If 0:05:55.653 --> 0:05:57.413 you didn't see that, you need to if you ever 0:05:57.413 --> 0:06:00.653 get a chance, because it's just picture has a million words. 0:06:01.213 --> 0:06:03.093 The fund should really kick in when the judge gets 0:06:03.093 --> 0:06:06.213 to sentenced Trump the outlaw on July eleven, a few 0:06:06.253 --> 0:06:09.573 days before the Republican Convention, et cetera, et cetera. Now, 0:06:09.693 --> 0:06:13.613 in a sane world, of course, the US Supreme Court 0:06:13.653 --> 0:06:18.373 would be entreated to adjudicate this gross insult to due process, 0:06:18.733 --> 0:06:22.933 as spelled out in Section one of the fourteenth Amendment. 0:06:23.333 --> 0:06:25.253 And this is where I'm going to terminate it in 0:06:25.333 --> 0:06:29.613 a second, because this is just one example, but it's 0:06:29.653 --> 0:06:32.933 a prime example of the corruption of the court here 0:06:33.053 --> 0:06:38.613 is Section one of the Fourteenth Amendment. No State shall 0:06:38.613 --> 0:06:42.653 make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges 0:06:42.853 --> 0:06:46.973 or immunities of citizens of the United States. Nor shall 0:06:47.013 --> 0:06:50.813 any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property 0:06:51.093 --> 0:06:54.613 with our due process of law, nor deny to any 0:06:54.693 --> 0:06:59.053 person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. 0:06:59.413 --> 0:07:01.053 Which you might have noticed that this is not a 0:07:01.133 --> 0:07:04.333 sane world, at least not these days. Now. The point 0:07:04.373 --> 0:07:08.693 being is the prosecution and the judge work together to 0:07:08.893 --> 0:07:12.453 smash Section one of the fourteenth Amendment. And that's only 0:07:12.493 --> 0:07:18.133 one example corruption beyond belief. 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Window Witch from wet 0:08:16.853 --> 0:08:22.573 and Forget over twenty company standalone stores nationwide Wetinforget dot 0:08:22.613 --> 0:08:24.533 co dot NZ or you can call them on a 0:08:24.533 --> 0:08:28.213 weight hundred and three zero three thousand window Witch from 0:08:28.373 --> 0:08:29.133 wet and Forget. 0:08:29.893 --> 0:08:31.053 Laighton Smith. 0:08:36.893 --> 0:08:40.933 Oliver Hartwich is the executive director of the New Zealand Initiative. 0:08:40.973 --> 0:08:43.693 He's been on the podcast on a number of occasions 0:08:43.693 --> 0:08:46.773 over the years and it's always a pleasure to say 0:08:47.573 --> 0:08:50.453 thank you if you're agreeing to discuss the budget with 0:08:50.573 --> 0:08:55.053 us and other matters, because this conversation won't be restricted 0:08:55.253 --> 0:08:59.933 just to the budget, but Oliver from your own perspective 0:09:00.213 --> 0:09:04.373 and or from the Initiative's perspective collectively, if you want, 0:09:05.213 --> 0:09:08.093 what is your overall take on this budget? 0:09:08.573 --> 0:09:10.933 But first of all, lighton. Great to be with you again. 0:09:11.293 --> 0:09:13.613 Always a pleasure to talk to you. And as for 0:09:13.693 --> 0:09:17.813 the budget, well, I wasn't disappointed, but that was only 0:09:17.813 --> 0:09:23.213 because I didn't have high expectations. The budget was disappointing, 0:09:23.253 --> 0:09:26.253 perhaps in one way, until we get back to twenty 0:09:26.413 --> 0:09:30.573 nineteen spending levels. Remember that was Grant Robertson's well being budget. 0:09:31.133 --> 0:09:33.973 This budget now reveals we'll have to wait until twenty 0:09:34.213 --> 0:09:37.773 thirty eight, and I think that sums up this budget 0:09:37.853 --> 0:09:40.893 in a nutshell. It is I would say, not very ambitious, 0:09:41.733 --> 0:09:45.533 which is also perhaps a bit disappointing if you consider 0:09:45.533 --> 0:09:48.173 that this is, of course the new government's first budget, 0:09:48.213 --> 0:09:51.173 and usually first budgets are the most ambitious of them all, 0:09:51.653 --> 0:09:54.373 because that's when they still think they have a mandate 0:09:54.413 --> 0:09:56.293 to be a bit more radical, to try a few 0:09:56.293 --> 0:09:59.653 more things, and then usually governments actually lose that ambition 0:09:59.773 --> 0:10:03.333 gradually over the years. So for a first budget, I 0:10:03.493 --> 0:10:06.493 would have liked to see a bit more ambition to 0:10:06.533 --> 0:10:09.973 bring spending levels back underc because right now they aren't. 0:10:10.373 --> 0:10:13.733 You've actually introduced something that I wasn't anticipating for a while, 0:10:14.133 --> 0:10:17.213 so now I will park it just for the minute. 0:10:17.813 --> 0:10:22.373 But where would you suggest they could have curbed the 0:10:22.973 --> 0:10:26.173 ambitions that they that they are exercising well. 0:10:26.213 --> 0:10:29.493 The thing is, if you just go back five years 0:10:29.533 --> 0:10:33.813 to that twenty nineteen Well Being Budget, that was when 0:10:33.893 --> 0:10:37.133 Jasinda Adern and Grant Robertson introduced their new vision for 0:10:37.173 --> 0:10:41.093 fiscal policy, and spending in that Well Being Budget was 0:10:41.253 --> 0:10:45.453 about twenty nine percent of GDP and it was celebrated 0:10:45.573 --> 0:10:49.693 as something progressive and ambitious from a kind of progressive 0:10:49.733 --> 0:10:54.413 side of politics perspective, and nobody would have accused Adirn 0:10:54.493 --> 0:10:57.933 and Robertson of being driven by austerity or by the 0:10:57.933 --> 0:11:01.773 wish to slash government spending. We now have a government 0:11:01.813 --> 0:11:06.053 budget delivered by a National led government that promises to 0:11:06.053 --> 0:11:09.093 spend thirty three percent of GDP, and yet people are 0:11:09.093 --> 0:11:12.813 going crazy over how austerity driven this budget is, when 0:11:12.853 --> 0:11:15.773 in fact they're spending four percent of GDP more than 0:11:15.813 --> 0:11:18.813 the Adern government did in their first Well Being budget. 0:11:19.373 --> 0:11:23.173 And that's what I find astonishing. Actually, So when Adurn 0:11:23.253 --> 0:11:26.013 spends twenty nine percent, people think this is really generous, 0:11:26.493 --> 0:11:29.213 and when Nicola Willis spends thirty three percent, people say 0:11:29.213 --> 0:11:32.973 this is actually quite austere. And what I would have 0:11:33.053 --> 0:11:35.853 liked to see in this budget now is actually a 0:11:35.893 --> 0:11:40.333 pathway back to where we were before overd and ideally 0:11:40.453 --> 0:11:43.133 where we were in twenty seventeen before Adurn took over. 0:11:43.253 --> 0:11:49.213 But the pathway to that physical normality is exceedingly long. 0:11:49.373 --> 0:11:51.933 So if you have to wait fourteen years just to 0:11:51.973 --> 0:11:54.253 go back to where we were in twenty nineteen, I 0:11:54.293 --> 0:11:56.933 don't think that is very ambitious. The other thing I 0:11:56.973 --> 0:12:00.733 would just mention is actually we have seen enormous spending 0:12:00.773 --> 0:12:03.733 increases over the last few years. We just looked into 0:12:03.773 --> 0:12:07.333 them the other day and found that in twenty nineteen 0:12:08.333 --> 0:12:11.173 we of course projected where we would be today, and 0:12:11.213 --> 0:12:14.333 so we could actually compare these figures now and realize that, 0:12:14.733 --> 0:12:17.813 for example, in health, we are currently spending eight billion 0:12:17.853 --> 0:12:22.093 dollars more then we would have anticipated just five years ago. 0:12:22.773 --> 0:12:26.293 And then you ask yourself, okay, so we're spending eight 0:12:26.333 --> 0:12:29.493 billion dollars more in health even compared to what we 0:12:29.573 --> 0:12:32.213 thought we would, And yet where is all of that 0:12:32.373 --> 0:12:35.213 money and what has it achieved? Because I haven't actually 0:12:35.213 --> 0:12:39.133 seen any great improvements in health delivery. What we have 0:12:39.253 --> 0:12:42.493 seen is of course a massive reorganization of the health sector, 0:12:42.813 --> 0:12:45.093 where we got ready for DHBs, where we created a 0:12:45.133 --> 0:12:48.893 new our Health authority, where we instituted a lot new 0:12:49.293 --> 0:12:52.733 kind of organizational structures without actually seeing any results. So 0:12:52.773 --> 0:12:54.653 if you're asking where I would have liked to see 0:12:55.093 --> 0:12:57.893 an emphasis in this budget is actually trying to curb 0:12:58.053 --> 0:13:01.413 all of these structures, all of this spending that doesn't 0:13:01.453 --> 0:13:04.933 yield any results, and in doing so then point a 0:13:05.013 --> 0:13:07.453 clearer pathway back to physical normality. 0:13:07.613 --> 0:13:12.333 So the obviously question is why didn't they do it. 0:13:14.013 --> 0:13:16.973 Well? And the obvious answer is because it's totally hard, 0:13:17.133 --> 0:13:21.653 because you're coming from a perspective where the budget is broken, 0:13:21.733 --> 0:13:24.733 and not because of their own faults, but because of 0:13:24.813 --> 0:13:27.733 everything that happened in the six years prior so. The 0:13:27.733 --> 0:13:30.853 previous government really tested the limits of spending to destruction. 0:13:31.413 --> 0:13:34.933 They created an almighty mess in fiscal policy. The left 0:13:34.973 --> 0:13:38.773 a lot of pistol cliffs in the budget, meaning they 0:13:39.293 --> 0:13:41.773 basically said we're going to fund stuff, but only really 0:13:41.813 --> 0:13:44.053 funded them for the next year or two, and so 0:13:44.093 --> 0:13:48.413 they left fiscal holes everywhere across government policy for the 0:13:48.453 --> 0:13:51.333 new government to clean up. So, coming into that situation 0:13:51.413 --> 0:13:55.133 now and with just a year actually in government, it 0:13:55.213 --> 0:13:57.373 is difficult for any government to turn this around. And 0:13:57.533 --> 0:14:00.533 I understand that a lot of the changes required will 0:14:00.573 --> 0:14:03.693 also take years to think welfare spending. The previous government 0:14:04.253 --> 0:14:08.493 did not actually enforce welfare rules, eligibility rules, and we 0:14:08.613 --> 0:14:11.493 filled the welfare roles with people who shouldn't have been there. 0:14:12.213 --> 0:14:15.293 That is enormously costly, and to turn that around will 0:14:15.293 --> 0:14:17.653 take a long time. You probably can't do that overnight. 0:14:18.413 --> 0:14:20.933 I mean, for all the things done over six years, 0:14:20.933 --> 0:14:22.733 you can't expect them to fix it in a couple 0:14:22.733 --> 0:14:25.093 of months. But I would have still liked to see 0:14:25.093 --> 0:14:28.653 a clearer pathway out of this mess and a clearer 0:14:28.693 --> 0:14:31.133 ambition to saying, look, we really want to go back 0:14:31.173 --> 0:14:32.813 to where we once were as a country. 0:14:33.653 --> 0:14:39.333 Okay, then let me ask you a reverse question. What 0:14:39.893 --> 0:14:42.333 would you would like to have seen done? What could 0:14:42.413 --> 0:14:46.253 they have done to head back in that direction that 0:14:46.333 --> 0:14:48.413 would have won them plowed it well? 0:14:48.453 --> 0:14:51.613 There are small line items in the budget where you 0:14:51.653 --> 0:14:55.173 can see that they probably didn't really go through the 0:14:55.173 --> 0:14:59.133 budget with a fine tooth code. For example, subsidies for 0:14:59.173 --> 0:15:02.493 the film industry. They are still running over forty million dollars. 0:15:02.533 --> 0:15:04.813 Now you ask yourself, is that really something that you 0:15:04.933 --> 0:15:05.453 want to do? 0:15:05.973 --> 0:15:06.333 Well? 0:15:06.413 --> 0:15:09.373 The rest of the budget is deep in the I 0:15:09.413 --> 0:15:11.693 would have actually thought no, you can probably go a 0:15:11.733 --> 0:15:15.373 bit harder on that. Next thing is they have issued 0:15:15.573 --> 0:15:18.813 a blank target to government departments to cut between six 0:15:18.813 --> 0:15:21.413 and a half and seven and a half percent spending, 0:15:21.413 --> 0:15:25.453 and we have seen initial cuts of course to public 0:15:25.453 --> 0:15:29.293 sector employment public service employment to be more specific. Well, 0:15:29.493 --> 0:15:31.453 I think this could go a lot further, because we 0:15:31.573 --> 0:15:35.053 know we started from forty seven thousand public servants in 0:15:35.133 --> 0:15:37.453 twenty seventeen. We are now at a level of about 0:15:37.493 --> 0:15:41.253 sixty five thousand. They cut about two or maybe three thousand, 0:15:41.733 --> 0:15:43.533 but there's a long way to go on until we 0:15:43.613 --> 0:15:45.333 go back to the levels we previously had. 0:15:46.733 --> 0:15:51.773 Was it wise? I wonder to not take the big leap, 0:15:51.933 --> 0:15:58.013 but the small step at this particular point, because well, 0:15:58.013 --> 0:16:00.293 the best reason I can suggest for it is that 0:16:00.333 --> 0:16:05.053 by making all of those people unemployed, it would create 0:16:05.093 --> 0:16:09.573 an extra cost in welfare and put far too many 0:16:09.573 --> 0:16:17.013 people on the unemployment list in a country that is 0:16:18.133 --> 0:16:19.853 not really creating jobs. 0:16:21.413 --> 0:16:24.373 No, I don't think so for a moment. And I mean, 0:16:24.413 --> 0:16:27.453 you wouldn't seriously suggest that all those people now employed 0:16:27.453 --> 0:16:30.653 by the public service in Wellington are so poorly qualified 0:16:30.653 --> 0:16:32.453 that they wouldn't find jobs elsewhere, would you. 0:16:32.613 --> 0:16:35.053 Well, if I was going to be honest, I'd say 0:16:35.093 --> 0:16:38.413 that I'd question how employable they were, otherwise they might 0:16:38.453 --> 0:16:40.253 not be in the public service. 0:16:40.933 --> 0:16:45.333 There was a bit tongue in cheek anyway, but seriously, 0:16:46.173 --> 0:16:49.013 there is no justification for employing that many people here 0:16:49.013 --> 0:16:51.413 in Wellington. I mean, you look at individual departments and 0:16:51.453 --> 0:16:53.613 you can see how much they have ballooned. My favorite 0:16:53.613 --> 0:16:57.733 example is still the Ministry of Education that started its 0:16:57.813 --> 0:17:01.093 life after the Department of Education in the early two 0:17:01.093 --> 0:17:04.453 thousands on about four hundred people, and it's gone up 0:17:04.493 --> 0:17:06.893 to about four and a half thousand. So we have 0:17:07.013 --> 0:17:10.173 more bureaucrats in that ministry that we have schools in 0:17:10.213 --> 0:17:12.653 the country. And I think you would probably find it 0:17:12.693 --> 0:17:14.813 easy to cut back a little bit there. 0:17:15.093 --> 0:17:18.173 Okay, I mentioned you took took us somewhere that I 0:17:18.213 --> 0:17:20.213 wasn't going to go for a bit. The date of 0:17:20.733 --> 0:17:24.933 thirty eight, twenty thirty eight, The date that I saw 0:17:24.973 --> 0:17:30.213 that caught my attention and the really frustrated me was 0:17:30.773 --> 0:17:33.493 twenty forty. That figgure has been mentioned in a couple 0:17:33.493 --> 0:17:38.533 of opinion pieces. Twenty forty is when we are basically 0:17:38.573 --> 0:17:44.773 looking for the country to reappear on the international scene 0:17:44.813 --> 0:17:50.693 at any at any strength or level. Of strength twenty forty. Well, 0:17:50.773 --> 0:17:54.093 you mentioned fourteen years, So fourteen or fifteen years from now, 0:17:54.413 --> 0:17:57.573 that's what we're aiming at. And I couldn't agree with 0:17:57.613 --> 0:18:00.813 you more that if we're looking that far ahead before 0:18:00.813 --> 0:18:05.133 we can expect any real improvements. Then I repeat something 0:18:05.133 --> 0:18:09.293 that somebody said to me just recently in answer to 0:18:09.293 --> 0:18:12.013 a question. I said, how bad is it? And the 0:18:12.133 --> 0:18:17.693 answer was very very, very bad or words that meant 0:18:17.733 --> 0:18:22.533 the same. I don't remember exactly the quote, but extremely 0:18:22.733 --> 0:18:24.333 bad was the state of the. 0:18:24.293 --> 0:18:28.173 Country, Yes, and I would agree with that. I also 0:18:28.253 --> 0:18:31.693 think actually twenty forty or thirty eight, as shocking as 0:18:31.693 --> 0:18:34.853 it seems, is a realistic prospect for getting things back 0:18:34.933 --> 0:18:38.893 under control, because in some of our areas of government 0:18:38.933 --> 0:18:43.053 policy or problems are so enormous that it will take 0:18:43.093 --> 0:18:46.613 a long long time to fix them. Again, talk about education. 0:18:47.253 --> 0:18:50.493 So we have an education system that is currently plagued 0:18:50.533 --> 0:18:53.973 by low attendance rates. So only forty six percent of 0:18:54.013 --> 0:18:58.253 our school students are now attending school regularly, meaning at 0:18:58.333 --> 0:19:01.253 least ninety percent of the time. We have seen our 0:19:01.293 --> 0:19:06.573 results in international studies go back over decades. So think 0:19:06.613 --> 0:19:12.533 of PISA and Timson Pearls that's going backwards. And we 0:19:12.693 --> 0:19:16.733 now also have a new generation of teachers recently revealed 0:19:16.733 --> 0:19:18.533 in a study by the ends at IR in New 0:19:18.613 --> 0:19:23.613 Zealand Institute of Economic Research, where a huge proportion of 0:19:23.653 --> 0:19:26.973 our young teachers have actually failed maths in English in 0:19:27.053 --> 0:19:31.133 their own school time. So if you want to rebuild 0:19:31.173 --> 0:19:35.333 a system with that kind of personnel, it's going to 0:19:35.373 --> 0:19:38.733 be hard because we have plenty of teachers now in 0:19:38.773 --> 0:19:40.733 our schools who have probably never seen what a good 0:19:40.733 --> 0:19:44.013 school looks like, not even in their own experience. So 0:19:44.813 --> 0:19:47.493 all of these reforms that we're doing now that my 0:19:47.613 --> 0:19:50.133 colleague Michael Johnson is working on now as chair of 0:19:50.373 --> 0:19:53.973 Erica Stanford's Ministerial Advisory Group, they are the right things 0:19:54.053 --> 0:19:57.893 to do, except you can't expect results overnight. They will 0:19:57.933 --> 0:20:01.613 take years to work their way through the system. I'm 0:20:01.653 --> 0:20:03.773 not saying it will take until twenty forty, but you 0:20:03.813 --> 0:20:06.813 can't expect an overnight improvement in our education results. That 0:20:06.933 --> 0:20:10.293 will take a long time because the system is fundamentally broken. 0:20:12.693 --> 0:20:15.173 Which part of it is fundamentally broken the teaching? 0:20:15.893 --> 0:20:18.413 Do you say which part is fundamentally broken? I would 0:20:18.493 --> 0:20:23.053 say which part isn't Because practically everything in our education 0:20:23.213 --> 0:20:26.733 system is not fit for purpose. You look at some 0:20:27.253 --> 0:20:31.333 teacher training, well, we know actually from our own research 0:20:31.373 --> 0:20:34.333 here the Initiative, that our young teachers do not get 0:20:34.333 --> 0:20:37.173 the training that would actually prepare them for standing in 0:20:37.173 --> 0:20:40.133 front of a classroom. You look at the way we're 0:20:40.173 --> 0:20:43.613 teaching literacy and numeracy, and we know again from our 0:20:43.653 --> 0:20:46.293 own research that for decades we've been going in the 0:20:46.333 --> 0:20:51.253 wrong direction on both and we now have about forty 0:20:51.333 --> 0:20:55.013 to fifty percent of school leavers leaving school functionally illiterate 0:20:55.013 --> 0:20:58.093 and enumerate. What else of the system is not working? Well, 0:20:57.973 --> 0:21:01.093 we could talk about what students do after leaving school. 0:21:01.893 --> 0:21:05.813 Our vocational education system is broken after the forced amalgamation 0:21:05.893 --> 0:21:08.013 of the politics into poking on and what it is 0:21:08.013 --> 0:21:10.493 ours that has been We could then talk about a 0:21:10.613 --> 0:21:14.013 university system, and again we hosted a symposium just a 0:21:14.013 --> 0:21:16.613 few weeks ago at the Initiative we talked about the 0:21:16.653 --> 0:21:19.773 state of university education New Zealand, and it is broken 0:21:19.813 --> 0:21:23.013 on practically every level. You talk about free speech, academic freedom, 0:21:23.053 --> 0:21:27.173 and universities. You talk about the financial financial situation of universities. 0:21:28.373 --> 0:21:31.293 It is not a pretty picture. So no matter what 0:21:31.493 --> 0:21:34.333 aspect of the education system you're looking at. It is 0:21:34.453 --> 0:21:36.733 under enormous pressure and it will take a long time 0:21:36.773 --> 0:21:37.333 to fix it. 0:21:37.453 --> 0:21:40.253 You didn't actually use the word curriculum. 0:21:40.013 --> 0:21:42.093 Well, that's probably because I forgot to mention it, because 0:21:42.093 --> 0:21:43.733 there's so many other things that are wrong. I mean, 0:21:43.773 --> 0:21:48.133 the curriculum is another field which is fundamentally broken because actually, 0:21:48.213 --> 0:21:50.413 let's face it, we don't really have a proper curriculum 0:21:50.533 --> 0:21:54.213 right now. It is a flimsy document that doesn't actually 0:21:54.213 --> 0:21:57.293 give you any proper guidance on what students are supposed 0:21:57.293 --> 0:22:00.293 to learn our school. And the flip side of the curriculum, 0:22:00.293 --> 0:22:02.733 of course, is the assessment system that also needs to 0:22:02.733 --> 0:22:05.253 be reformed, because at the moment, the assessment system is 0:22:05.293 --> 0:22:09.493 geared towards ensuring that every students enough points to get 0:22:09.493 --> 0:22:12.413 a certificate at the end, whether they learned anything before 0:22:12.533 --> 0:22:15.533 or not. I mean, all of these areas are areas 0:22:15.653 --> 0:22:19.293 of reform right now. So Erica Stanford is doing exactly 0:22:19.333 --> 0:22:23.573 the right things across the whole board of education problems. 0:22:24.373 --> 0:22:27.453 But even with the best efforts, we shouldn't expect miracles 0:22:27.453 --> 0:22:30.373 from America Stanford. I'm a huge fan of Erica Stanford's work. 0:22:30.493 --> 0:22:32.813 Don't get me wrong, and I think she's doing exactly 0:22:32.853 --> 0:22:34.613 the right things. But I think it would be unfair 0:22:34.653 --> 0:22:37.333 to measure her by successes that she would have had 0:22:37.333 --> 0:22:39.773 in a year or two, because from where we are 0:22:39.813 --> 0:22:42.213 coming from, this is going to be a very, very 0:22:42.373 --> 0:22:43.293 long process. 0:22:43.613 --> 0:22:49.173 I interviewed somebody last week in the podcast Militia Grisola 0:22:50.213 --> 0:22:53.933 from a primary school in West Sydney. I was talking 0:22:53.933 --> 0:22:57.573 with some people yesterday about it, and the comment I 0:22:57.613 --> 0:23:01.333 got was how good she was, and they were very 0:23:01.453 --> 0:23:05.773 enthusiastic about what she had to say. And then one 0:23:05.813 --> 0:23:08.813 of them said, yeah, but it's all just come and sense, 0:23:08.893 --> 0:23:14.173 isn't it. And that created another discussion about the lack 0:23:14.253 --> 0:23:17.733 of common sense. Common sense is not common anymore, and 0:23:17.853 --> 0:23:22.653 for so many of those students who become teachers, they 0:23:22.693 --> 0:23:26.213 have no idea about basics and common sense lit alone 0:23:26.213 --> 0:23:28.453 getting a decent enough of education be able to teach 0:23:28.493 --> 0:23:30.613 the curriculum whatever it might. 0:23:30.693 --> 0:23:33.773 That's right, that's right. And I listened to your interview 0:23:33.973 --> 0:23:36.973 last week and I also came back with the same 0:23:37.013 --> 0:23:40.093 impression that this is just common sense. She reminded me 0:23:40.213 --> 0:23:44.613 very much of Katherine Berbertsing, another fantastic mistress. The head 0:23:44.653 --> 0:23:48.733 of mikhaela School in London in Wembley, and for years, 0:23:48.733 --> 0:23:51.693 of course Katherine Berbertsing has been on that mission to 0:23:51.813 --> 0:23:54.973 introduce common sense back into the British education system with 0:23:55.253 --> 0:23:59.533 enormously positive results. So it's probably now the best school 0:23:59.813 --> 0:24:02.853 anywhere you can find in England, and it's based on 0:24:02.973 --> 0:24:06.373 common sense, on actually teaching the basics and teaching them well, 0:24:07.333 --> 0:24:10.373 i'll give you another exam. But we visited Ireland last 0:24:10.453 --> 0:24:12.613 year with a delegation of the New Zealand Initiative and 0:24:12.693 --> 0:24:15.133 we had a session with the Irish Education Ministry in 0:24:15.213 --> 0:24:19.533 Dublin and they talked us through their basic strategies and 0:24:19.653 --> 0:24:22.253 what they're trying to achieve. They taught us how they 0:24:22.293 --> 0:24:26.013 measure success and how they're tracking their interventions, and you know, 0:24:26.493 --> 0:24:28.293 we all sat there and thought, well, wouldn't it be 0:24:28.373 --> 0:24:30.693 nice to hear something like that from our own education 0:24:30.813 --> 0:24:34.853 ministry because there was none of this kind of modernist 0:24:34.933 --> 0:24:38.533 nonsense that you often get, and none of the languages 0:24:38.573 --> 0:24:41.573 that you wouldn't even understand because they sounds so sociological. 0:24:41.613 --> 0:24:43.893 It was just good old common sense and trying to 0:24:43.933 --> 0:24:47.453 make sure that their students get a decent education that 0:24:47.453 --> 0:24:49.853 they learn how to read and write and do maths 0:24:49.893 --> 0:24:52.373 and get a basic science education, and then tracking the 0:24:52.373 --> 0:24:55.533 progress of their schools. It was just so refreshing to 0:24:55.613 --> 0:24:58.333 hear that from a ministry because we haven't had that 0:24:58.493 --> 0:25:00.333 kind of conversation with a ministry for years. 0:25:00.693 --> 0:25:04.493 Okay, I want to stay with Militia Grizzuola just for 0:25:04.533 --> 0:25:07.733 a moment longer. There are teachers who have no idea 0:25:08.373 --> 0:25:11.453 about the way that she approaches things as a principal 0:25:11.493 --> 0:25:15.093 of a school, but she outlines the way that she 0:25:15.293 --> 0:25:18.373 trained some of those teachers that came to her school, 0:25:18.573 --> 0:25:20.933 And the best part of it all, as far as 0:25:20.973 --> 0:25:22.853 I was concerned, was right at the very end of 0:25:22.893 --> 0:25:26.053 the discussion where she said the first thing she says 0:25:26.093 --> 0:25:28.773 to a new teacher that arrives, sits them down and 0:25:28.853 --> 0:25:31.853 talks to them and says, everything you learned at university, 0:25:31.973 --> 0:25:37.893 forget it, and then retrains them. Famili, Do we not 0:25:38.133 --> 0:25:43.893 just need a handful even of principles who are capable 0:25:43.893 --> 0:25:44.893 of taking that approach. 0:25:45.653 --> 0:25:49.213 Yes, we need these principles, and principles play a massive 0:25:49.333 --> 0:25:52.853 role in our education system, but it shouldn't be up 0:25:52.893 --> 0:25:55.853 to the principles to undo the damage done by university 0:25:55.933 --> 0:25:59.813 education departments. I mean, ideally, you wouldn't want to have 0:25:59.813 --> 0:26:02.373 any damage to correct in the first place, So we 0:26:02.493 --> 0:26:05.973 should probably go back to proper teacher education as we 0:26:06.053 --> 0:26:08.573 once had it. I mean today, when you look at 0:26:09.013 --> 0:26:13.693 teacher education that happens predominantly at our universities, these teachers 0:26:13.733 --> 0:26:17.613 are getting sociology lessons basically, but they're never really taught 0:26:17.653 --> 0:26:20.053 practically what it means to stand in front of a classroom. 0:26:20.533 --> 0:26:23.293 So we produced a report at the initiative last year 0:26:23.933 --> 0:26:26.853 that was by my colleague Michael Johnston with his or 0:26:26.933 --> 0:26:29.973 researcher Stephanie Martin. And Stephanie is a teacher herself, and 0:26:30.013 --> 0:26:33.133 she writes up in that introductory chapter of the report, 0:26:33.453 --> 0:26:37.253 which you can find on our website, her experience of 0:26:37.333 --> 0:26:40.093 studying to become a teacher at the University of Auckland 0:26:40.373 --> 0:26:43.733 and then realizing how useless that all education was once 0:26:43.773 --> 0:26:46.253 she actually stood in front of first students for the 0:26:46.253 --> 0:26:49.053 first time. So we've got a problem. It shouldn't be 0:26:49.093 --> 0:26:52.533 actually left to the principles to undo the damage. Ideally 0:26:52.573 --> 0:26:55.293 we would actually provide our teachers a decent education in 0:26:55.293 --> 0:26:55.973 the first place. 0:26:56.133 --> 0:26:59.133 Yes, but you've got to start somewhere and working in 0:26:59.173 --> 0:27:03.493 reverse is probably going to get you the fastest result. Yeah. 0:27:03.533 --> 0:27:05.253 Well, but what you can also do is, of course 0:27:05.293 --> 0:27:09.253 you can establish an alternative teacher education system training system, 0:27:09.253 --> 0:27:12.413 and we have some parts of that already operating in 0:27:12.453 --> 0:27:17.133 the country. There is one training college in christ Church 0:27:17.173 --> 0:27:19.373 that does it that way in cooperation with the schools 0:27:19.373 --> 0:27:23.213 where the teacher's actually in practical experience. And from what 0:27:23.253 --> 0:27:26.373 I've heard, a number of Auckland schools are now thinking 0:27:26.413 --> 0:27:30.173 about pulling out of university teacher education by organizing their 0:27:30.213 --> 0:27:31.613 own training courses. 0:27:32.893 --> 0:27:36.333 That's the best news I've heard today. Education is something 0:27:36.413 --> 0:27:39.173 we spend so much time on and yet and yet 0:27:39.613 --> 0:27:44.373 the results of the old discussion and the nitpicking seems 0:27:44.373 --> 0:27:48.333 to have got us nowhere to date. But your confidence 0:27:48.413 --> 0:27:52.453 in the new minister, I think is probably quite valid 0:27:53.093 --> 0:27:55.733 and I'm looking forward to those results. 0:27:56.973 --> 0:28:00.533 Cars I'm optimistic, I would say, because I can see 0:28:00.533 --> 0:28:03.093 it on a daily basis here in the office. My 0:28:03.173 --> 0:28:08.373 colleague Michael Johnston chairs Erica Stanford's Minister Advisory Group, and 0:28:08.453 --> 0:28:09.773 therefore every now and then I get a bit of 0:28:09.773 --> 0:28:13.133 an insight into what's happening and the amount of reform 0:28:13.213 --> 0:28:15.773 work they're doing, and I'm hugely impressed. It's the kind 0:28:15.813 --> 0:28:18.933 of education reforms that for years we've only been talking 0:28:18.933 --> 0:28:21.653 about and now they're happening. So for the first time, 0:28:21.693 --> 0:28:24.693 really in twelve years of doing education, working at the initiative, 0:28:24.733 --> 0:28:25.733 I'm really optimistic. 0:28:26.493 --> 0:28:29.853 Let's look at some of the other aspects of the budget, 0:28:30.773 --> 0:28:34.053 I think, just briefly, because it's had so much coverage already. 0:28:34.613 --> 0:28:37.973 Tax changes. Is there anything worthwhile in the tax changes? 0:28:38.773 --> 0:28:42.493 Oh, let's talk about this in parts. I mean, I 0:28:42.573 --> 0:28:46.373 understand why the government went ahead with the tax cuts 0:28:46.413 --> 0:28:50.213 simply for political reasons. I've had this discussion with ministers 0:28:50.213 --> 0:28:54.533 and actually with the Prime Minister themselves, and I argued, actually, 0:28:54.573 --> 0:28:57.373 you probably shouldn't look at text cuts while the budget 0:28:57.453 --> 0:29:00.093 is in such a big structural deficit, because you only 0:29:00.133 --> 0:29:04.653 make your pistal consolidation job harder for yourselves. And the 0:29:04.733 --> 0:29:08.733 answer I always got from the government was, look, promises 0:29:08.853 --> 0:29:11.613 when we campaigned, we now have to deliver because otherwise 0:29:11.613 --> 0:29:15.213 we'll lose all our credibility or political credibility just half 0:29:15.213 --> 0:29:18.133 a year into the job. And I understand that political 0:29:18.173 --> 0:29:22.573 calculus to a degree. I would say though that I 0:29:22.573 --> 0:29:25.013 think most people would be understanding if you told them, Look, 0:29:25.093 --> 0:29:27.693 we just took over. We found all the physical cliffs 0:29:27.693 --> 0:29:30.853 and physical rules, and yes we promised you tax belief, 0:29:30.933 --> 0:29:33.973 but we found a situation that is much much worse 0:29:34.013 --> 0:29:36.893 and even we anticipated, and therefore we can't deliver it 0:29:36.973 --> 0:29:39.493 just yet. This will have to wait maybe until next 0:29:39.573 --> 0:29:41.933 year or the year after. I think people would have 0:29:42.013 --> 0:29:45.933 understood that. So that's the political side of things. On 0:29:45.973 --> 0:29:49.093 the economic side of things, I think it's clearer. We 0:29:49.173 --> 0:29:53.533 are running the second largest structural deficit in the developed world. 0:29:54.133 --> 0:29:57.133 There's only one country that has a higher structural deficit 0:29:57.213 --> 0:29:59.693 than us in that's the United States. There's a small 0:29:59.693 --> 0:30:02.013 difference between New Zealand and the United States because the 0:30:02.093 --> 0:30:05.293 United States can print US dollars and somehow the world 0:30:05.373 --> 0:30:08.693 things that US dollars are still useful. Therefore they get 0:30:08.733 --> 0:30:13.853 away with this fiscal perflicacy. When Easiland, the situation is different. 0:30:14.253 --> 0:30:16.693 We can't get away with structural deficits. And I should 0:30:16.693 --> 0:30:20.453 probably explain what structural deficits are. So basically, a structural 0:30:20.453 --> 0:30:22.453 deficit is a deficit. Yet you would have in a 0:30:22.493 --> 0:30:25.493 normal year, So when the economy is not particularly booming, 0:30:25.533 --> 0:30:28.413 when it's not in particular in a particular recession, but 0:30:28.533 --> 0:30:32.053 just in a normal year, whether your taxes and your 0:30:32.613 --> 0:30:35.693 spending actually end up. And on that measure, we are 0:30:35.733 --> 0:30:40.053 currently running a massive structural deficit, and that is just 0:30:40.093 --> 0:30:42.253 not sustainable because it would mean that if you do 0:30:42.333 --> 0:30:45.813 this long enough, the country will go broke. Therefore, I 0:30:45.813 --> 0:30:50.813 would have prioritized consolidating the budget, consolidating our finances and 0:30:51.253 --> 0:30:55.973 basically closing this fiscal deficit and the structural deficit before 0:30:56.093 --> 0:30:59.573 even contemplating any text cuts. So that's one thing to 0:30:59.613 --> 0:31:02.853 look out. There is another way of looking at it economically, 0:31:02.893 --> 0:31:06.413 which again perhaps makes the government's case a bit more 0:31:06.733 --> 0:31:10.093 and that is the text inaxation issue, because actually, let's 0:31:10.093 --> 0:31:12.813 face it, what we got now wasn't even a real 0:31:12.893 --> 0:31:15.773 tax cut in that sense. It was basically just restoring 0:31:16.053 --> 0:31:18.133 the tax brackets to a state where they would have 0:31:18.133 --> 0:31:21.973 been had they been adjusted to normal inflation. And that 0:31:22.173 --> 0:31:25.213 I think makes good sense in principle, and I think 0:31:25.253 --> 0:31:28.373 we should probably make this a general rule that every 0:31:28.453 --> 0:31:32.733 year the tax brackets automatically get adjusted by say, the 0:31:32.733 --> 0:31:36.733 consumer price index. And that would also make this less 0:31:36.733 --> 0:31:39.973 political because everybody would know this is happening on an 0:31:40.013 --> 0:31:43.293 annual basis, and every year we get them adjusted just 0:31:43.333 --> 0:31:45.973 in line with inflation. So I think that would make 0:31:46.013 --> 0:31:47.973 sense to actually move to such a system in the 0:31:47.973 --> 0:31:51.773 long run, well in the medium term hopefully, But right 0:31:51.853 --> 0:31:56.093 now I would have on balance come down to keeping 0:31:56.453 --> 0:31:58.813 the tax brackets just for this year as they are 0:31:58.853 --> 0:32:01.853 because of his Scoo. Situation is so dire and we 0:32:01.933 --> 0:32:05.453 probably can't afford as if tax adjustments, even they are 0:32:05.453 --> 0:32:08.253 not even amounting to much of a tax cut. 0:32:09.933 --> 0:32:13.493 Let me approach a couple of other aspects, the forecasts 0:32:13.773 --> 0:32:16.613 that we've already discussed, and as I read through them 0:32:16.773 --> 0:32:19.453 again in a couple of opinion pieces as well as 0:32:19.493 --> 0:32:23.173 I read as I read through them, I thought, this 0:32:23.213 --> 0:32:26.053 is all guesswork. The last few years have shown us 0:32:26.293 --> 0:32:32.893 on two major fronts. COVID secondly, but the irresponsibility of 0:32:32.893 --> 0:32:36.333 the administration that was in for three years before before 0:32:36.373 --> 0:32:39.893 that ever happened. We don't know what's around the corner. 0:32:40.573 --> 0:32:43.493 How do we how do we? I mean, how can 0:32:44.973 --> 0:32:49.213 how can you as a Prime minister, mister of finance, 0:32:49.653 --> 0:32:52.933 as part of the government, how could you say this 0:32:52.973 --> 0:32:55.053 is what we're going to do, This is how we're 0:32:55.053 --> 0:32:58.413 going to achieve it, and by twenty forty we should 0:32:58.413 --> 0:33:00.613 be back on track. When you have no idea what's 0:33:00.613 --> 0:33:03.653 going to come between now and then, and maybe you 0:33:03.693 --> 0:33:08.733 should be taking precautionary measures to cover for that makes. 0:33:08.573 --> 0:33:12.013 Sense, Ye, makes perfect sense. That's exactly how I feel 0:33:12.053 --> 0:33:15.893 as well. So there are many assumptions, of course in 0:33:15.933 --> 0:33:20.213 the budget, and both of them strike me as relatively optimistic. 0:33:20.373 --> 0:33:24.733 So they have inflation go down relatively quickly. They have 0:33:25.853 --> 0:33:30.173 or financing costs for government debt staying moderately as at 0:33:30.213 --> 0:33:34.173 around four and a half percent. They don't, of course 0:33:34.373 --> 0:33:36.893 model what would happen after an earthquake is an army 0:33:37.333 --> 0:33:39.893 of volcanic eruption, and yet we know that these events 0:33:40.013 --> 0:33:44.293 occur quite regularly in New Zealand. So I think there 0:33:44.333 --> 0:33:47.493 are lots of risks on the downside. On the upside, 0:33:47.573 --> 0:33:49.933 I mean, what could happen that really surprised us? I mean, 0:33:50.093 --> 0:33:53.493 I think suddenly getting a splurge of productivity, probably not. 0:33:54.213 --> 0:33:56.493 Are we suddenly seeing all the conflicts in the global 0:33:56.493 --> 0:34:01.293 economy disappear between the West and China, Russia and the others. 0:34:01.613 --> 0:34:05.733 Probably not. So I think there are way more risks 0:34:05.773 --> 0:34:09.533 actually on the downside and or modeling doesn't take that 0:34:09.573 --> 0:34:13.693 into account properly. And by the way, I also think 0:34:13.733 --> 0:34:16.653 we should always leave a bit more room for maneuver 0:34:16.813 --> 0:34:21.013 for these external shocks when they occur, because they are 0:34:21.653 --> 0:34:24.213 of course from memory. I think we spend about twenty 0:34:24.253 --> 0:34:27.853 thirty percent of GDP on the cleanup of the Canterbury earthquakes. 0:34:27.853 --> 0:34:30.853 So just imagine the Wellington Ford line goes off or 0:34:30.853 --> 0:34:33.573 the Alpine fault, and then you would look at an 0:34:33.613 --> 0:34:37.173 event of similar magnitude, if not larger. So I would 0:34:37.293 --> 0:34:41.493 ideally like to leave some buffer for such events. And 0:34:41.493 --> 0:34:43.893 that's another reason why we should actually try to keep 0:34:43.933 --> 0:34:46.533 government debt as a percentage of GDP much lower than 0:34:46.573 --> 0:34:49.773 it is in countries like the US or Europe, because 0:34:49.813 --> 0:34:52.613 they don't have these extra risks added to their economies. 0:34:52.653 --> 0:34:54.933 And that's why we I think, have to be even 0:34:54.933 --> 0:34:55.853 more cautious here. 0:34:56.493 --> 0:35:00.013 But it's rather a small spanner in the works with 0:35:00.133 --> 0:35:06.813 regard to the makeup of this country. There is growing 0:35:06.853 --> 0:35:11.133 division at the moment. Fact it's never gone away. It 0:35:11.213 --> 0:35:14.413 might calm down in better times, but it shows itself 0:35:15.133 --> 0:35:18.013 with higher profile at a time like this. This is 0:35:18.053 --> 0:35:23.413 the disagreement between races, to put it simply, and the 0:35:23.453 --> 0:35:30.133 spin offs from those if we continue on this particular path. 0:35:30.333 --> 0:35:32.613 If we had continued on the path that they put 0:35:32.653 --> 0:35:34.373 us on, or they were intending to put us on 0:35:35.253 --> 0:35:40.413 back in the previous administration, I fear the country would 0:35:40.413 --> 0:35:44.613 have been lost forever. But at the moment I'm questioning 0:35:44.653 --> 0:35:47.853 whether or not there need needs to be far more 0:35:47.933 --> 0:35:53.853 done to overcome this son, far more done on a 0:35:54.093 --> 0:35:57.813 if necessary, confrontational level, to overcome the issues. 0:36:00.173 --> 0:36:02.373 Yeah, the problem is actually that the genie is also 0:36:02.413 --> 0:36:05.253 a bottle. It's really difficult to get it back in 0:36:05.413 --> 0:36:09.933 after six years of having that as government pollus. It 0:36:10.453 --> 0:36:13.853 scares me the development were on and it has actually 0:36:13.853 --> 0:36:16.173 turned the country into a completely different country to the 0:36:16.173 --> 0:36:19.453 one that I migrated to in twenty twelve. So when 0:36:19.453 --> 0:36:22.933 I arrived here coming from Australia, I thought, actually Nsiven 0:36:23.053 --> 0:36:26.373 was fortunate to be in race relations where it was 0:36:26.413 --> 0:36:28.453 at the time, especially VIISA of the Australia. Were there 0:36:29.253 --> 0:36:32.293 many more unsolved problems, I would say, And it seemed 0:36:32.333 --> 0:36:34.533 to me, at least in contrast with Australia much more 0:36:34.573 --> 0:36:38.533 harmonious as it was in twenty twelve, where everybody got 0:36:38.613 --> 0:36:41.733 on and where the basic issues were resolved, they were 0:36:41.773 --> 0:36:45.693 of course some still lingering injustices, because you could actually 0:36:45.693 --> 0:36:48.853 look at, for example, education rates and compare them across 0:36:48.893 --> 0:36:51.893 different ethnic lines and find that Mari and Pacific Our 0:36:51.893 --> 0:36:54.853 students were on average far less successful at school than 0:36:55.493 --> 0:36:59.573 Parking Are students, and especially Asian students. But I think 0:36:59.773 --> 0:37:02.573 in order to fix these discrepancies, you would have focused 0:37:02.613 --> 0:37:06.173 on the issues at hand, namely the education system. Instead, 0:37:06.253 --> 0:37:09.253 what the government did from twenty seven onwards was to 0:37:09.253 --> 0:37:13.853 turn every such socioeconomic problem into a race issue, and 0:37:14.813 --> 0:37:17.653 I think in doing so it actually divided the country enormously, 0:37:17.933 --> 0:37:22.413 and that is really difficult to mend together again. Know 0:37:22.613 --> 0:37:25.733 that we've had a change of government, but in principle 0:37:25.773 --> 0:37:27.853 I agree with you, this country is divided. I'm just 0:37:27.933 --> 0:37:31.773 not sure whether a direct confrontational approach would help us, 0:37:31.853 --> 0:37:34.493 or whether this would actually drive the country even further apart. 0:37:35.133 --> 0:37:38.133 I wish we could just work on issues where there 0:37:38.133 --> 0:37:41.573 are discrepancies, like education, fix these issues, and I hope 0:37:41.613 --> 0:37:45.573 that by doing that we would make the overlying race 0:37:45.653 --> 0:37:48.213 issues slowly disappear. 0:37:51.093 --> 0:37:55.653 It's a nice it's a pleasant thought. I I have 0:37:55.813 --> 0:37:57.893 serious doubts if you've. 0:37:57.733 --> 0:38:00.893 Got I'm not saying that I'm confident that it will work, 0:38:00.973 --> 0:38:04.933 but I would like to see a path to resolving 0:38:04.933 --> 0:38:07.773 these issues that seize the least amount of confrontation and 0:38:07.853 --> 0:38:10.653 polarize session, because we've got enough of that already. 0:38:11.773 --> 0:38:15.333 Well, certainly I agree, which leads me on to the 0:38:15.373 --> 0:38:21.013 situation in another part of the world, Switzerland, and there 0:38:21.013 --> 0:38:26.013 has been a small campaign over a number of years 0:38:26.053 --> 0:38:29.453 to try and introduce the Swiss system to the hundred 0:38:29.533 --> 0:38:34.693 Days into New Zealand. Just before I go on, would 0:38:34.773 --> 0:38:36.893 you approve of that? Do you think that would be 0:38:36.933 --> 0:38:37.573 a good idea? 0:38:38.213 --> 0:38:41.013 Well, as you know, Laton, I'm a huge fan of Switzerland. 0:38:42.053 --> 0:38:45.453 Switzerland is one of the most fascinating countries on Earth 0:38:45.533 --> 0:38:48.613 because they are doing so many things differently, and they're 0:38:48.653 --> 0:38:52.493 doing so many things much better than us. So anything 0:38:52.533 --> 0:38:55.333 that Switzerland does I think is worth studying. And I've 0:38:55.413 --> 0:38:57.853 really always admired Switzerland and a power from that. I mean, 0:38:57.893 --> 0:39:00.413 as a German, you look at Switzerland think well, the 0:39:00.413 --> 0:39:02.533 Swiss are just like the Germans, but nobody hates them, 0:39:02.613 --> 0:39:07.573 so that's great. And when I look at Switzerland, what 0:39:07.733 --> 0:39:10.613 I particular like is the way the country runs from 0:39:10.653 --> 0:39:14.733 the bottom up. There's hardly anyone in the Swiss federal government. 0:39:15.053 --> 0:39:17.213 Do you know how many ministers they have in burn. 0:39:17.893 --> 0:39:22.253 Next to none? Seven. Yeah, that's it. 0:39:22.333 --> 0:39:25.613 And the presidency of Switzerland rotates among the ministers. And 0:39:25.613 --> 0:39:29.733 the ministers, by the way, are drawn from all political parties, 0:39:29.773 --> 0:39:31.933 and it has been like that for decades, so they've 0:39:31.973 --> 0:39:36.293 got a permanent all party coalition. The only reason why 0:39:36.333 --> 0:39:39.733 that works is because everything in the end is subject 0:39:39.813 --> 0:39:42.093 to the threat of a referendum. That's the one hundred 0:39:42.173 --> 0:39:45.733 days you're talking about. So you collect enough signatures, you 0:39:45.813 --> 0:39:48.173 take it to the people, and then the people will 0:39:48.173 --> 0:39:52.053 have the final word. And I think that's a wonderful model. 0:39:52.053 --> 0:39:54.253 But the other thing that works well about Switzerland is 0:39:54.293 --> 0:39:59.733 the decentralization. The decentralization. We're in a country the size 0:39:59.853 --> 0:40:03.853 of Canterbury with just over nine million people. They have 0:40:03.933 --> 0:40:08.813 twenty six cantons and two thousand councils, and each and 0:40:08.893 --> 0:40:13.053 each council has its own income tax system, so in effact, 0:40:13.253 --> 0:40:15.813 you have more than two thousand different income tax systems 0:40:15.853 --> 0:40:18.893 and Switzerland and our sounds crazy, of course when you 0:40:18.933 --> 0:40:20.933 talk about it here in New Zealanders typically say, oh, 0:40:20.973 --> 0:40:24.933 this must be a recipe, recipe for disaster. Actually it 0:40:25.013 --> 0:40:27.653 is not, because it works. It has actually kept taxes 0:40:27.733 --> 0:40:30.853 quite low in Switzerland. It has made sure that Swiss 0:40:30.893 --> 0:40:34.893 local government is responsive to the population and that people 0:40:34.893 --> 0:40:39.533 are actually treated like customers by their councils, which you 0:40:39.573 --> 0:40:42.693 couldn't say of council's relationships with New Zealanders. And so 0:40:42.773 --> 0:40:46.333 I think structurally Switzerland works so much better. So I 0:40:46.373 --> 0:40:49.333 think we should study this system a lot more and 0:40:49.853 --> 0:40:52.973 try to figure out what we could copy from them. 0:40:53.573 --> 0:40:56.733 I would just say one word of caution, you cannot 0:40:56.853 --> 0:41:02.493 copy Switzerland because Switzerland has grown like this over centuries literally, 0:41:02.973 --> 0:41:06.653 and there are some structural elements of the Swiss experience 0:41:06.653 --> 0:41:10.613 that you can't replicate here either. So, for example, in Switzerland, 0:41:10.933 --> 0:41:13.693 you have a society that is maybe not polarized, but 0:41:13.773 --> 0:41:18.453 definitely fragmented. So you have German speakers, you have French speakers, 0:41:18.533 --> 0:41:21.693 Italian speakers, and Romance speakers, so you've got four languages 0:41:21.693 --> 0:41:25.173 in the country. You have different religious affiliations, so you've 0:41:25.213 --> 0:41:28.573 got strong Catholic parties still in strong Protestant parts, and 0:41:28.613 --> 0:41:31.933 then you've got other who are not even Christian at all. 0:41:32.573 --> 0:41:35.013 And then of course you've got the typical political divisions 0:41:35.173 --> 0:41:38.973 left wing, right wing, centrist, green, whatever, and so you 0:41:39.053 --> 0:41:42.053 put all of these different identities together and what you 0:41:42.133 --> 0:41:44.653 have is a country that is fragmented in so many 0:41:44.693 --> 0:41:48.813 different lines. Again, sounds like a recipe for disaster, but actually, 0:41:48.853 --> 0:41:51.013 in a Swiss case, what it has done is it 0:41:51.093 --> 0:41:54.733 is ensured that things are decided locally because you could 0:41:54.733 --> 0:41:57.093 never find agreement among all of them at a central level. 0:41:57.853 --> 0:42:02.613 And that has actually created a system of political governance 0:42:03.133 --> 0:42:06.053 that has worked extremely well for Switzerland. But it's really 0:42:06.093 --> 0:42:08.733 based on these factors. When you look at New Zealand, 0:42:08.813 --> 0:42:13.253 yes we have different ethnic clients, but probably not quite 0:42:13.293 --> 0:42:16.173 to the degree that the Swiss habits as a totally 0:42:16.213 --> 0:42:19.733 fragmented society. And nevertheless, as I said, it is a 0:42:19.773 --> 0:42:21.693 system worth learning from, and. 0:42:21.653 --> 0:42:23.613 It's probably not the only one, but it's certainly a 0:42:23.693 --> 0:42:26.853 very a very good one. So while we're talking about 0:42:26.853 --> 0:42:33.813 the makeup of a country, migration, immigration is a very 0:42:33.853 --> 0:42:34.453 important thing. 0:42:34.493 --> 0:42:34.613 Now. 0:42:34.653 --> 0:42:37.053 I read something a little earlier this morning, before we 0:42:37.413 --> 0:42:41.093 before we sat down to talk. I read that the 0:42:41.213 --> 0:42:45.413 level of migration looks like it's going to be maintained 0:42:46.213 --> 0:42:49.613 for the foreseeable future. Now, I've got a couple of 0:42:49.933 --> 0:42:53.333 back questions off that one I've been asking for a while, 0:42:53.453 --> 0:42:56.013 just throwing it out, rather than asking one hundred and 0:42:56.013 --> 0:42:58.453 forty thousand people that came into this country last year, 0:42:58.933 --> 0:43:02.053 where did they come from, what qualifications did they have? 0:43:02.173 --> 0:43:06.213 What contribution to the country can they possibly make? Because 0:43:06.253 --> 0:43:10.013 I'm a believer in the fact that a country is 0:43:10.533 --> 0:43:13.853 and should have control of who comes into it, and 0:43:13.893 --> 0:43:16.733 they should be people that are worthy of it, who 0:43:16.893 --> 0:43:20.013 can contribute to the country and the rest of the population. 0:43:21.573 --> 0:43:23.373 And I'm certainly aware that there are a lot of 0:43:23.413 --> 0:43:25.813 people here who can't you say. 0:43:27.573 --> 0:43:29.893 I say that I have asked myself exactly the same 0:43:29.933 --> 0:43:32.493 question and passed it on to our colic Bryce Wilkinson 0:43:32.973 --> 0:43:34.973 a few weeks ago, and I asked Bryce to actually 0:43:35.013 --> 0:43:37.653 look into these migration statistics and tell me who's coming, 0:43:38.293 --> 0:43:40.933 because I had the same look at the statistics that 0:43:41.013 --> 0:43:43.333 you probably had, and I thought, well, that's extraordinary. We 0:43:43.373 --> 0:43:47.173 had a net loss of fifty thousand New Zealand citizens 0:43:47.173 --> 0:43:50.173 to Australia, and at the same time we had a 0:43:50.213 --> 0:43:53.293 net migration intake of one hundred and forty thousand. So, 0:43:53.333 --> 0:43:55.093 by the way, these are net figures. I mean, there 0:43:55.133 --> 0:43:57.453 are way more people arriving, but there are also people leaving. 0:43:57.453 --> 0:44:00.373 But the net intake is one hundred and forty and 0:44:00.613 --> 0:44:03.293 I wanted to know, actually, how does this work. You 0:44:03.333 --> 0:44:07.213 occasionally read stories in the newspapers where they say this 0:44:07.253 --> 0:44:10.853 is a massive net brain drain. So we're losing our 0:44:10.853 --> 0:44:14.253 best qualified people and they are taking over across the 0:44:14.333 --> 0:44:17.013 tessment to have a new career in Australia, and at 0:44:17.013 --> 0:44:20.293 the same time we're getting relatively poorly qualified migrants in. 0:44:20.853 --> 0:44:23.973 And so what we actually have as a net movement 0:44:24.013 --> 0:44:26.933 as a net brain drain. And Bryce is looking into 0:44:26.933 --> 0:44:29.053 this right now, but I haven't got the final figures 0:44:29.053 --> 0:44:31.933 from him yet, but from everything that he has told 0:44:31.973 --> 0:44:36.013 me so far, it does look, indeed like the loss 0:44:36.013 --> 0:44:38.373 of skills is there and we are not getting the 0:44:38.373 --> 0:44:42.053 same qualifications back into the country. Bryce is also looking 0:44:42.093 --> 0:44:46.453 into the source of our new migrants and memory I 0:44:46.493 --> 0:44:50.093 think in the last year the number of migrants from 0:44:50.333 --> 0:44:53.493 European countries was I think only twelve percent of the total, 0:44:54.093 --> 0:44:56.813 and the majority, the vast majority of our migrants now 0:44:57.013 --> 0:45:00.773 are originating from Asian countries, and I mean, that seems 0:45:00.813 --> 0:45:03.333 to be the experience anyway when you're looking around, especially 0:45:03.373 --> 0:45:08.133 Auckland Auguland is slowly turning into a more ethnically Asian 0:45:08.133 --> 0:45:10.573 sy team. It's not the same, of course in other 0:45:10.613 --> 0:45:12.973 parts of the country, and especially the South Island is 0:45:12.973 --> 0:45:15.173 still a bit of a different story. But there seems 0:45:15.173 --> 0:45:18.733 to be definitely a changing ethnic composition of parts of 0:45:18.733 --> 0:45:22.493 the country and as also from our early research, a 0:45:22.653 --> 0:45:25.213 change in the skill set of the population that is 0:45:25.613 --> 0:45:27.533 linked to our migration patterns. 0:45:28.093 --> 0:45:32.693 It's not the race, it's the it's the culture that 0:45:32.893 --> 0:45:37.133 I mean, I've maintained for a long time. I'm not 0:45:37.173 --> 0:45:40.613 a racist, but I am certainly a culturalist. If you 0:45:41.213 --> 0:45:44.293 if you if you put people together from alien cultures 0:45:44.933 --> 0:45:48.573 that have a history of not fitting, then taking them 0:45:48.573 --> 0:45:52.133 in is something not to be not to be encouraged. 0:45:53.653 --> 0:45:55.693 You can throw can I can I can I respond 0:45:55.693 --> 0:46:01.133 to that? Yeah, I think I'm going a long way 0:46:01.413 --> 0:46:04.653 with you on that one. In fact, I think we 0:46:04.693 --> 0:46:08.333 should probably not talk about a multicultural society. We should 0:46:08.533 --> 0:46:11.413 talk about a multi ethnic society, and that's a different thing. 0:46:12.253 --> 0:46:15.733 So I did write a short paper for the Australian 0:46:15.733 --> 0:46:19.613 Productivity Commission when I worked there arguing that actually, when 0:46:19.613 --> 0:46:23.853 you're looking at Australia, lots of Australians are claiming that 0:46:23.853 --> 0:46:27.173 Australia is a multicultural society, and I actually, no, it 0:46:27.253 --> 0:46:30.653 isn't it is a multi ethnic society because there is one, 0:46:30.813 --> 0:46:33.813 or at least at the time, there was one Australian 0:46:33.853 --> 0:46:36.213 culture where people are told, no matter where you're from, 0:46:36.733 --> 0:46:40.933 you leave all that baggage behind. You become Australian, you 0:46:40.973 --> 0:46:43.373 become one of us. You live in the suburbs, your 0:46:43.453 --> 0:46:46.093 kids will be intermarry with each other, and after two 0:46:46.213 --> 0:46:51.133 or three generations you will be basically indistinguishable from anyone 0:46:51.133 --> 0:46:53.253 else in this country because you have all kind of 0:46:53.293 --> 0:46:55.973 lived together, and you've had your kids had children together, 0:46:56.493 --> 0:46:58.533 and therefore you become Australian. And by the way, on 0:46:58.653 --> 0:47:01.213 arrival will make you sign an Australian value statement where 0:47:01.213 --> 0:47:03.973 you sign up to our basic roots. And so I 0:47:04.093 --> 0:47:07.293 thought this whole idea of Australian multiculturalism was a misnomal 0:47:07.693 --> 0:47:10.853 Becauseustralian culture, at least at the time I wrote this paper, 0:47:10.853 --> 0:47:14.213 I think around twenty nine or ten, it was defined 0:47:14.253 --> 0:47:16.373 that there was such a thing as an Australian culture, 0:47:16.813 --> 0:47:20.653 and then it doesn't matter was ethnic community you belong to. 0:47:20.733 --> 0:47:23.173 You can have your ethnic community and your ethnic identity, 0:47:23.533 --> 0:47:26.213 but the culture was clearly defined as that of a 0:47:26.253 --> 0:47:29.613 Western liberal democracy and I liked that concept. And by 0:47:29.613 --> 0:47:32.973 the way, this was how Australia at least always worked. 0:47:33.573 --> 0:47:39.093 So think back even to the times Australian settlement. I mean, 0:47:39.333 --> 0:47:43.173 Australia got migrants mainly from the United Kingdom, but people 0:47:43.173 --> 0:47:45.893 who in the United Kingdom wouldn't have got on. So 0:47:45.933 --> 0:47:49.893 you got Catholics and Protestants and Irishmen and Englishmen. And 0:47:49.933 --> 0:47:52.613 basically the only way that Australia could work at the 0:47:52.653 --> 0:47:55.173 time was to tell all of them, look, we know 0:47:55.253 --> 0:47:57.693 about your conflicts you had back home, but they belonged 0:47:57.733 --> 0:47:59.933 to where you came from, and you are not allowed 0:48:00.213 --> 0:48:04.373 to parade them around here. Your idea is to become Australian. 0:48:04.733 --> 0:48:07.813 And it's worked again. And after the war, think of 0:48:07.853 --> 0:48:11.893 the Greek migration wave into Australia. I saw statistics at 0:48:11.893 --> 0:48:16.813 the time about the prevalence of Greek orthodox as a 0:48:17.013 --> 0:48:21.733 denomination in Australia, and that basically lasted about two generations 0:48:21.733 --> 0:48:24.333 of Greek migration into Australia and then the integration, they 0:48:24.373 --> 0:48:28.413 became indistinguishable from the rest of society. So I think 0:48:28.853 --> 0:48:31.613 we should really be careful how we are calling these things. 0:48:31.693 --> 0:48:34.933 Is it multiculturalism. I think if it's really multiculturalism and 0:48:34.973 --> 0:48:37.333 you've got different cultures living side by side, it's a 0:48:37.373 --> 0:48:42.013 recipe for disaster. There is something that all people in 0:48:42.013 --> 0:48:45.613 the country should agree on, and these are the foundations 0:48:45.653 --> 0:48:48.573 of society. That we've got equal rights for men and women, 0:48:48.973 --> 0:48:51.773 that we have no problem no matter what sexual orientation 0:48:51.893 --> 0:48:54.693 you have. You can have any religion or none. This 0:48:54.813 --> 0:48:57.373 is all part of living in a free Western society. 0:48:57.413 --> 0:48:59.213 And if you can sign up to that, you're welcome. 0:48:59.573 --> 0:49:01.613 But you are not allowed to bring any other culture 0:49:01.653 --> 0:49:04.933 that is incompatible with these basic values, because that would 0:49:04.933 --> 0:49:08.133 be a recipe for disaster and for driving societies apart. 0:49:08.773 --> 0:49:10.653 So do I take it that you were agreeing with 0:49:11.133 --> 0:49:11.813 as far as I. 0:49:11.813 --> 0:49:14.573 Went, Yes, but I would be careful in how we 0:49:14.653 --> 0:49:18.333 call this. I think this is actually multicultures is a 0:49:18.333 --> 0:49:21.253 bit of misnoma. I think we should talk about multi 0:49:21.253 --> 0:49:25.573 ethnic societies, but with a clear, clearly defined national culture 0:49:25.813 --> 0:49:31.213 which is based on enlightenment, on Western civilization, on the 0:49:31.293 --> 0:49:34.013 rule of law, on property rights, and there are some 0:49:34.173 --> 0:49:36.853 things that I believe should not be subject to debate, 0:49:37.693 --> 0:49:41.573 such as such as the ones that I mentioned. These 0:49:41.613 --> 0:49:44.493 are the basic pillars on which our society rests. And 0:49:44.533 --> 0:49:46.653 then it doesn't matter the color of your skin or 0:49:46.653 --> 0:49:49.213 what you believe. And when you come into the country, 0:49:49.253 --> 0:49:51.333 you basically sign up to that. And the Australians actually 0:49:51.373 --> 0:49:54.413 literally make you sign up to these values by putting 0:49:54.533 --> 0:49:57.173 this Australian value statement to every migrant. You have to 0:49:57.173 --> 0:49:59.613 sign this to get a visa, and that I think 0:49:59.653 --> 0:50:03.133 sends a very clear signal to newcomers that yes you 0:50:03.213 --> 0:50:05.653 have come and yes you're welcome here, but there are 0:50:05.693 --> 0:50:08.013 some basic rules that we would expect you to live by. 0:50:08.333 --> 0:50:11.493 Do you think that is still the same with the 0:50:11.493 --> 0:50:14.213 same success now as it was over the periods that 0:50:14.293 --> 0:50:14.773 you mentioned. 0:50:15.733 --> 0:50:18.533 No, it has changed, and that worries me. But at 0:50:18.613 --> 0:50:21.813 least that's how it was traditionally practiced in Australia, and 0:50:21.853 --> 0:50:22.933 I believe in New Zealand too. 0:50:23.053 --> 0:50:25.213 So where did the practice go wrong? 0:50:26.213 --> 0:50:29.573 The practice goes wrong when people think, oh, there is 0:50:29.573 --> 0:50:31.973 basically an equivalence of cultures, and we can't actually say 0:50:32.013 --> 0:50:34.653 that one culture is better than the other. And maybe 0:50:34.653 --> 0:50:36.693 you can't say that one culture is better than the other, 0:50:36.733 --> 0:50:39.933 but you can definitely define what culture you live under. 0:50:40.173 --> 0:50:43.453 And I think it becomes really difficult and dangerous when 0:50:44.333 --> 0:50:46.773 that is no longer clear, when anything goes because it 0:50:46.813 --> 0:50:50.133 just leads to the segregation of society. And by the way, 0:50:50.293 --> 0:50:52.373 if you want to see an example of where that's 0:50:52.413 --> 0:50:55.653 gone wrong, just look at Europe, look at what's happening 0:50:55.693 --> 0:50:58.533 in France, look at Germany, look at parts of Britain. 0:50:58.693 --> 0:51:01.133 The segregation of society that we see in parts of 0:51:01.173 --> 0:51:04.813 Europe is something that I wouldn't want to see replicated here. 0:51:05.053 --> 0:51:07.053 And I would certainly join you on that. 0:51:07.293 --> 0:51:09.053 By the way, can I say one more thing about that? 0:51:09.693 --> 0:51:12.853 I think it is also in part it's not just 0:51:12.853 --> 0:51:15.853 the fault of the migrants in these countries, looking at 0:51:15.853 --> 0:51:19.773 the German experience that I'm quite familiar with, still, it 0:51:19.893 --> 0:51:25.053 is also a fault of German society of never having 0:51:25.253 --> 0:51:28.293 actually walken up to the fact that Germany is a 0:51:28.493 --> 0:51:32.533 country that attracts migrants. What I have in mind are 0:51:32.653 --> 0:51:35.493 the so called guest workers that started arriving in the 0:51:35.573 --> 0:51:39.933 nineteen fifties, initially from countries like Spain and Italy, and 0:51:39.973 --> 0:51:44.453 then over the years I extended to especially Turkey. So 0:51:44.893 --> 0:51:47.933 these people came in. They were called guest workers, and 0:51:48.253 --> 0:51:51.373 the idea was, as the name suggests, that there are 0:51:51.453 --> 0:51:53.733 guests in the country and after a few years they 0:51:53.733 --> 0:51:56.653 would leave and disappear and go back home to their 0:51:56.813 --> 0:51:59.933 countries where they had come from. And they didn't, and 0:51:59.973 --> 0:52:03.053 in fact they had children and their children had children. 0:52:03.093 --> 0:52:07.573 So suddenly, by the nineteen eighties nineties there was serious 0:52:07.613 --> 0:52:10.853 talk in German of guest workers of the third generation. 0:52:11.653 --> 0:52:14.053 And I think it is ludicrous. If your family has 0:52:14.093 --> 0:52:16.413 been in a country for fifty or sixty years, and 0:52:16.493 --> 0:52:20.853 if you're now the third generation of those so called 0:52:20.893 --> 0:52:23.573 guest workers, you're no longer a guess at that stage 0:52:23.573 --> 0:52:26.973 you should belong to society. But mainstream society had never 0:52:27.013 --> 0:52:30.653 signaled to them that they were supposed to be there 0:52:30.693 --> 0:52:33.853 for the long term, and therefore they were always told, well, actually, 0:52:33.973 --> 0:52:35.773 you're not really one of us, and we don't expect 0:52:35.773 --> 0:52:38.253 you to become one of us, because in the end 0:52:38.773 --> 0:52:41.613 you're guests and we expect you to leave again. And 0:52:41.653 --> 0:52:44.853 I think that was again the wrong policy to take, 0:52:44.933 --> 0:52:48.613 because you would have ideally practiced, for example, what the 0:52:48.613 --> 0:52:51.293 Australians do, where they say, okay, you have arrived now, 0:52:51.333 --> 0:52:53.973 and now we're making sure that you become Australian. In 0:52:54.013 --> 0:52:56.133 the same way, the Germans could have said, actually, you 0:52:56.133 --> 0:52:57.893 have arrived now and we're trying to make sure that 0:52:57.933 --> 0:53:01.213 you actually learned German and become part of mainstream society here. 0:53:01.573 --> 0:53:04.133 But they didn't. They always pretended and kept up this 0:53:04.213 --> 0:53:06.773 fiction that at some stage she would just disappear. And 0:53:06.813 --> 0:53:08.853 while they kept up the fiction, they allowed them to 0:53:08.893 --> 0:53:11.933 form parallel societies. So you've got whole suburbs now of 0:53:11.973 --> 0:53:15.453 German cities where they basically have their parallel infrastructure, where 0:53:15.493 --> 0:53:18.453 everything is Turkish and where you wouldn't find it a 0:53:18.453 --> 0:53:21.453 word of German spoken. What I find interesting, by the way, 0:53:21.493 --> 0:53:24.493 is when you look at this experience, you can find 0:53:24.533 --> 0:53:28.533 that the first generation was perfectly integrated, because that was 0:53:28.573 --> 0:53:32.733 a generation that worked. They find found jobs in the factories, 0:53:32.773 --> 0:53:35.253 they had German colleagues, They learned the language because they 0:53:35.253 --> 0:53:37.813 wanted to interact with their colleagues. And so the first 0:53:37.853 --> 0:53:41.973 generation of Turkish Mirgrants was by some measures better integrated 0:53:42.013 --> 0:53:46.173 than their children and grandchildren are today because mainstream society 0:53:46.213 --> 0:53:50.573 allowed them to segregate and form parallel social structures. And 0:53:50.613 --> 0:53:53.173 again it just shows you what you have to do 0:53:53.333 --> 0:53:57.573 to integrate newcomers. The best form of integration for newcomers 0:53:57.653 --> 0:54:00.853 is through the labor market because it forces people to 0:54:00.973 --> 0:54:04.293 learn the language of their colleagues. It forces them to 0:54:04.533 --> 0:54:09.573 actually pay for their own households, so they're not aligned 0:54:09.573 --> 0:54:12.293 on benefits and in that way they become part of 0:54:12.333 --> 0:54:14.853 mainstream society. Once you give up on that, and once 0:54:14.853 --> 0:54:17.973 you actually push them away out of mainstream society, you 0:54:17.973 --> 0:54:20.133 are asking for trouble down the liner. That's where many 0:54:20.173 --> 0:54:21.373 European countries are. 0:54:22.013 --> 0:54:25.733 You mentioned Switzerland, you mentioned France, and you mentioned Germany 0:54:25.773 --> 0:54:28.253 and Turkey, but you haven't mentioned the UK. 0:54:28.773 --> 0:54:31.253 Yeah, and I've lived in the UK two for four 0:54:31.293 --> 0:54:32.933 and a half years. What do you want to talk about? 0:54:33.133 --> 0:54:35.493 Well, the politics of the UK at the moment, the 0:54:35.853 --> 0:54:38.853 scenario there, what's your interpretation? 0:54:39.773 --> 0:54:42.013 I mean, the real question is actually will the Conservative 0:54:42.013 --> 0:54:44.453 Party survive. It's not a question of whether they might 0:54:44.533 --> 0:54:47.253 win the election. I think that will not happen, but 0:54:47.893 --> 0:54:51.253 it's just a question of how bad that election result 0:54:51.373 --> 0:54:54.173 will be for the Tories after fourteen years in government. 0:54:54.333 --> 0:54:57.293 Can I reimate can I rearrange that how bad it is, 0:54:57.333 --> 0:54:59.733 how bad it will be for the country, not just 0:54:59.773 --> 0:55:01.333 the story party, the country. 0:55:01.893 --> 0:55:03.893 Well, yes, I mean we can take that almost as 0:55:03.893 --> 0:55:06.133 a given that we will have a strong labor government 0:55:06.133 --> 0:55:10.093 with a strong majority in the Commons, but they might 0:55:10.133 --> 0:55:13.533 not even be any meaningful opposition left. So, especially after 0:55:13.613 --> 0:55:16.653 Nigel Farage declared that he's now entering as the new 0:55:17.213 --> 0:55:21.493 leader of Reform, he will probably take enough percentage points 0:55:21.533 --> 0:55:25.053 off the Tories to really reduce the Tories to maybe 0:55:25.133 --> 0:55:28.093 where the Canadian Conservatives were in the nineteen nineties stay 0:55:28.173 --> 0:55:31.253 I think they finished with just two MPs. It might 0:55:31.293 --> 0:55:33.573 not be that bad, but I wouldn't be surprised if 0:55:33.573 --> 0:55:35.653 in the end we just have maybe thirty or forty 0:55:35.653 --> 0:55:38.613 Conservative MPs left. Now he can't really run a proper 0:55:38.613 --> 0:55:41.453 opposition all of that, and they will be crushed by 0:55:41.493 --> 0:55:44.373 perhaps more than five minute Labor MPs. So this will 0:55:44.413 --> 0:55:46.973 be an extraordinary situation that we haven't really hadn't Britain 0:55:47.013 --> 0:55:47.773 for a long time. 0:55:48.933 --> 0:55:51.653 What would be the reaction to it? Do you think? 0:55:52.613 --> 0:55:56.773 Well? I think we will probably see the most left 0:55:56.813 --> 0:55:59.093 wing government that Britain has had in a long time. 0:55:59.653 --> 0:56:03.773 I mean Margaret Thatcher was once asked after leaving office 0:56:03.813 --> 0:56:06.933 what was her biggest achievement, and her response was Tony Blair, 0:56:07.773 --> 0:56:12.493 because she argued that she had actually forced the British 0:56:12.613 --> 0:56:15.733 Labor Party so much to the right to accept most 0:56:15.773 --> 0:56:18.773 of her basic settings of the British economy that it 0:56:18.773 --> 0:56:21.133 didn't really matter that there was a change of government 0:56:21.173 --> 0:56:24.133 in nineteen ninety seven from John Major to Tony Blair 0:56:24.253 --> 0:56:27.893 and Ny Margaret Thatcher was right. But what has happened 0:56:28.373 --> 0:56:31.013 since is, of course that the Labor Party has had 0:56:31.253 --> 0:56:34.333 a massive shift to the left, especially of course previously 0:56:34.413 --> 0:56:37.693 under Jeremy Corbyn as later, but even now with Kiir Starmer. 0:56:37.773 --> 0:56:40.093 It is a far cry from where it used to 0:56:40.133 --> 0:56:43.973 be under Tony Blair and even under Gordon Brown. So 0:56:44.053 --> 0:56:45.973 I think we are now looking at the prospect of 0:56:46.013 --> 0:56:50.693 a seriously left leaning government governing Britain over the next 0:56:50.693 --> 0:56:54.773 five years, and that will be quite a turning point 0:56:54.773 --> 0:56:55.253 for the country. 0:56:55.573 --> 0:56:59.293 Let me ask you a tourism question, given that that's 0:56:59.413 --> 0:57:03.173 the result, and give it six months to a year. 0:57:04.013 --> 0:57:07.653 Based on the experience that we've witnessed with the Mayor 0:57:07.813 --> 0:57:11.453 of London, do you think a parliament of five hundred 0:57:11.573 --> 0:57:16.853 labor labor rights with no opposition would change the country 0:57:17.293 --> 0:57:20.493 enough to say to some of us, at least Britain's 0:57:20.493 --> 0:57:21.333 off the travel list. 0:57:22.413 --> 0:57:24.493 Lloyd might have to do the opposite. And because we 0:57:24.533 --> 0:57:26.573 could see sterling collapse and then your holiday becomes a 0:57:26.573 --> 0:57:27.093 lot cheaper. 0:57:29.053 --> 0:57:33.413 Some people are so selfish, just trying to be a 0:57:33.413 --> 0:57:37.333 little bit optimistic. Though I wasn't referring to you, I 0:57:37.373 --> 0:57:40.133 was referring to the people that you referred to. No, 0:57:40.213 --> 0:57:43.893 it's and I understand that, I understand that completely. But 0:57:44.053 --> 0:57:48.133 the country itself. Look at what's happened in the United 0:57:48.213 --> 0:57:52.653 States with the non existent southern border, the amount of 0:57:52.773 --> 0:57:57.253 crime that exists all across America now from an extra 0:57:57.373 --> 0:58:00.093 ten or the last figure I heard was twelve million 0:58:00.253 --> 0:58:03.413 illegals in there just on this occasion in the last 0:58:03.413 --> 0:58:07.853 three years. The country is very unsafe. Look. I watched 0:58:07.853 --> 0:58:11.573 a video, short video that somebody took on their camera 0:58:12.253 --> 0:58:14.653 of a guy in San Francisco the middle of the 0:58:14.773 --> 0:58:18.773 day walking down what looked like a main street. There 0:58:18.773 --> 0:58:22.093 weren't a lot of people, about plenty of traffic walking 0:58:22.133 --> 0:58:25.653 down on main street. Who got jumped on by four 0:58:26.213 --> 0:58:28.773 It could have even been five I couldn't quite make 0:58:28.813 --> 0:58:32.053 it out. Gangsters who were dressed in hoodies and the 0:58:32.053 --> 0:58:36.053 whole thing who kicked the proverbial out of him and 0:58:36.173 --> 0:58:38.613 took everything he had, jumped in, jumped in their car 0:58:38.613 --> 0:58:42.293 and drove off the middle of the day. 0:58:42.533 --> 0:58:44.333 But it could have been Central Auckland. 0:58:43.973 --> 0:58:49.173 Too, My point exactly if you want, mm hmm yep. 0:58:50.133 --> 0:58:52.253 But what I was, what I was really relating to, 0:58:52.293 --> 0:58:54.133 I suppose I was using that as an example to 0:58:54.133 --> 0:58:55.493 say where London could end up. 0:58:56.493 --> 0:58:59.773 Sure, and I mean in parts of Britain you probably 0:58:59.773 --> 0:59:04.173 already have these problems. So yeah, that is a prospect 0:59:04.453 --> 0:59:08.013 and it won't get much better, or it might get 0:59:08.053 --> 0:59:10.133 a lot. Boy is actually under that Labor government. But 0:59:10.133 --> 0:59:12.213 we should probably talk a little bit about the Tories too, 0:59:12.293 --> 0:59:17.013 because they've been in power for fourteen years and I 0:59:17.053 --> 0:59:21.253 have now read I like reading comments to newspaper columns 0:59:21.293 --> 0:59:23.133 from British newspapers because you get a bit of a 0:59:23.173 --> 0:59:25.933 sense of what their readers think, and especially in the 0:59:26.013 --> 0:59:28.453 Daily Telegraph, which is one of my favorite papers. I 0:59:28.533 --> 0:59:31.773 read comments now under practically every article saying things like 0:59:32.253 --> 0:59:35.053 I'm a lifelong Tory voter and I've had it with 0:59:35.093 --> 0:59:38.693 that party and I've been voting for the Tories for 0:59:38.693 --> 0:59:41.053 forty or fifty years, but in this coming election they 0:59:41.053 --> 0:59:45.013 will not have my vote. The Tory parties fourteen years 0:59:45.013 --> 0:59:48.133 in office have been disastrous, with few exceptions. I think 0:59:48.133 --> 0:59:51.293 the one exception being Michael Gove's education reforms is probably 0:59:51.333 --> 0:59:55.653 the only positive legacy that they're leaving behind. But the 0:59:55.693 --> 0:59:59.453 rest of those fourteen years, starting with David Cameron and 0:59:59.493 --> 1:00:03.613 then continuing with Teresa May, then Boris Johnson, List Trusts 1:00:03.773 --> 1:00:07.173 Bishi Sonak, it's been a disaster for the country. Actually 1:00:07.213 --> 1:00:10.293 they did nothing. Actually their spending went up. They are 1:00:10.333 --> 1:00:14.973 spending more than Tony Blair ever did. They didn't do 1:00:15.093 --> 1:00:17.773 any of the things that they promised. They are still 1:00:17.813 --> 1:00:21.373 going on with high speed railway links to Birmingham and 1:00:21.413 --> 1:00:28.653 other places. What is the legacy of the Tory government? Yes, 1:00:28.853 --> 1:00:32.013 and what was the promise when they started? So they 1:00:32.013 --> 1:00:35.533 started with all sorts of wonderful marketing slogans under David Cameron. 1:00:35.973 --> 1:00:40.093 And I mean I worked there until two thousand and 1:00:40.093 --> 1:00:42.693 eight when Cameron was opposition leader and we were in 1:00:42.733 --> 1:00:45.613 a thing than quite closely linked to him, and even 1:00:45.653 --> 1:00:48.173 at the time I thought, well this is all a 1:00:48.173 --> 1:00:51.133 lot of marketing talk, but not much substance because they 1:00:51.133 --> 1:00:54.373 were not actually talking much policy anymore these days. They 1:00:54.413 --> 1:00:57.453 were focused on just rebuilding the image of the party. 1:00:57.493 --> 1:01:00.373 They gave it a new logo. Gone was market such 1:01:00.413 --> 1:01:02.853 as torture Freedom, and it was replaced by a left 1:01:02.933 --> 1:01:07.973 leaning tree that children could have painted. It was all 1:01:08.693 --> 1:01:10.933 it was all appearance, it was all pr it was 1:01:10.973 --> 1:01:15.933 all marketing, and I think basically that's what gutted the 1:01:16.013 --> 1:01:19.493 Tory Party and led to them spending fourteen years in 1:01:19.533 --> 1:01:22.373 government not really knowing who they are anymore. And I 1:01:22.453 --> 1:01:24.413 see that as a problem not just for the Tory 1:01:24.453 --> 1:01:27.093 Party but for many center right parties around the world, 1:01:27.573 --> 1:01:30.773 where they have actually put the slogans ahead of decent 1:01:30.813 --> 1:01:32.533 policy development. And that worries me. 1:01:33.253 --> 1:01:36.533 It should worry all of us. What should worry all 1:01:36.573 --> 1:01:41.333 of us is the decline of government in practically every 1:01:41.853 --> 1:01:47.333 Anglo country, namely one where they're booming, namely one where 1:01:47.413 --> 1:01:48.773 everything is going really well. 1:01:49.213 --> 1:01:51.093 And not just Anglo countries. I can tell you that 1:01:51.133 --> 1:01:54.333 the situation is not much better, if at all, on 1:01:54.453 --> 1:01:56.933 the continent in Europe. So I think it's a decline 1:01:56.933 --> 1:02:01.693 that we see in governance or government across developed countries 1:02:01.733 --> 1:02:05.733 around the world, and it is frightening, as absolutely frightening. 1:02:06.053 --> 1:02:08.213 I've got a couple of books. I can't see that 1:02:08.493 --> 1:02:10.213 of them at the moment, but I've got a couple 1:02:10.213 --> 1:02:12.813 of books that I've had for some time. One I 1:02:12.853 --> 1:02:17.773 remember was published in nineteen ninety seven, Why the West 1:02:18.453 --> 1:02:25.093 Leads for Now, and the other one was even more provoking. 1:02:27.493 --> 1:02:31.573 It's interesting to keep books that make predictions to see 1:02:31.773 --> 1:02:34.933 just how the authors have, how successful they've been, how 1:02:34.933 --> 1:02:36.853 good they are, and whether they're worth willing and you 1:02:36.973 --> 1:02:41.013 learn you actually learn something from the approach that authors 1:02:41.093 --> 1:02:44.413 take when you when you see a history of correct 1:02:44.453 --> 1:02:48.613 predictions or even one major one. We don't teach history 1:02:48.613 --> 1:02:50.733 in schools, and here we are back on education while 1:02:50.773 --> 1:02:55.213 I am so, let's give it a miss. RBNZ governor 1:02:55.293 --> 1:02:59.773 says eventually monetary policy will win the day end quote, 1:03:00.013 --> 1:03:04.373 beating ordinary kiwi's and blames overseas factors. On the very 1:03:04.373 --> 1:03:07.053 same day, inflation fell in the UK to two point 1:03:07.173 --> 1:03:12.053 three percent. Now that's Robert McCulloch from the University of Auckland, 1:03:12.093 --> 1:03:15.653 but there are others making similar comments. There's been a 1:03:15.653 --> 1:03:18.573 bit of a bit of a sour taste in the 1:03:18.613 --> 1:03:23.333 mouth lately from the governor of the Reserve Bank, and 1:03:23.373 --> 1:03:24.733 you are well familiar with it. 1:03:25.253 --> 1:03:28.933 You say, well, at a time when we have our 1:03:29.693 --> 1:03:34.213 tradeables inflation running at relatively law levels and un non 1:03:34.333 --> 1:03:38.213 tradable inflation still running it close to six percent, I 1:03:38.253 --> 1:03:42.333 think it would be wiser for the Reserve Bank governor 1:03:42.373 --> 1:03:45.613 to just acknowledge his own contributions, or that are the 1:03:45.653 --> 1:03:49.173 contributions of his bank that he leads towards some our 1:03:49.213 --> 1:03:52.213 inflation crisis. Because a lot of our inflation problems in 1:03:52.213 --> 1:03:55.293 New Zealand are homemade. They are still the result of 1:03:55.333 --> 1:03:58.573 the extraordinary amount of money that the Reserve Bank created 1:03:58.653 --> 1:04:03.293 during the OVID years fifty five billion dollars that flooded 1:04:03.293 --> 1:04:06.813 our markets, that drove up domestic prices, and I think 1:04:06.853 --> 1:04:09.653 that is the main story behind. On the other thing, 1:04:09.773 --> 1:04:13.853 where the Reserve Bank should probably just acknowledge some responsibilities 1:04:13.893 --> 1:04:17.013 and the enormous losses to the taxpayer that they have 1:04:17.333 --> 1:04:21.973 caused in pursuing these policies. So we are currently looking 1:04:22.013 --> 1:04:25.013 at about eleven billion dollars that the taxpayer has to 1:04:25.053 --> 1:04:28.853 spend on recapitalizing the Reserve Bank of New Zealand because 1:04:28.933 --> 1:04:32.853 for all the money printing activities, the Reserve Bank was 1:04:32.893 --> 1:04:36.533 indemnified from by the Minister of Finance at the beginning, 1:04:36.573 --> 1:04:39.773 meaning that any losses that they incurred could be passed 1:04:39.773 --> 1:04:42.213 on to the taxpayer. And that's what's happening right now. 1:04:42.813 --> 1:04:46.253 So the Reserve Bank's performance actually in these COVID years, 1:04:46.373 --> 1:04:51.013 I think deserves much closer stroordiny and I think maya 1:04:51.093 --> 1:04:54.173 kulpa from the Reserve Bank governor would be appropriate. 1:04:54.973 --> 1:04:58.413 Can I just raise with you the fact that the 1:04:58.453 --> 1:05:01.733 Reserve Bank seems to have turned itself into a forest, 1:05:01.933 --> 1:05:06.533 or at least the start of a forest, that other 1:05:06.613 --> 1:05:10.413 aspects of the banks, I should probably say the governor's 1:05:10.453 --> 1:05:15.773 approach to life questionable for a Reserve Bank governor. 1:05:16.773 --> 1:05:20.893 Yes, you're probably referring to the articles that we saw 1:05:21.613 --> 1:05:23.933 the end of last week about the conflict that we've 1:05:23.933 --> 1:05:28.573 had with the Reserve Bank here the initiative. Well, it 1:05:28.653 --> 1:05:33.333 was all an unfortunate episode, an incident that played out 1:05:33.453 --> 1:05:36.333 when our chair Roger part Which wrote a column for 1:05:36.373 --> 1:05:39.773 the New Zealand Herald in which he once again dealt 1:05:39.813 --> 1:05:44.973 with capital requirements for banks. And that's a technical disagreement 1:05:44.973 --> 1:05:46.853 that we've had with the Reserve Bank for many years. 1:05:47.533 --> 1:05:51.533 Roger wrote a column and once again asked whether the 1:05:51.573 --> 1:05:54.893 Reserve Bank's policies on prudential regulations the regulations for the 1:05:54.933 --> 1:06:01.133 banks were properly argued. And I would have thought, under 1:06:01.133 --> 1:06:03.933 normal circumstances, it was such a mild column. There was 1:06:03.933 --> 1:06:08.333 nothing polemical about it. Nothing should have followed from it. Instead, 1:06:08.533 --> 1:06:11.613 what happened, and it was revealed by Jeanne Tripsheney in 1:06:11.653 --> 1:06:16.133 the Herald. The Reserve Banks governor then brought Nima to 1:06:16.293 --> 1:06:19.213 the CEOs and chairs of our largest banks and complained 1:06:19.413 --> 1:06:22.773 about that column and basically told the banks you are 1:06:22.813 --> 1:06:25.573 members of the New Zealand Initiative and why are you 1:06:25.693 --> 1:06:29.493 supporting an organization that writes columns for the Herald like that? 1:06:30.533 --> 1:06:32.893 And he wrote a letter to the editor which was 1:06:32.973 --> 1:06:36.853 some then printed in the New Zealand Herald last Saturday, 1:06:37.973 --> 1:06:41.613 and he made the same points publicly as well, referring 1:06:41.973 --> 1:06:44.293 back to the membership of the banks of the Initiative. 1:06:44.933 --> 1:06:46.973 And when I saw all of that and read this 1:06:47.053 --> 1:06:50.053 in a herald, I was alarmed because I thought, first 1:06:50.093 --> 1:06:52.733 of all, you're the Reserve Bank governor. You should be 1:06:53.093 --> 1:06:56.253 able to live with criticism, and especially if it's not polemical. 1:06:56.293 --> 1:06:59.333 It was not personal, it was just a disagreement on 1:06:59.453 --> 1:07:02.573 a policy matter, So why are you not able to 1:07:02.613 --> 1:07:06.653 live with that level of public debate? And secondly, and 1:07:06.693 --> 1:07:10.613 perhaps was disturbing. The banks that he sent the letter 1:07:10.653 --> 1:07:12.573 to are the same banks, of course, that are being 1:07:12.613 --> 1:07:15.853 regulated by the Reserve Bank, So to send them a 1:07:15.933 --> 1:07:20.573 letter and tell them, look, we've just been criticized by 1:07:20.573 --> 1:07:23.493 the initiative. You are members of that initiative. And then 1:07:23.653 --> 1:07:25.973 between the lines, do you think it's a wise idea 1:07:26.013 --> 1:07:27.973 to be members of the initiative when they're writing articles 1:07:28.013 --> 1:07:31.613 that are so critical of us? I thought that at 1:07:32.733 --> 1:07:36.533 a sour aftertaste, a Reserve Bank governor shouldn't behave like 1:07:36.653 --> 1:07:39.453 But I mean, you have to be careful when you're 1:07:39.693 --> 1:07:42.853 regulating an industry, when you're then telling the industry what 1:07:42.933 --> 1:07:45.373 they have to do things that you are actually not 1:07:45.453 --> 1:07:48.173 responsible for. I mean, he's not regulating them for the 1:07:48.293 --> 1:07:52.333 articles that we write. And therefore I was concerned. And 1:07:52.373 --> 1:07:56.533 then on Friday last week, the Minister of Finance revealed 1:07:56.693 --> 1:07:59.453 in a press conference that I had sent her and 1:07:59.533 --> 1:08:01.573 the chair of the Reserve Bank a letter to just 1:08:01.613 --> 1:08:05.053 make these points and now we will see what happens 1:08:05.053 --> 1:08:07.133 and what follows after that. But I was not impressed 1:08:07.173 --> 1:08:09.533 by the approach taken by the Reserve Bank on that matter. 1:08:09.973 --> 1:08:12.853 There was a column headline five or six years ago 1:08:12.933 --> 1:08:16.413 in the Herald referring to the Governor of the Reserve 1:08:16.493 --> 1:08:19.613 Bank genius or zombie. Is it too early to say? 1:08:20.773 --> 1:08:24.813 I wouldn't characterize him with either of these terms. I 1:08:24.853 --> 1:08:27.133 want him to do his job and I want him 1:08:27.133 --> 1:08:29.613 to do his job in accordance with the Reserve Bank 1:08:29.653 --> 1:08:32.573 of New Zealand Act twenty twenty one and with the 1:08:32.613 --> 1:08:36.213 Reserve Bank's own Court of Conduct. It's a beautiful document, 1:08:36.253 --> 1:08:38.093 by the way. When you read the Court of Conduct, 1:08:38.253 --> 1:08:40.893 it says we treat everybody with respect, we are all 1:08:40.933 --> 1:08:47.573 for big debates, we take on board alternative viewpoints. Basically, 1:08:47.613 --> 1:08:51.813 we're open minded and we are not engaging in name calling. Roughly, 1:08:51.853 --> 1:08:54.253 that's what the Court of conducts as well. Then I 1:08:54.253 --> 1:08:56.493 would like to see the Reserve Bank behave like that, 1:08:57.533 --> 1:09:01.133 and by actually putting pressure on members of the Initiative 1:09:01.213 --> 1:09:06.133 to effectively withdraw their membership from an organization that criticizes 1:09:06.173 --> 1:09:08.453 the Reserve Bank. I don't think it complies with their 1:09:08.493 --> 1:09:12.493 own court of conduct and actually should be unacceptable in 1:09:13.053 --> 1:09:17.253 a rule of law based democracy to have a regulator 1:09:17.293 --> 1:09:17.893 behave like. 1:09:17.853 --> 1:09:23.693 That well spoken. So finally, last question, growth and productivity. 1:09:23.973 --> 1:09:26.493 If you were in a position to wave your magic 1:09:26.533 --> 1:09:30.533 wand what would what move would you make to aid 1:09:30.533 --> 1:09:32.173 and abid those two things? 1:09:32.773 --> 1:09:36.573 Even with a magic wand, it wouldn't be easy because 1:09:36.693 --> 1:09:41.213 some productivity draw are things that result from getting your 1:09:41.213 --> 1:09:44.693 whole set of policies right. And currently I think we've 1:09:44.693 --> 1:09:47.093 got a whole set of policies wrong. So it will 1:09:47.133 --> 1:09:50.853 take more than just one abracadabra until we get the 1:09:50.853 --> 1:09:54.013 economy growing again. But if I could just single out 1:09:54.013 --> 1:09:56.533 a couple of things I would like to do immediately. 1:09:57.133 --> 1:09:59.973 The first thing I would do, I would open New 1:10:00.053 --> 1:10:03.053 Zealand to international capital. We are one of the most 1:10:03.053 --> 1:10:06.053 restrictive countries when it comes to capital imports to foreign 1:10:06.173 --> 1:10:09.573 liked investment, and we are shooting our in the foot 1:10:09.893 --> 1:10:12.853 because we need that capital and we need that investment 1:10:12.973 --> 1:10:15.453 not just because we need the money, but we need 1:10:15.493 --> 1:10:18.373 to be linked into international value chains. We need to 1:10:18.413 --> 1:10:21.653 have access to these value chains in order to lift 1:10:21.653 --> 1:10:23.853 on productivity and by the way, once we've got the 1:10:23.853 --> 1:10:28.093 capital here, that will create growth, opportunities, jobs, And if 1:10:28.093 --> 1:10:29.573 you want to see an example of a country that 1:10:29.653 --> 1:10:32.773 works along those lines, look at Ireland. They became rich 1:10:32.973 --> 1:10:36.213 out of foreign direct investment, and I think we should 1:10:36.253 --> 1:10:39.333 be trying to do the same. And that means basically 1:10:39.333 --> 1:10:42.693 getting rid of Overseas Investment Office and our Overseas Investment Act. 1:10:43.253 --> 1:10:45.293 If you want to keep any of this just limited 1:10:45.333 --> 1:10:49.853 to national security concerns, but otherwise open the floodgates to capital, 1:10:49.853 --> 1:10:53.133 that's what New Zealand needs. The second thing I would do, 1:10:53.173 --> 1:10:54.973 and that links us back to the discussion we had 1:10:55.013 --> 1:11:00.533 earlier on Switzerland. I would love to abolish or counsel 1:11:00.693 --> 1:11:03.573 rights system and replace it with a local income tax. 1:11:04.773 --> 1:11:08.173 The way that would work for growth and productivity is 1:11:08.373 --> 1:11:12.293 input because currently councils will always get the same amount 1:11:12.373 --> 1:11:16.333 of tax revenue council rates revenue, because it doesn't matter 1:11:16.373 --> 1:11:20.653 whether the council performs, whether the council's economy performs, whether 1:11:20.693 --> 1:11:23.533 the businesses in the council's area are successful, you will 1:11:23.573 --> 1:11:26.453 always get the same revenue regardless. There are no incentives 1:11:26.493 --> 1:11:29.733 for the council to be good for its local economy 1:11:29.813 --> 1:11:33.253 under that system. Once you replace this with a local 1:11:33.293 --> 1:11:37.453 income tax, you get a completely definit incentive structure. Then 1:11:37.613 --> 1:11:40.733 a council would get more tax revenue if people have 1:11:40.813 --> 1:11:44.493 higher incomes, if they generate more growth, if they generate 1:11:44.533 --> 1:11:48.933 more wealth. And therefore, I think once you change the 1:11:49.013 --> 1:11:52.733 system towards a Swiss tile local income tax, you will 1:11:52.733 --> 1:11:55.573 see councils bending over backwards to make it possible for 1:11:55.693 --> 1:11:59.813 companies to grow and invest. I have some very practical 1:11:59.853 --> 1:12:03.053 examples in mind. I recently spoke to a CEO of 1:12:03.093 --> 1:12:05.733 a small company that tried to build a small factory, 1:12:06.373 --> 1:12:08.613 and they've been trying that since twenty eighteen. Cost the 1:12:08.653 --> 1:12:12.373 Council's been an absolute nightmare. So practically every step along 1:12:12.413 --> 1:12:14.813 the way, the council asks for twenty more clarifications than 1:12:14.853 --> 1:12:17.413 each time they ask for twenty clarifications, you spend an 1:12:17.493 --> 1:12:20.653 average of ten thousand dollars on each bullet point answering 1:12:20.653 --> 1:12:24.573 it with consultants. Now, imagine the council at an incentive 1:12:24.613 --> 1:12:27.493 an interest in getting this company this new factory off 1:12:27.493 --> 1:12:30.973 the ground. I think the council would ask fewer questions, 1:12:30.973 --> 1:12:33.813 they would streamline the whole process because they would have 1:12:33.813 --> 1:12:35.973 an interest in getting the factory up and running so 1:12:36.013 --> 1:12:40.373 that they could generate text revenue for the council. And 1:12:40.413 --> 1:12:41.973 I think in that way we would create a lot 1:12:42.013 --> 1:12:44.573 more growth, would probably create a lot more housing as well. 1:12:45.213 --> 1:12:48.973 And if I had this magic wand I would do 1:12:49.053 --> 1:12:52.773 these two things at once. So abolish any rules on 1:12:52.933 --> 1:12:56.653 FDI or a direct investment and changing the way that 1:12:56.693 --> 1:12:59.013 we find as councils so that they have a reason 1:12:59.093 --> 1:13:00.013 to go for growth. 1:13:00.493 --> 1:13:04.093 That would be the next mayor of Oakland, do you. 1:13:03.133 --> 1:13:06.373 No, I don't think I've got the charm The office requires. 1:13:08.653 --> 1:13:11.693 Oliver Hart, which it is always a pleasure, and this 1:13:11.733 --> 1:13:15.453 one was supremely so thank you for your time and 1:13:16.933 --> 1:13:17.453 keep your thinking. 1:13:17.493 --> 1:13:17.613 Oh. 1:13:17.653 --> 1:13:20.413 One last question, one last question. 1:13:20.973 --> 1:13:23.053 Now called lumber, right, I have the lumber, always had 1:13:23.253 --> 1:13:23.853 the last question. 1:13:24.253 --> 1:13:27.533 I've asked you this before on at least one, but 1:13:27.533 --> 1:13:30.493 I think more occasions. Would you consider leaving this country 1:13:30.533 --> 1:13:31.013 at the moment? 1:13:31.413 --> 1:13:32.853 No, because I've got its shop to them. 1:13:32.933 --> 1:13:36.253 Still, it's a good answer and I'll take it. Thanks again, 1:13:36.413 --> 1:13:38.653 thank you, and it won't be the last time. 1:13:39.013 --> 1:13:39.293 Thank you. 1:13:39.373 --> 1:13:57.933 Lateon, there are essential fat nutrients that we need in 1:13:57.973 --> 1:14:00.933 our diet as the body can't manufacture them. These are 1:14:01.053 --> 1:14:05.133 Omega three and Amiga six fatty acience. Equisin is a 1:14:05.173 --> 1:14:08.893 combination of fish oil and virgin evening primrose oil, a 1:14:08.933 --> 1:14:12.093 formula that provides an excellent source of Omega three and 1:14:12.173 --> 1:14:15.893 Omega six fatty acids in their naturally existing ratios. 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If you don't mind. 1:15:34.333 --> 1:15:37.933 Lateon, I will. Kevin says, listening to your weekly podcasts 1:15:38.293 --> 1:15:41.533 and many times re listening to them, is a pleasant 1:15:41.573 --> 1:15:45.173 diversion and thankfully reminds me the whole world hasn't transformed 1:15:45.213 --> 1:15:49.373 into absurdity. I rather suspect you have a deeper understanding 1:15:49.413 --> 1:15:51.733 of the nature of the world's state of affairs, maybe 1:15:51.773 --> 1:15:55.493 not apparent to those interviewees who miss your obvious clues 1:15:55.573 --> 1:16:00.253 and dispersed amongst the insightful questions you ask. I'm usually 1:16:00.293 --> 1:16:03.293 in a state of anticipation as you poke holes in 1:16:03.333 --> 1:16:06.693 the fabric of current reality and tease out and expose 1:16:06.733 --> 1:16:10.573 the pieces of information each guest may have to further 1:16:10.693 --> 1:16:14.733 unpick the powers that Bee's masterful plan to continually enslave 1:16:15.373 --> 1:16:19.693 mankind in a beehive mentality. For this and the information 1:16:19.853 --> 1:16:23.573 imparted by your refusal to embrace a woke or meronic 1:16:23.933 --> 1:16:26.133 dumbed down, politically correct narrative. 1:16:26.293 --> 1:16:27.013 I thank you. 1:16:27.853 --> 1:16:31.773 More recently John or Cock, Muriel Newman and Anthony Willie 1:16:31.813 --> 1:16:34.093 I have shared with many friends, but the real tour 1:16:34.213 --> 1:16:37.573 of forse without doubt was the letter from Leon Hill, 1:16:37.613 --> 1:16:41.133 the assie from Iceland. Being on the fringes of a 1:16:41.173 --> 1:16:44.693 loosely organized freedom movement of New Zealand, I was aware 1:16:44.733 --> 1:16:49.613 of the conspiracy theory pertaining to a proposed population wide 1:16:49.733 --> 1:16:53.413 digital idea which is to be implemented overseas and here. 1:16:53.453 --> 1:16:57.493 But the shock of realizing Australia just now legislated for 1:16:57.653 --> 1:17:01.573 its implementation galvanized me into sharing that letter with as 1:17:01.573 --> 1:17:05.813 many people as possible for being that watchman for encroachments 1:17:05.933 --> 1:17:08.853 on our freedom. Again, I thank you from Kevin. 1:17:08.973 --> 1:17:11.453 Kevin, very nice of you. Thank you. And there's a 1:17:11.493 --> 1:17:15.533 couple of things to comment on, specifically where he says, 1:17:15.773 --> 1:17:18.173 I rather suspect you have a deeper understanding of the 1:17:18.253 --> 1:17:22.493 nature of the world's state of affairs, maybe not apparent 1:17:22.533 --> 1:17:27.213 to those interviewees who miss your obvious clues blah blah. 1:17:27.613 --> 1:17:30.813 I've decided what the problem is the problem is that 1:17:30.853 --> 1:17:35.053 there are too many people who have no idea what 1:17:35.293 --> 1:17:39.373 really is going on because they restrict themselves to their 1:17:39.413 --> 1:17:43.453 own particular format without and I've had this discussion with 1:17:43.533 --> 1:17:45.933 so many people over over a long period of time. 1:17:46.333 --> 1:17:50.973 If you're reading material that comes via media that shuts 1:17:51.133 --> 1:17:55.133 down any objection to the narrative of the day or 1:17:55.173 --> 1:17:59.213 the moment, or the year or the lifetime, then you're 1:17:59.373 --> 1:18:02.213 going to be ignorant of what might really be going 1:18:02.253 --> 1:18:04.573 on because you can't make a judgment call. All you're 1:18:04.573 --> 1:18:08.053 doing is group thinking and being spoon fed, which is 1:18:08.053 --> 1:18:10.613 really done. And I've had a couple of those in 1:18:10.613 --> 1:18:13.453 interviews in the not too distant past. If I may 1:18:13.493 --> 1:18:17.533 say from Chester Laateon just wanted to say I listened 1:18:17.573 --> 1:18:19.693 to Uriel Newman last week and thought that she was 1:18:19.933 --> 1:18:24.053 truly brilliant. It just saddens me that she is ignored 1:18:24.093 --> 1:18:27.253 by mainstream media in this country as she delivers her 1:18:27.293 --> 1:18:30.853 message intelligently and thoughtfully. She covered the issues read the 1:18:30.853 --> 1:18:35.133 treaty and general topics around it with great clarity. When 1:18:35.133 --> 1:18:38.213 the Herald were running their radio ads about how they 1:18:38.653 --> 1:18:43.653 quote told both sides of the story those quote, I 1:18:43.813 --> 1:18:47.093 put in a complaint to the Broadcasting Standards Authority suggesting 1:18:47.133 --> 1:18:51.253 that no, they didn't it attached several of Muriel's newsletters 1:18:51.293 --> 1:18:55.133 as proof, only to be told that my complaint did 1:18:55.173 --> 1:18:58.853 not reach the threshold where they would or could take action. 1:18:59.613 --> 1:19:02.853 Spare me. You're up against it, aren't. 1:19:02.573 --> 1:19:06.173 You, Leake Jen says. Just a month ago, Channel nine 1:19:06.173 --> 1:19:11.173 Australia reported that Minisha Grizoo had been dubbed Australia's strictest 1:19:11.373 --> 1:19:14.773 Principle and the success of the Marsden Road Public School 1:19:14.813 --> 1:19:18.533 was mostly due to her strict implementation of her behavior 1:19:18.613 --> 1:19:23.693 curriculum in her school. Menisha explains, we are teaching children 1:19:23.733 --> 1:19:26.973 how to address an adult, how to enter the classroom 1:19:27.053 --> 1:19:30.173 and correctly look after your books when you teach. This 1:19:30.293 --> 1:19:32.893 is a lesson from when the child is five. They 1:19:32.973 --> 1:19:35.013 don't see it as a discipline by the time they 1:19:35.013 --> 1:19:37.293 are twelve years old, because it is something that is 1:19:37.493 --> 1:19:40.333 ingrained in them right from the time they enter the school. 1:19:41.133 --> 1:19:45.213 The article detailed four pillars of the Marsden Way. The 1:19:45.253 --> 1:19:50.213 first pillar is the standardized core syllabus which all teachers follow. 1:19:50.613 --> 1:19:54.133 The second pillar is the systematic way in which all 1:19:54.173 --> 1:19:58.453 teachers are to teach. The third pillar is the structured 1:19:58.573 --> 1:20:02.693 system by which all students are assessed and the fourth 1:20:02.693 --> 1:20:07.253 pillar is the consistent drumming of good civics and citizenship 1:20:07.413 --> 1:20:11.853 into all students. These four pillars show that Manisha Grizzuola's 1:20:11.893 --> 1:20:15.933 success is due to the clarity and uniformity of expectations 1:20:16.413 --> 1:20:20.893 she has set for all teachers, students and parents. I 1:20:20.933 --> 1:20:22.733 loved it when she said in your podcast that we 1:20:22.813 --> 1:20:25.733 need to train and discipline kids while they are young 1:20:25.853 --> 1:20:31.813 because quote that little defiance becomes swearing tomorrow. How true. 1:20:32.013 --> 1:20:36.333 Just recall those disrespectful New Zealand students brazenly swearing at 1:20:36.413 --> 1:20:40.293 David Seymour in public. We need more Miniesia Grizzolas, not 1:20:40.653 --> 1:20:43.173 just in Australia, but in New Zealand too. 1:20:44.813 --> 1:20:50.813 Excellent, Paul writes, thanks for discussing digital ideas. Sadly it's 1:20:50.813 --> 1:20:54.973 something we will likely have to contend with due to 1:20:55.133 --> 1:21:00.653 public apathy and low IQ or conniving globalist politicians combination 1:21:00.733 --> 1:21:03.573 of all. I'd say New Zealand, a small country at 1:21:03.613 --> 1:21:06.613 the bottom of the world, needs to diversify what it 1:21:06.693 --> 1:21:09.733 does to pay the bills. Too often we have followed 1:21:09.733 --> 1:21:13.693 along and copied what larger nations have done, even after 1:21:13.773 --> 1:21:17.173 it had failed. Offshore gives an example of the firearms Register. 1:21:17.413 --> 1:21:19.453 We don't have to do this, It's not in our 1:21:19.453 --> 1:21:23.253 best interest. Look how we copied the deregulated power market 1:21:23.693 --> 1:21:28.573 and now we have expensive power and limited generation. When 1:21:28.653 --> 1:21:33.093 the Ministry of Electricity was closed, it was planning on 1:21:33.173 --> 1:21:37.973 building a nuclear reactor. We need to work smarter, not harder. 1:21:38.813 --> 1:21:41.693 We could be one of the countries offering the electronic 1:21:41.773 --> 1:21:46.733 id haven for poor souls stuck in socialist hellholes around 1:21:46.733 --> 1:21:50.373 the platter. We could be the New Switzerland of the 1:21:50.413 --> 1:21:54.533 South Pacific and the lifeboat of personal freedom. If only 1:21:55.173 --> 1:22:02.053 cheers from Paul Paul, very good suggestions, good comments the 1:22:02.093 --> 1:22:05.653 New Switzerland. While we've bandied that one around for some time, 1:22:06.293 --> 1:22:09.693 going all the way back to the eighties and the 1:22:09.813 --> 1:22:13.533 changes wrought by Roger Douglas Attel. But the commentary we 1:22:13.693 --> 1:22:17.293 just enjoyed with Oliver Hartwich, I think has made a 1:22:17.333 --> 1:22:20.733 contribution to the discussion. There just isn't enough of it. 1:22:21.533 --> 1:22:25.253 Laken Colin says the last government in New Zealand, using 1:22:25.453 --> 1:22:30.053 identity politics and guidance from the UN has left us 1:22:30.093 --> 1:22:34.293 with a lot of people feeling a sense of victimization. Therefore, 1:22:34.333 --> 1:22:37.173 some are resorting to a sense of entitlement, and others 1:22:37.213 --> 1:22:39.853 are sick of it all and are leaving the country. 1:22:40.333 --> 1:22:43.813 We even have one political party wanting to legitimize something 1:22:43.893 --> 1:22:46.533 like a Part eight because of their sense of entitlement. 1:22:47.253 --> 1:22:49.573 One hopes that Mary King can use his king e 1:22:49.693 --> 1:22:53.773 Tunga to steer a better path. Otherwise we are going backwards. 1:22:54.413 --> 1:22:58.253 People should realize the monetary and social damage needs some 1:22:58.373 --> 1:23:02.693 time to be corrected. In the last podcast, Minisha Grizzuola 1:23:02.893 --> 1:23:05.173 optimized the way of thinking we need to get back 1:23:05.213 --> 1:23:08.253 to where people have a sense of decency and want 1:23:08.533 --> 1:23:09.933 to contribute to society. 1:23:10.013 --> 1:23:13.693 That's from Colin, Colin, thank you. From Chris, I have 1:23:13.733 --> 1:23:15.533 a feeling. I read this last week. I just have 1:23:15.653 --> 1:23:18.013 a feeling, but I woult to include it anyway because 1:23:18.093 --> 1:23:22.413 worthy of a second reading. It comes from Chris. It 1:23:22.453 --> 1:23:25.693 comes as no surprise that primary teachers are failing maths 1:23:25.733 --> 1:23:30.773 and science. This is because both these subjects explore reality 1:23:30.853 --> 1:23:35.613 and facts, and changing the answer doesn't alter truth, but 1:23:35.733 --> 1:23:39.253 only makes the answer wrong. The reason for teachers failing 1:23:39.293 --> 1:23:43.453 subjects based on truth and reason is candidates who are 1:23:43.813 --> 1:23:48.773 strong in these areas will self select out of teacher training. 1:23:49.573 --> 1:23:52.653 The problem is not the teaching of math and science, 1:23:53.053 --> 1:23:56.013 but the type of system that favors candidates with flexible 1:23:56.053 --> 1:24:00.693 ideas on how the world works. If in a teacher 1:24:00.733 --> 1:24:04.493 training and school system that tells you what to think 1:24:05.093 --> 1:24:08.813 and prohibits reason discussion, the situation will not imp until 1:24:08.933 --> 1:24:11.933 candidates who value a fact based approach to life are 1:24:12.013 --> 1:24:15.253 welcome to bag in. For the record, I'm married to 1:24:15.293 --> 1:24:18.653 a school teacher who understands the system and the politics 1:24:18.773 --> 1:24:21.893 of keeping your job, and then there's a ps at 1:24:21.893 --> 1:24:24.733 the bottom. I homeschool our kids and the biggest champion 1:24:24.773 --> 1:24:28.493 of this continuing is my school teacher's. 1:24:28.133 --> 1:24:31.893 Spouse, Layton George says. This week we were treated to 1:24:31.933 --> 1:24:37.213 a wonderful example of apology, acknowledgment and gracious acceptance, where 1:24:37.253 --> 1:24:40.013 the mutual act of goodwill to parties agreed to a 1:24:40.053 --> 1:24:43.613 settlement which goes some way to address historical wrongs and 1:24:43.693 --> 1:24:46.653 allow both sides to move forward and look to the future. 1:24:47.213 --> 1:24:51.053 The mood in Parliament was profound. Unfortunately, there was a 1:24:51.093 --> 1:24:54.413 misunderstanding around the protocols of both parties. At the end 1:24:54.453 --> 1:24:59.693 of proceedings, Predictably, Mari members of the opposition seized upon 1:24:59.733 --> 1:25:03.653 the opportunity to make political capital of the oversight. As 1:25:03.653 --> 1:25:08.253 a result, the positive mood became tainted by unseemly political posture. 1:25:09.253 --> 1:25:12.693 The budget was presented the following day. The Marie Party 1:25:12.813 --> 1:25:16.213 was present only for the time required for their speech. 1:25:16.293 --> 1:25:20.453 In reply, their co leader's address was full of acrimony 1:25:20.573 --> 1:25:25.693 and vitriol, with demands for separate governance and large portions 1:25:25.733 --> 1:25:29.853 of taxpayer funds. The contrast with the previous day could 1:25:29.853 --> 1:25:32.453 not have been more stark. From a day of respect 1:25:32.573 --> 1:25:35.493 and forgiveness to one of rancor and threats of revolt. 1:25:36.493 --> 1:25:39.973 Questions arise on whether some of the Marie political leadership 1:25:40.013 --> 1:25:44.173 is serving the best interests of their constituents or simply 1:25:44.213 --> 1:25:48.253 preferring self serving histrionics. That's from George. 1:25:48.693 --> 1:25:53.533 George, appreciate it now, Peter Wrights. Firstly, I send my 1:25:53.613 --> 1:25:59.093 condolences over Carolyn's mother's death. I don't really know what 1:25:59.173 --> 1:26:01.693 else to say other than it hurt like hell when 1:26:01.733 --> 1:26:04.493 my mum died, so I can only presume that Caroline 1:26:04.533 --> 1:26:07.693 is hurting too very much. I have to say I 1:26:07.733 --> 1:26:10.013 hope that she theres plenty of support around her at 1:26:10.013 --> 1:26:14.373 this time. She did have plenty and still does. Secondly, 1:26:14.813 --> 1:26:18.213 how refreshing it was to hear your interview with Miniitia Gazula. 1:26:18.853 --> 1:26:22.133 I found her approach to be forthright, clear, honest and 1:26:22.173 --> 1:26:25.613 no nonsense, all qualities which I think any leader must possess. 1:26:26.053 --> 1:26:29.133 While she didn't come out and use the it's my 1:26:29.213 --> 1:26:32.533 way of the highway cliche, that is what her actions 1:26:32.573 --> 1:26:36.053 amounted to, and I can only presume that her teachers 1:26:36.293 --> 1:26:40.173 must at least have appreciated her direct communication, regardless of 1:26:40.173 --> 1:26:42.613 whether they liked it or not. I only wish that 1:26:42.693 --> 1:26:45.813 the last Labour led government had behaved more like this. 1:26:46.893 --> 1:26:50.693 It is all very well being inclusive, but when you're 1:26:50.733 --> 1:26:54.173 running a country, I think that clear, direct and unambiguous 1:26:54.253 --> 1:26:57.613 language is needed, and lord knows there was precious little 1:26:57.613 --> 1:27:01.373 of that during the adern Hipkins years. Was it only years, 1:27:01.613 --> 1:27:05.853 not like centuries? From the actions of the current coalition, 1:27:06.013 --> 1:27:08.093 it seems that they are at least being far more 1:27:08.333 --> 1:27:11.893 directed an upfront with their language, and long may it continue. 1:27:12.373 --> 1:27:15.533 I was going to suggest that we your podcast listeners, 1:27:16.173 --> 1:27:18.533 passed the hat around and raise money to send Erica 1:27:18.613 --> 1:27:23.213 Stanford to Minesia Gazoula's school for some lessons of her 1:27:23.253 --> 1:27:26.813 own Stanford's that is, but then it occurred to me 1:27:26.893 --> 1:27:30.133 that I am already a taxpayer of which Erica Stanford 1:27:30.173 --> 1:27:33.453 is a recipient. Therefore, as I am directly paying her 1:27:33.493 --> 1:27:36.893 wages as her employer, I direct her to I direct 1:27:36.893 --> 1:27:40.733 her to make this trip. She could learn a lot. Well. 1:27:41.013 --> 1:27:43.253 I wonder if you changed your mind or modified your 1:27:43.293 --> 1:27:47.053 thoughts a little bit after the discussion with Oliver because 1:27:47.093 --> 1:27:50.493 he was singing her praises some highly in whiting, was 1:27:50.533 --> 1:27:54.533 he not, missus producer? Your mother was a wonderful person, 1:27:55.653 --> 1:28:00.533 an even greater woman actually, and she was somebody that 1:28:01.253 --> 1:28:05.053 everybody I know, she was somebody that they all loved, 1:28:05.653 --> 1:28:08.333 or if they didn't know well enough, they thought admirably 1:28:08.613 --> 1:28:11.933 of her. Very intelligent woman. And you've been telling me 1:28:12.013 --> 1:28:12.853 that for years. 1:28:13.293 --> 1:28:15.693 Well, I'm so proud of my mum. She died at 1:28:15.733 --> 1:28:20.693 the age of ninety two. And you know, you kind 1:28:20.693 --> 1:28:23.653 of think that once somebody gets to that great old age, 1:28:23.693 --> 1:28:26.573 it becomes easier because you know that they have had 1:28:26.613 --> 1:28:30.573 a wonderful breadth of life. But it doesn't get easier 1:28:30.613 --> 1:28:34.453 at all. She was highly intelligent. She was one of 1:28:34.493 --> 1:28:38.893 those first women at university. She went to university in 1:28:38.933 --> 1:28:43.973 London and then to the Sorbonne, Paris. Apparently she just 1:28:44.693 --> 1:28:47.893 narrowly managed to not get into Oxford or Cambridge, and 1:28:48.733 --> 1:28:54.253 in the would have been fifties, No forties, wouldn't it 1:28:54.373 --> 1:28:57.093 forties and fifties, That would have been quite the achievement. 1:28:57.933 --> 1:29:00.973 She was by far the most intelligent one in my family, 1:29:01.653 --> 1:29:04.173 and right up until the day she died, she was 1:29:04.213 --> 1:29:06.093 doing crosswords. 1:29:05.373 --> 1:29:08.053 And blakes gravel. 1:29:08.413 --> 1:29:13.253 Her breadth of the English language was ridiculous. I'm going 1:29:13.293 --> 1:29:16.813 to miss her so terribly, but I am so thankful 1:29:17.013 --> 1:29:20.853 to have my family around me. And it happens to 1:29:20.933 --> 1:29:23.733 us all, does it not? And thank you Layton. 1:29:25.013 --> 1:29:29.173 Unfortunately does happen to us all. And she was a wonderful, 1:29:29.173 --> 1:29:32.413 wonderful woman. I loved it dearly. Thank you, thank you, 1:29:33.093 --> 1:29:35.413 and we shall see you next week, Yes you will. 1:29:51.493 --> 1:29:55.893 I made mentioned earlier of the Lost Generation, written by 1:29:56.093 --> 1:29:59.573 a psychologist who forwarded it to me in two thousand 1:29:59.573 --> 1:30:02.933 and nine, written and read on news talks at me 1:30:03.173 --> 1:30:06.893 in two thousand and nine. Back then, there was some 1:30:07.253 --> 1:30:11.253 lots of issues, lots of trouble with kids, young kids, 1:30:11.853 --> 1:30:15.253 undisciplined kids, et cetera. It is only worse today because 1:30:15.293 --> 1:30:19.013 it hasn't been addressed appropriately. So the proof is in 1:30:19.053 --> 1:30:22.613 the interim period from two thousand and nine to now 1:30:23.213 --> 1:30:26.573 as to what should have been done and what could 1:30:26.573 --> 1:30:31.173 have been done but wasn't. And this is what she wrote, 1:30:32.013 --> 1:30:36.173 the last generation lost in the underbelly of a dysfunctional 1:30:36.413 --> 1:30:40.893 fatherless society. The saddest aspect of recent events, particularly amongst 1:30:41.013 --> 1:30:44.253 young men, is that it's unlikely to stop in the 1:30:44.293 --> 1:30:48.693 near future. Why because no one or no organization or 1:30:48.773 --> 1:30:51.933 social agency or government department is doing anything to address 1:30:51.973 --> 1:30:56.293 the deepening chaos. It is a multi layered problem, not 1:30:56.373 --> 1:30:59.333 just the domain of responsibility of one group of people, 1:30:59.733 --> 1:31:03.093 but that of a collective of people, organizations, and yes, 1:31:03.813 --> 1:31:09.853 especially government departments. The problem pheps Almost half of the 1:31:10.013 --> 1:31:13.693 Y generation, that is, those born after nineteen eighty were 1:31:13.773 --> 1:31:17.693 raised in a single parent family, mainly mothers. The absent 1:31:17.813 --> 1:31:22.773 father syndrome is now epidemic, and the result more destructive 1:31:22.853 --> 1:31:25.933 than could ever have been imagined. Keep in mind this 1:31:25.973 --> 1:31:29.013 is two thousand and nine. Now it's worse. A generation 1:31:29.133 --> 1:31:32.173 full of extremely angry young men has been the result. 1:31:32.613 --> 1:31:35.893 Then in bracket she puts, there are also many very 1:31:35.973 --> 1:31:40.333 angry adolescent girls, with few of these adolescents having a 1:31:40.373 --> 1:31:44.293 positive male role model. The outcome will soon border on 1:31:44.533 --> 1:31:48.493 anarchy by this displaced group, and they don't know how 1:31:48.533 --> 1:31:53.013 to behave or what acceptable behavior is because it's never 1:31:53.053 --> 1:31:55.973 been role modeled or taught to them in their formative years. 1:31:56.653 --> 1:31:59.373 Mothers can only do so much and nothing at all 1:31:59.453 --> 1:32:02.853 if they suffer from any addictions or dependence on alcohol 1:32:02.933 --> 1:32:06.573 or drugs. Who has any teeth to stop them doing 1:32:06.693 --> 1:32:11.893 exactly what they like? Not parents, not the police, not teachers. 1:32:12.733 --> 1:32:18.493 They despise and defy authority, why because they can. Years 1:32:18.533 --> 1:32:21.733 of PC crap has brought about a breed of uncivilized 1:32:21.733 --> 1:32:24.853 little monsters, some of whom terrorize their parents on a 1:32:24.893 --> 1:32:29.773 regular basis. Kids from age ten and up are inflicting 1:32:29.973 --> 1:32:34.093 untold pain and agony on their parents, from diabolical behavior 1:32:34.173 --> 1:32:38.933 to physical assault. Some parents feel helpless and fearful. Does 1:32:39.013 --> 1:32:43.693 this necessarily point to bad parenting? In some cases? It does, 1:32:44.093 --> 1:32:48.973 In others, it simply points to excessive indulgence and no boundaries. 1:32:49.893 --> 1:32:53.533 The despair that afflicts these kids and the perceived futility 1:32:53.573 --> 1:32:57.213 of their lives, coupled with anger and low self esteem, 1:32:57.693 --> 1:33:00.933 is what drives some of them to drugs and suicide. 1:33:00.973 --> 1:33:04.653 Some never had a chance. Some have had plenty of 1:33:04.733 --> 1:33:08.173 chances and not had the common sense to grab them. 1:33:08.493 --> 1:33:12.933 So possible solutions. All primary schools must have at least 1:33:13.213 --> 1:33:17.653 fifty percent male teachers who are paid a decent professional salary. 1:33:18.373 --> 1:33:23.333 Scrap NCEEA and bring back sc A and O levels 1:33:23.773 --> 1:33:28.453 as in the UK reintroduce a realistic minimum entrance level 1:33:28.493 --> 1:33:33.053 to any tertiary institution and not a free for all. 1:33:33.293 --> 1:33:35.053 I'm biding my tongue because I want to add to 1:33:35.093 --> 1:33:38.333 all this, but I don't need to. Competition and genuine 1:33:38.373 --> 1:33:42.613 achievement made a goal and not something to be modest about, 1:33:42.813 --> 1:33:46.973 but recognized and praised. Police and teachers to be given 1:33:47.053 --> 1:33:52.533 more power, reasonable force included in controlling defiant adolescence. This 1:33:52.693 --> 1:33:55.773 is the only way to restore any respect for authority. 1:33:56.053 --> 1:34:00.613 Political correctness must be dispatched immediately to the scrap heap 1:34:00.653 --> 1:34:03.213 where it belongs with all the other garbage in the world. 1:34:04.013 --> 1:34:08.133 A bostal system for the encouragible young men under at 1:34:08.933 --> 1:34:13.573 where they're supported, educated and rehabilitated back into society and 1:34:13.693 --> 1:34:17.413 not in training for a life of crime. Much tougher 1:34:17.453 --> 1:34:20.733 penalties for the eighteen plus group, particularly for crimes of 1:34:20.933 --> 1:34:24.453 violence and drug dealing. The minimum age for driving raised 1:34:24.493 --> 1:34:29.213 to eighteen and only for four cylinder cars, and directing 1:34:29.293 --> 1:34:33.293 age raise back to twenty. No doll or benefits other 1:34:33.373 --> 1:34:38.533 than sickness or invalids for anyone under twenty. They then 1:34:38.613 --> 1:34:44.053 become their parents' responsibility. All of these changes require cooperation 1:34:44.213 --> 1:34:48.213 from many government departments and social agencies, more so in 1:34:48.253 --> 1:34:53.093 the areas of education and justice. Revising legislation should clearly 1:34:53.133 --> 1:34:56.293 be no hardship for the current government two thousand and nine. 1:34:57.253 --> 1:34:59.653 Who is going to be first to put their hands 1:34:59.733 --> 1:35:04.293 up badger your MP relentlessly if nothing is done to 1:35:04.333 --> 1:35:09.653 address the worsening problem of suicide street violence, and nothing 1:35:09.693 --> 1:35:13.973 will change, and dozens more young people will die needlessly 1:35:14.133 --> 1:35:18.053 and tragically. No one is safe. You too, or a 1:35:18.093 --> 1:35:23.573 family member can become a statistic or victim. So again, 1:35:23.653 --> 1:35:27.373 I say this was written in two thousand and nine. 1:35:27.653 --> 1:35:30.973 I read it on radio, but it didn't go any 1:35:31.013 --> 1:35:35.693 further than that. It's a damn fine piece. It's short, 1:35:36.133 --> 1:35:40.293 it's sharp, it's honest, and it's truthful. And here we are, 1:35:40.613 --> 1:35:43.733 fifteen years down the track. And as the author says, 1:35:44.093 --> 1:35:47.613 if nothing's done, it'll only get worse, much worse, and 1:35:47.693 --> 1:35:51.013 so it has. Back in two thousand and nine, they 1:35:51.013 --> 1:35:52.973 didn't have ram raiders, they didn't have a lot of 1:35:53.013 --> 1:35:57.173 other things. Now they do and there's more coming. Now. 1:35:57.213 --> 1:36:02.013 You tell me who is responsible, My suggestion is it's 1:36:02.053 --> 1:36:04.933 the authorities, the people who should have been leading, should 1:36:04.933 --> 1:36:10.733 have been introducing all of the above and didn't. Why 1:36:11.573 --> 1:36:15.213 because we have been putting up with a range of 1:36:15.213 --> 1:36:20.253 politicians who in some areas in particular, are gutless or 1:36:20.293 --> 1:36:22.893 haven't got a clue, take your choice, and the last 1:36:22.933 --> 1:36:25.333 six years is only promoted it much further, of course, 1:36:25.733 --> 1:36:29.653 because when you are a sop to this age group, 1:36:30.933 --> 1:36:34.333 you'll pay the price. And we all are still have 1:36:34.453 --> 1:36:38.693 I overstated that the psychologist overstate in neither cases the 1:36:38.773 --> 1:36:43.533 answer yes. So that will take us out for podcasts 1:36:43.533 --> 1:36:46.173 two forty two. If you would like to write to us, 1:36:46.773 --> 1:36:49.653 love getting email latent at news Talks AV dot co 1:36:49.773 --> 1:36:53.093 dot nz or Carolyn Newstalks AV dot co dot nz. 1:36:53.693 --> 1:36:58.293 We'll return with two forty three very shortly. Until then, 1:36:58.413 --> 1:37:01.773 as always, thank you for listening and we'll talk soon. 1:37:09.573 --> 1:37:13.293 Thank you for more from News Talk set b listen 1:37:13.373 --> 1:37:16.333 live on air or online and keep our shows with 1:37:16.413 --> 1:37:19.573 you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio,