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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news Talks at B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the US Now the

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Speaker 1: Leyton Smith Podcast powered by News Talks it B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Podcasts two hundred and forty two. For June five,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. Oliver Hardrich, Executive Director of the New

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Speaker 2: Zealand Institute, on the twenty twenty four budget, the good

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Speaker 2: and the disappointing. We have some basics and expand discussion

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Speaker 2: to other realms such as Switzerland, the UK election and

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Speaker 2: the future of the Tory Party, New Zealand, economic growth

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Speaker 2: and productivity and will it really take fifteen years until

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Speaker 2: twenty forty for the economy to be righted? And then

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Speaker 2: from seemingly out of nowhere, we found ourselves talking about

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Speaker 2: what is known as the delectable lives multiculturalism, and that's

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Speaker 2: a very interesting little segment. Then at the back end

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Speaker 2: of two forty two, we look at the lost generation,

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Speaker 2: lost in the underbelly of a dysfunctional, fatherless society. A

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Speaker 2: psychologist reports from two thousand and nine, when things were

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Speaker 2: bad and with considerable foresight, predicts what will take place

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Speaker 2: if nothing's done about it, and today we live with

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Speaker 2: the consequences of inaction. Don't miss it. But first a

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Speaker 2: quick word on something that I know that you're curious about,

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Speaker 2: the next US president. The jury verdict in the Trump

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Speaker 2: case came out the day after last week's podcast. That

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Speaker 2: was frustrating, But there has been and there will be

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Speaker 2: so much written and said on the case. It requires

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Speaker 2: what you might call a record setting length podcast on

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Speaker 2: my part in order to address it. But here is

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Speaker 2: my brief take. The case will be studied in law

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Speaker 2: classes forever. It will in the end go down as

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Speaker 2: the most corrupt court room in American history, with the

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Speaker 2: judge and the prosecutor setting new lows, and I mean

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Speaker 2: really new lows in legal ethics. But I want to

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Speaker 2: quote you a little bit of a little bit of

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Speaker 2: detail there was. As we've heard since that decision was announced,

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Speaker 2: we've heard how much money the Trump campaign has raised.

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Speaker 2: But it doesn't stop there. Trump campaign says it raised

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Speaker 2: fifty three million within a day of his New York verdict.

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Speaker 2: The ultra wealthy Republican donors are rallying behind the former

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Speaker 2: US President Donald Trump following his historical trial and criminal conviction.

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Speaker 2: But there is much more. There was an announcement made

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Speaker 2: on my phone as I as I was working this morning,

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Speaker 2: and I'll get to that in a second, because it

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Speaker 2: follows on from this. Among the billionaires who have been

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Speaker 2: turning and supporting Trump are Silicon Valley investor David Sachs,

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Speaker 2: who posted on X that there is now only one

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Speaker 2: issue in this election, whether the American people will stand

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Speaker 2: for the USA becoming a banana republic. And he's right

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Speaker 2: on target, over and above what matters about Trump, That's

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Speaker 2: the most important thing. On June sixth, mister Sachs and

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Speaker 2: fellow investor Cheamus I don't know how to pronounce his

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Speaker 2: second name, are planning to host a fundraiser for Trump

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Speaker 2: in San Francisco. Attendees are reportedly being asked to contribute

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Speaker 2: as much as three hundred thousand dollars each. Now, while

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Speaker 2: I was while I was working, my phone came up

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Speaker 2: with an X release that fundraiser had sold out not

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Speaker 2: just for three hundred thousand an individual, but for five

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Speaker 2: hundred thousand four a couple, and they expect during the

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Speaker 2: course of the function to raise many many more millions.

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Speaker 2: Now the list of billionaires who are racing to his

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Speaker 2: support is shocking a lot of people because, especially when

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Speaker 2: it comes to Silicon Valley, because they're turning in their

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Speaker 2: droves because they realize finally that they were backing the

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Speaker 2: wrong horse all along. Now there's another article I want

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Speaker 2: to make a quick reference to, and and it's sort

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Speaker 2: of personal, and it's a bit lighting and in its

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Speaker 2: tone for this simple reason. From a site by James

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Speaker 2: Howard Kunstler. It's almost as if the principles, the prosecutors,

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Speaker 2: and the judge were performing for their political audience with

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Speaker 2: a wink and a nod and a stage whisper. Watch

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Speaker 2: this as they ignore yet another fundamental element of American

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Speaker 2: due process. The ninnies of Biden world seem to not

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Speaker 2: understand that by subjecting mister Trump to a kangaroo court,

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Speaker 2: they've made him the kind of outdoor that Americans revere

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Speaker 2: above every other archetypal hero. I just got to say

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Speaker 2: here at this point, the first hero in my life

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Speaker 2: was Robin Hood. He is the new Robin Hood, the

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Speaker 2: people's outlaw, with Joe Biden relegated as the wicked sir guy,

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Speaker 2: of Gisbon, master of foul play, and servant of the

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Speaker 2: evil Regent Prince John in Braggan's Barack Obama. The galvanizing

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Speaker 2: moment of this melodrama was not the verdict of the

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Speaker 2: judge one Merchant's Kangaroo Corral of a Court, but the

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Speaker 2: next day in the White House, when Joe Biden was

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Speaker 2: asked to comment on it, as he shuffled away from

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Speaker 2: the podium, halted, turned and smirked silently at the cameras,

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Speaker 2: a gesture that is sure to live in infamy. If

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Speaker 2: you didn't see that, you need to if you ever

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Speaker 2: get a chance, because it's just picture has a million words.

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Speaker 2: The fund should really kick in when the judge gets

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Speaker 2: to sentenced Trump the outlaw on July eleven, a few

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Speaker 2: days before the Republican Convention, et cetera, et cetera. Now,

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Speaker 2: in a sane world, of course, the US Supreme Court

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Speaker 2: would be entreated to adjudicate this gross insult to due process,

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Speaker 2: as spelled out in Section one of the fourteenth Amendment.

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Speaker 2: And this is where I'm going to terminate it in

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Speaker 2: a second, because this is just one example, but it's

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Speaker 2: a prime example of the corruption of the court here

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Speaker 2: is Section one of the Fourteenth Amendment. No State shall

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Speaker 2: make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges

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Speaker 2: or immunities of citizens of the United States. Nor shall

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Speaker 2: any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property

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Speaker 2: with our due process of law, nor deny to any

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Speaker 2: person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

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Speaker 2: Which you might have noticed that this is not a

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Speaker 2: sane world, at least not these days. Now. The point

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Speaker 2: being is the prosecution and the judge work together to

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Speaker 2: smash Section one of the fourteenth Amendment. And that's only

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Speaker 2: one example corruption beyond belief. Now in a moment, Oliver Hartwitch,

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Speaker 2: now some words from a very happy customer of wet

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Speaker 2: and forget on window which I purchased some window Witch recently,

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Speaker 2: and I'm thrilled with the product. I cleaned the ground

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Speaker 2: level of our home, the big conservatory and the glass

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Speaker 2: balustrades in about forty five minutes, nothing short of brilliant results.

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Speaker 2: Yet's another happy customer. And why are we surprised? Window

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Speaker 2: which exterior glass cleaner is the Bears window cleaner? Ever

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Speaker 2: it is streak free, no need to squeegee ever again

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Speaker 2: because of the invisible liquid squeegee window which is your

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Speaker 2: concentrate and garden sprayer all in one window which is

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Speaker 2: a combination of smart surfucants that dissolve crime and window

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Speaker 2: which has a unique formula that contains citrate water so

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Speaker 2: ofteners and high performance additives to sheet water from the window,

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Speaker 2: eliminating water spotting. So help yourself. Window Witch from wet

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Speaker 2: and Forget over twenty company standalone stores nationwide Wetinforget dot

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Speaker 2: co dot NZ or you can call them on a

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Speaker 2: weight hundred and three zero three thousand window Witch from

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Speaker 2: wet and Forget.

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Speaker 1: Laighton Smith.

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Speaker 2: Oliver Hartwich is the executive director of the New Zealand Initiative.

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Speaker 2: He's been on the podcast on a number of occasions

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Speaker 2: over the years and it's always a pleasure to say

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Speaker 2: thank you if you're agreeing to discuss the budget with

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Speaker 2: us and other matters, because this conversation won't be restricted

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Speaker 2: just to the budget, but Oliver from your own perspective

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Speaker 2: and or from the Initiative's perspective collectively, if you want,

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Speaker 2: what is your overall take on this budget?

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Speaker 3: But first of all, lighton. Great to be with you again.

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Speaker 3: Always a pleasure to talk to you. And as for

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Speaker 3: the budget, well, I wasn't disappointed, but that was only

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Speaker 3: because I didn't have high expectations. The budget was disappointing,

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Speaker 3: perhaps in one way, until we get back to twenty

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Speaker 3: nineteen spending levels. Remember that was Grant Robertson's well being budget.

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Speaker 3: This budget now reveals we'll have to wait until twenty

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Speaker 3: thirty eight, and I think that sums up this budget

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Speaker 3: in a nutshell. It is I would say, not very ambitious,

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Speaker 3: which is also perhaps a bit disappointing if you consider

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Speaker 3: that this is, of course the new government's first budget,

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Speaker 3: and usually first budgets are the most ambitious of them all,

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Speaker 3: because that's when they still think they have a mandate

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Speaker 3: to be a bit more radical, to try a few

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Speaker 3: more things, and then usually governments actually lose that ambition

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Speaker 3: gradually over the years. So for a first budget, I

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Speaker 3: would have liked to see a bit more ambition to

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Speaker 3: bring spending levels back underc because right now they aren't.

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Speaker 2: You've actually introduced something that I wasn't anticipating for a while,

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Speaker 2: so now I will park it just for the minute.

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Speaker 2: But where would you suggest they could have curbed the

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Speaker 2: ambitions that they that they are exercising well.

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Speaker 3: The thing is, if you just go back five years

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Speaker 3: to that twenty nineteen Well Being Budget, that was when

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Speaker 3: Jasinda Adern and Grant Robertson introduced their new vision for

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Speaker 3: fiscal policy, and spending in that Well Being Budget was

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Speaker 3: about twenty nine percent of GDP and it was celebrated

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Speaker 3: as something progressive and ambitious from a kind of progressive

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Speaker 3: side of politics perspective, and nobody would have accused Adirn

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Speaker 3: and Robertson of being driven by austerity or by the

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Speaker 3: wish to slash government spending. We now have a government

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Speaker 3: budget delivered by a National led government that promises to

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Speaker 3: spend thirty three percent of GDP, and yet people are

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Speaker 3: going crazy over how austerity driven this budget is, when

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Speaker 3: in fact they're spending four percent of GDP more than

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Speaker 3: the Adern government did in their first Well Being budget.

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Speaker 3: And that's what I find astonishing. Actually, So when Adurn

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Speaker 3: spends twenty nine percent, people think this is really generous,

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Speaker 3: and when Nicola Willis spends thirty three percent, people say

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Speaker 3: this is actually quite austere. And what I would have

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Speaker 3: liked to see in this budget now is actually a

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Speaker 3: pathway back to where we were before overd and ideally

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Speaker 3: where we were in twenty seventeen before Adurn took over.

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Speaker 3: But the pathway to that physical normality is exceedingly long.

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Speaker 3: So if you have to wait fourteen years just to

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Speaker 3: go back to where we were in twenty nineteen, I

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Speaker 3: don't think that is very ambitious. The other thing I

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Speaker 3: would just mention is actually we have seen enormous spending

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Speaker 3: increases over the last few years. We just looked into

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Speaker 3: them the other day and found that in twenty nineteen

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Speaker 3: we of course projected where we would be today, and

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Speaker 3: so we could actually compare these figures now and realize that,

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Speaker 3: for example, in health, we are currently spending eight billion

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Speaker 3: dollars more then we would have anticipated just five years ago.

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Speaker 3: And then you ask yourself, okay, so we're spending eight

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Speaker 3: billion dollars more in health even compared to what we

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Speaker 3: thought we would, And yet where is all of that

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Speaker 3: money and what has it achieved? Because I haven't actually

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Speaker 3: seen any great improvements in health delivery. What we have

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Speaker 3: seen is of course a massive reorganization of the health sector,

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Speaker 3: where we got ready for DHBs, where we created a

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Speaker 3: new our Health authority, where we instituted a lot new

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Speaker 3: kind of organizational structures without actually seeing any results. So

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Speaker 3: if you're asking where I would have liked to see

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Speaker 3: an emphasis in this budget is actually trying to curb

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Speaker 3: all of these structures, all of this spending that doesn't

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Speaker 3: yield any results, and in doing so then point a

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Speaker 3: clearer pathway back to physical normality.

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Speaker 2: So the obviously question is why didn't they do it.

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Speaker 3: Well? And the obvious answer is because it's totally hard,

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Speaker 3: because you're coming from a perspective where the budget is broken,

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Speaker 3: and not because of their own faults, but because of

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Speaker 3: everything that happened in the six years prior so. The

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Speaker 3: previous government really tested the limits of spending to destruction.

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Speaker 3: They created an almighty mess in fiscal policy. The left

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Speaker 3: a lot of pistol cliffs in the budget, meaning they

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Speaker 3: basically said we're going to fund stuff, but only really

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Speaker 3: funded them for the next year or two, and so

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Speaker 3: they left fiscal holes everywhere across government policy for the

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Speaker 3: new government to clean up. So, coming into that situation

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Speaker 3: now and with just a year actually in government, it

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Speaker 3: is difficult for any government to turn this around. And

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Speaker 3: I understand that a lot of the changes required will

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Speaker 3: also take years to think welfare spending. The previous government

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Speaker 3: did not actually enforce welfare rules, eligibility rules, and we

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Speaker 3: filled the welfare roles with people who shouldn't have been there.

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Speaker 3: That is enormously costly, and to turn that around will

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Speaker 3: take a long time. You probably can't do that overnight.

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Speaker 3: I mean, for all the things done over six years,

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Speaker 3: you can't expect them to fix it in a couple

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Speaker 3: of months. But I would have still liked to see

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Speaker 3: a clearer pathway out of this mess and a clearer

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Speaker 3: ambition to saying, look, we really want to go back

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Speaker 3: to where we once were as a country.

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Speaker 2: Okay, then let me ask you a reverse question. What

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Speaker 2: would you would like to have seen done? What could

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Speaker 2: they have done to head back in that direction that

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Speaker 2: would have won them plowed it well?

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Speaker 3: There are small line items in the budget where you

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Speaker 3: can see that they probably didn't really go through the

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Speaker 3: budget with a fine tooth code. For example, subsidies for

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Speaker 3: the film industry. They are still running over forty million dollars.

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Speaker 3: Now you ask yourself, is that really something that you

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Speaker 3: want to do?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 3: The rest of the budget is deep in the I

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Speaker 3: would have actually thought no, you can probably go a

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Speaker 3: bit harder on that. Next thing is they have issued

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Speaker 3: a blank target to government departments to cut between six

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Speaker 3: and a half and seven and a half percent spending,

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Speaker 3: and we have seen initial cuts of course to public

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Speaker 3: sector employment public service employment to be more specific. Well,

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Speaker 3: I think this could go a lot further, because we

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Speaker 3: know we started from forty seven thousand public servants in

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Speaker 3: twenty seventeen. We are now at a level of about

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Speaker 3: sixty five thousand. They cut about two or maybe three thousand,

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Speaker 3: but there's a long way to go on until we

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Speaker 3: go back to the levels we previously had.

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Speaker 2: Was it wise? I wonder to not take the big leap,

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Speaker 2: but the small step at this particular point, because well,

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Speaker 2: the best reason I can suggest for it is that

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Speaker 2: by making all of those people unemployed, it would create

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Speaker 2: an extra cost in welfare and put far too many

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Speaker 2: people on the unemployment list in a country that is

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Speaker 2: not really creating jobs.

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Speaker 3: No, I don't think so for a moment. And I mean,

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Speaker 3: you wouldn't seriously suggest that all those people now employed

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Speaker 3: by the public service in Wellington are so poorly qualified

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Speaker 3: that they wouldn't find jobs elsewhere, would you.

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Speaker 2: Well, if I was going to be honest, I'd say

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Speaker 2: that I'd question how employable they were, otherwise they might

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Speaker 2: not be in the public service.

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Speaker 3: There was a bit tongue in cheek anyway, but seriously,

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Speaker 3: there is no justification for employing that many people here

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Speaker 3: in Wellington. I mean, you look at individual departments and

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Speaker 3: you can see how much they have ballooned. My favorite

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Speaker 3: example is still the Ministry of Education that started its

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Speaker 3: life after the Department of Education in the early two

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Speaker 3: thousands on about four hundred people, and it's gone up

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Speaker 3: to about four and a half thousand. So we have

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Speaker 3: more bureaucrats in that ministry that we have schools in

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Speaker 3: the country. And I think you would probably find it

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Speaker 3: easy to cut back a little bit there.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I mentioned you took took us somewhere that I

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Speaker 2: wasn't going to go for a bit. The date of

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Speaker 2: thirty eight, twenty thirty eight, The date that I saw

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Speaker 2: that caught my attention and the really frustrated me was

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Speaker 2: twenty forty. That figgure has been mentioned in a couple

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Speaker 2: of opinion pieces. Twenty forty is when we are basically

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Speaker 2: looking for the country to reappear on the international scene

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Speaker 2: at any at any strength or level. Of strength twenty forty. Well,

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Speaker 2: you mentioned fourteen years, So fourteen or fifteen years from now,

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Speaker 2: that's what we're aiming at. And I couldn't agree with

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Speaker 2: you more that if we're looking that far ahead before

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Speaker 2: we can expect any real improvements. Then I repeat something

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Speaker 2: that somebody said to me just recently in answer to

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Speaker 2: a question. I said, how bad is it? And the

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Speaker 2: answer was very very, very bad or words that meant

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Speaker 2: the same. I don't remember exactly the quote, but extremely

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Speaker 2: bad was the state of the.

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Speaker 3: Country, Yes, and I would agree with that. I also

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Speaker 3: think actually twenty forty or thirty eight, as shocking as

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Speaker 3: it seems, is a realistic prospect for getting things back

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Speaker 3: under control, because in some of our areas of government

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Speaker 3: policy or problems are so enormous that it will take

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Speaker 3: a long long time to fix them. Again, talk about education.

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Speaker 3: So we have an education system that is currently plagued

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Speaker 3: by low attendance rates. So only forty six percent of

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Speaker 3: our school students are now attending school regularly, meaning at

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Speaker 3: least ninety percent of the time. We have seen our

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Speaker 3: results in international studies go back over decades. So think

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Speaker 3: of PISA and Timson Pearls that's going backwards. And we

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Speaker 3: now also have a new generation of teachers recently revealed

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Speaker 3: in a study by the ends at IR in New

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Speaker 3: Zealand Institute of Economic Research, where a huge proportion of

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Speaker 3: our young teachers have actually failed maths in English in

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Speaker 3: their own school time. So if you want to rebuild

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Speaker 3: a system with that kind of personnel, it's going to

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Speaker 3: be hard because we have plenty of teachers now in

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Speaker 3: our schools who have probably never seen what a good

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Speaker 3: school looks like, not even in their own experience. So

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Speaker 3: all of these reforms that we're doing now that my

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Speaker 3: colleague Michael Johnson is working on now as chair of

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Speaker 3: Erica Stanford's Ministerial Advisory Group, they are the right things

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Speaker 3: to do, except you can't expect results overnight. They will

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Speaker 3: take years to work their way through the system. I'm

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Speaker 3: not saying it will take until twenty forty, but you

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Speaker 3: can't expect an overnight improvement in our education results. That

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Speaker 3: will take a long time because the system is fundamentally broken.

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Speaker 2: Which part of it is fundamentally broken the teaching?

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Speaker 3: Do you say which part is fundamentally broken? I would

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Speaker 3: say which part isn't Because practically everything in our education

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Speaker 3: system is not fit for purpose. You look at some

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Speaker 3: teacher training, well, we know actually from our own research

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Speaker 3: here the Initiative, that our young teachers do not get

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Speaker 3: the training that would actually prepare them for standing in

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Speaker 3: front of a classroom. You look at the way we're

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Speaker 3: teaching literacy and numeracy, and we know again from our

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Speaker 3: own research that for decades we've been going in the

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Speaker 3: wrong direction on both and we now have about forty

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Speaker 3: to fifty percent of school leavers leaving school functionally illiterate

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Speaker 3: and enumerate. What else of the system is not working? Well,

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Speaker 3: we could talk about what students do after leaving school.

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Speaker 3: Our vocational education system is broken after the forced amalgamation

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Speaker 3: of the politics into poking on and what it is

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Speaker 3: ours that has been We could then talk about a

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Speaker 3: university system, and again we hosted a symposium just a

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Speaker 3: few weeks ago at the Initiative we talked about the

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Speaker 3: state of university education New Zealand, and it is broken

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Speaker 3: on practically every level. You talk about free speech, academic freedom,

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Speaker 3: and universities. You talk about the financial financial situation of universities.

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Speaker 3: It is not a pretty picture. So no matter what

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Speaker 3: aspect of the education system you're looking at. It is

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Speaker 3: under enormous pressure and it will take a long time

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Speaker 3: to fix it.

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Speaker 2: You didn't actually use the word curriculum.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's probably because I forgot to mention it, because

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Speaker 3: there's so many other things that are wrong. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the curriculum is another field which is fundamentally broken because actually,

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Speaker 3: let's face it, we don't really have a proper curriculum

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Speaker 3: right now. It is a flimsy document that doesn't actually

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Speaker 3: give you any proper guidance on what students are supposed

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Speaker 3: to learn our school. And the flip side of the curriculum,

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Speaker 3: of course, is the assessment system that also needs to

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Speaker 3: be reformed, because at the moment, the assessment system is

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Speaker 3: geared towards ensuring that every students enough points to get

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Speaker 3: a certificate at the end, whether they learned anything before

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Speaker 3: or not. I mean, all of these areas are areas

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Speaker 3: of reform right now. So Erica Stanford is doing exactly

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Speaker 3: the right things across the whole board of education problems.

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Speaker 3: But even with the best efforts, we shouldn't expect miracles

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Speaker 3: from America Stanford. I'm a huge fan of Erica Stanford's work.

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Speaker 3: Don't get me wrong, and I think she's doing exactly

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Speaker 3: the right things. But I think it would be unfair

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Speaker 3: to measure her by successes that she would have had

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Speaker 3: in a year or two, because from where we are

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Speaker 3: coming from, this is going to be a very, very

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Speaker 3: long process.

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Speaker 2: I interviewed somebody last week in the podcast Militia Grisola

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Speaker 2: from a primary school in West Sydney. I was talking

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Speaker 2: with some people yesterday about it, and the comment I

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Speaker 2: got was how good she was, and they were very

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Speaker 2: enthusiastic about what she had to say. And then one

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Speaker 2: of them said, yeah, but it's all just come and sense,

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Speaker 2: isn't it. And that created another discussion about the lack

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Speaker 2: of common sense. Common sense is not common anymore, and

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Speaker 2: for so many of those students who become teachers, they

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Speaker 2: have no idea about basics and common sense lit alone

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Speaker 2: getting a decent enough of education be able to teach

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Speaker 2: the curriculum whatever it might.

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Speaker 3: That's right, that's right. And I listened to your interview

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Speaker 3: last week and I also came back with the same

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Speaker 3: impression that this is just common sense. She reminded me

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Speaker 3: very much of Katherine Berbertsing, another fantastic mistress. The head

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Speaker 3: of mikhaela School in London in Wembley, and for years,

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Speaker 3: of course Katherine Berbertsing has been on that mission to

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Speaker 3: introduce common sense back into the British education system with

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Speaker 3: enormously positive results. So it's probably now the best school

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Speaker 3: anywhere you can find in England, and it's based on

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Speaker 3: common sense, on actually teaching the basics and teaching them well,

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Speaker 3: i'll give you another exam. But we visited Ireland last

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Speaker 3: year with a delegation of the New Zealand Initiative and

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Speaker 3: we had a session with the Irish Education Ministry in

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Speaker 3: Dublin and they talked us through their basic strategies and

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Speaker 3: what they're trying to achieve. They taught us how they

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Speaker 3: measure success and how they're tracking their interventions, and you know,

403
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Speaker 3: we all sat there and thought, well, wouldn't it be

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Speaker 3: nice to hear something like that from our own education

405
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Speaker 3: ministry because there was none of this kind of modernist

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Speaker 3: nonsense that you often get, and none of the languages

407
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Speaker 3: that you wouldn't even understand because they sounds so sociological.

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Speaker 3: It was just good old common sense and trying to

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Speaker 3: make sure that their students get a decent education that

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Speaker 3: they learn how to read and write and do maths

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Speaker 3: and get a basic science education, and then tracking the

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Speaker 3: progress of their schools. It was just so refreshing to

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Speaker 3: hear that from a ministry because we haven't had that

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Speaker 3: kind of conversation with a ministry for years.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I want to stay with Militia Grizzuola just for

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Speaker 2: a moment longer. There are teachers who have no idea

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Speaker 2: about the way that she approaches things as a principal

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Speaker 2: of a school, but she outlines the way that she

419
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Speaker 2: trained some of those teachers that came to her school,

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Speaker 2: And the best part of it all, as far as

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Speaker 2: I was concerned, was right at the very end of

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Speaker 2: the discussion where she said the first thing she says

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Speaker 2: to a new teacher that arrives, sits them down and

424
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Speaker 2: talks to them and says, everything you learned at university,

425
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Speaker 2: forget it, and then retrains them. Famili, Do we not

426
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Speaker 2: just need a handful even of principles who are capable

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Speaker 2: of taking that approach.

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Speaker 3: Yes, we need these principles, and principles play a massive

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Speaker 3: role in our education system, but it shouldn't be up

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Speaker 3: to the principles to undo the damage done by university

431
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Speaker 3: education departments. I mean, ideally, you wouldn't want to have

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Speaker 3: any damage to correct in the first place, So we

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Speaker 3: should probably go back to proper teacher education as we

434
00:26:06,053 --> 00:26:08,573
Speaker 3: once had it. I mean today, when you look at

435
00:26:09,013 --> 00:26:13,693
Speaker 3: teacher education that happens predominantly at our universities, these teachers

436
00:26:13,733 --> 00:26:17,613
Speaker 3: are getting sociology lessons basically, but they're never really taught

437
00:26:17,653 --> 00:26:20,053
Speaker 3: practically what it means to stand in front of a classroom.

438
00:26:20,533 --> 00:26:23,293
Speaker 3: So we produced a report at the initiative last year

439
00:26:23,933 --> 00:26:26,853
Speaker 3: that was by my colleague Michael Johnston with his or

440
00:26:26,933 --> 00:26:29,973
Speaker 3: researcher Stephanie Martin. And Stephanie is a teacher herself, and

441
00:26:30,013 --> 00:26:33,133
Speaker 3: she writes up in that introductory chapter of the report,

442
00:26:33,453 --> 00:26:37,253
Speaker 3: which you can find on our website, her experience of

443
00:26:37,333 --> 00:26:40,093
Speaker 3: studying to become a teacher at the University of Auckland

444
00:26:40,373 --> 00:26:43,733
Speaker 3: and then realizing how useless that all education was once

445
00:26:43,773 --> 00:26:46,253
Speaker 3: she actually stood in front of first students for the

446
00:26:46,253 --> 00:26:49,053
Speaker 3: first time. So we've got a problem. It shouldn't be

447
00:26:49,093 --> 00:26:52,533
Speaker 3: actually left to the principles to undo the damage. Ideally

448
00:26:52,573 --> 00:26:55,293
Speaker 3: we would actually provide our teachers a decent education in

449
00:26:55,293 --> 00:26:55,973
Speaker 3: the first place.

450
00:26:56,133 --> 00:26:59,133
Speaker 2: Yes, but you've got to start somewhere and working in

451
00:26:59,173 --> 00:27:03,493
Speaker 2: reverse is probably going to get you the fastest result. Yeah.

452
00:27:03,533 --> 00:27:05,253
Speaker 3: Well, but what you can also do is, of course

453
00:27:05,293 --> 00:27:09,253
Speaker 3: you can establish an alternative teacher education system training system,

454
00:27:09,253 --> 00:27:12,413
Speaker 3: and we have some parts of that already operating in

455
00:27:12,453 --> 00:27:17,133
Speaker 3: the country. There is one training college in christ Church

456
00:27:17,173 --> 00:27:19,373
Speaker 3: that does it that way in cooperation with the schools

457
00:27:19,373 --> 00:27:23,213
Speaker 3: where the teacher's actually in practical experience. And from what

458
00:27:23,253 --> 00:27:26,373
Speaker 3: I've heard, a number of Auckland schools are now thinking

459
00:27:26,413 --> 00:27:30,173
Speaker 3: about pulling out of university teacher education by organizing their

460
00:27:30,213 --> 00:27:31,613
Speaker 3: own training courses.

461
00:27:32,893 --> 00:27:36,333
Speaker 2: That's the best news I've heard today. Education is something

462
00:27:36,413 --> 00:27:39,173
Speaker 2: we spend so much time on and yet and yet

463
00:27:39,613 --> 00:27:44,373
Speaker 2: the results of the old discussion and the nitpicking seems

464
00:27:44,373 --> 00:27:48,333
Speaker 2: to have got us nowhere to date. But your confidence

465
00:27:48,413 --> 00:27:52,453
Speaker 2: in the new minister, I think is probably quite valid

466
00:27:53,093 --> 00:27:55,733
Speaker 2: and I'm looking forward to those results.

467
00:27:56,973 --> 00:28:00,533
Speaker 3: Cars I'm optimistic, I would say, because I can see

468
00:28:00,533 --> 00:28:03,093
Speaker 3: it on a daily basis here in the office. My

469
00:28:03,173 --> 00:28:08,373
Speaker 3: colleague Michael Johnston chairs Erica Stanford's Minister Advisory Group, and

470
00:28:08,453 --> 00:28:09,773
Speaker 3: therefore every now and then I get a bit of

471
00:28:09,773 --> 00:28:13,133
Speaker 3: an insight into what's happening and the amount of reform

472
00:28:13,213 --> 00:28:15,773
Speaker 3: work they're doing, and I'm hugely impressed. It's the kind

473
00:28:15,813 --> 00:28:18,933
Speaker 3: of education reforms that for years we've only been talking

474
00:28:18,933 --> 00:28:21,653
Speaker 3: about and now they're happening. So for the first time,

475
00:28:21,693 --> 00:28:24,693
Speaker 3: really in twelve years of doing education, working at the initiative,

476
00:28:24,733 --> 00:28:25,733
Speaker 3: I'm really optimistic.

477
00:28:26,493 --> 00:28:29,853
Speaker 2: Let's look at some of the other aspects of the budget,

478
00:28:30,773 --> 00:28:34,053
Speaker 2: I think, just briefly, because it's had so much coverage already.

479
00:28:34,613 --> 00:28:37,973
Speaker 2: Tax changes. Is there anything worthwhile in the tax changes?

480
00:28:38,773 --> 00:28:42,493
Speaker 3: Oh, let's talk about this in parts. I mean, I

481
00:28:42,573 --> 00:28:46,373
Speaker 3: understand why the government went ahead with the tax cuts

482
00:28:46,413 --> 00:28:50,213
Speaker 3: simply for political reasons. I've had this discussion with ministers

483
00:28:50,213 --> 00:28:54,533
Speaker 3: and actually with the Prime Minister themselves, and I argued, actually,

484
00:28:54,573 --> 00:28:57,373
Speaker 3: you probably shouldn't look at text cuts while the budget

485
00:28:57,453 --> 00:29:00,093
Speaker 3: is in such a big structural deficit, because you only

486
00:29:00,133 --> 00:29:04,653
Speaker 3: make your pistal consolidation job harder for yourselves. And the

487
00:29:04,733 --> 00:29:08,733
Speaker 3: answer I always got from the government was, look, promises

488
00:29:08,853 --> 00:29:11,613
Speaker 3: when we campaigned, we now have to deliver because otherwise

489
00:29:11,613 --> 00:29:15,213
Speaker 3: we'll lose all our credibility or political credibility just half

490
00:29:15,213 --> 00:29:18,133
Speaker 3: a year into the job. And I understand that political

491
00:29:18,173 --> 00:29:22,573
Speaker 3: calculus to a degree. I would say though that I

492
00:29:22,573 --> 00:29:25,013
Speaker 3: think most people would be understanding if you told them, Look,

493
00:29:25,093 --> 00:29:27,693
Speaker 3: we just took over. We found all the physical cliffs

494
00:29:27,693 --> 00:29:30,853
Speaker 3: and physical rules, and yes we promised you tax belief,

495
00:29:30,933 --> 00:29:33,973
Speaker 3: but we found a situation that is much much worse

496
00:29:34,013 --> 00:29:36,893
Speaker 3: and even we anticipated, and therefore we can't deliver it

497
00:29:36,973 --> 00:29:39,493
Speaker 3: just yet. This will have to wait maybe until next

498
00:29:39,573 --> 00:29:41,933
Speaker 3: year or the year after. I think people would have

499
00:29:42,013 --> 00:29:45,933
Speaker 3: understood that. So that's the political side of things. On

500
00:29:45,973 --> 00:29:49,093
Speaker 3: the economic side of things, I think it's clearer. We

501
00:29:49,173 --> 00:29:53,533
Speaker 3: are running the second largest structural deficit in the developed world.

502
00:29:54,133 --> 00:29:57,133
Speaker 3: There's only one country that has a higher structural deficit

503
00:29:57,213 --> 00:29:59,693
Speaker 3: than us in that's the United States. There's a small

504
00:29:59,693 --> 00:30:02,013
Speaker 3: difference between New Zealand and the United States because the

505
00:30:02,093 --> 00:30:05,293
Speaker 3: United States can print US dollars and somehow the world

506
00:30:05,373 --> 00:30:08,693
Speaker 3: things that US dollars are still useful. Therefore they get

507
00:30:08,733 --> 00:30:13,853
Speaker 3: away with this fiscal perflicacy. When Easiland, the situation is different.

508
00:30:14,253 --> 00:30:16,693
Speaker 3: We can't get away with structural deficits. And I should

509
00:30:16,693 --> 00:30:20,453
Speaker 3: probably explain what structural deficits are. So basically, a structural

510
00:30:20,453 --> 00:30:22,453
Speaker 3: deficit is a deficit. Yet you would have in a

511
00:30:22,493 --> 00:30:25,493
Speaker 3: normal year, So when the economy is not particularly booming,

512
00:30:25,533 --> 00:30:28,413
Speaker 3: when it's not in particular in a particular recession, but

513
00:30:28,533 --> 00:30:32,053
Speaker 3: just in a normal year, whether your taxes and your

514
00:30:32,613 --> 00:30:35,693
Speaker 3: spending actually end up. And on that measure, we are

515
00:30:35,733 --> 00:30:40,053
Speaker 3: currently running a massive structural deficit, and that is just

516
00:30:40,093 --> 00:30:42,253
Speaker 3: not sustainable because it would mean that if you do

517
00:30:42,333 --> 00:30:45,813
Speaker 3: this long enough, the country will go broke. Therefore, I

518
00:30:45,813 --> 00:30:50,813
Speaker 3: would have prioritized consolidating the budget, consolidating our finances and

519
00:30:51,253 --> 00:30:55,973
Speaker 3: basically closing this fiscal deficit and the structural deficit before

520
00:30:56,093 --> 00:30:59,573
Speaker 3: even contemplating any text cuts. So that's one thing to

521
00:30:59,613 --> 00:31:02,853
Speaker 3: look out. There is another way of looking at it economically,

522
00:31:02,893 --> 00:31:06,413
Speaker 3: which again perhaps makes the government's case a bit more

523
00:31:06,733 --> 00:31:10,093
Speaker 3: and that is the text inaxation issue, because actually, let's

524
00:31:10,093 --> 00:31:12,813
Speaker 3: face it, what we got now wasn't even a real

525
00:31:12,893 --> 00:31:15,773
Speaker 3: tax cut in that sense. It was basically just restoring

526
00:31:16,053 --> 00:31:18,133
Speaker 3: the tax brackets to a state where they would have

527
00:31:18,133 --> 00:31:21,973
Speaker 3: been had they been adjusted to normal inflation. And that

528
00:31:22,173 --> 00:31:25,213
Speaker 3: I think makes good sense in principle, and I think

529
00:31:25,253 --> 00:31:28,373
Speaker 3: we should probably make this a general rule that every

530
00:31:28,453 --> 00:31:32,733
Speaker 3: year the tax brackets automatically get adjusted by say, the

531
00:31:32,733 --> 00:31:36,733
Speaker 3: consumer price index. And that would also make this less

532
00:31:36,733 --> 00:31:39,973
Speaker 3: political because everybody would know this is happening on an

533
00:31:40,013 --> 00:31:43,293
Speaker 3: annual basis, and every year we get them adjusted just

534
00:31:43,333 --> 00:31:45,973
Speaker 3: in line with inflation. So I think that would make

535
00:31:46,013 --> 00:31:47,973
Speaker 3: sense to actually move to such a system in the

536
00:31:47,973 --> 00:31:51,773
Speaker 3: long run, well in the medium term hopefully, But right

537
00:31:51,853 --> 00:31:56,093
Speaker 3: now I would have on balance come down to keeping

538
00:31:56,453 --> 00:31:58,813
Speaker 3: the tax brackets just for this year as they are

539
00:31:58,853 --> 00:32:01,853
Speaker 3: because of his Scoo. Situation is so dire and we

540
00:32:01,933 --> 00:32:05,453
Speaker 3: probably can't afford as if tax adjustments, even they are

541
00:32:05,453 --> 00:32:08,253
Speaker 3: not even amounting to much of a tax cut.

542
00:32:09,933 --> 00:32:13,493
Speaker 2: Let me approach a couple of other aspects, the forecasts

543
00:32:13,773 --> 00:32:16,613
Speaker 2: that we've already discussed, and as I read through them

544
00:32:16,773 --> 00:32:19,453
Speaker 2: again in a couple of opinion pieces as well as

545
00:32:19,493 --> 00:32:23,173
Speaker 2: I read as I read through them, I thought, this

546
00:32:23,213 --> 00:32:26,053
Speaker 2: is all guesswork. The last few years have shown us

547
00:32:26,293 --> 00:32:32,893
Speaker 2: on two major fronts. COVID secondly, but the irresponsibility of

548
00:32:32,893 --> 00:32:36,333
Speaker 2: the administration that was in for three years before before

549
00:32:36,373 --> 00:32:39,893
Speaker 2: that ever happened. We don't know what's around the corner.

550
00:32:40,573 --> 00:32:43,493
Speaker 2: How do we how do we? I mean, how can

551
00:32:44,973 --> 00:32:49,213
Speaker 2: how can you as a Prime minister, mister of finance,

552
00:32:49,653 --> 00:32:52,933
Speaker 2: as part of the government, how could you say this

553
00:32:52,973 --> 00:32:55,053
Speaker 2: is what we're going to do, This is how we're

554
00:32:55,053 --> 00:32:58,413
Speaker 2: going to achieve it, and by twenty forty we should

555
00:32:58,413 --> 00:33:00,613
Speaker 2: be back on track. When you have no idea what's

556
00:33:00,613 --> 00:33:03,653
Speaker 2: going to come between now and then, and maybe you

557
00:33:03,693 --> 00:33:08,733
Speaker 2: should be taking precautionary measures to cover for that makes.

558
00:33:08,573 --> 00:33:12,013
Speaker 3: Sense, Ye, makes perfect sense. That's exactly how I feel

559
00:33:12,053 --> 00:33:15,893
Speaker 3: as well. So there are many assumptions, of course in

560
00:33:15,933 --> 00:33:20,213
Speaker 3: the budget, and both of them strike me as relatively optimistic.

561
00:33:20,373 --> 00:33:24,733
Speaker 3: So they have inflation go down relatively quickly. They have

562
00:33:25,853 --> 00:33:30,173
Speaker 3: or financing costs for government debt staying moderately as at

563
00:33:30,213 --> 00:33:34,173
Speaker 3: around four and a half percent. They don't, of course

564
00:33:34,373 --> 00:33:36,893
Speaker 3: model what would happen after an earthquake is an army

565
00:33:37,333 --> 00:33:39,893
Speaker 3: of volcanic eruption, and yet we know that these events

566
00:33:40,013 --> 00:33:44,293
Speaker 3: occur quite regularly in New Zealand. So I think there

567
00:33:44,333 --> 00:33:47,493
Speaker 3: are lots of risks on the downside. On the upside,

568
00:33:47,573 --> 00:33:49,933
Speaker 3: I mean, what could happen that really surprised us? I mean,

569
00:33:50,093 --> 00:33:53,493
Speaker 3: I think suddenly getting a splurge of productivity, probably not.

570
00:33:54,213 --> 00:33:56,493
Speaker 3: Are we suddenly seeing all the conflicts in the global

571
00:33:56,493 --> 00:34:01,293
Speaker 3: economy disappear between the West and China, Russia and the others.

572
00:34:01,613 --> 00:34:05,733
Speaker 3: Probably not. So I think there are way more risks

573
00:34:05,773 --> 00:34:09,533
Speaker 3: actually on the downside and or modeling doesn't take that

574
00:34:09,573 --> 00:34:13,693
Speaker 3: into account properly. And by the way, I also think

575
00:34:13,733 --> 00:34:16,653
Speaker 3: we should always leave a bit more room for maneuver

576
00:34:16,813 --> 00:34:21,013
Speaker 3: for these external shocks when they occur, because they are

577
00:34:21,653 --> 00:34:24,213
Speaker 3: of course from memory. I think we spend about twenty

578
00:34:24,253 --> 00:34:27,853
Speaker 3: thirty percent of GDP on the cleanup of the Canterbury earthquakes.

579
00:34:27,853 --> 00:34:30,853
Speaker 3: So just imagine the Wellington Ford line goes off or

580
00:34:30,853 --> 00:34:33,573
Speaker 3: the Alpine fault, and then you would look at an

581
00:34:33,613 --> 00:34:37,173
Speaker 3: event of similar magnitude, if not larger. So I would

582
00:34:37,293 --> 00:34:41,493
Speaker 3: ideally like to leave some buffer for such events. And

583
00:34:41,493 --> 00:34:43,893
Speaker 3: that's another reason why we should actually try to keep

584
00:34:43,933 --> 00:34:46,533
Speaker 3: government debt as a percentage of GDP much lower than

585
00:34:46,573 --> 00:34:49,773
Speaker 3: it is in countries like the US or Europe, because

586
00:34:49,813 --> 00:34:52,613
Speaker 3: they don't have these extra risks added to their economies.

587
00:34:52,653 --> 00:34:54,933
Speaker 3: And that's why we I think, have to be even

588
00:34:54,933 --> 00:34:55,853
Speaker 3: more cautious here.

589
00:34:56,493 --> 00:35:00,013
Speaker 2: But it's rather a small spanner in the works with

590
00:35:00,133 --> 00:35:06,813
Speaker 2: regard to the makeup of this country. There is growing

591
00:35:06,853 --> 00:35:11,133
Speaker 2: division at the moment. Fact it's never gone away. It

592
00:35:11,213 --> 00:35:14,413
Speaker 2: might calm down in better times, but it shows itself

593
00:35:15,133 --> 00:35:18,013
Speaker 2: with higher profile at a time like this. This is

594
00:35:18,053 --> 00:35:23,413
Speaker 2: the disagreement between races, to put it simply, and the

595
00:35:23,453 --> 00:35:30,133
Speaker 2: spin offs from those if we continue on this particular path.

596
00:35:30,333 --> 00:35:32,613
Speaker 2: If we had continued on the path that they put

597
00:35:32,653 --> 00:35:34,373
Speaker 2: us on, or they were intending to put us on

598
00:35:35,253 --> 00:35:40,413
Speaker 2: back in the previous administration, I fear the country would

599
00:35:40,413 --> 00:35:44,613
Speaker 2: have been lost forever. But at the moment I'm questioning

600
00:35:44,653 --> 00:35:47,853
Speaker 2: whether or not there need needs to be far more

601
00:35:47,933 --> 00:35:53,853
Speaker 2: done to overcome this son, far more done on a

602
00:35:54,093 --> 00:35:57,813
Speaker 2: if necessary, confrontational level, to overcome the issues.

603
00:36:00,173 --> 00:36:02,373
Speaker 3: Yeah, the problem is actually that the genie is also

604
00:36:02,413 --> 00:36:05,253
Speaker 3: a bottle. It's really difficult to get it back in

605
00:36:05,413 --> 00:36:09,933
Speaker 3: after six years of having that as government pollus. It

606
00:36:10,453 --> 00:36:13,853
Speaker 3: scares me the development were on and it has actually

607
00:36:13,853 --> 00:36:16,173
Speaker 3: turned the country into a completely different country to the

608
00:36:16,173 --> 00:36:19,453
Speaker 3: one that I migrated to in twenty twelve. So when

609
00:36:19,453 --> 00:36:22,933
Speaker 3: I arrived here coming from Australia, I thought, actually Nsiven

610
00:36:23,053 --> 00:36:26,373
Speaker 3: was fortunate to be in race relations where it was

611
00:36:26,413 --> 00:36:28,453
Speaker 3: at the time, especially VIISA of the Australia. Were there

612
00:36:29,253 --> 00:36:32,293
Speaker 3: many more unsolved problems, I would say, And it seemed

613
00:36:32,333 --> 00:36:34,533
Speaker 3: to me, at least in contrast with Australia much more

614
00:36:34,573 --> 00:36:38,533
Speaker 3: harmonious as it was in twenty twelve, where everybody got

615
00:36:38,613 --> 00:36:41,733
Speaker 3: on and where the basic issues were resolved, they were

616
00:36:41,773 --> 00:36:45,693
Speaker 3: of course some still lingering injustices, because you could actually

617
00:36:45,693 --> 00:36:48,853
Speaker 3: look at, for example, education rates and compare them across

618
00:36:48,893 --> 00:36:51,893
Speaker 3: different ethnic lines and find that Mari and Pacific Our

619
00:36:51,893 --> 00:36:54,853
Speaker 3: students were on average far less successful at school than

620
00:36:55,493 --> 00:36:59,573
Speaker 3: Parking Are students, and especially Asian students. But I think

621
00:36:59,773 --> 00:37:02,573
Speaker 3: in order to fix these discrepancies, you would have focused

622
00:37:02,613 --> 00:37:06,173
Speaker 3: on the issues at hand, namely the education system. Instead,

623
00:37:06,253 --> 00:37:09,253
Speaker 3: what the government did from twenty seven onwards was to

624
00:37:09,253 --> 00:37:13,853
Speaker 3: turn every such socioeconomic problem into a race issue, and

625
00:37:14,813 --> 00:37:17,653
Speaker 3: I think in doing so it actually divided the country enormously,

626
00:37:17,933 --> 00:37:22,413
Speaker 3: and that is really difficult to mend together again. Know

627
00:37:22,613 --> 00:37:25,733
Speaker 3: that we've had a change of government, but in principle

628
00:37:25,773 --> 00:37:27,853
Speaker 3: I agree with you, this country is divided. I'm just

629
00:37:27,933 --> 00:37:31,773
Speaker 3: not sure whether a direct confrontational approach would help us,

630
00:37:31,853 --> 00:37:34,493
Speaker 3: or whether this would actually drive the country even further apart.

631
00:37:35,133 --> 00:37:38,133
Speaker 3: I wish we could just work on issues where there

632
00:37:38,133 --> 00:37:41,573
Speaker 3: are discrepancies, like education, fix these issues, and I hope

633
00:37:41,613 --> 00:37:45,573
Speaker 3: that by doing that we would make the overlying race

634
00:37:45,653 --> 00:37:48,213
Speaker 3: issues slowly disappear.

635
00:37:51,093 --> 00:37:55,653
Speaker 2: It's a nice it's a pleasant thought. I I have

636
00:37:55,813 --> 00:37:57,893
Speaker 2: serious doubts if you've.

637
00:37:57,733 --> 00:38:00,893
Speaker 3: Got I'm not saying that I'm confident that it will work,

638
00:38:00,973 --> 00:38:04,933
Speaker 3: but I would like to see a path to resolving

639
00:38:04,933 --> 00:38:07,773
Speaker 3: these issues that seize the least amount of confrontation and

640
00:38:07,853 --> 00:38:10,653
Speaker 3: polarize session, because we've got enough of that already.

641
00:38:11,773 --> 00:38:15,333
Speaker 2: Well, certainly I agree, which leads me on to the

642
00:38:15,373 --> 00:38:21,013
Speaker 2: situation in another part of the world, Switzerland, and there

643
00:38:21,013 --> 00:38:26,013
Speaker 2: has been a small campaign over a number of years

644
00:38:26,053 --> 00:38:29,453
Speaker 2: to try and introduce the Swiss system to the hundred

645
00:38:29,533 --> 00:38:34,693
Speaker 2: Days into New Zealand. Just before I go on, would

646
00:38:34,773 --> 00:38:36,893
Speaker 2: you approve of that? Do you think that would be

647
00:38:36,933 --> 00:38:37,573
Speaker 2: a good idea?

648
00:38:38,213 --> 00:38:41,013
Speaker 3: Well, as you know, Laton, I'm a huge fan of Switzerland.

649
00:38:42,053 --> 00:38:45,453
Speaker 3: Switzerland is one of the most fascinating countries on Earth

650
00:38:45,533 --> 00:38:48,613
Speaker 3: because they are doing so many things differently, and they're

651
00:38:48,653 --> 00:38:52,493
Speaker 3: doing so many things much better than us. So anything

652
00:38:52,533 --> 00:38:55,333
Speaker 3: that Switzerland does I think is worth studying. And I've

653
00:38:55,413 --> 00:38:57,853
Speaker 3: really always admired Switzerland and a power from that. I mean,

654
00:38:57,893 --> 00:39:00,413
Speaker 3: as a German, you look at Switzerland think well, the

655
00:39:00,413 --> 00:39:02,533
Speaker 3: Swiss are just like the Germans, but nobody hates them,

656
00:39:02,613 --> 00:39:07,573
Speaker 3: so that's great. And when I look at Switzerland, what

657
00:39:07,733 --> 00:39:10,613
Speaker 3: I particular like is the way the country runs from

658
00:39:10,653 --> 00:39:14,733
Speaker 3: the bottom up. There's hardly anyone in the Swiss federal government.

659
00:39:15,053 --> 00:39:17,213
Speaker 3: Do you know how many ministers they have in burn.

660
00:39:17,893 --> 00:39:22,253
Speaker 2: Next to none? Seven. Yeah, that's it.

661
00:39:22,333 --> 00:39:25,613
Speaker 3: And the presidency of Switzerland rotates among the ministers. And

662
00:39:25,613 --> 00:39:29,733
Speaker 3: the ministers, by the way, are drawn from all political parties,

663
00:39:29,773 --> 00:39:31,933
Speaker 3: and it has been like that for decades, so they've

664
00:39:31,973 --> 00:39:36,293
Speaker 3: got a permanent all party coalition. The only reason why

665
00:39:36,333 --> 00:39:39,733
Speaker 3: that works is because everything in the end is subject

666
00:39:39,813 --> 00:39:42,093
Speaker 3: to the threat of a referendum. That's the one hundred

667
00:39:42,173 --> 00:39:45,733
Speaker 3: days you're talking about. So you collect enough signatures, you

668
00:39:45,813 --> 00:39:48,173
Speaker 3: take it to the people, and then the people will

669
00:39:48,173 --> 00:39:52,053
Speaker 3: have the final word. And I think that's a wonderful model.

670
00:39:52,053 --> 00:39:54,253
Speaker 3: But the other thing that works well about Switzerland is

671
00:39:54,293 --> 00:39:59,733
Speaker 3: the decentralization. The decentralization. We're in a country the size

672
00:39:59,853 --> 00:40:03,853
Speaker 3: of Canterbury with just over nine million people. They have

673
00:40:03,933 --> 00:40:08,813
Speaker 3: twenty six cantons and two thousand councils, and each and

674
00:40:08,893 --> 00:40:13,053
Speaker 3: each council has its own income tax system, so in effact,

675
00:40:13,253 --> 00:40:15,813
Speaker 3: you have more than two thousand different income tax systems

676
00:40:15,853 --> 00:40:18,893
Speaker 3: and Switzerland and our sounds crazy, of course when you

677
00:40:18,933 --> 00:40:20,933
Speaker 3: talk about it here in New Zealanders typically say, oh,

678
00:40:20,973 --> 00:40:24,933
Speaker 3: this must be a recipe, recipe for disaster. Actually it

679
00:40:25,013 --> 00:40:27,653
Speaker 3: is not, because it works. It has actually kept taxes

680
00:40:27,733 --> 00:40:30,853
Speaker 3: quite low in Switzerland. It has made sure that Swiss

681
00:40:30,893 --> 00:40:34,893
Speaker 3: local government is responsive to the population and that people

682
00:40:34,893 --> 00:40:39,533
Speaker 3: are actually treated like customers by their councils, which you

683
00:40:39,573 --> 00:40:42,693
Speaker 3: couldn't say of council's relationships with New Zealanders. And so

684
00:40:42,773 --> 00:40:46,333
Speaker 3: I think structurally Switzerland works so much better. So I

685
00:40:46,373 --> 00:40:49,333
Speaker 3: think we should study this system a lot more and

686
00:40:49,853 --> 00:40:52,973
Speaker 3: try to figure out what we could copy from them.

687
00:40:53,573 --> 00:40:56,733
Speaker 3: I would just say one word of caution, you cannot

688
00:40:56,853 --> 00:41:02,493
Speaker 3: copy Switzerland because Switzerland has grown like this over centuries literally,

689
00:41:02,973 --> 00:41:06,653
Speaker 3: and there are some structural elements of the Swiss experience

690
00:41:06,653 --> 00:41:10,613
Speaker 3: that you can't replicate here either. So, for example, in Switzerland,

691
00:41:10,933 --> 00:41:13,693
Speaker 3: you have a society that is maybe not polarized, but

692
00:41:13,773 --> 00:41:18,453
Speaker 3: definitely fragmented. So you have German speakers, you have French speakers,

693
00:41:18,533 --> 00:41:21,693
Speaker 3: Italian speakers, and Romance speakers, so you've got four languages

694
00:41:21,693 --> 00:41:25,173
Speaker 3: in the country. You have different religious affiliations, so you've

695
00:41:25,213 --> 00:41:28,573
Speaker 3: got strong Catholic parties still in strong Protestant parts, and

696
00:41:28,613 --> 00:41:31,933
Speaker 3: then you've got other who are not even Christian at all.

697
00:41:32,573 --> 00:41:35,013
Speaker 3: And then of course you've got the typical political divisions

698
00:41:35,173 --> 00:41:38,973
Speaker 3: left wing, right wing, centrist, green, whatever, and so you

699
00:41:39,053 --> 00:41:42,053
Speaker 3: put all of these different identities together and what you

700
00:41:42,133 --> 00:41:44,653
Speaker 3: have is a country that is fragmented in so many

701
00:41:44,693 --> 00:41:48,813
Speaker 3: different lines. Again, sounds like a recipe for disaster, but actually,

702
00:41:48,853 --> 00:41:51,013
Speaker 3: in a Swiss case, what it has done is it

703
00:41:51,093 --> 00:41:54,733
Speaker 3: is ensured that things are decided locally because you could

704
00:41:54,733 --> 00:41:57,093
Speaker 3: never find agreement among all of them at a central level.

705
00:41:57,853 --> 00:42:02,613
Speaker 3: And that has actually created a system of political governance

706
00:42:03,133 --> 00:42:06,053
Speaker 3: that has worked extremely well for Switzerland. But it's really

707
00:42:06,093 --> 00:42:08,733
Speaker 3: based on these factors. When you look at New Zealand,

708
00:42:08,813 --> 00:42:13,253
Speaker 3: yes we have different ethnic clients, but probably not quite

709
00:42:13,293 --> 00:42:16,173
Speaker 3: to the degree that the Swiss habits as a totally

710
00:42:16,213 --> 00:42:19,733
Speaker 3: fragmented society. And nevertheless, as I said, it is a

711
00:42:19,773 --> 00:42:21,693
Speaker 3: system worth learning from, and.

712
00:42:21,653 --> 00:42:23,613
Speaker 2: It's probably not the only one, but it's certainly a

713
00:42:23,693 --> 00:42:26,853
Speaker 2: very a very good one. So while we're talking about

714
00:42:26,853 --> 00:42:33,813
Speaker 2: the makeup of a country, migration, immigration is a very

715
00:42:33,853 --> 00:42:34,453
Speaker 2: important thing.

716
00:42:34,493 --> 00:42:34,613
Speaker 3: Now.

717
00:42:34,653 --> 00:42:37,053
Speaker 2: I read something a little earlier this morning, before we

718
00:42:37,413 --> 00:42:41,093
Speaker 2: before we sat down to talk. I read that the

719
00:42:41,213 --> 00:42:45,413
Speaker 2: level of migration looks like it's going to be maintained

720
00:42:46,213 --> 00:42:49,613
Speaker 2: for the foreseeable future. Now, I've got a couple of

721
00:42:49,933 --> 00:42:53,333
Speaker 2: back questions off that one I've been asking for a while,

722
00:42:53,453 --> 00:42:56,013
Speaker 2: just throwing it out, rather than asking one hundred and

723
00:42:56,013 --> 00:42:58,453
Speaker 2: forty thousand people that came into this country last year,

724
00:42:58,933 --> 00:43:02,053
Speaker 2: where did they come from, what qualifications did they have?

725
00:43:02,173 --> 00:43:06,213
Speaker 2: What contribution to the country can they possibly make? Because

726
00:43:06,253 --> 00:43:10,013
Speaker 2: I'm a believer in the fact that a country is

727
00:43:10,533 --> 00:43:13,853
Speaker 2: and should have control of who comes into it, and

728
00:43:13,893 --> 00:43:16,733
Speaker 2: they should be people that are worthy of it, who

729
00:43:16,893 --> 00:43:20,013
Speaker 2: can contribute to the country and the rest of the population.

730
00:43:21,573 --> 00:43:23,373
Speaker 2: And I'm certainly aware that there are a lot of

731
00:43:23,413 --> 00:43:25,813
Speaker 2: people here who can't you say.

732
00:43:27,573 --> 00:43:29,893
Speaker 3: I say that I have asked myself exactly the same

733
00:43:29,933 --> 00:43:32,493
Speaker 3: question and passed it on to our colic Bryce Wilkinson

734
00:43:32,973 --> 00:43:34,973
Speaker 3: a few weeks ago, and I asked Bryce to actually

735
00:43:35,013 --> 00:43:37,653
Speaker 3: look into these migration statistics and tell me who's coming,

736
00:43:38,293 --> 00:43:40,933
Speaker 3: because I had the same look at the statistics that

737
00:43:41,013 --> 00:43:43,333
Speaker 3: you probably had, and I thought, well, that's extraordinary. We

738
00:43:43,373 --> 00:43:47,173
Speaker 3: had a net loss of fifty thousand New Zealand citizens

739
00:43:47,173 --> 00:43:50,173
Speaker 3: to Australia, and at the same time we had a

740
00:43:50,213 --> 00:43:53,293
Speaker 3: net migration intake of one hundred and forty thousand. So,

741
00:43:53,333 --> 00:43:55,093
Speaker 3: by the way, these are net figures. I mean, there

742
00:43:55,133 --> 00:43:57,453
Speaker 3: are way more people arriving, but there are also people leaving.

743
00:43:57,453 --> 00:44:00,373
Speaker 3: But the net intake is one hundred and forty and

744
00:44:00,613 --> 00:44:03,293
Speaker 3: I wanted to know, actually, how does this work. You

745
00:44:03,333 --> 00:44:07,213
Speaker 3: occasionally read stories in the newspapers where they say this

746
00:44:07,253 --> 00:44:10,853
Speaker 3: is a massive net brain drain. So we're losing our

747
00:44:10,853 --> 00:44:14,253
Speaker 3: best qualified people and they are taking over across the

748
00:44:14,333 --> 00:44:17,013
Speaker 3: tessment to have a new career in Australia, and at

749
00:44:17,013 --> 00:44:20,293
Speaker 3: the same time we're getting relatively poorly qualified migrants in.

750
00:44:20,853 --> 00:44:23,973
Speaker 3: And so what we actually have as a net movement

751
00:44:24,013 --> 00:44:26,933
Speaker 3: as a net brain drain. And Bryce is looking into

752
00:44:26,933 --> 00:44:29,053
Speaker 3: this right now, but I haven't got the final figures

753
00:44:29,053 --> 00:44:31,933
Speaker 3: from him yet, but from everything that he has told

754
00:44:31,973 --> 00:44:36,013
Speaker 3: me so far, it does look, indeed like the loss

755
00:44:36,013 --> 00:44:38,373
Speaker 3: of skills is there and we are not getting the

756
00:44:38,373 --> 00:44:42,053
Speaker 3: same qualifications back into the country. Bryce is also looking

757
00:44:42,093 --> 00:44:46,453
Speaker 3: into the source of our new migrants and memory I

758
00:44:46,493 --> 00:44:50,093
Speaker 3: think in the last year the number of migrants from

759
00:44:50,333 --> 00:44:53,493
Speaker 3: European countries was I think only twelve percent of the total,

760
00:44:54,093 --> 00:44:56,813
Speaker 3: and the majority, the vast majority of our migrants now

761
00:44:57,013 --> 00:45:00,773
Speaker 3: are originating from Asian countries, and I mean, that seems

762
00:45:00,813 --> 00:45:03,333
Speaker 3: to be the experience anyway when you're looking around, especially

763
00:45:03,373 --> 00:45:08,133
Speaker 3: Auckland Auguland is slowly turning into a more ethnically Asian

764
00:45:08,133 --> 00:45:10,573
Speaker 3: sy team. It's not the same, of course in other

765
00:45:10,613 --> 00:45:12,973
Speaker 3: parts of the country, and especially the South Island is

766
00:45:12,973 --> 00:45:15,173
Speaker 3: still a bit of a different story. But there seems

767
00:45:15,173 --> 00:45:18,733
Speaker 3: to be definitely a changing ethnic composition of parts of

768
00:45:18,733 --> 00:45:22,493
Speaker 3: the country and as also from our early research, a

769
00:45:22,653 --> 00:45:25,213
Speaker 3: change in the skill set of the population that is

770
00:45:25,613 --> 00:45:27,533
Speaker 3: linked to our migration patterns.

771
00:45:28,093 --> 00:45:32,693
Speaker 2: It's not the race, it's the it's the culture that

772
00:45:32,893 --> 00:45:37,133
Speaker 2: I mean, I've maintained for a long time. I'm not

773
00:45:37,173 --> 00:45:40,613
Speaker 2: a racist, but I am certainly a culturalist. If you

774
00:45:41,213 --> 00:45:44,293
Speaker 2: if you if you put people together from alien cultures

775
00:45:44,933 --> 00:45:48,573
Speaker 2: that have a history of not fitting, then taking them

776
00:45:48,573 --> 00:45:52,133
Speaker 2: in is something not to be not to be encouraged.

777
00:45:53,653 --> 00:45:55,693
Speaker 3: You can throw can I can I can I respond

778
00:45:55,693 --> 00:46:01,133
Speaker 3: to that? Yeah, I think I'm going a long way

779
00:46:01,413 --> 00:46:04,653
Speaker 3: with you on that one. In fact, I think we

780
00:46:04,693 --> 00:46:08,333
Speaker 3: should probably not talk about a multicultural society. We should

781
00:46:08,533 --> 00:46:11,413
Speaker 3: talk about a multi ethnic society, and that's a different thing.

782
00:46:12,253 --> 00:46:15,733
Speaker 3: So I did write a short paper for the Australian

783
00:46:15,733 --> 00:46:19,613
Speaker 3: Productivity Commission when I worked there arguing that actually, when

784
00:46:19,613 --> 00:46:23,853
Speaker 3: you're looking at Australia, lots of Australians are claiming that

785
00:46:23,853 --> 00:46:27,173
Speaker 3: Australia is a multicultural society, and I actually, no, it

786
00:46:27,253 --> 00:46:30,653
Speaker 3: isn't it is a multi ethnic society because there is one,

787
00:46:30,813 --> 00:46:33,813
Speaker 3: or at least at the time, there was one Australian

788
00:46:33,853 --> 00:46:36,213
Speaker 3: culture where people are told, no matter where you're from,

789
00:46:36,733 --> 00:46:40,933
Speaker 3: you leave all that baggage behind. You become Australian, you

790
00:46:40,973 --> 00:46:43,373
Speaker 3: become one of us. You live in the suburbs, your

791
00:46:43,453 --> 00:46:46,093
Speaker 3: kids will be intermarry with each other, and after two

792
00:46:46,213 --> 00:46:51,133
Speaker 3: or three generations you will be basically indistinguishable from anyone

793
00:46:51,133 --> 00:46:53,253
Speaker 3: else in this country because you have all kind of

794
00:46:53,293 --> 00:46:55,973
Speaker 3: lived together, and you've had your kids had children together,

795
00:46:56,493 --> 00:46:58,533
Speaker 3: and therefore you become Australian. And by the way, on

796
00:46:58,653 --> 00:47:01,213
Speaker 3: arrival will make you sign an Australian value statement where

797
00:47:01,213 --> 00:47:03,973
Speaker 3: you sign up to our basic roots. And so I

798
00:47:04,093 --> 00:47:07,293
Speaker 3: thought this whole idea of Australian multiculturalism was a misnomal

799
00:47:07,693 --> 00:47:10,853
Speaker 3: Becauseustralian culture, at least at the time I wrote this paper,

800
00:47:10,853 --> 00:47:14,213
Speaker 3: I think around twenty nine or ten, it was defined

801
00:47:14,253 --> 00:47:16,373
Speaker 3: that there was such a thing as an Australian culture,

802
00:47:16,813 --> 00:47:20,653
Speaker 3: and then it doesn't matter was ethnic community you belong to.

803
00:47:20,733 --> 00:47:23,173
Speaker 3: You can have your ethnic community and your ethnic identity,

804
00:47:23,533 --> 00:47:26,213
Speaker 3: but the culture was clearly defined as that of a

805
00:47:26,253 --> 00:47:29,613
Speaker 3: Western liberal democracy and I liked that concept. And by

806
00:47:29,613 --> 00:47:32,973
Speaker 3: the way, this was how Australia at least always worked.

807
00:47:33,573 --> 00:47:39,093
Speaker 3: So think back even to the times Australian settlement. I mean,

808
00:47:39,333 --> 00:47:43,173
Speaker 3: Australia got migrants mainly from the United Kingdom, but people

809
00:47:43,173 --> 00:47:45,893
Speaker 3: who in the United Kingdom wouldn't have got on. So

810
00:47:45,933 --> 00:47:49,893
Speaker 3: you got Catholics and Protestants and Irishmen and Englishmen. And

811
00:47:49,933 --> 00:47:52,613
Speaker 3: basically the only way that Australia could work at the

812
00:47:52,653 --> 00:47:55,173
Speaker 3: time was to tell all of them, look, we know

813
00:47:55,253 --> 00:47:57,693
Speaker 3: about your conflicts you had back home, but they belonged

814
00:47:57,733 --> 00:47:59,933
Speaker 3: to where you came from, and you are not allowed

815
00:48:00,213 --> 00:48:04,373
Speaker 3: to parade them around here. Your idea is to become Australian.

816
00:48:04,733 --> 00:48:07,813
Speaker 3: And it's worked again. And after the war, think of

817
00:48:07,853 --> 00:48:11,893
Speaker 3: the Greek migration wave into Australia. I saw statistics at

818
00:48:11,893 --> 00:48:16,813
Speaker 3: the time about the prevalence of Greek orthodox as a

819
00:48:17,013 --> 00:48:21,733
Speaker 3: denomination in Australia, and that basically lasted about two generations

820
00:48:21,733 --> 00:48:24,333
Speaker 3: of Greek migration into Australia and then the integration, they

821
00:48:24,373 --> 00:48:28,413
Speaker 3: became indistinguishable from the rest of society. So I think

822
00:48:28,853 --> 00:48:31,613
Speaker 3: we should really be careful how we are calling these things.

823
00:48:31,693 --> 00:48:34,933
Speaker 3: Is it multiculturalism. I think if it's really multiculturalism and

824
00:48:34,973 --> 00:48:37,333
Speaker 3: you've got different cultures living side by side, it's a

825
00:48:37,373 --> 00:48:42,013
Speaker 3: recipe for disaster. There is something that all people in

826
00:48:42,013 --> 00:48:45,613
Speaker 3: the country should agree on, and these are the foundations

827
00:48:45,653 --> 00:48:48,573
Speaker 3: of society. That we've got equal rights for men and women,

828
00:48:48,973 --> 00:48:51,773
Speaker 3: that we have no problem no matter what sexual orientation

829
00:48:51,893 --> 00:48:54,693
Speaker 3: you have. You can have any religion or none. This

830
00:48:54,813 --> 00:48:57,373
Speaker 3: is all part of living in a free Western society.

831
00:48:57,413 --> 00:48:59,213
Speaker 3: And if you can sign up to that, you're welcome.

832
00:48:59,573 --> 00:49:01,613
Speaker 3: But you are not allowed to bring any other culture

833
00:49:01,653 --> 00:49:04,933
Speaker 3: that is incompatible with these basic values, because that would

834
00:49:04,933 --> 00:49:08,133
Speaker 3: be a recipe for disaster and for driving societies apart.

835
00:49:08,773 --> 00:49:10,653
Speaker 2: So do I take it that you were agreeing with

836
00:49:11,133 --> 00:49:11,813
Speaker 2: as far as I.

837
00:49:11,813 --> 00:49:14,573
Speaker 3: Went, Yes, but I would be careful in how we

838
00:49:14,653 --> 00:49:18,333
Speaker 3: call this. I think this is actually multicultures is a

839
00:49:18,333 --> 00:49:21,253
Speaker 3: bit of misnoma. I think we should talk about multi

840
00:49:21,253 --> 00:49:25,573
Speaker 3: ethnic societies, but with a clear, clearly defined national culture

841
00:49:25,813 --> 00:49:31,213
Speaker 3: which is based on enlightenment, on Western civilization, on the

842
00:49:31,293 --> 00:49:34,013
Speaker 3: rule of law, on property rights, and there are some

843
00:49:34,173 --> 00:49:36,853
Speaker 3: things that I believe should not be subject to debate,

844
00:49:37,693 --> 00:49:41,573
Speaker 3: such as such as the ones that I mentioned. These

845
00:49:41,613 --> 00:49:44,493
Speaker 3: are the basic pillars on which our society rests. And

846
00:49:44,533 --> 00:49:46,653
Speaker 3: then it doesn't matter the color of your skin or

847
00:49:46,653 --> 00:49:49,213
Speaker 3: what you believe. And when you come into the country,

848
00:49:49,253 --> 00:49:51,333
Speaker 3: you basically sign up to that. And the Australians actually

849
00:49:51,373 --> 00:49:54,413
Speaker 3: literally make you sign up to these values by putting

850
00:49:54,533 --> 00:49:57,173
Speaker 3: this Australian value statement to every migrant. You have to

851
00:49:57,173 --> 00:49:59,613
Speaker 3: sign this to get a visa, and that I think

852
00:49:59,653 --> 00:50:03,133
Speaker 3: sends a very clear signal to newcomers that yes you

853
00:50:03,213 --> 00:50:05,653
Speaker 3: have come and yes you're welcome here, but there are

854
00:50:05,693 --> 00:50:08,013
Speaker 3: some basic rules that we would expect you to live by.

855
00:50:08,333 --> 00:50:11,493
Speaker 2: Do you think that is still the same with the

856
00:50:11,493 --> 00:50:14,213
Speaker 2: same success now as it was over the periods that

857
00:50:14,293 --> 00:50:14,773
Speaker 2: you mentioned.

858
00:50:15,733 --> 00:50:18,533
Speaker 3: No, it has changed, and that worries me. But at

859
00:50:18,613 --> 00:50:21,813
Speaker 3: least that's how it was traditionally practiced in Australia, and

860
00:50:21,853 --> 00:50:22,933
Speaker 3: I believe in New Zealand too.

861
00:50:23,053 --> 00:50:25,213
Speaker 2: So where did the practice go wrong?

862
00:50:26,213 --> 00:50:29,573
Speaker 3: The practice goes wrong when people think, oh, there is

863
00:50:29,573 --> 00:50:31,973
Speaker 3: basically an equivalence of cultures, and we can't actually say

864
00:50:32,013 --> 00:50:34,653
Speaker 3: that one culture is better than the other. And maybe

865
00:50:34,653 --> 00:50:36,693
Speaker 3: you can't say that one culture is better than the other,

866
00:50:36,733 --> 00:50:39,933
Speaker 3: but you can definitely define what culture you live under.

867
00:50:40,173 --> 00:50:43,453
Speaker 3: And I think it becomes really difficult and dangerous when

868
00:50:44,333 --> 00:50:46,773
Speaker 3: that is no longer clear, when anything goes because it

869
00:50:46,813 --> 00:50:50,133
Speaker 3: just leads to the segregation of society. And by the way,

870
00:50:50,293 --> 00:50:52,373
Speaker 3: if you want to see an example of where that's

871
00:50:52,413 --> 00:50:55,653
Speaker 3: gone wrong, just look at Europe, look at what's happening

872
00:50:55,693 --> 00:50:58,533
Speaker 3: in France, look at Germany, look at parts of Britain.

873
00:50:58,693 --> 00:51:01,133
Speaker 3: The segregation of society that we see in parts of

874
00:51:01,173 --> 00:51:04,813
Speaker 3: Europe is something that I wouldn't want to see replicated here.

875
00:51:05,053 --> 00:51:07,053
Speaker 2: And I would certainly join you on that.

876
00:51:07,293 --> 00:51:09,053
Speaker 3: By the way, can I say one more thing about that?

877
00:51:09,693 --> 00:51:12,853
Speaker 3: I think it is also in part it's not just

878
00:51:12,853 --> 00:51:15,853
Speaker 3: the fault of the migrants in these countries, looking at

879
00:51:15,853 --> 00:51:19,773
Speaker 3: the German experience that I'm quite familiar with, still, it

880
00:51:19,893 --> 00:51:25,053
Speaker 3: is also a fault of German society of never having

881
00:51:25,253 --> 00:51:28,293
Speaker 3: actually walken up to the fact that Germany is a

882
00:51:28,493 --> 00:51:32,533
Speaker 3: country that attracts migrants. What I have in mind are

883
00:51:32,653 --> 00:51:35,493
Speaker 3: the so called guest workers that started arriving in the

884
00:51:35,573 --> 00:51:39,933
Speaker 3: nineteen fifties, initially from countries like Spain and Italy, and

885
00:51:39,973 --> 00:51:44,453
Speaker 3: then over the years I extended to especially Turkey. So

886
00:51:44,893 --> 00:51:47,933
Speaker 3: these people came in. They were called guest workers, and

887
00:51:48,253 --> 00:51:51,373
Speaker 3: the idea was, as the name suggests, that there are

888
00:51:51,453 --> 00:51:53,733
Speaker 3: guests in the country and after a few years they

889
00:51:53,733 --> 00:51:56,653
Speaker 3: would leave and disappear and go back home to their

890
00:51:56,813 --> 00:51:59,933
Speaker 3: countries where they had come from. And they didn't, and

891
00:51:59,973 --> 00:52:03,053
Speaker 3: in fact they had children and their children had children.

892
00:52:03,093 --> 00:52:07,573
Speaker 3: So suddenly, by the nineteen eighties nineties there was serious

893
00:52:07,613 --> 00:52:10,853
Speaker 3: talk in German of guest workers of the third generation.

894
00:52:11,653 --> 00:52:14,053
Speaker 3: And I think it is ludicrous. If your family has

895
00:52:14,093 --> 00:52:16,413
Speaker 3: been in a country for fifty or sixty years, and

896
00:52:16,493 --> 00:52:20,853
Speaker 3: if you're now the third generation of those so called

897
00:52:20,893 --> 00:52:23,573
Speaker 3: guest workers, you're no longer a guess at that stage

898
00:52:23,573 --> 00:52:26,973
Speaker 3: you should belong to society. But mainstream society had never

899
00:52:27,013 --> 00:52:30,653
Speaker 3: signaled to them that they were supposed to be there

900
00:52:30,693 --> 00:52:33,853
Speaker 3: for the long term, and therefore they were always told, well, actually,

901
00:52:33,973 --> 00:52:35,773
Speaker 3: you're not really one of us, and we don't expect

902
00:52:35,773 --> 00:52:38,253
Speaker 3: you to become one of us, because in the end

903
00:52:38,773 --> 00:52:41,613
Speaker 3: you're guests and we expect you to leave again. And

904
00:52:41,653 --> 00:52:44,853
Speaker 3: I think that was again the wrong policy to take,

905
00:52:44,933 --> 00:52:48,613
Speaker 3: because you would have ideally practiced, for example, what the

906
00:52:48,613 --> 00:52:51,293
Speaker 3: Australians do, where they say, okay, you have arrived now,

907
00:52:51,333 --> 00:52:53,973
Speaker 3: and now we're making sure that you become Australian. In

908
00:52:54,013 --> 00:52:56,133
Speaker 3: the same way, the Germans could have said, actually, you

909
00:52:56,133 --> 00:52:57,893
Speaker 3: have arrived now and we're trying to make sure that

910
00:52:57,933 --> 00:53:01,213
Speaker 3: you actually learned German and become part of mainstream society here.

911
00:53:01,573 --> 00:53:04,133
Speaker 3: But they didn't. They always pretended and kept up this

912
00:53:04,213 --> 00:53:06,773
Speaker 3: fiction that at some stage she would just disappear. And

913
00:53:06,813 --> 00:53:08,853
Speaker 3: while they kept up the fiction, they allowed them to

914
00:53:08,893 --> 00:53:11,933
Speaker 3: form parallel societies. So you've got whole suburbs now of

915
00:53:11,973 --> 00:53:15,453
Speaker 3: German cities where they basically have their parallel infrastructure, where

916
00:53:15,493 --> 00:53:18,453
Speaker 3: everything is Turkish and where you wouldn't find it a

917
00:53:18,453 --> 00:53:21,453
Speaker 3: word of German spoken. What I find interesting, by the way,

918
00:53:21,493 --> 00:53:24,493
Speaker 3: is when you look at this experience, you can find

919
00:53:24,533 --> 00:53:28,533
Speaker 3: that the first generation was perfectly integrated, because that was

920
00:53:28,573 --> 00:53:32,733
Speaker 3: a generation that worked. They find found jobs in the factories,

921
00:53:32,773 --> 00:53:35,253
Speaker 3: they had German colleagues, They learned the language because they

922
00:53:35,253 --> 00:53:37,813
Speaker 3: wanted to interact with their colleagues. And so the first

923
00:53:37,853 --> 00:53:41,973
Speaker 3: generation of Turkish Mirgrants was by some measures better integrated

924
00:53:42,013 --> 00:53:46,173
Speaker 3: than their children and grandchildren are today because mainstream society

925
00:53:46,213 --> 00:53:50,573
Speaker 3: allowed them to segregate and form parallel social structures. And

926
00:53:50,613 --> 00:53:53,173
Speaker 3: again it just shows you what you have to do

927
00:53:53,333 --> 00:53:57,573
Speaker 3: to integrate newcomers. The best form of integration for newcomers

928
00:53:57,653 --> 00:54:00,853
Speaker 3: is through the labor market because it forces people to

929
00:54:00,973 --> 00:54:04,293
Speaker 3: learn the language of their colleagues. It forces them to

930
00:54:04,533 --> 00:54:09,573
Speaker 3: actually pay for their own households, so they're not aligned

931
00:54:09,573 --> 00:54:12,293
Speaker 3: on benefits and in that way they become part of

932
00:54:12,333 --> 00:54:14,853
Speaker 3: mainstream society. Once you give up on that, and once

933
00:54:14,853 --> 00:54:17,973
Speaker 3: you actually push them away out of mainstream society, you

934
00:54:17,973 --> 00:54:20,133
Speaker 3: are asking for trouble down the liner. That's where many

935
00:54:20,173 --> 00:54:21,373
Speaker 3: European countries are.

936
00:54:22,013 --> 00:54:25,733
Speaker 2: You mentioned Switzerland, you mentioned France, and you mentioned Germany

937
00:54:25,773 --> 00:54:28,253
Speaker 2: and Turkey, but you haven't mentioned the UK.

938
00:54:28,773 --> 00:54:31,253
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I've lived in the UK two for four

939
00:54:31,293 --> 00:54:32,933
Speaker 3: and a half years. What do you want to talk about?

940
00:54:33,133 --> 00:54:35,493
Speaker 2: Well, the politics of the UK at the moment, the

941
00:54:35,853 --> 00:54:38,853
Speaker 2: scenario there, what's your interpretation?

942
00:54:39,773 --> 00:54:42,013
Speaker 3: I mean, the real question is actually will the Conservative

943
00:54:42,013 --> 00:54:44,453
Speaker 3: Party survive. It's not a question of whether they might

944
00:54:44,533 --> 00:54:47,253
Speaker 3: win the election. I think that will not happen, but

945
00:54:47,893 --> 00:54:51,253
Speaker 3: it's just a question of how bad that election result

946
00:54:51,373 --> 00:54:54,173
Speaker 3: will be for the Tories after fourteen years in government.

947
00:54:54,333 --> 00:54:57,293
Speaker 2: Can I reimate can I rearrange that how bad it is,

948
00:54:57,333 --> 00:54:59,733
Speaker 2: how bad it will be for the country, not just

949
00:54:59,773 --> 00:55:01,333
Speaker 2: the story party, the country.

950
00:55:01,893 --> 00:55:03,893
Speaker 3: Well, yes, I mean we can take that almost as

951
00:55:03,893 --> 00:55:06,133
Speaker 3: a given that we will have a strong labor government

952
00:55:06,133 --> 00:55:10,093
Speaker 3: with a strong majority in the Commons, but they might

953
00:55:10,133 --> 00:55:13,533
Speaker 3: not even be any meaningful opposition left. So, especially after

954
00:55:13,613 --> 00:55:16,653
Speaker 3: Nigel Farage declared that he's now entering as the new

955
00:55:17,213 --> 00:55:21,493
Speaker 3: leader of Reform, he will probably take enough percentage points

956
00:55:21,533 --> 00:55:25,053
Speaker 3: off the Tories to really reduce the Tories to maybe

957
00:55:25,133 --> 00:55:28,093
Speaker 3: where the Canadian Conservatives were in the nineteen nineties stay

958
00:55:28,173 --> 00:55:31,253
Speaker 3: I think they finished with just two MPs. It might

959
00:55:31,293 --> 00:55:33,573
Speaker 3: not be that bad, but I wouldn't be surprised if

960
00:55:33,573 --> 00:55:35,653
Speaker 3: in the end we just have maybe thirty or forty

961
00:55:35,653 --> 00:55:38,613
Speaker 3: Conservative MPs left. Now he can't really run a proper

962
00:55:38,613 --> 00:55:41,453
Speaker 3: opposition all of that, and they will be crushed by

963
00:55:41,493 --> 00:55:44,373
Speaker 3: perhaps more than five minute Labor MPs. So this will

964
00:55:44,413 --> 00:55:46,973
Speaker 3: be an extraordinary situation that we haven't really hadn't Britain

965
00:55:47,013 --> 00:55:47,773
Speaker 3: for a long time.

966
00:55:48,933 --> 00:55:51,653
Speaker 2: What would be the reaction to it? Do you think?

967
00:55:52,613 --> 00:55:56,773
Speaker 3: Well? I think we will probably see the most left

968
00:55:56,813 --> 00:55:59,093
Speaker 3: wing government that Britain has had in a long time.

969
00:55:59,653 --> 00:56:03,773
Speaker 3: I mean Margaret Thatcher was once asked after leaving office

970
00:56:03,813 --> 00:56:06,933
Speaker 3: what was her biggest achievement, and her response was Tony Blair,

971
00:56:07,773 --> 00:56:12,493
Speaker 3: because she argued that she had actually forced the British

972
00:56:12,613 --> 00:56:15,733
Speaker 3: Labor Party so much to the right to accept most

973
00:56:15,773 --> 00:56:18,773
Speaker 3: of her basic settings of the British economy that it

974
00:56:18,773 --> 00:56:21,133
Speaker 3: didn't really matter that there was a change of government

975
00:56:21,173 --> 00:56:24,133
Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety seven from John Major to Tony Blair

976
00:56:24,253 --> 00:56:27,893
Speaker 3: and Ny Margaret Thatcher was right. But what has happened

977
00:56:28,373 --> 00:56:31,013
Speaker 3: since is, of course that the Labor Party has had

978
00:56:31,253 --> 00:56:34,333
Speaker 3: a massive shift to the left, especially of course previously

979
00:56:34,413 --> 00:56:37,693
Speaker 3: under Jeremy Corbyn as later, but even now with Kiir Starmer.

980
00:56:37,773 --> 00:56:40,093
Speaker 3: It is a far cry from where it used to

981
00:56:40,133 --> 00:56:43,973
Speaker 3: be under Tony Blair and even under Gordon Brown. So

982
00:56:44,053 --> 00:56:45,973
Speaker 3: I think we are now looking at the prospect of

983
00:56:46,013 --> 00:56:50,693
Speaker 3: a seriously left leaning government governing Britain over the next

984
00:56:50,693 --> 00:56:54,773
Speaker 3: five years, and that will be quite a turning point

985
00:56:54,773 --> 00:56:55,253
Speaker 3: for the country.

986
00:56:55,573 --> 00:56:59,293
Speaker 2: Let me ask you a tourism question, given that that's

987
00:56:59,413 --> 00:57:03,173
Speaker 2: the result, and give it six months to a year.

988
00:57:04,013 --> 00:57:07,653
Speaker 2: Based on the experience that we've witnessed with the Mayor

989
00:57:07,813 --> 00:57:11,453
Speaker 2: of London, do you think a parliament of five hundred

990
00:57:11,573 --> 00:57:16,853
Speaker 2: labor labor rights with no opposition would change the country

991
00:57:17,293 --> 00:57:20,493
Speaker 2: enough to say to some of us, at least Britain's

992
00:57:20,493 --> 00:57:21,333
Speaker 2: off the travel list.

993
00:57:22,413 --> 00:57:24,493
Speaker 3: Lloyd might have to do the opposite. And because we

994
00:57:24,533 --> 00:57:26,573
Speaker 3: could see sterling collapse and then your holiday becomes a

995
00:57:26,573 --> 00:57:27,093
Speaker 3: lot cheaper.

996
00:57:29,053 --> 00:57:33,413
Speaker 2: Some people are so selfish, just trying to be a

997
00:57:33,413 --> 00:57:37,333
Speaker 2: little bit optimistic. Though I wasn't referring to you, I

998
00:57:37,373 --> 00:57:40,133
Speaker 2: was referring to the people that you referred to. No,

999
00:57:40,213 --> 00:57:43,893
Speaker 2: it's and I understand that, I understand that completely. But

1000
00:57:44,053 --> 00:57:48,133
Speaker 2: the country itself. Look at what's happened in the United

1001
00:57:48,213 --> 00:57:52,653
Speaker 2: States with the non existent southern border, the amount of

1002
00:57:52,773 --> 00:57:57,253
Speaker 2: crime that exists all across America now from an extra

1003
00:57:57,373 --> 00:58:00,093
Speaker 2: ten or the last figure I heard was twelve million

1004
00:58:00,253 --> 00:58:03,413
Speaker 2: illegals in there just on this occasion in the last

1005
00:58:03,413 --> 00:58:07,853
Speaker 2: three years. The country is very unsafe. Look. I watched

1006
00:58:07,853 --> 00:58:11,573
Speaker 2: a video, short video that somebody took on their camera

1007
00:58:12,253 --> 00:58:14,653
Speaker 2: of a guy in San Francisco the middle of the

1008
00:58:14,773 --> 00:58:18,773
Speaker 2: day walking down what looked like a main street. There

1009
00:58:18,773 --> 00:58:22,093
Speaker 2: weren't a lot of people, about plenty of traffic walking

1010
00:58:22,133 --> 00:58:25,653
Speaker 2: down on main street. Who got jumped on by four

1011
00:58:26,213 --> 00:58:28,773
Speaker 2: It could have even been five I couldn't quite make

1012
00:58:28,813 --> 00:58:32,053
Speaker 2: it out. Gangsters who were dressed in hoodies and the

1013
00:58:32,053 --> 00:58:36,053
Speaker 2: whole thing who kicked the proverbial out of him and

1014
00:58:36,173 --> 00:58:38,613
Speaker 2: took everything he had, jumped in, jumped in their car

1015
00:58:38,613 --> 00:58:42,293
Speaker 2: and drove off the middle of the day.

1016
00:58:42,533 --> 00:58:44,333
Speaker 3: But it could have been Central Auckland.

1017
00:58:43,973 --> 00:58:49,173
Speaker 2: Too, My point exactly if you want, mm hmm yep.

1018
00:58:50,133 --> 00:58:52,253
Speaker 2: But what I was, what I was really relating to,

1019
00:58:52,293 --> 00:58:54,133
Speaker 2: I suppose I was using that as an example to

1020
00:58:54,133 --> 00:58:55,493
Speaker 2: say where London could end up.

1021
00:58:56,493 --> 00:58:59,773
Speaker 3: Sure, and I mean in parts of Britain you probably

1022
00:58:59,773 --> 00:59:04,173
Speaker 3: already have these problems. So yeah, that is a prospect

1023
00:59:04,453 --> 00:59:08,013
Speaker 3: and it won't get much better, or it might get

1024
00:59:08,053 --> 00:59:10,133
Speaker 3: a lot. Boy is actually under that Labor government. But

1025
00:59:10,133 --> 00:59:12,213
Speaker 3: we should probably talk a little bit about the Tories too,

1026
00:59:12,293 --> 00:59:17,013
Speaker 3: because they've been in power for fourteen years and I

1027
00:59:17,053 --> 00:59:21,253
Speaker 3: have now read I like reading comments to newspaper columns

1028
00:59:21,293 --> 00:59:23,133
Speaker 3: from British newspapers because you get a bit of a

1029
00:59:23,173 --> 00:59:25,933
Speaker 3: sense of what their readers think, and especially in the

1030
00:59:26,013 --> 00:59:28,453
Speaker 3: Daily Telegraph, which is one of my favorite papers. I

1031
00:59:28,533 --> 00:59:31,773
Speaker 3: read comments now under practically every article saying things like

1032
00:59:32,253 --> 00:59:35,053
Speaker 3: I'm a lifelong Tory voter and I've had it with

1033
00:59:35,093 --> 00:59:38,693
Speaker 3: that party and I've been voting for the Tories for

1034
00:59:38,693 --> 00:59:41,053
Speaker 3: forty or fifty years, but in this coming election they

1035
00:59:41,053 --> 00:59:45,013
Speaker 3: will not have my vote. The Tory parties fourteen years

1036
00:59:45,013 --> 00:59:48,133
Speaker 3: in office have been disastrous, with few exceptions. I think

1037
00:59:48,133 --> 00:59:51,293
Speaker 3: the one exception being Michael Gove's education reforms is probably

1038
00:59:51,333 --> 00:59:55,653
Speaker 3: the only positive legacy that they're leaving behind. But the

1039
00:59:55,693 --> 00:59:59,453
Speaker 3: rest of those fourteen years, starting with David Cameron and

1040
00:59:59,493 --> 01:00:03,613
Speaker 3: then continuing with Teresa May, then Boris Johnson, List Trusts

1041
01:00:03,773 --> 01:00:07,173
Speaker 3: Bishi Sonak, it's been a disaster for the country. Actually

1042
01:00:07,213 --> 01:00:10,293
Speaker 3: they did nothing. Actually their spending went up. They are

1043
01:00:10,333 --> 01:00:14,973
Speaker 3: spending more than Tony Blair ever did. They didn't do

1044
01:00:15,093 --> 01:00:17,773
Speaker 3: any of the things that they promised. They are still

1045
01:00:17,813 --> 01:00:21,373
Speaker 3: going on with high speed railway links to Birmingham and

1046
01:00:21,413 --> 01:00:28,653
Speaker 3: other places. What is the legacy of the Tory government? Yes,

1047
01:00:28,853 --> 01:00:32,013
Speaker 3: and what was the promise when they started? So they

1048
01:00:32,013 --> 01:00:35,533
Speaker 3: started with all sorts of wonderful marketing slogans under David Cameron.

1049
01:00:35,973 --> 01:00:40,093
Speaker 3: And I mean I worked there until two thousand and

1050
01:00:40,093 --> 01:00:42,693
Speaker 3: eight when Cameron was opposition leader and we were in

1051
01:00:42,733 --> 01:00:45,613
Speaker 3: a thing than quite closely linked to him, and even

1052
01:00:45,653 --> 01:00:48,173
Speaker 3: at the time I thought, well this is all a

1053
01:00:48,173 --> 01:00:51,133
Speaker 3: lot of marketing talk, but not much substance because they

1054
01:00:51,133 --> 01:00:54,373
Speaker 3: were not actually talking much policy anymore these days. They

1055
01:00:54,413 --> 01:00:57,453
Speaker 3: were focused on just rebuilding the image of the party.

1056
01:00:57,493 --> 01:01:00,373
Speaker 3: They gave it a new logo. Gone was market such

1057
01:01:00,413 --> 01:01:02,853
Speaker 3: as torture Freedom, and it was replaced by a left

1058
01:01:02,933 --> 01:01:07,973
Speaker 3: leaning tree that children could have painted. It was all

1059
01:01:08,693 --> 01:01:10,933
Speaker 3: it was all appearance, it was all pr it was

1060
01:01:10,973 --> 01:01:15,933
Speaker 3: all marketing, and I think basically that's what gutted the

1061
01:01:16,013 --> 01:01:19,493
Speaker 3: Tory Party and led to them spending fourteen years in

1062
01:01:19,533 --> 01:01:22,373
Speaker 3: government not really knowing who they are anymore. And I

1063
01:01:22,453 --> 01:01:24,413
Speaker 3: see that as a problem not just for the Tory

1064
01:01:24,453 --> 01:01:27,093
Speaker 3: Party but for many center right parties around the world,

1065
01:01:27,573 --> 01:01:30,773
Speaker 3: where they have actually put the slogans ahead of decent

1066
01:01:30,813 --> 01:01:32,533
Speaker 3: policy development. And that worries me.

1067
01:01:33,253 --> 01:01:36,533
Speaker 2: It should worry all of us. What should worry all

1068
01:01:36,573 --> 01:01:41,333
Speaker 2: of us is the decline of government in practically every

1069
01:01:41,853 --> 01:01:47,333
Speaker 2: Anglo country, namely one where they're booming, namely one where

1070
01:01:47,413 --> 01:01:48,773
Speaker 2: everything is going really well.

1071
01:01:49,213 --> 01:01:51,093
Speaker 3: And not just Anglo countries. I can tell you that

1072
01:01:51,133 --> 01:01:54,333
Speaker 3: the situation is not much better, if at all, on

1073
01:01:54,453 --> 01:01:56,933
Speaker 3: the continent in Europe. So I think it's a decline

1074
01:01:56,933 --> 01:02:01,693
Speaker 3: that we see in governance or government across developed countries

1075
01:02:01,733 --> 01:02:05,733
Speaker 3: around the world, and it is frightening, as absolutely frightening.

1076
01:02:06,053 --> 01:02:08,213
Speaker 2: I've got a couple of books. I can't see that

1077
01:02:08,493 --> 01:02:10,213
Speaker 2: of them at the moment, but I've got a couple

1078
01:02:10,213 --> 01:02:12,813
Speaker 2: of books that I've had for some time. One I

1079
01:02:12,853 --> 01:02:17,773
Speaker 2: remember was published in nineteen ninety seven, Why the West

1080
01:02:18,453 --> 01:02:25,093
Speaker 2: Leads for Now, and the other one was even more provoking.

1081
01:02:27,493 --> 01:02:31,573
Speaker 2: It's interesting to keep books that make predictions to see

1082
01:02:31,773 --> 01:02:34,933
Speaker 2: just how the authors have, how successful they've been, how

1083
01:02:34,933 --> 01:02:36,853
Speaker 2: good they are, and whether they're worth willing and you

1084
01:02:36,973 --> 01:02:41,013
Speaker 2: learn you actually learn something from the approach that authors

1085
01:02:41,093 --> 01:02:44,413
Speaker 2: take when you when you see a history of correct

1086
01:02:44,453 --> 01:02:48,613
Speaker 2: predictions or even one major one. We don't teach history

1087
01:02:48,613 --> 01:02:50,733
Speaker 2: in schools, and here we are back on education while

1088
01:02:50,773 --> 01:02:55,213
Speaker 2: I am so, let's give it a miss. RBNZ governor

1089
01:02:55,293 --> 01:02:59,773
Speaker 2: says eventually monetary policy will win the day end quote,

1090
01:03:00,013 --> 01:03:04,373
Speaker 2: beating ordinary kiwi's and blames overseas factors. On the very

1091
01:03:04,373 --> 01:03:07,053
Speaker 2: same day, inflation fell in the UK to two point

1092
01:03:07,173 --> 01:03:12,053
Speaker 2: three percent. Now that's Robert McCulloch from the University of Auckland,

1093
01:03:12,093 --> 01:03:15,653
Speaker 2: but there are others making similar comments. There's been a

1094
01:03:15,653 --> 01:03:18,573
Speaker 2: bit of a bit of a sour taste in the

1095
01:03:18,613 --> 01:03:23,333
Speaker 2: mouth lately from the governor of the Reserve Bank, and

1096
01:03:23,373 --> 01:03:24,733
Speaker 2: you are well familiar with it.

1097
01:03:25,253 --> 01:03:28,933
Speaker 3: You say, well, at a time when we have our

1098
01:03:29,693 --> 01:03:34,213
Speaker 3: tradeables inflation running at relatively law levels and un non

1099
01:03:34,333 --> 01:03:38,213
Speaker 3: tradable inflation still running it close to six percent, I

1100
01:03:38,253 --> 01:03:42,333
Speaker 3: think it would be wiser for the Reserve Bank governor

1101
01:03:42,373 --> 01:03:45,613
Speaker 3: to just acknowledge his own contributions, or that are the

1102
01:03:45,653 --> 01:03:49,173
Speaker 3: contributions of his bank that he leads towards some our

1103
01:03:49,213 --> 01:03:52,213
Speaker 3: inflation crisis. Because a lot of our inflation problems in

1104
01:03:52,213 --> 01:03:55,293
Speaker 3: New Zealand are homemade. They are still the result of

1105
01:03:55,333 --> 01:03:58,573
Speaker 3: the extraordinary amount of money that the Reserve Bank created

1106
01:03:58,653 --> 01:04:03,293
Speaker 3: during the OVID years fifty five billion dollars that flooded

1107
01:04:03,293 --> 01:04:06,813
Speaker 3: our markets, that drove up domestic prices, and I think

1108
01:04:06,853 --> 01:04:09,653
Speaker 3: that is the main story behind. On the other thing,

1109
01:04:09,773 --> 01:04:13,853
Speaker 3: where the Reserve Bank should probably just acknowledge some responsibilities

1110
01:04:13,893 --> 01:04:17,013
Speaker 3: and the enormous losses to the taxpayer that they have

1111
01:04:17,333 --> 01:04:21,973
Speaker 3: caused in pursuing these policies. So we are currently looking

1112
01:04:22,013 --> 01:04:25,013
Speaker 3: at about eleven billion dollars that the taxpayer has to

1113
01:04:25,053 --> 01:04:28,853
Speaker 3: spend on recapitalizing the Reserve Bank of New Zealand because

1114
01:04:28,933 --> 01:04:32,853
Speaker 3: for all the money printing activities, the Reserve Bank was

1115
01:04:32,893 --> 01:04:36,533
Speaker 3: indemnified from by the Minister of Finance at the beginning,

1116
01:04:36,573 --> 01:04:39,773
Speaker 3: meaning that any losses that they incurred could be passed

1117
01:04:39,773 --> 01:04:42,213
Speaker 3: on to the taxpayer. And that's what's happening right now.

1118
01:04:42,813 --> 01:04:46,253
Speaker 3: So the Reserve Bank's performance actually in these COVID years,

1119
01:04:46,373 --> 01:04:51,013
Speaker 3: I think deserves much closer stroordiny and I think maya

1120
01:04:51,093 --> 01:04:54,173
Speaker 3: kulpa from the Reserve Bank governor would be appropriate.

1121
01:04:54,973 --> 01:04:58,413
Speaker 2: Can I just raise with you the fact that the

1122
01:04:58,453 --> 01:05:01,733
Speaker 2: Reserve Bank seems to have turned itself into a forest,

1123
01:05:01,933 --> 01:05:06,533
Speaker 2: or at least the start of a forest, that other

1124
01:05:06,613 --> 01:05:10,413
Speaker 2: aspects of the banks, I should probably say the governor's

1125
01:05:10,453 --> 01:05:15,773
Speaker 2: approach to life questionable for a Reserve Bank governor.

1126
01:05:16,773 --> 01:05:20,893
Speaker 3: Yes, you're probably referring to the articles that we saw

1127
01:05:21,613 --> 01:05:23,933
Speaker 3: the end of last week about the conflict that we've

1128
01:05:23,933 --> 01:05:28,573
Speaker 3: had with the Reserve Bank here the initiative. Well, it

1129
01:05:28,653 --> 01:05:33,333
Speaker 3: was all an unfortunate episode, an incident that played out

1130
01:05:33,453 --> 01:05:36,333
Speaker 3: when our chair Roger part Which wrote a column for

1131
01:05:36,373 --> 01:05:39,773
Speaker 3: the New Zealand Herald in which he once again dealt

1132
01:05:39,813 --> 01:05:44,973
Speaker 3: with capital requirements for banks. And that's a technical disagreement

1133
01:05:44,973 --> 01:05:46,853
Speaker 3: that we've had with the Reserve Bank for many years.

1134
01:05:47,533 --> 01:05:51,533
Speaker 3: Roger wrote a column and once again asked whether the

1135
01:05:51,573 --> 01:05:54,893
Speaker 3: Reserve Bank's policies on prudential regulations the regulations for the

1136
01:05:54,933 --> 01:06:01,133
Speaker 3: banks were properly argued. And I would have thought, under

1137
01:06:01,133 --> 01:06:03,933
Speaker 3: normal circumstances, it was such a mild column. There was

1138
01:06:03,933 --> 01:06:08,333
Speaker 3: nothing polemical about it. Nothing should have followed from it. Instead,

1139
01:06:08,533 --> 01:06:11,613
Speaker 3: what happened, and it was revealed by Jeanne Tripsheney in

1140
01:06:11,653 --> 01:06:16,133
Speaker 3: the Herald. The Reserve Banks governor then brought Nima to

1141
01:06:16,293 --> 01:06:19,213
Speaker 3: the CEOs and chairs of our largest banks and complained

1142
01:06:19,413 --> 01:06:22,773
Speaker 3: about that column and basically told the banks you are

1143
01:06:22,813 --> 01:06:25,573
Speaker 3: members of the New Zealand Initiative and why are you

1144
01:06:25,693 --> 01:06:29,493
Speaker 3: supporting an organization that writes columns for the Herald like that?

1145
01:06:30,533 --> 01:06:32,893
Speaker 3: And he wrote a letter to the editor which was

1146
01:06:32,973 --> 01:06:36,853
Speaker 3: some then printed in the New Zealand Herald last Saturday,

1147
01:06:37,973 --> 01:06:41,613
Speaker 3: and he made the same points publicly as well, referring

1148
01:06:41,973 --> 01:06:44,293
Speaker 3: back to the membership of the banks of the Initiative.

1149
01:06:44,933 --> 01:06:46,973
Speaker 3: And when I saw all of that and read this

1150
01:06:47,053 --> 01:06:50,053
Speaker 3: in a herald, I was alarmed because I thought, first

1151
01:06:50,093 --> 01:06:52,733
Speaker 3: of all, you're the Reserve Bank governor. You should be

1152
01:06:53,093 --> 01:06:56,253
Speaker 3: able to live with criticism, and especially if it's not polemical.

1153
01:06:56,293 --> 01:06:59,333
Speaker 3: It was not personal, it was just a disagreement on

1154
01:06:59,453 --> 01:07:02,573
Speaker 3: a policy matter, So why are you not able to

1155
01:07:02,613 --> 01:07:06,653
Speaker 3: live with that level of public debate? And secondly, and

1156
01:07:06,693 --> 01:07:10,613
Speaker 3: perhaps was disturbing. The banks that he sent the letter

1157
01:07:10,653 --> 01:07:12,573
Speaker 3: to are the same banks, of course, that are being

1158
01:07:12,613 --> 01:07:15,853
Speaker 3: regulated by the Reserve Bank, So to send them a

1159
01:07:15,933 --> 01:07:20,573
Speaker 3: letter and tell them, look, we've just been criticized by

1160
01:07:20,573 --> 01:07:23,493
Speaker 3: the initiative. You are members of that initiative. And then

1161
01:07:23,653 --> 01:07:25,973
Speaker 3: between the lines, do you think it's a wise idea

1162
01:07:26,013 --> 01:07:27,973
Speaker 3: to be members of the initiative when they're writing articles

1163
01:07:28,013 --> 01:07:31,613
Speaker 3: that are so critical of us? I thought that at

1164
01:07:32,733 --> 01:07:36,533
Speaker 3: a sour aftertaste, a Reserve Bank governor shouldn't behave like

1165
01:07:36,653 --> 01:07:39,453
Speaker 3: But I mean, you have to be careful when you're

1166
01:07:39,693 --> 01:07:42,853
Speaker 3: regulating an industry, when you're then telling the industry what

1167
01:07:42,933 --> 01:07:45,373
Speaker 3: they have to do things that you are actually not

1168
01:07:45,453 --> 01:07:48,173
Speaker 3: responsible for. I mean, he's not regulating them for the

1169
01:07:48,293 --> 01:07:52,333
Speaker 3: articles that we write. And therefore I was concerned. And

1170
01:07:52,373 --> 01:07:56,533
Speaker 3: then on Friday last week, the Minister of Finance revealed

1171
01:07:56,693 --> 01:07:59,453
Speaker 3: in a press conference that I had sent her and

1172
01:07:59,533 --> 01:08:01,573
Speaker 3: the chair of the Reserve Bank a letter to just

1173
01:08:01,613 --> 01:08:05,053
Speaker 3: make these points and now we will see what happens

1174
01:08:05,053 --> 01:08:07,133
Speaker 3: and what follows after that. But I was not impressed

1175
01:08:07,173 --> 01:08:09,533
Speaker 3: by the approach taken by the Reserve Bank on that matter.

1176
01:08:09,973 --> 01:08:12,853
Speaker 2: There was a column headline five or six years ago

1177
01:08:12,933 --> 01:08:16,413
Speaker 2: in the Herald referring to the Governor of the Reserve

1178
01:08:16,493 --> 01:08:19,613
Speaker 2: Bank genius or zombie. Is it too early to say?

1179
01:08:20,773 --> 01:08:24,813
Speaker 3: I wouldn't characterize him with either of these terms. I

1180
01:08:24,853 --> 01:08:27,133
Speaker 3: want him to do his job and I want him

1181
01:08:27,133 --> 01:08:29,613
Speaker 3: to do his job in accordance with the Reserve Bank

1182
01:08:29,653 --> 01:08:32,573
Speaker 3: of New Zealand Act twenty twenty one and with the

1183
01:08:32,613 --> 01:08:36,213
Speaker 3: Reserve Bank's own Court of Conduct. It's a beautiful document,

1184
01:08:36,253 --> 01:08:38,093
Speaker 3: by the way. When you read the Court of Conduct,

1185
01:08:38,253 --> 01:08:40,893
Speaker 3: it says we treat everybody with respect, we are all

1186
01:08:40,933 --> 01:08:47,573
Speaker 3: for big debates, we take on board alternative viewpoints. Basically,

1187
01:08:47,613 --> 01:08:51,813
Speaker 3: we're open minded and we are not engaging in name calling. Roughly,

1188
01:08:51,853 --> 01:08:54,253
Speaker 3: that's what the Court of conducts as well. Then I

1189
01:08:54,253 --> 01:08:56,493
Speaker 3: would like to see the Reserve Bank behave like that,

1190
01:08:57,533 --> 01:09:01,133
Speaker 3: and by actually putting pressure on members of the Initiative

1191
01:09:01,213 --> 01:09:06,133
Speaker 3: to effectively withdraw their membership from an organization that criticizes

1192
01:09:06,173 --> 01:09:08,453
Speaker 3: the Reserve Bank. I don't think it complies with their

1193
01:09:08,493 --> 01:09:12,493
Speaker 3: own court of conduct and actually should be unacceptable in

1194
01:09:13,053 --> 01:09:17,253
Speaker 3: a rule of law based democracy to have a regulator

1195
01:09:17,293 --> 01:09:17,893
Speaker 3: behave like.

1196
01:09:17,853 --> 01:09:23,693
Speaker 2: That well spoken. So finally, last question, growth and productivity.

1197
01:09:23,973 --> 01:09:26,493
Speaker 2: If you were in a position to wave your magic

1198
01:09:26,533 --> 01:09:30,533
Speaker 2: wand what would what move would you make to aid

1199
01:09:30,533 --> 01:09:32,173
Speaker 2: and abid those two things?

1200
01:09:32,773 --> 01:09:36,573
Speaker 3: Even with a magic wand, it wouldn't be easy because

1201
01:09:36,693 --> 01:09:41,213
Speaker 3: some productivity draw are things that result from getting your

1202
01:09:41,213 --> 01:09:44,693
Speaker 3: whole set of policies right. And currently I think we've

1203
01:09:44,693 --> 01:09:47,093
Speaker 3: got a whole set of policies wrong. So it will

1204
01:09:47,133 --> 01:09:50,853
Speaker 3: take more than just one abracadabra until we get the

1205
01:09:50,853 --> 01:09:54,013
Speaker 3: economy growing again. But if I could just single out

1206
01:09:54,013 --> 01:09:56,533
Speaker 3: a couple of things I would like to do immediately.

1207
01:09:57,133 --> 01:09:59,973
Speaker 3: The first thing I would do, I would open New

1208
01:10:00,053 --> 01:10:03,053
Speaker 3: Zealand to international capital. We are one of the most

1209
01:10:03,053 --> 01:10:06,053
Speaker 3: restrictive countries when it comes to capital imports to foreign

1210
01:10:06,173 --> 01:10:09,573
Speaker 3: liked investment, and we are shooting our in the foot

1211
01:10:09,893 --> 01:10:12,853
Speaker 3: because we need that capital and we need that investment

1212
01:10:12,973 --> 01:10:15,453
Speaker 3: not just because we need the money, but we need

1213
01:10:15,493 --> 01:10:18,373
Speaker 3: to be linked into international value chains. We need to

1214
01:10:18,413 --> 01:10:21,653
Speaker 3: have access to these value chains in order to lift

1215
01:10:21,653 --> 01:10:23,853
Speaker 3: on productivity and by the way, once we've got the

1216
01:10:23,853 --> 01:10:28,093
Speaker 3: capital here, that will create growth, opportunities, jobs, And if

1217
01:10:28,093 --> 01:10:29,573
Speaker 3: you want to see an example of a country that

1218
01:10:29,653 --> 01:10:32,773
Speaker 3: works along those lines, look at Ireland. They became rich

1219
01:10:32,973 --> 01:10:36,213
Speaker 3: out of foreign direct investment, and I think we should

1220
01:10:36,253 --> 01:10:39,333
Speaker 3: be trying to do the same. And that means basically

1221
01:10:39,333 --> 01:10:42,693
Speaker 3: getting rid of Overseas Investment Office and our Overseas Investment Act.

1222
01:10:43,253 --> 01:10:45,293
Speaker 3: If you want to keep any of this just limited

1223
01:10:45,333 --> 01:10:49,853
Speaker 3: to national security concerns, but otherwise open the floodgates to capital,

1224
01:10:49,853 --> 01:10:53,133
Speaker 3: that's what New Zealand needs. The second thing I would do,

1225
01:10:53,173 --> 01:10:54,973
Speaker 3: and that links us back to the discussion we had

1226
01:10:55,013 --> 01:11:00,533
Speaker 3: earlier on Switzerland. I would love to abolish or counsel

1227
01:11:00,693 --> 01:11:03,573
Speaker 3: rights system and replace it with a local income tax.

1228
01:11:04,773 --> 01:11:08,173
Speaker 3: The way that would work for growth and productivity is

1229
01:11:08,373 --> 01:11:12,293
Speaker 3: input because currently councils will always get the same amount

1230
01:11:12,373 --> 01:11:16,333
Speaker 3: of tax revenue council rates revenue, because it doesn't matter

1231
01:11:16,373 --> 01:11:20,653
Speaker 3: whether the council performs, whether the council's economy performs, whether

1232
01:11:20,693 --> 01:11:23,533
Speaker 3: the businesses in the council's area are successful, you will

1233
01:11:23,573 --> 01:11:26,453
Speaker 3: always get the same revenue regardless. There are no incentives

1234
01:11:26,493 --> 01:11:29,733
Speaker 3: for the council to be good for its local economy

1235
01:11:29,813 --> 01:11:33,253
Speaker 3: under that system. Once you replace this with a local

1236
01:11:33,293 --> 01:11:37,453
Speaker 3: income tax, you get a completely definit incentive structure. Then

1237
01:11:37,613 --> 01:11:40,733
Speaker 3: a council would get more tax revenue if people have

1238
01:11:40,813 --> 01:11:44,493
Speaker 3: higher incomes, if they generate more growth, if they generate

1239
01:11:44,533 --> 01:11:48,933
Speaker 3: more wealth. And therefore, I think once you change the

1240
01:11:49,013 --> 01:11:52,733
Speaker 3: system towards a Swiss tile local income tax, you will

1241
01:11:52,733 --> 01:11:55,573
Speaker 3: see councils bending over backwards to make it possible for

1242
01:11:55,693 --> 01:11:59,813
Speaker 3: companies to grow and invest. I have some very practical

1243
01:11:59,853 --> 01:12:03,053
Speaker 3: examples in mind. I recently spoke to a CEO of

1244
01:12:03,093 --> 01:12:05,733
Speaker 3: a small company that tried to build a small factory,

1245
01:12:06,373 --> 01:12:08,613
Speaker 3: and they've been trying that since twenty eighteen. Cost the

1246
01:12:08,653 --> 01:12:12,373
Speaker 3: Council's been an absolute nightmare. So practically every step along

1247
01:12:12,413 --> 01:12:14,813
Speaker 3: the way, the council asks for twenty more clarifications than

1248
01:12:14,853 --> 01:12:17,413
Speaker 3: each time they ask for twenty clarifications, you spend an

1249
01:12:17,493 --> 01:12:20,653
Speaker 3: average of ten thousand dollars on each bullet point answering

1250
01:12:20,653 --> 01:12:24,573
Speaker 3: it with consultants. Now, imagine the council at an incentive

1251
01:12:24,613 --> 01:12:27,493
Speaker 3: an interest in getting this company this new factory off

1252
01:12:27,493 --> 01:12:30,973
Speaker 3: the ground. I think the council would ask fewer questions,

1253
01:12:30,973 --> 01:12:33,813
Speaker 3: they would streamline the whole process because they would have

1254
01:12:33,813 --> 01:12:35,973
Speaker 3: an interest in getting the factory up and running so

1255
01:12:36,013 --> 01:12:40,373
Speaker 3: that they could generate text revenue for the council. And

1256
01:12:40,413 --> 01:12:41,973
Speaker 3: I think in that way we would create a lot

1257
01:12:42,013 --> 01:12:44,573
Speaker 3: more growth, would probably create a lot more housing as well.

1258
01:12:45,213 --> 01:12:48,973
Speaker 3: And if I had this magic wand I would do

1259
01:12:49,053 --> 01:12:52,773
Speaker 3: these two things at once. So abolish any rules on

1260
01:12:52,933 --> 01:12:56,653
Speaker 3: FDI or a direct investment and changing the way that

1261
01:12:56,693 --> 01:12:59,013
Speaker 3: we find as councils so that they have a reason

1262
01:12:59,093 --> 01:13:00,013
Speaker 3: to go for growth.

1263
01:13:00,493 --> 01:13:04,093
Speaker 2: That would be the next mayor of Oakland, do you.

1264
01:13:03,133 --> 01:13:06,373
Speaker 3: No, I don't think I've got the charm The office requires.

1265
01:13:08,653 --> 01:13:11,693
Speaker 2: Oliver Hart, which it is always a pleasure, and this

1266
01:13:11,733 --> 01:13:15,453
Speaker 2: one was supremely so thank you for your time and

1267
01:13:16,933 --> 01:13:17,453
Speaker 2: keep your thinking.

1268
01:13:17,493 --> 01:13:17,613
Speaker 1: Oh.

1269
01:13:17,653 --> 01:13:20,413
Speaker 2: One last question, one last question.

1270
01:13:20,973 --> 01:13:23,053
Speaker 3: Now called lumber, right, I have the lumber, always had

1271
01:13:23,253 --> 01:13:23,853
Speaker 3: the last question.

1272
01:13:24,253 --> 01:13:27,533
Speaker 2: I've asked you this before on at least one, but

1273
01:13:27,533 --> 01:13:30,493
Speaker 2: I think more occasions. Would you consider leaving this country

1274
01:13:30,533 --> 01:13:31,013
Speaker 2: at the moment?

1275
01:13:31,413 --> 01:13:32,853
Speaker 3: No, because I've got its shop to them.

1276
01:13:32,933 --> 01:13:36,253
Speaker 2: Still, it's a good answer and I'll take it. Thanks again,

1277
01:13:36,413 --> 01:13:38,653
Speaker 2: thank you, and it won't be the last time.

1278
01:13:39,013 --> 01:13:39,293
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1279
01:13:39,373 --> 01:13:57,933
Speaker 2: Lateon, there are essential fat nutrients that we need in

1280
01:13:57,973 --> 01:14:00,933
Speaker 2: our diet as the body can't manufacture them. These are

1281
01:14:01,053 --> 01:14:05,133
Speaker 2: Omega three and Amiga six fatty acience. Equisin is a

1282
01:14:05,173 --> 01:14:08,893
Speaker 2: combination of fish oil and virgin evening primrose oil, a

1283
01:14:08,933 --> 01:14:12,093
Speaker 2: formula that provides an excellent source of Omega three and

1284
01:14:12,173 --> 01:14:15,893
Speaker 2: Omega six fatty acids in their naturally existing ratios. The

1285
01:14:15,933 --> 01:14:19,853
Speaker 2: Omega six from evening primrose oil assists the Omega three

1286
01:14:19,893 --> 01:14:22,773
Speaker 2: fish oil to be more effective. Equisine is a high

1287
01:14:22,853 --> 01:14:26,053
Speaker 2: quality fish oil supplement enriched with evening primrose oil that

1288
01:14:26,133 --> 01:14:30,613
Speaker 2: works synergistically for comprehensive health support. Source from the deep

1289
01:14:30,653 --> 01:14:35,493
Speaker 2: sea sardines Anchovisa Magril provide essential Amiga three fatty acids

1290
01:14:35,653 --> 01:14:39,133
Speaker 2: in their purest form without any internal organs or toxins.

1291
01:14:39,573 --> 01:14:42,253
Speaker 2: Every batch is tested for its purity before it's allowed

1292
01:14:42,293 --> 01:14:45,653
Speaker 2: to be sold. Equisine supports cells to be flexible, so

1293
01:14:45,813 --> 01:14:50,493
Speaker 2: important to support healthy blood flow and overall cardiovascular health.

1294
01:14:50,973 --> 01:14:54,853
Speaker 2: Equisine can support mood, balance and mental clarity and focus

1295
01:14:54,853 --> 01:14:58,413
Speaker 2: in children, all the way to supporting stiff joints, mental focus,

1296
01:14:58,453 --> 01:15:01,973
Speaker 2: brain health and healthy eyes as we get older. Equisine

1297
01:15:02,053 --> 01:15:05,293
Speaker 2: is a premium, high grade fish and evening primrose oil

1298
01:15:05,453 --> 01:15:08,373
Speaker 2: to be taken in addition to a healthy diet. It

1299
01:15:08,573 --> 01:15:12,133
Speaker 2: is only available from pharmacies and health stores. Always read

1300
01:15:12,133 --> 01:15:15,653
Speaker 2: the label and users directed, and if symptoms persist, see

1301
01:15:15,733 --> 01:15:27,413
Speaker 2: your healthcare professional. Farmer Broker Auckland. Welcome to the mail

1302
01:15:27,493 --> 01:15:30,293
Speaker 2: room for podcast two hundred and forty two, missus producer,

1303
01:15:31,653 --> 01:15:34,373
Speaker 2: I would like you to lead. If you don't mind.

1304
01:15:34,333 --> 01:15:37,933
Speaker 4: Lateon, I will. Kevin says, listening to your weekly podcasts

1305
01:15:38,293 --> 01:15:41,533
Speaker 4: and many times re listening to them, is a pleasant

1306
01:15:41,573 --> 01:15:45,173
Speaker 4: diversion and thankfully reminds me the whole world hasn't transformed

1307
01:15:45,213 --> 01:15:49,373
Speaker 4: into absurdity. I rather suspect you have a deeper understanding

1308
01:15:49,413 --> 01:15:51,733
Speaker 4: of the nature of the world's state of affairs, maybe

1309
01:15:51,773 --> 01:15:55,493
Speaker 4: not apparent to those interviewees who miss your obvious clues

1310
01:15:55,573 --> 01:16:00,253
Speaker 4: and dispersed amongst the insightful questions you ask. I'm usually

1311
01:16:00,293 --> 01:16:03,293
Speaker 4: in a state of anticipation as you poke holes in

1312
01:16:03,333 --> 01:16:06,693
Speaker 4: the fabric of current reality and tease out and expose

1313
01:16:06,733 --> 01:16:10,573
Speaker 4: the pieces of information each guest may have to further

1314
01:16:10,693 --> 01:16:14,733
Speaker 4: unpick the powers that Bee's masterful plan to continually enslave

1315
01:16:15,373 --> 01:16:19,693
Speaker 4: mankind in a beehive mentality. For this and the information

1316
01:16:19,853 --> 01:16:23,573
Speaker 4: imparted by your refusal to embrace a woke or meronic

1317
01:16:23,933 --> 01:16:26,133
Speaker 4: dumbed down, politically correct narrative.

1318
01:16:26,293 --> 01:16:27,013
Speaker 2: I thank you.

1319
01:16:27,853 --> 01:16:31,773
Speaker 4: More recently John or Cock, Muriel Newman and Anthony Willie

1320
01:16:31,813 --> 01:16:34,093
Speaker 4: I have shared with many friends, but the real tour

1321
01:16:34,213 --> 01:16:37,573
Speaker 4: of forse without doubt was the letter from Leon Hill,

1322
01:16:37,613 --> 01:16:41,133
Speaker 4: the assie from Iceland. Being on the fringes of a

1323
01:16:41,173 --> 01:16:44,693
Speaker 4: loosely organized freedom movement of New Zealand, I was aware

1324
01:16:44,733 --> 01:16:49,613
Speaker 4: of the conspiracy theory pertaining to a proposed population wide

1325
01:16:49,733 --> 01:16:53,413
Speaker 4: digital idea which is to be implemented overseas and here.

1326
01:16:53,453 --> 01:16:57,493
Speaker 4: But the shock of realizing Australia just now legislated for

1327
01:16:57,653 --> 01:17:01,573
Speaker 4: its implementation galvanized me into sharing that letter with as

1328
01:17:01,573 --> 01:17:05,813
Speaker 4: many people as possible for being that watchman for encroachments

1329
01:17:05,933 --> 01:17:08,853
Speaker 4: on our freedom. Again, I thank you from Kevin.

1330
01:17:08,973 --> 01:17:11,453
Speaker 2: Kevin, very nice of you. Thank you. And there's a

1331
01:17:11,493 --> 01:17:15,533
Speaker 2: couple of things to comment on, specifically where he says,

1332
01:17:15,773 --> 01:17:18,173
Speaker 2: I rather suspect you have a deeper understanding of the

1333
01:17:18,253 --> 01:17:22,493
Speaker 2: nature of the world's state of affairs, maybe not apparent

1334
01:17:22,533 --> 01:17:27,213
Speaker 2: to those interviewees who miss your obvious clues blah blah.

1335
01:17:27,613 --> 01:17:30,813
Speaker 2: I've decided what the problem is the problem is that

1336
01:17:30,853 --> 01:17:35,053
Speaker 2: there are too many people who have no idea what

1337
01:17:35,293 --> 01:17:39,373
Speaker 2: really is going on because they restrict themselves to their

1338
01:17:39,413 --> 01:17:43,453
Speaker 2: own particular format without and I've had this discussion with

1339
01:17:43,533 --> 01:17:45,933
Speaker 2: so many people over over a long period of time.

1340
01:17:46,333 --> 01:17:50,973
Speaker 2: If you're reading material that comes via media that shuts

1341
01:17:51,133 --> 01:17:55,133
Speaker 2: down any objection to the narrative of the day or

1342
01:17:55,173 --> 01:17:59,213
Speaker 2: the moment, or the year or the lifetime, then you're

1343
01:17:59,373 --> 01:18:02,213
Speaker 2: going to be ignorant of what might really be going

1344
01:18:02,253 --> 01:18:04,573
Speaker 2: on because you can't make a judgment call. All you're

1345
01:18:04,573 --> 01:18:08,053
Speaker 2: doing is group thinking and being spoon fed, which is

1346
01:18:08,053 --> 01:18:10,613
Speaker 2: really done. And I've had a couple of those in

1347
01:18:10,613 --> 01:18:13,453
Speaker 2: interviews in the not too distant past. If I may

1348
01:18:13,493 --> 01:18:17,533
Speaker 2: say from Chester Laateon just wanted to say I listened

1349
01:18:17,573 --> 01:18:19,693
Speaker 2: to Uriel Newman last week and thought that she was

1350
01:18:19,933 --> 01:18:24,053
Speaker 2: truly brilliant. It just saddens me that she is ignored

1351
01:18:24,093 --> 01:18:27,253
Speaker 2: by mainstream media in this country as she delivers her

1352
01:18:27,293 --> 01:18:30,853
Speaker 2: message intelligently and thoughtfully. She covered the issues read the

1353
01:18:30,853 --> 01:18:35,133
Speaker 2: treaty and general topics around it with great clarity. When

1354
01:18:35,133 --> 01:18:38,213
Speaker 2: the Herald were running their radio ads about how they

1355
01:18:38,653 --> 01:18:43,653
Speaker 2: quote told both sides of the story those quote, I

1356
01:18:43,813 --> 01:18:47,093
Speaker 2: put in a complaint to the Broadcasting Standards Authority suggesting

1357
01:18:47,133 --> 01:18:51,253
Speaker 2: that no, they didn't it attached several of Muriel's newsletters

1358
01:18:51,293 --> 01:18:55,133
Speaker 2: as proof, only to be told that my complaint did

1359
01:18:55,173 --> 01:18:58,853
Speaker 2: not reach the threshold where they would or could take action.

1360
01:18:59,613 --> 01:19:02,853
Speaker 2: Spare me. You're up against it, aren't.

1361
01:19:02,573 --> 01:19:06,173
Speaker 4: You, Leake Jen says. Just a month ago, Channel nine

1362
01:19:06,173 --> 01:19:11,173
Speaker 4: Australia reported that Minisha Grizoo had been dubbed Australia's strictest

1363
01:19:11,373 --> 01:19:14,773
Speaker 4: Principle and the success of the Marsden Road Public School

1364
01:19:14,813 --> 01:19:18,533
Speaker 4: was mostly due to her strict implementation of her behavior

1365
01:19:18,613 --> 01:19:23,693
Speaker 4: curriculum in her school. Menisha explains, we are teaching children

1366
01:19:23,733 --> 01:19:26,973
Speaker 4: how to address an adult, how to enter the classroom

1367
01:19:27,053 --> 01:19:30,173
Speaker 4: and correctly look after your books when you teach. This

1368
01:19:30,293 --> 01:19:32,893
Speaker 4: is a lesson from when the child is five. They

1369
01:19:32,973 --> 01:19:35,013
Speaker 4: don't see it as a discipline by the time they

1370
01:19:35,013 --> 01:19:37,293
Speaker 4: are twelve years old, because it is something that is

1371
01:19:37,493 --> 01:19:40,333
Speaker 4: ingrained in them right from the time they enter the school.

1372
01:19:41,133 --> 01:19:45,213
Speaker 4: The article detailed four pillars of the Marsden Way. The

1373
01:19:45,253 --> 01:19:50,213
Speaker 4: first pillar is the standardized core syllabus which all teachers follow.

1374
01:19:50,613 --> 01:19:54,133
Speaker 4: The second pillar is the systematic way in which all

1375
01:19:54,173 --> 01:19:58,453
Speaker 4: teachers are to teach. The third pillar is the structured

1376
01:19:58,573 --> 01:20:02,693
Speaker 4: system by which all students are assessed and the fourth

1377
01:20:02,693 --> 01:20:07,253
Speaker 4: pillar is the consistent drumming of good civics and citizenship

1378
01:20:07,413 --> 01:20:11,853
Speaker 4: into all students. These four pillars show that Manisha Grizzuola's

1379
01:20:11,893 --> 01:20:15,933
Speaker 4: success is due to the clarity and uniformity of expectations

1380
01:20:16,413 --> 01:20:20,893
Speaker 4: she has set for all teachers, students and parents. I

1381
01:20:20,933 --> 01:20:22,733
Speaker 4: loved it when she said in your podcast that we

1382
01:20:22,813 --> 01:20:25,733
Speaker 4: need to train and discipline kids while they are young

1383
01:20:25,853 --> 01:20:31,813
Speaker 4: because quote that little defiance becomes swearing tomorrow. How true.

1384
01:20:32,013 --> 01:20:36,333
Speaker 4: Just recall those disrespectful New Zealand students brazenly swearing at

1385
01:20:36,413 --> 01:20:40,293
Speaker 4: David Seymour in public. We need more Miniesia Grizzolas, not

1386
01:20:40,653 --> 01:20:43,173
Speaker 4: just in Australia, but in New Zealand too.

1387
01:20:44,813 --> 01:20:50,813
Speaker 2: Excellent, Paul writes, thanks for discussing digital ideas. Sadly it's

1388
01:20:50,813 --> 01:20:54,973
Speaker 2: something we will likely have to contend with due to

1389
01:20:55,133 --> 01:21:00,653
Speaker 2: public apathy and low IQ or conniving globalist politicians combination

1390
01:21:00,733 --> 01:21:03,573
Speaker 2: of all. I'd say New Zealand, a small country at

1391
01:21:03,613 --> 01:21:06,613
Speaker 2: the bottom of the world, needs to diversify what it

1392
01:21:06,693 --> 01:21:09,733
Speaker 2: does to pay the bills. Too often we have followed

1393
01:21:09,733 --> 01:21:13,693
Speaker 2: along and copied what larger nations have done, even after

1394
01:21:13,773 --> 01:21:17,173
Speaker 2: it had failed. Offshore gives an example of the firearms Register.

1395
01:21:17,413 --> 01:21:19,453
Speaker 2: We don't have to do this, It's not in our

1396
01:21:19,453 --> 01:21:23,253
Speaker 2: best interest. Look how we copied the deregulated power market

1397
01:21:23,693 --> 01:21:28,573
Speaker 2: and now we have expensive power and limited generation. When

1398
01:21:28,653 --> 01:21:33,093
Speaker 2: the Ministry of Electricity was closed, it was planning on

1399
01:21:33,173 --> 01:21:37,973
Speaker 2: building a nuclear reactor. We need to work smarter, not harder.

1400
01:21:38,813 --> 01:21:41,693
Speaker 2: We could be one of the countries offering the electronic

1401
01:21:41,773 --> 01:21:46,733
Speaker 2: id haven for poor souls stuck in socialist hellholes around

1402
01:21:46,733 --> 01:21:50,373
Speaker 2: the platter. We could be the New Switzerland of the

1403
01:21:50,413 --> 01:21:54,533
Speaker 2: South Pacific and the lifeboat of personal freedom. If only

1404
01:21:55,173 --> 01:22:02,053
Speaker 2: cheers from Paul Paul, very good suggestions, good comments the

1405
01:22:02,093 --> 01:22:05,653
Speaker 2: New Switzerland. While we've bandied that one around for some time,

1406
01:22:06,293 --> 01:22:09,693
Speaker 2: going all the way back to the eighties and the

1407
01:22:09,813 --> 01:22:13,533
Speaker 2: changes wrought by Roger Douglas Attel. But the commentary we

1408
01:22:13,693 --> 01:22:17,293
Speaker 2: just enjoyed with Oliver Hartwich, I think has made a

1409
01:22:17,333 --> 01:22:20,733
Speaker 2: contribution to the discussion. There just isn't enough of it.

1410
01:22:21,533 --> 01:22:25,253
Speaker 4: Laken Colin says the last government in New Zealand, using

1411
01:22:25,453 --> 01:22:30,053
Speaker 4: identity politics and guidance from the UN has left us

1412
01:22:30,093 --> 01:22:34,293
Speaker 4: with a lot of people feeling a sense of victimization. Therefore,

1413
01:22:34,333 --> 01:22:37,173
Speaker 4: some are resorting to a sense of entitlement, and others

1414
01:22:37,213 --> 01:22:39,853
Speaker 4: are sick of it all and are leaving the country.

1415
01:22:40,333 --> 01:22:43,813
Speaker 4: We even have one political party wanting to legitimize something

1416
01:22:43,893 --> 01:22:46,533
Speaker 4: like a Part eight because of their sense of entitlement.

1417
01:22:47,253 --> 01:22:49,573
Speaker 4: One hopes that Mary King can use his king e

1418
01:22:49,693 --> 01:22:53,773
Speaker 4: Tunga to steer a better path. Otherwise we are going backwards.

1419
01:22:54,413 --> 01:22:58,253
Speaker 4: People should realize the monetary and social damage needs some

1420
01:22:58,373 --> 01:23:02,693
Speaker 4: time to be corrected. In the last podcast, Minisha Grizzuola

1421
01:23:02,893 --> 01:23:05,173
Speaker 4: optimized the way of thinking we need to get back

1422
01:23:05,213 --> 01:23:08,253
Speaker 4: to where people have a sense of decency and want

1423
01:23:08,533 --> 01:23:09,933
Speaker 4: to contribute to society.

1424
01:23:10,013 --> 01:23:13,693
Speaker 2: That's from Colin, Colin, thank you. From Chris, I have

1425
01:23:13,733 --> 01:23:15,533
Speaker 2: a feeling. I read this last week. I just have

1426
01:23:15,653 --> 01:23:18,013
Speaker 2: a feeling, but I woult to include it anyway because

1427
01:23:18,093 --> 01:23:22,413
Speaker 2: worthy of a second reading. It comes from Chris. It

1428
01:23:22,453 --> 01:23:25,693
Speaker 2: comes as no surprise that primary teachers are failing maths

1429
01:23:25,733 --> 01:23:30,773
Speaker 2: and science. This is because both these subjects explore reality

1430
01:23:30,853 --> 01:23:35,613
Speaker 2: and facts, and changing the answer doesn't alter truth, but

1431
01:23:35,733 --> 01:23:39,253
Speaker 2: only makes the answer wrong. The reason for teachers failing

1432
01:23:39,293 --> 01:23:43,453
Speaker 2: subjects based on truth and reason is candidates who are

1433
01:23:43,813 --> 01:23:48,773
Speaker 2: strong in these areas will self select out of teacher training.

1434
01:23:49,573 --> 01:23:52,653
Speaker 2: The problem is not the teaching of math and science,

1435
01:23:53,053 --> 01:23:56,013
Speaker 2: but the type of system that favors candidates with flexible

1436
01:23:56,053 --> 01:24:00,693
Speaker 2: ideas on how the world works. If in a teacher

1437
01:24:00,733 --> 01:24:04,493
Speaker 2: training and school system that tells you what to think

1438
01:24:05,093 --> 01:24:08,813
Speaker 2: and prohibits reason discussion, the situation will not imp until

1439
01:24:08,933 --> 01:24:11,933
Speaker 2: candidates who value a fact based approach to life are

1440
01:24:12,013 --> 01:24:15,253
Speaker 2: welcome to bag in. For the record, I'm married to

1441
01:24:15,293 --> 01:24:18,653
Speaker 2: a school teacher who understands the system and the politics

1442
01:24:18,773 --> 01:24:21,893
Speaker 2: of keeping your job, and then there's a ps at

1443
01:24:21,893 --> 01:24:24,733
Speaker 2: the bottom. I homeschool our kids and the biggest champion

1444
01:24:24,773 --> 01:24:28,493
Speaker 2: of this continuing is my school teacher's.

1445
01:24:28,133 --> 01:24:31,893
Speaker 4: Spouse, Layton George says. This week we were treated to

1446
01:24:31,933 --> 01:24:37,213
Speaker 4: a wonderful example of apology, acknowledgment and gracious acceptance, where

1447
01:24:37,253 --> 01:24:40,013
Speaker 4: the mutual act of goodwill to parties agreed to a

1448
01:24:40,053 --> 01:24:43,613
Speaker 4: settlement which goes some way to address historical wrongs and

1449
01:24:43,693 --> 01:24:46,653
Speaker 4: allow both sides to move forward and look to the future.

1450
01:24:47,213 --> 01:24:51,053
Speaker 4: The mood in Parliament was profound. Unfortunately, there was a

1451
01:24:51,093 --> 01:24:54,413
Speaker 4: misunderstanding around the protocols of both parties. At the end

1452
01:24:54,453 --> 01:24:59,693
Speaker 4: of proceedings, Predictably, Mari members of the opposition seized upon

1453
01:24:59,733 --> 01:25:03,653
Speaker 4: the opportunity to make political capital of the oversight. As

1454
01:25:03,653 --> 01:25:08,253
Speaker 4: a result, the positive mood became tainted by unseemly political posture.

1455
01:25:09,253 --> 01:25:12,693
Speaker 4: The budget was presented the following day. The Marie Party

1456
01:25:12,813 --> 01:25:16,213
Speaker 4: was present only for the time required for their speech.

1457
01:25:16,293 --> 01:25:20,453
Speaker 4: In reply, their co leader's address was full of acrimony

1458
01:25:20,573 --> 01:25:25,693
Speaker 4: and vitriol, with demands for separate governance and large portions

1459
01:25:25,733 --> 01:25:29,853
Speaker 4: of taxpayer funds. The contrast with the previous day could

1460
01:25:29,853 --> 01:25:32,453
Speaker 4: not have been more stark. From a day of respect

1461
01:25:32,573 --> 01:25:35,493
Speaker 4: and forgiveness to one of rancor and threats of revolt.

1462
01:25:36,493 --> 01:25:39,973
Speaker 4: Questions arise on whether some of the Marie political leadership

1463
01:25:40,013 --> 01:25:44,173
Speaker 4: is serving the best interests of their constituents or simply

1464
01:25:44,213 --> 01:25:48,253
Speaker 4: preferring self serving histrionics. That's from George.

1465
01:25:48,693 --> 01:25:53,533
Speaker 2: George, appreciate it now, Peter Wrights. Firstly, I send my

1466
01:25:53,613 --> 01:25:59,093
Speaker 2: condolences over Carolyn's mother's death. I don't really know what

1467
01:25:59,173 --> 01:26:01,693
Speaker 2: else to say other than it hurt like hell when

1468
01:26:01,733 --> 01:26:04,493
Speaker 2: my mum died, so I can only presume that Caroline

1469
01:26:04,533 --> 01:26:07,693
Speaker 2: is hurting too very much. I have to say I

1470
01:26:07,733 --> 01:26:10,013
Speaker 2: hope that she theres plenty of support around her at

1471
01:26:10,013 --> 01:26:14,373
Speaker 2: this time. She did have plenty and still does. Secondly,

1472
01:26:14,813 --> 01:26:18,213
Speaker 2: how refreshing it was to hear your interview with Miniitia Gazula.

1473
01:26:18,853 --> 01:26:22,133
Speaker 2: I found her approach to be forthright, clear, honest and

1474
01:26:22,173 --> 01:26:25,613
Speaker 2: no nonsense, all qualities which I think any leader must possess.

1475
01:26:26,053 --> 01:26:29,133
Speaker 2: While she didn't come out and use the it's my

1476
01:26:29,213 --> 01:26:32,533
Speaker 2: way of the highway cliche, that is what her actions

1477
01:26:32,573 --> 01:26:36,053
Speaker 2: amounted to, and I can only presume that her teachers

1478
01:26:36,293 --> 01:26:40,173
Speaker 2: must at least have appreciated her direct communication, regardless of

1479
01:26:40,173 --> 01:26:42,613
Speaker 2: whether they liked it or not. I only wish that

1480
01:26:42,693 --> 01:26:45,813
Speaker 2: the last Labour led government had behaved more like this.

1481
01:26:46,893 --> 01:26:50,693
Speaker 2: It is all very well being inclusive, but when you're

1482
01:26:50,733 --> 01:26:54,173
Speaker 2: running a country, I think that clear, direct and unambiguous

1483
01:26:54,253 --> 01:26:57,613
Speaker 2: language is needed, and lord knows there was precious little

1484
01:26:57,613 --> 01:27:01,373
Speaker 2: of that during the adern Hipkins years. Was it only years,

1485
01:27:01,613 --> 01:27:05,853
Speaker 2: not like centuries? From the actions of the current coalition,

1486
01:27:06,013 --> 01:27:08,093
Speaker 2: it seems that they are at least being far more

1487
01:27:08,333 --> 01:27:11,893
Speaker 2: directed an upfront with their language, and long may it continue.

1488
01:27:12,373 --> 01:27:15,533
Speaker 2: I was going to suggest that we your podcast listeners,

1489
01:27:16,173 --> 01:27:18,533
Speaker 2: passed the hat around and raise money to send Erica

1490
01:27:18,613 --> 01:27:23,213
Speaker 2: Stanford to Minesia Gazoula's school for some lessons of her

1491
01:27:23,253 --> 01:27:26,813
Speaker 2: own Stanford's that is, but then it occurred to me

1492
01:27:26,893 --> 01:27:30,133
Speaker 2: that I am already a taxpayer of which Erica Stanford

1493
01:27:30,173 --> 01:27:33,453
Speaker 2: is a recipient. Therefore, as I am directly paying her

1494
01:27:33,493 --> 01:27:36,893
Speaker 2: wages as her employer, I direct her to I direct

1495
01:27:36,893 --> 01:27:40,733
Speaker 2: her to make this trip. She could learn a lot. Well.

1496
01:27:41,013 --> 01:27:43,253
Speaker 2: I wonder if you changed your mind or modified your

1497
01:27:43,293 --> 01:27:47,053
Speaker 2: thoughts a little bit after the discussion with Oliver because

1498
01:27:47,093 --> 01:27:50,493
Speaker 2: he was singing her praises some highly in whiting, was

1499
01:27:50,533 --> 01:27:54,533
Speaker 2: he not, missus producer? Your mother was a wonderful person,

1500
01:27:55,653 --> 01:28:00,533
Speaker 2: an even greater woman actually, and she was somebody that

1501
01:28:01,253 --> 01:28:05,053
Speaker 2: everybody I know, she was somebody that they all loved,

1502
01:28:05,653 --> 01:28:08,333
Speaker 2: or if they didn't know well enough, they thought admirably

1503
01:28:08,613 --> 01:28:11,933
Speaker 2: of her. Very intelligent woman. And you've been telling me

1504
01:28:12,013 --> 01:28:12,853
Speaker 2: that for years.

1505
01:28:13,293 --> 01:28:15,693
Speaker 4: Well, I'm so proud of my mum. She died at

1506
01:28:15,733 --> 01:28:20,693
Speaker 4: the age of ninety two. And you know, you kind

1507
01:28:20,693 --> 01:28:23,653
Speaker 4: of think that once somebody gets to that great old age,

1508
01:28:23,693 --> 01:28:26,573
Speaker 4: it becomes easier because you know that they have had

1509
01:28:26,613 --> 01:28:30,573
Speaker 4: a wonderful breadth of life. But it doesn't get easier

1510
01:28:30,613 --> 01:28:34,453
Speaker 4: at all. She was highly intelligent. She was one of

1511
01:28:34,493 --> 01:28:38,893
Speaker 4: those first women at university. She went to university in

1512
01:28:38,933 --> 01:28:43,973
Speaker 4: London and then to the Sorbonne, Paris. Apparently she just

1513
01:28:44,693 --> 01:28:47,893
Speaker 4: narrowly managed to not get into Oxford or Cambridge, and

1514
01:28:48,733 --> 01:28:54,253
Speaker 4: in the would have been fifties, No forties, wouldn't it

1515
01:28:54,373 --> 01:28:57,093
Speaker 4: forties and fifties, That would have been quite the achievement.

1516
01:28:57,933 --> 01:29:00,973
Speaker 4: She was by far the most intelligent one in my family,

1517
01:29:01,653 --> 01:29:04,173
Speaker 4: and right up until the day she died, she was

1518
01:29:04,213 --> 01:29:06,093
Speaker 4: doing crosswords.

1519
01:29:05,373 --> 01:29:08,053
Speaker 2: And blakes gravel.

1520
01:29:08,413 --> 01:29:13,253
Speaker 4: Her breadth of the English language was ridiculous. I'm going

1521
01:29:13,293 --> 01:29:16,813
Speaker 4: to miss her so terribly, but I am so thankful

1522
01:29:17,013 --> 01:29:20,853
Speaker 4: to have my family around me. And it happens to

1523
01:29:20,933 --> 01:29:23,733
Speaker 4: us all, does it not? And thank you Layton.

1524
01:29:25,013 --> 01:29:29,173
Speaker 2: Unfortunately does happen to us all. And she was a wonderful,

1525
01:29:29,173 --> 01:29:32,413
Speaker 2: wonderful woman. I loved it dearly. Thank you, thank you,

1526
01:29:33,093 --> 01:29:35,413
Speaker 2: and we shall see you next week, Yes you will.

1527
01:29:51,493 --> 01:29:55,893
Speaker 2: I made mentioned earlier of the Lost Generation, written by

1528
01:29:56,093 --> 01:29:59,573
Speaker 2: a psychologist who forwarded it to me in two thousand

1529
01:29:59,573 --> 01:30:02,933
Speaker 2: and nine, written and read on news talks at me

1530
01:30:03,173 --> 01:30:06,893
Speaker 2: in two thousand and nine. Back then, there was some

1531
01:30:07,253 --> 01:30:11,253
Speaker 2: lots of issues, lots of trouble with kids, young kids,

1532
01:30:11,853 --> 01:30:15,253
Speaker 2: undisciplined kids, et cetera. It is only worse today because

1533
01:30:15,293 --> 01:30:19,013
Speaker 2: it hasn't been addressed appropriately. So the proof is in

1534
01:30:19,053 --> 01:30:22,613
Speaker 2: the interim period from two thousand and nine to now

1535
01:30:23,213 --> 01:30:26,573
Speaker 2: as to what should have been done and what could

1536
01:30:26,573 --> 01:30:31,173
Speaker 2: have been done but wasn't. And this is what she wrote,

1537
01:30:32,013 --> 01:30:36,173
Speaker 2: the last generation lost in the underbelly of a dysfunctional

1538
01:30:36,413 --> 01:30:40,893
Speaker 2: fatherless society. The saddest aspect of recent events, particularly amongst

1539
01:30:41,013 --> 01:30:44,253
Speaker 2: young men, is that it's unlikely to stop in the

1540
01:30:44,293 --> 01:30:48,693
Speaker 2: near future. Why because no one or no organization or

1541
01:30:48,773 --> 01:30:51,933
Speaker 2: social agency or government department is doing anything to address

1542
01:30:51,973 --> 01:30:56,293
Speaker 2: the deepening chaos. It is a multi layered problem, not

1543
01:30:56,373 --> 01:30:59,333
Speaker 2: just the domain of responsibility of one group of people,

1544
01:30:59,733 --> 01:31:03,093
Speaker 2: but that of a collective of people, organizations, and yes,

1545
01:31:03,813 --> 01:31:09,853
Speaker 2: especially government departments. The problem pheps Almost half of the

1546
01:31:10,013 --> 01:31:13,693
Speaker 2: Y generation, that is, those born after nineteen eighty were

1547
01:31:13,773 --> 01:31:17,693
Speaker 2: raised in a single parent family, mainly mothers. The absent

1548
01:31:17,813 --> 01:31:22,773
Speaker 2: father syndrome is now epidemic, and the result more destructive

1549
01:31:22,853 --> 01:31:25,933
Speaker 2: than could ever have been imagined. Keep in mind this

1550
01:31:25,973 --> 01:31:29,013
Speaker 2: is two thousand and nine. Now it's worse. A generation

1551
01:31:29,133 --> 01:31:32,173
Speaker 2: full of extremely angry young men has been the result.

1552
01:31:32,613 --> 01:31:35,893
Speaker 2: Then in bracket she puts, there are also many very

1553
01:31:35,973 --> 01:31:40,333
Speaker 2: angry adolescent girls, with few of these adolescents having a

1554
01:31:40,373 --> 01:31:44,293
Speaker 2: positive male role model. The outcome will soon border on

1555
01:31:44,533 --> 01:31:48,493
Speaker 2: anarchy by this displaced group, and they don't know how

1556
01:31:48,533 --> 01:31:53,013
Speaker 2: to behave or what acceptable behavior is because it's never

1557
01:31:53,053 --> 01:31:55,973
Speaker 2: been role modeled or taught to them in their formative years.

1558
01:31:56,653 --> 01:31:59,373
Speaker 2: Mothers can only do so much and nothing at all

1559
01:31:59,453 --> 01:32:02,853
Speaker 2: if they suffer from any addictions or dependence on alcohol

1560
01:32:02,933 --> 01:32:06,573
Speaker 2: or drugs. Who has any teeth to stop them doing

1561
01:32:06,693 --> 01:32:11,893
Speaker 2: exactly what they like? Not parents, not the police, not teachers.

1562
01:32:12,733 --> 01:32:18,493
Speaker 2: They despise and defy authority, why because they can. Years

1563
01:32:18,533 --> 01:32:21,733
Speaker 2: of PC crap has brought about a breed of uncivilized

1564
01:32:21,733 --> 01:32:24,853
Speaker 2: little monsters, some of whom terrorize their parents on a

1565
01:32:24,893 --> 01:32:29,773
Speaker 2: regular basis. Kids from age ten and up are inflicting

1566
01:32:29,973 --> 01:32:34,093
Speaker 2: untold pain and agony on their parents, from diabolical behavior

1567
01:32:34,173 --> 01:32:38,933
Speaker 2: to physical assault. Some parents feel helpless and fearful. Does

1568
01:32:39,013 --> 01:32:43,693
Speaker 2: this necessarily point to bad parenting? In some cases? It does,

1569
01:32:44,093 --> 01:32:48,973
Speaker 2: In others, it simply points to excessive indulgence and no boundaries.

1570
01:32:49,893 --> 01:32:53,533
Speaker 2: The despair that afflicts these kids and the perceived futility

1571
01:32:53,573 --> 01:32:57,213
Speaker 2: of their lives, coupled with anger and low self esteem,

1572
01:32:57,693 --> 01:33:00,933
Speaker 2: is what drives some of them to drugs and suicide.

1573
01:33:00,973 --> 01:33:04,653
Speaker 2: Some never had a chance. Some have had plenty of

1574
01:33:04,733 --> 01:33:08,173
Speaker 2: chances and not had the common sense to grab them.

1575
01:33:08,493 --> 01:33:12,933
Speaker 2: So possible solutions. All primary schools must have at least

1576
01:33:13,213 --> 01:33:17,653
Speaker 2: fifty percent male teachers who are paid a decent professional salary.

1577
01:33:18,373 --> 01:33:23,333
Speaker 2: Scrap NCEEA and bring back sc A and O levels

1578
01:33:23,773 --> 01:33:28,453
Speaker 2: as in the UK reintroduce a realistic minimum entrance level

1579
01:33:28,493 --> 01:33:33,053
Speaker 2: to any tertiary institution and not a free for all.

1580
01:33:33,293 --> 01:33:35,053
Speaker 2: I'm biding my tongue because I want to add to

1581
01:33:35,093 --> 01:33:38,333
Speaker 2: all this, but I don't need to. Competition and genuine

1582
01:33:38,373 --> 01:33:42,613
Speaker 2: achievement made a goal and not something to be modest about,

1583
01:33:42,813 --> 01:33:46,973
Speaker 2: but recognized and praised. Police and teachers to be given

1584
01:33:47,053 --> 01:33:52,533
Speaker 2: more power, reasonable force included in controlling defiant adolescence. This

1585
01:33:52,693 --> 01:33:55,773
Speaker 2: is the only way to restore any respect for authority.

1586
01:33:56,053 --> 01:34:00,613
Speaker 2: Political correctness must be dispatched immediately to the scrap heap

1587
01:34:00,653 --> 01:34:03,213
Speaker 2: where it belongs with all the other garbage in the world.

1588
01:34:04,013 --> 01:34:08,133
Speaker 2: A bostal system for the encouragible young men under at

1589
01:34:08,933 --> 01:34:13,573
Speaker 2: where they're supported, educated and rehabilitated back into society and

1590
01:34:13,693 --> 01:34:17,413
Speaker 2: not in training for a life of crime. Much tougher

1591
01:34:17,453 --> 01:34:20,733
Speaker 2: penalties for the eighteen plus group, particularly for crimes of

1592
01:34:20,933 --> 01:34:24,453
Speaker 2: violence and drug dealing. The minimum age for driving raised

1593
01:34:24,493 --> 01:34:29,213
Speaker 2: to eighteen and only for four cylinder cars, and directing

1594
01:34:29,293 --> 01:34:33,293
Speaker 2: age raise back to twenty. No doll or benefits other

1595
01:34:33,373 --> 01:34:38,533
Speaker 2: than sickness or invalids for anyone under twenty. They then

1596
01:34:38,613 --> 01:34:44,053
Speaker 2: become their parents' responsibility. All of these changes require cooperation

1597
01:34:44,213 --> 01:34:48,213
Speaker 2: from many government departments and social agencies, more so in

1598
01:34:48,253 --> 01:34:53,093
Speaker 2: the areas of education and justice. Revising legislation should clearly

1599
01:34:53,133 --> 01:34:56,293
Speaker 2: be no hardship for the current government two thousand and nine.

1600
01:34:57,253 --> 01:34:59,653
Speaker 2: Who is going to be first to put their hands

1601
01:34:59,733 --> 01:35:04,293
Speaker 2: up badger your MP relentlessly if nothing is done to

1602
01:35:04,333 --> 01:35:09,653
Speaker 2: address the worsening problem of suicide street violence, and nothing

1603
01:35:09,693 --> 01:35:13,973
Speaker 2: will change, and dozens more young people will die needlessly

1604
01:35:14,133 --> 01:35:18,053
Speaker 2: and tragically. No one is safe. You too, or a

1605
01:35:18,093 --> 01:35:23,573
Speaker 2: family member can become a statistic or victim. So again,

1606
01:35:23,653 --> 01:35:27,373
Speaker 2: I say this was written in two thousand and nine.

1607
01:35:27,653 --> 01:35:30,973
Speaker 2: I read it on radio, but it didn't go any

1608
01:35:31,013 --> 01:35:35,693
Speaker 2: further than that. It's a damn fine piece. It's short,

1609
01:35:36,133 --> 01:35:40,293
Speaker 2: it's sharp, it's honest, and it's truthful. And here we are,

1610
01:35:40,613 --> 01:35:43,733
Speaker 2: fifteen years down the track. And as the author says,

1611
01:35:44,093 --> 01:35:47,613
Speaker 2: if nothing's done, it'll only get worse, much worse, and

1612
01:35:47,693 --> 01:35:51,013
Speaker 2: so it has. Back in two thousand and nine, they

1613
01:35:51,013 --> 01:35:52,973
Speaker 2: didn't have ram raiders, they didn't have a lot of

1614
01:35:53,013 --> 01:35:57,173
Speaker 2: other things. Now they do and there's more coming. Now.

1615
01:35:57,213 --> 01:36:02,013
Speaker 2: You tell me who is responsible, My suggestion is it's

1616
01:36:02,053 --> 01:36:04,933
Speaker 2: the authorities, the people who should have been leading, should

1617
01:36:04,933 --> 01:36:10,733
Speaker 2: have been introducing all of the above and didn't. Why

1618
01:36:11,573 --> 01:36:15,213
Speaker 2: because we have been putting up with a range of

1619
01:36:15,213 --> 01:36:20,253
Speaker 2: politicians who in some areas in particular, are gutless or

1620
01:36:20,293 --> 01:36:22,893
Speaker 2: haven't got a clue, take your choice, and the last

1621
01:36:22,933 --> 01:36:25,333
Speaker 2: six years is only promoted it much further, of course,

1622
01:36:25,733 --> 01:36:29,653
Speaker 2: because when you are a sop to this age group,

1623
01:36:30,933 --> 01:36:34,333
Speaker 2: you'll pay the price. And we all are still have

1624
01:36:34,453 --> 01:36:38,693
Speaker 2: I overstated that the psychologist overstate in neither cases the

1625
01:36:38,773 --> 01:36:43,533
Speaker 2: answer yes. So that will take us out for podcasts

1626
01:36:43,533 --> 01:36:46,173
Speaker 2: two forty two. If you would like to write to us,

1627
01:36:46,773 --> 01:36:49,653
Speaker 2: love getting email latent at news Talks AV dot co

1628
01:36:49,773 --> 01:36:53,093
Speaker 2: dot nz or Carolyn Newstalks AV dot co dot nz.

1629
01:36:53,693 --> 01:36:58,293
Speaker 2: We'll return with two forty three very shortly. Until then,

1630
01:36:58,413 --> 01:37:01,773
Speaker 2: as always, thank you for listening and we'll talk soon.

1631
01:37:09,573 --> 01:37:13,293
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talk set b listen

1632
01:37:13,373 --> 01:37:16,333
Speaker 1: live on air or online and keep our shows with

1633
01:37:16,413 --> 01:37:19,573
Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio,