WEBVTT - Reissue: Chris Hipkins on Labour's policies, coalition attacks, MMP and Covid regrets 0:00:19.059 --> 0:00:19.379 Kyota. 0:00:19.379 --> 0:00:22.139 I at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page. 0:00:22.379 --> 0:00:25.299 We're taking away breakover summer, but to help build the gap, 0:00:25.579 --> 0:00:28.699 we're re issuing some of our most significant episodes of 0:00:28.739 --> 0:00:31.979 twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front Page team. 0:00:32.138 --> 0:00:34.619 Thanks for listening and we look forward to being back 0:00:34.659 --> 0:00:37.539 with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six. 0:00:43.299 --> 0:00:43.699 Kyota. 0:00:43.739 --> 0:00:46.979 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:47.059 --> 0:00:50.498 daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. 0:00:53.899 --> 0:00:56.699 From entering Parliament in two thousand and. 0:00:56.859 --> 0:00:59.979 Eight to leading the country in twenty twenty three, Chris 0:01:00.019 --> 0:01:05.459 Hipkins is no stranger to the spotlight. During COVID's beginnings, 0:01:05.539 --> 0:01:08.859 he was known as a safe set of hands, tackling education, 0:01:09.139 --> 0:01:11.698 health and becoming the Minister in charge of the COVID 0:01:11.739 --> 0:01:15.259 response for a time. Now he is firmly setting his 0:01:15.419 --> 0:01:19.459 sights on election twenty twenty six, but is he confident 0:01:19.539 --> 0:01:22.499 he'll still be in Labour's driving seat when it rolls around? 0:01:23.139 --> 0:01:23.459 Today? 0:01:23.459 --> 0:01:26.499 On the Front Page, Hipkins joins us to discuss the 0:01:26.579 --> 0:01:29.859 cost of living, vibes around Parliament and. 0:01:29.938 --> 0:01:32.019 Whether he'll ever be able to shake COVID. 0:01:36.258 --> 0:01:39.779 First off, Chris we had David Seymour on a wee 0:01:39.899 --> 0:01:41.738 while back. We asked him if it'd be open to 0:01:41.818 --> 0:01:44.299 working with you. He said that would require Chris Hipkins 0:01:44.339 --> 0:01:47.579 to be working. He then made an odd reference calling 0:01:47.619 --> 0:01:51.939 you Pooh Midas, which I can only assume is replacing 0:01:51.979 --> 0:01:56.059 gold with pooh. So is everything you touched turned to 0:01:56.099 --> 0:01:56.779 shit or something? 0:01:56.939 --> 0:01:58.499 Oh? Look, I mean, I think this is just what 0:01:58.579 --> 0:02:01.059 we're seeing from this government, you know, and the culture 0:02:01.059 --> 0:02:02.739 of starts from the top. It starts in the Prime 0:02:02.779 --> 0:02:05.618 Minister when St Peter's David Seymour down where they just 0:02:06.099 --> 0:02:10.579 think that attacking people, belittling people, degrading people is what 0:02:10.699 --> 0:02:11.619 leadership looks like. 0:02:11.939 --> 0:02:12.978 I don't believe that. 0:02:13.299 --> 0:02:15.179 I'm all for a bit of humor in politics, you know, 0:02:15.619 --> 0:02:17.619 a little bit of a sledge now and then where 0:02:17.619 --> 0:02:20.019 it's funny. That can to a bit of you know, 0:02:20.379 --> 0:02:23.579 political engagement. But they're not very funny and they're also 0:02:23.659 --> 0:02:26.138 not very good at it, so I think they should 0:02:26.139 --> 0:02:28.819 just stick to actually doing what people ask them to do. 0:02:28.858 --> 0:02:30.859 You know, the New Zealanders wanted them to fix the 0:02:30.858 --> 0:02:33.579 cost of living crisis. They wanted them to, you know, 0:02:33.619 --> 0:02:36.219 get the economy moving. They haven't done either. Of those things. 0:02:36.819 --> 0:02:39.738 Maybe they should focus on that rather than sledging other people. 0:02:39.858 --> 0:02:41.979 Well what about more recently, looks like you got the 0:02:41.978 --> 0:02:44.499 prime ministers go to little He said. I'm not taking 0:02:44.578 --> 0:02:47.379 any lectures from frickin' Chris Hipkins or the Labor Party, 0:02:47.739 --> 0:02:49.659 but why are you bothering people lately? 0:02:49.739 --> 0:02:52.299 Chris? Is it getting a bit testy in Parliament at 0:02:52.299 --> 0:02:52.698 the minute. 0:02:52.819 --> 0:02:55.899 I think it's getting The Government's certainly feeling the pressure, 0:02:56.099 --> 0:02:58.939 and they should be feeling the pressure because they made 0:02:58.978 --> 0:03:01.899 people a whole lot of promises that they haven't delivered on. 0:03:02.099 --> 0:03:04.379 But I remember standing next to Christopher Luxan during the 0:03:04.418 --> 0:03:06.298 leader's debates where he said that, you know, families with 0:03:06.379 --> 0:03:08.019 kids were going to be two hundred and fifty dollars 0:03:08.059 --> 0:03:10.419 a fortnight better off if he became prime minister. And 0:03:11.019 --> 0:03:14.659 they haven't identified one single family that's two hundred and 0:03:14.659 --> 0:03:18.139 fifty dollars a fortnight better off, and food prices are 0:03:18.179 --> 0:03:20.939 still going up, you know, households are still really feeling 0:03:21.019 --> 0:03:22.939 the squeeze, and so I think the government are feeling 0:03:22.978 --> 0:03:25.419 that pressure. Really, they shouldn't have made promises that they 0:03:25.418 --> 0:03:27.339 didn't intend to keep, and so I think that's why 0:03:27.379 --> 0:03:28.738 they're lashing out at everybody else. 0:03:28.739 --> 0:03:29.699 They're just trying to find. 0:03:29.538 --> 0:03:32.298 People to blame for that, And you know, on the 0:03:32.339 --> 0:03:34.619 other side, there's a lot of pressure coming on us 0:03:34.659 --> 0:03:37.659 to say, well, what would Labour do differently? Shear your policies, 0:03:38.219 --> 0:03:39.859 But the point that I've been making to people is 0:03:40.099 --> 0:03:42.299 I'm not going to put policies out there unless I 0:03:42.379 --> 0:03:44.259 know that I can deliver on them, because I don't 0:03:44.259 --> 0:03:46.139 want to end up two years down the track and 0:03:46.219 --> 0:03:48.659 find myself in the same position that they're currently in, 0:03:48.939 --> 0:03:51.179 where I've promised stuff that I can't deliver. I think 0:03:51.499 --> 0:03:53.859 we've had way too much of that in New Zealand politics, 0:03:53.899 --> 0:03:58.459 governments of all stripes making big, sweeping promises for elections 0:03:58.939 --> 0:04:01.539 and they're not delivering on them. So we're keeping up 0:04:01.579 --> 0:04:04.819 how to dry on the policy front deliberately because when 0:04:04.899 --> 0:04:06.739 we do announce it, I want to know that we 0:04:06.779 --> 0:04:09.499 can do it, and we won't be able to make 0:04:09.499 --> 0:04:11.979 that judgment till closer to the election once we see 0:04:12.139 --> 0:04:13.739 the shape the economies in and so on. 0:04:13.939 --> 0:04:15.299 So you basically do want to have a look at 0:04:15.339 --> 0:04:18.019 the books, maybe by next budget, and then you'll start 0:04:18.179 --> 0:04:20.259 kind of trickling out stuff is that how it works 0:04:20.259 --> 0:04:20.779 in an election. 0:04:20.979 --> 0:04:23.178 It is it's kind of about looking at the government's books, 0:04:23.219 --> 0:04:25.259 but it's also about making sure we're doing the work now, 0:04:25.339 --> 0:04:27.539 and opposition you don't unlike in government. You know, you 0:04:27.579 --> 0:04:29.498 don't have the entire public service doing. 0:04:29.299 --> 0:04:30.979 The work for you. You've got to do the work. 0:04:31.219 --> 0:04:33.339 So we're looking at, you know, what would things cost, 0:04:33.419 --> 0:04:35.939 how would we actually deliver them. I think one of 0:04:36.299 --> 0:04:39.059 the valid criticisms of us last time we were in 0:04:39.099 --> 0:04:41.739 opposition was that we had some really good ideas, but 0:04:41.779 --> 0:04:44.379 we hadn't worked through the detail of exactly how would 0:04:44.379 --> 0:04:46.939 we do that. And then when we got into government, 0:04:46.939 --> 0:04:48.619 we found that some of the things that we said 0:04:48.659 --> 0:04:51.019 we were going to do very well intentioned, we didn't 0:04:51.019 --> 0:04:52.739 have a clear plan for how we would do it. 0:04:52.779 --> 0:04:55.139 And I think the same thing has happened to this government. 0:04:55.459 --> 0:04:57.899 They've made promises with no plan on how they're actually 0:04:57.939 --> 0:04:59.459 going to do it, and I don't want to be 0:04:59.499 --> 0:05:01.459 in that position. So we're going to take our time. 0:05:01.539 --> 0:05:03.219 I know people are eager to hear what we want 0:05:03.259 --> 0:05:05.539 to do, but I'm going to make sure that when 0:05:05.579 --> 0:05:07.419 I do go out there and say label will do X, 0:05:07.459 --> 0:05:09.499 I can then answer all the questions about it, and 0:05:09.539 --> 0:05:11.459 I can tell people how we're going to do it 0:05:11.699 --> 0:05:13.619 so that they know that the promises we're making a 0:05:13.699 --> 0:05:17.299 credible and ones that they can rely on us delivering on. 0:05:20.259 --> 0:05:23.379 Well, mister speaker, hasn't it been a shambolic year for. 0:05:23.379 --> 0:05:25.219 The Labor Party, hasn't it? 0:05:25.259 --> 0:05:26.059 And I have to. 0:05:26.059 --> 0:05:29.019 Say, has there ever been a leader of the opposition 0:05:29.139 --> 0:05:33.059 with less substance than Chris Hipkins? Because what you get, 0:05:33.219 --> 0:05:35.339 what you get is a lot of carping. What you 0:05:35.419 --> 0:05:37.499 get is a lot of points of order, and you 0:05:37.579 --> 0:05:39.939 get a lot of wishy washy, don't you It's a 0:05:39.939 --> 0:05:41.299 lot of wishy washy. 0:05:41.459 --> 0:05:45.539 Because beneath it all, they have no policies, zero policies, 0:05:45.699 --> 0:05:47.619 and they have no plan. 0:05:50.939 --> 0:05:53.019 What is something that the party's tinkering away in the 0:05:53.059 --> 0:05:54.019 background at the moment. 0:05:54.419 --> 0:05:55.579 We're looking at a lot of things. 0:05:55.619 --> 0:05:57.259 I mean, I think if you look at what is 0:05:57.299 --> 0:05:59.779 important to us, I said when I took over from 0:05:59.859 --> 0:06:02.059 Jacinda that I wanted to see Labor get back to 0:06:02.499 --> 0:06:05.339 the core sort of things that are important to. 0:06:05.499 --> 0:06:08.019 Labor, fact, basic, back to basics jobs. 0:06:08.459 --> 0:06:10.139 You know, it's in the name of the Labor Party, 0:06:10.179 --> 0:06:12.099 That's what the Labor Party was founded on the basis 0:06:12.099 --> 0:06:14.899 of you know, good jobs that mean people get well 0:06:14.939 --> 0:06:17.059 paid and could have a better life. That's why the 0:06:17.099 --> 0:06:19.859 Labor Party exists. So that's that got to be front 0:06:19.859 --> 0:06:22.339 and center for us. And at a time when unemployment's 0:06:22.339 --> 0:06:26.099 going up, jobs, jobs, jobs is very very important. So 0:06:26.459 --> 0:06:29.339 jobs health, because you know, if you don't have access 0:06:29.379 --> 0:06:32.019 to good quality health care, then you're going to your 0:06:32.059 --> 0:06:34.579 options in life are going to be limited. And homes. 0:06:35.219 --> 0:06:37.819 Everyone deserves a place to call home. And if you 0:06:37.819 --> 0:06:39.659 look at so many of the other issues we deal with, 0:06:39.859 --> 0:06:41.659 it stems back to one of those three things, or 0:06:41.699 --> 0:06:44.539 sometimes a combination of those three things not not being 0:06:44.579 --> 0:06:46.659 where we need them to be. So you know, kids 0:06:46.659 --> 0:06:49.299 not going to school. Well, if your family's moving around 0:06:49.299 --> 0:06:52.139 houses all the time because they haven't got, you know, 0:06:52.219 --> 0:06:55.259 somewhere that they can put down roots, that's actually a 0:06:55.299 --> 0:06:57.819 big part of the problem. Kids who are getting into 0:06:57.859 --> 0:07:01.099 trouble in many cases, it's because they're living transiently. So 0:07:01.219 --> 0:07:04.499 let's make sure everyone has a home. And then I 0:07:04.499 --> 0:07:07.739 think more recently, you know, we were expecting that once 0:07:07.739 --> 0:07:10.099 inflation was back down within the target band, that cost 0:07:10.099 --> 0:07:12.139 of living would sort of drop off. The radar almost 0:07:12.259 --> 0:07:14.899 it hasn't. Cost of living is getting worse. So I 0:07:14.899 --> 0:07:16.819 think we need real action on the cost of living, 0:07:16.899 --> 0:07:18.259 and it's going to have to be more than just 0:07:18.299 --> 0:07:21.059 shouting at SOO markets and shouting at banks. It's going 0:07:21.139 --> 0:07:23.939 to have to be things that government can actually do 0:07:24.499 --> 0:07:26.339 that will tackle the cost of living for people. 0:07:26.459 --> 0:07:26.939 Well, when it. 0:07:26.899 --> 0:07:29.899 Comes to that, I was doing some research about it, 0:07:29.979 --> 0:07:32.339 and I mean, how do we make sure that the 0:07:32.339 --> 0:07:36.219 price of butter doesn't get anywhere like any more ridiculous? 0:07:36.259 --> 0:07:36.819 Do you know what I mean? 0:07:36.859 --> 0:07:40.619 In the Great Depression, I know that the government introduced 0:07:41.459 --> 0:07:44.739 subsidies for farmers and agriculture that kind of dropped off 0:07:44.739 --> 0:07:45.739 in the seventies and eighties. 0:07:45.779 --> 0:07:47.499 Why can't we do something like that again. 0:07:47.979 --> 0:07:50.299 Ultimately, we do live in a global market for that, 0:07:50.499 --> 0:07:52.779 and the real challenge for us is if we started 0:07:52.819 --> 0:07:55.699 to do that sort of thing here, we potentially limit 0:07:55.739 --> 0:07:59.259 our ability to then sell into the international market. It 0:07:59.259 --> 0:08:02.139 would compromise our ability to trade internationally if we brought 0:08:02.179 --> 0:08:05.379 back subsidies. I think there are real questions about our 0:08:05.379 --> 0:08:08.139 New Zealander is paying too much for butter. Everyone's fixated 0:08:08.139 --> 0:08:10.459 on but I've never spoken so much about butter in. 0:08:10.379 --> 0:08:13.379 My life, as I have in the last week, you know. 0:08:13.419 --> 0:08:16.059 But again the government sort of shouting at Fontia is 0:08:16.059 --> 0:08:17.859 not going to solve the problem. I think there are 0:08:17.899 --> 0:08:20.419 real issues around the super market sector, around whether we've 0:08:20.459 --> 0:08:24.099 got enough competition in the supermarket sector. But again just 0:08:24.219 --> 0:08:26.779 talking about it and admiring the problem, it's not going 0:08:26.819 --> 0:08:29.419 to solve it. So what's the government actually going to 0:08:29.499 --> 0:08:34.059 do in that space to get better competition in supermarkets 0:08:34.379 --> 0:08:36.099 and how we're going to support New Zealanders to have 0:08:36.099 --> 0:08:38.739 a higher standard of living. Prices will go up and down. 0:08:38.859 --> 0:08:41.019 You know, if you think about fruit and veggies, for example, 0:08:41.338 --> 0:08:43.819 the weather has an impact. You know, we had our 0:08:43.899 --> 0:08:46.499 cyclone in the first few weeks that I was Prime 0:08:46.499 --> 0:08:49.019 Minister that wiped out a huge amount of our fresh 0:08:49.019 --> 0:08:51.659 produce across the East Coast to the North Island, and 0:08:51.699 --> 0:08:53.379 that meant that that actually was one of the things 0:08:53.379 --> 0:08:56.419 that forced up fruit and veggie prices. The government couldn't 0:08:56.458 --> 0:08:59.858 fundamentally change that, but we do have to make sure 0:08:59.899 --> 0:09:03.138 we're supporting families through what is a really tough economic 0:09:03.259 --> 0:09:06.419 cycle at the moment, so looking at their incomes, looking 0:09:06.458 --> 0:09:11.019 at how we can contain other costs public transport, which 0:09:11.059 --> 0:09:14.258 the government have cut subsidies for, is going up hugely. 0:09:14.578 --> 0:09:16.979 Families on low incomes are more likely to rely on 0:09:17.019 --> 0:09:20.579 public transport, and now they're finding that their cost of transport, 0:09:20.699 --> 0:09:23.378 the cost of getting to and from work, is going up. 0:09:24.059 --> 0:09:26.779 That's money that they then can't spend non food. So 0:09:26.939 --> 0:09:29.819 for those families that are living hand to mouth, everything matters. 0:09:30.259 --> 0:09:32.579 And regardless of what the price of butter is doing, 0:09:32.618 --> 0:09:36.499 the real question is what's the overall family expenditure doing, 0:09:36.539 --> 0:09:39.299 you know, because are there other areas where we can 0:09:39.338 --> 0:09:41.939 ease some pressure on families and things like public transport? 0:09:42.098 --> 0:09:44.218 You know, there are good examples of things governments can do. 0:09:51.419 --> 0:09:54.499 What about the Greens approach? What about free dental, free 0:09:54.578 --> 0:09:56.059 GP visits. 0:09:56.498 --> 0:09:58.939 And what was the third? Free childcare? Seems like a 0:09:58.939 --> 0:09:59.579 good idea. 0:09:59.659 --> 0:10:01.019 So if you look at what we were talking about 0:10:01.019 --> 0:10:02.458 at the last election, you know, we had a plan 0:10:02.539 --> 0:10:05.499 to start delivering free dental. The reason that we were 0:10:05.539 --> 0:10:07.419 setting that out over a period of time is we 0:10:07.458 --> 0:10:09.858 don't have the dentists to be able to just you know, 0:10:09.899 --> 0:10:11.859 turn on a tap and say right, dentals free. That 0:10:11.899 --> 0:10:14.459 would be hard because we wouldn't have enough dentists, so 0:10:14.899 --> 0:10:17.298 over time it's absolutely achievable. 0:10:17.338 --> 0:10:17.539 You know. 0:10:17.578 --> 0:10:20.819 I did this work as prim to identify, yes, we 0:10:20.858 --> 0:10:24.338 can have free dental here, and the case of GP visits, 0:10:24.978 --> 0:10:28.299 I wouldn't necessarily start there. I do think that making 0:10:28.299 --> 0:10:30.659 it easier to go to the GP is really important. 0:10:31.299 --> 0:10:34.218 So we might not get to free immediately. At the moment, 0:10:34.218 --> 0:10:36.778 it's costing some families one hundred bucks for a GP visit. 0:10:37.498 --> 0:10:39.578 I don't think that's okay. I think we've got to 0:10:39.578 --> 0:10:41.539 deal with that. But there's things that we can do. 0:10:41.578 --> 0:10:44.779 Even before that, we abolished the five dollar co payment 0:10:44.819 --> 0:10:50.299 for prescriptions because if people were not picking up their prescriptions, 0:10:50.419 --> 0:10:52.259 they were more likely to end up having to go 0:10:52.299 --> 0:10:55.138 to a GP or go to a hospital emergency room 0:10:55.338 --> 0:10:58.458 than if they went to the pharmacist, got whatever medications 0:10:58.498 --> 0:11:00.939 they need and stayed healthy in the first place. So 0:11:01.139 --> 0:11:03.458 we did more than just that. We also said to pharmacists, 0:11:03.498 --> 0:11:08.338 you can give out some medications without prescription for winter ailments. 0:11:08.738 --> 0:11:11.058 And as a result, because people could go to the pharmacy, 0:11:11.338 --> 0:11:13.699 they didn't end up going to the doctor because they 0:11:13.699 --> 0:11:16.139 didn't need to. And I think there's a lot more 0:11:16.139 --> 0:11:18.419 we can do in that area. You know, pharmacies do 0:11:18.578 --> 0:11:21.858 a job around the country. When I became Minister of 0:11:21.899 --> 0:11:26.418 Health briefly, I learned so much more about what pharmacists 0:11:26.419 --> 0:11:29.579 can do. And I think that those opportunities to provide 0:11:29.699 --> 0:11:33.579 better preventative health care are just all over the place. 0:11:33.899 --> 0:11:36.299 Keep people healthy and the health system will be under 0:11:36.338 --> 0:11:37.139 a lot less pressure. 0:11:37.259 --> 0:11:38.778 And what about that free childcare? 0:11:38.939 --> 0:11:41.979 Yeah, and I've always been committed to that. So when 0:11:42.019 --> 0:11:44.259 I was working for Trevor Mallard as the Minister of 0:11:44.379 --> 0:11:47.779 Education back in a long time ago now, I was 0:11:47.819 --> 0:11:51.419 working on implementing twenty hours free early childhood education for 0:11:51.498 --> 0:11:54.179 three and four year olds. As Prime Minister, I extended 0:11:54.179 --> 0:11:57.138 that to two year olds. The current government have canceled 0:11:57.179 --> 0:12:00.179 the extension to two year olds unfortunately, but I do 0:12:00.218 --> 0:12:05.378 think progressively increasing more access to free early childhood education. A. 0:12:05.539 --> 0:12:07.699 It's got benefits for the kids because we know kids 0:12:07.738 --> 0:12:10.779 who have been in early childhood education quality early childhood 0:12:10.858 --> 0:12:13.459 education do better when they go to school. But it 0:12:13.498 --> 0:12:16.738 also means that for parents it's a huge easing of 0:12:16.819 --> 0:12:20.299 cost and it allows them to get back into work. 0:12:21.299 --> 0:12:25.139 And it will benefit women more than men, but there 0:12:25.139 --> 0:12:27.218 are some men who will benefit from that. Too, so 0:12:27.419 --> 0:12:29.819 women are more likely to be the person who is 0:12:29.939 --> 0:12:33.819 at home looking after the kids, but increasingly now in 0:12:33.858 --> 0:12:36.939 this day and age, there are more dads doing that too, 0:12:37.059 --> 0:12:40.339 and free early childhood education really helps them to be 0:12:40.379 --> 0:12:42.258 able to go out and earn money as well as 0:12:42.299 --> 0:12:43.259 looking after the kids. 0:12:43.618 --> 0:12:46.218 Right, So what's stopping us from just doing it tomorrow? 0:12:46.299 --> 0:12:48.259 Is it the money? Do we need to tax the retch? 0:12:48.659 --> 0:12:52.299 We could have done twenty hours free early childhood education 0:12:52.858 --> 0:12:56.378 for two year olds and we had done that. Actually 0:12:56.419 --> 0:12:59.738 the government took the money away from that to fund 0:12:59.779 --> 0:13:02.539 their Family Boost, which has been an absolute flop. You know, 0:13:02.539 --> 0:13:05.019 one hundred and fifty three families I think have actually 0:13:05.098 --> 0:13:07.739 got the full amount of the Family Boost, which you 0:13:07.779 --> 0:13:09.779 knowere was every family with a two year old would 0:13:09.819 --> 0:13:11.498 have got the twenty hours free and they wouldn't have 0:13:11.498 --> 0:13:13.099 had to fill in a form to get it. It 0:13:13.179 --> 0:13:16.419 just would have happened automatically, So big saving for the family. 0:13:16.539 --> 0:13:19.259 So there is money there to extend that out over 0:13:19.338 --> 0:13:23.219 time to more so you could potentially, you know, increase 0:13:23.259 --> 0:13:25.259 the number of hours or increase the age groups who 0:13:25.299 --> 0:13:27.979 are eligible. I think that's something that we should certainly 0:13:28.019 --> 0:13:30.179 aspire to and we can afford that as a country, 0:13:30.218 --> 0:13:33.219 if we make the right choices, bearing in mind that 0:13:33.299 --> 0:13:36.219 if we've got kids in early childhood education and the 0:13:36.259 --> 0:13:38.579 result of that is that their parents are then going 0:13:38.699 --> 0:13:40.738 back to work, those parents are going to be earning 0:13:40.738 --> 0:13:42.979 money and paying taxes, which is a good thing for 0:13:43.019 --> 0:13:45.939 government because it means that ultimately governments and you know, yes, 0:13:45.939 --> 0:13:47.858 we're spending more money on ECA, but we're getting more 0:13:47.899 --> 0:13:50.179 money because of the parents earning more money. 0:13:50.259 --> 0:13:53.059 What do you think about taxing the rech I think 0:13:53.139 --> 0:13:55.059 it's a I don't like the phrase. 0:13:55.179 --> 0:13:57.338 And the reason I don't like the phrase is because 0:13:57.338 --> 0:13:59.858 I think that tax fundamentally should come down to fairness. 0:14:00.259 --> 0:14:03.778 Everyone should pay their affair share, Everyone should make a contribution. 0:14:04.299 --> 0:14:08.699 We all benefit from health education, you know, the infrastructure 0:14:08.699 --> 0:14:11.379 that we build, things like roads, we all benefit from that. 0:14:11.539 --> 0:14:13.819 We all benefit from having a police force, we all 0:14:13.939 --> 0:14:18.019 benefit from having a good justice system, we all benefit 0:14:18.059 --> 0:14:21.739 from having a defense. So we should all contribute to 0:14:21.779 --> 0:14:24.699 the cost of those things. Then the tax system should 0:14:24.739 --> 0:14:27.219 be fair, which means those on higher incomes, and I 0:14:27.259 --> 0:14:29.979 am one of those people should pay more. And I'm 0:14:30.059 --> 0:14:33.419 quite proud to say that I'm happy to pay more 0:14:33.459 --> 0:14:34.779 as someone on a higher income. 0:14:34.899 --> 0:14:37.339 I accept that. You know, it's a great tagline. 0:14:37.459 --> 0:14:39.859 You know it's on a poster, if. 0:14:39.739 --> 0:14:42.258 It's on a poster, but it kind of it creates 0:14:42.299 --> 0:14:46.459 a culture of resentment about taxes. Taxes aren't a punishment, 0:14:47.139 --> 0:14:49.619 you know, Texas are the contribution that we all make 0:14:49.859 --> 0:14:51.499 to living in a decent society. 0:14:54.019 --> 0:14:57.059 And now Pole, we asked do you support or oppost 0:14:57.059 --> 0:15:00.619 the introduction of a capital gains tax on properties other 0:15:00.739 --> 0:15:04.099 than the family home. Forty six percent of voters are 0:15:04.099 --> 0:15:07.939 in support of the idea, while forty one percent oppose it, 0:15:08.179 --> 0:15:13.099 and thirteen percent either don't know or preferred not to say. 0:15:14.259 --> 0:15:16.099 I've read something published on Aaron said. 0:15:16.099 --> 0:15:18.299 This was in December, though, and it suggested that you 0:15:18.419 --> 0:15:20.979 will be care and painting on a capital gains tax 0:15:21.059 --> 0:15:23.819 at the next election, and that quote details would be 0:15:23.859 --> 0:15:26.419 announced as early as mid next year. 0:15:26.539 --> 0:15:29.779 Now it's past mid next year. Now it's July. Now 0:15:29.899 --> 0:15:31.379 any word on that how that might look? 0:15:31.459 --> 0:15:33.619 Yeah, Well, I've said that we'll announce our policy on 0:15:33.739 --> 0:15:36.499 that before the end of this year because I think 0:15:36.539 --> 0:15:38.099 it is important. You know that that is a big 0:15:38.139 --> 0:15:40.699 policy area. People want to know where they stand. Certainly, 0:15:40.699 --> 0:15:42.779 people to my left, you know, on the left of 0:15:42.779 --> 0:15:47.139 politics get really excited about tax debates, and I understand that, 0:15:47.259 --> 0:15:49.819 but we also need to talk about how we get 0:15:49.819 --> 0:15:53.779 people into good, well paid jobs, how we generate more 0:15:53.819 --> 0:15:56.739 wealth for the country, and we need to do that 0:15:56.899 --> 0:15:59.739 as well as ensuring that the benefits of that are 0:16:00.259 --> 0:16:03.819 fairly shared by everybody. And you can't have one side 0:16:03.859 --> 0:16:06.658 of that debate without the other. So tex is one 0:16:06.659 --> 0:16:09.099 of the ways we ensure that everybody gets the affairs 0:16:09.179 --> 0:16:11.299 year and pays the affairs yere. But we've also got 0:16:11.299 --> 0:16:14.099 to make sure that we're generating good, well paid jobs, 0:16:14.499 --> 0:16:16.459 that we've got businesses who are doing well so they 0:16:16.459 --> 0:16:18.898 can employ more people. And I don't think you can 0:16:18.979 --> 0:16:20.899 separate those two things. I think those two things do 0:16:21.019 --> 0:16:21.859 need to go together. 0:16:22.019 --> 0:16:25.299 So you will commit to yes or no by the 0:16:25.379 --> 0:16:25.699 end of. 0:16:25.659 --> 0:16:27.859 This Yeah, and look, we're going to have a different 0:16:27.859 --> 0:16:29.699 text policy to the one we had at the last election, 0:16:30.219 --> 0:16:32.779 very upfront about that. You know, in New Zealand, I 0:16:32.779 --> 0:16:36.259 think we've paced far too much emphasis on buying and 0:16:36.259 --> 0:16:39.539 selling houses amongst ourselves, pushing up the price so that 0:16:39.619 --> 0:16:42.339 potentially a whole generation of homeowners is being shut out 0:16:42.339 --> 0:16:46.539 of the housing market, and not enough emphasis on productive investment, 0:16:46.659 --> 0:16:49.379 on building businesses that employ people that allow them to 0:16:49.379 --> 0:16:52.259 earn more money. And our tax system currently encourages people 0:16:52.339 --> 0:16:54.499 to do that, you know, to basically go and just 0:16:54.579 --> 0:16:57.539 speculate in the residential property market. And that's not going 0:16:57.579 --> 0:16:59.659 to make us rich as a country. So I think 0:16:59.739 --> 0:17:03.059 our tech system does need to change. I understand why 0:17:03.139 --> 0:17:04.819 mums and dads have gone out and said, oh, I've 0:17:04.819 --> 0:17:07.099 got a house. Now I can use the equity I've 0:17:07.099 --> 0:17:08.819 got my house to buy our rental property and that 0:17:08.819 --> 0:17:11.379 that can be my retirement savings. I understand why people 0:17:11.419 --> 0:17:13.819 have done that. The tax systems actually encouraged them to 0:17:13.859 --> 0:17:18.059 do that, but that's not sustainable. If every person who 0:17:18.139 --> 0:17:21.179 owns a house now another one, the next generation of 0:17:21.219 --> 0:17:24.619 homeowners won't exist. So we have to do things differently. 0:17:25.059 --> 0:17:29.019 Do you think labor will ever escape the COVID curse? 0:17:30.219 --> 0:17:33.059 When you say COVID curse, I mean it's challenging because 0:17:33.059 --> 0:17:34.819 it was hard. You know, it was hard for the 0:17:34.859 --> 0:17:36.659 whole country, and it's actually really I find as a 0:17:36.699 --> 0:17:38.739 politician it's also quite hard to talk about it now 0:17:38.779 --> 0:17:41.259 because you know, did we get everything right during that time? 0:17:41.379 --> 0:17:41.499 No? 0:17:41.659 --> 0:17:43.939 I don't think we did get everything right. Were there 0:17:44.019 --> 0:17:46.339 lessons that we learned from that? Yes, of course, you know, 0:17:46.419 --> 0:17:48.379 no one had ever done this before, no government had 0:17:48.419 --> 0:17:52.019 ever encountered what we encountered with COVID. Undoubtedly there are 0:17:52.059 --> 0:17:54.139 things that if we could go back and do them differently, 0:17:54.179 --> 0:17:56.379 we would do some things differently. I can say that 0:17:56.419 --> 0:17:59.019 and then someone asked me a specific question. That'll be like, well, 0:17:59.179 --> 0:18:03.139 what about decision X, And so you explain the reasoning 0:18:03.179 --> 0:18:05.138 behind that decision and then they say, oh, so you 0:18:05.139 --> 0:18:06.899 don't think you made any mistakes. I said, no, I'm not. 0:18:06.939 --> 0:18:09.059 I'm just explaining why we made the decision we made 0:18:09.059 --> 0:18:12.499 at that time because there wasn't a rule book and 0:18:13.779 --> 0:18:15.819 it was hard. The management of the border was so 0:18:15.979 --> 0:18:18.539 hard because one of the ways that we avoided lockdowns, 0:18:18.619 --> 0:18:22.379 long prolonged lockdowns in New Zealand was by having the 0:18:22.419 --> 0:18:25.259 border restrictions in place that we had. But that meant 0:18:25.299 --> 0:18:27.339 that if you were traveling, if you had to travel 0:18:27.379 --> 0:18:30.939 for business, if you had family who were away overseas 0:18:30.939 --> 0:18:32.619 and they wanted to come back and see you, or 0:18:32.619 --> 0:18:34.859 you wanted to go and see them, you couldn't travel 0:18:34.899 --> 0:18:36.619 freely in the way that We're all used to being 0:18:36.659 --> 0:18:39.539