1 00:00:19,059 --> 00:00:19,379 Speaker 1: Kyota. 2 00:00:19,379 --> 00:00:22,139 Speaker 2: I at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page. 3 00:00:22,379 --> 00:00:25,299 Speaker 2: We're taking away breakover summer, but to help build the gap, 4 00:00:25,579 --> 00:00:28,699 Speaker 2: we're re issuing some of our most significant episodes of 5 00:00:28,739 --> 00:00:31,979 Speaker 2: twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front Page team. 6 00:00:32,138 --> 00:00:34,619 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening and we look forward to being back 7 00:00:34,659 --> 00:00:37,539 Speaker 2: with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six. 8 00:00:43,299 --> 00:00:43,699 Speaker 1: Kyota. 9 00:00:43,739 --> 00:00:46,979 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 10 00:00:47,059 --> 00:00:50,498 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. 11 00:00:53,899 --> 00:00:56,699 Speaker 1: From entering Parliament in two thousand and. 12 00:00:56,859 --> 00:00:59,979 Speaker 2: Eight to leading the country in twenty twenty three, Chris 13 00:01:00,019 --> 00:01:05,459 Speaker 2: Hipkins is no stranger to the spotlight. During COVID's beginnings, 14 00:01:05,539 --> 00:01:08,859 Speaker 2: he was known as a safe set of hands, tackling education, 15 00:01:09,139 --> 00:01:11,698 Speaker 2: health and becoming the Minister in charge of the COVID 16 00:01:11,739 --> 00:01:15,259 Speaker 2: response for a time. Now he is firmly setting his 17 00:01:15,419 --> 00:01:19,459 Speaker 2: sights on election twenty twenty six, but is he confident 18 00:01:19,539 --> 00:01:22,499 Speaker 2: he'll still be in Labour's driving seat when it rolls around? 19 00:01:23,139 --> 00:01:23,459 Speaker 1: Today? 20 00:01:23,459 --> 00:01:26,499 Speaker 2: On the Front Page, Hipkins joins us to discuss the 21 00:01:26,579 --> 00:01:29,859 Speaker 2: cost of living, vibes around Parliament and. 22 00:01:29,938 --> 00:01:32,019 Speaker 1: Whether he'll ever be able to shake COVID. 23 00:01:36,258 --> 00:01:39,779 Speaker 2: First off, Chris we had David Seymour on a wee 24 00:01:39,899 --> 00:01:41,738 Speaker 2: while back. We asked him if it'd be open to 25 00:01:41,818 --> 00:01:44,299 Speaker 2: working with you. He said that would require Chris Hipkins 26 00:01:44,339 --> 00:01:47,579 Speaker 2: to be working. He then made an odd reference calling 27 00:01:47,619 --> 00:01:51,939 Speaker 2: you Pooh Midas, which I can only assume is replacing 28 00:01:51,979 --> 00:01:56,059 Speaker 2: gold with pooh. So is everything you touched turned to 29 00:01:56,099 --> 00:01:56,779 Speaker 2: shit or something? 30 00:01:56,939 --> 00:01:58,499 Speaker 3: Oh? Look, I mean, I think this is just what 31 00:01:58,579 --> 00:02:01,059 Speaker 3: we're seeing from this government, you know, and the culture 32 00:02:01,059 --> 00:02:02,739 Speaker 3: of starts from the top. It starts in the Prime 33 00:02:02,779 --> 00:02:05,618 Speaker 3: Minister when St Peter's David Seymour down where they just 34 00:02:06,099 --> 00:02:10,579 Speaker 3: think that attacking people, belittling people, degrading people is what 35 00:02:10,699 --> 00:02:11,619 Speaker 3: leadership looks like. 36 00:02:11,939 --> 00:02:12,978 Speaker 4: I don't believe that. 37 00:02:13,299 --> 00:02:15,179 Speaker 3: I'm all for a bit of humor in politics, you know, 38 00:02:15,619 --> 00:02:17,619 Speaker 3: a little bit of a sledge now and then where 39 00:02:17,619 --> 00:02:20,019 Speaker 3: it's funny. That can to a bit of you know, 40 00:02:20,379 --> 00:02:23,579 Speaker 3: political engagement. But they're not very funny and they're also 41 00:02:23,659 --> 00:02:26,138 Speaker 3: not very good at it, so I think they should 42 00:02:26,139 --> 00:02:28,819 Speaker 3: just stick to actually doing what people ask them to do. 43 00:02:28,858 --> 00:02:30,859 Speaker 3: You know, the New Zealanders wanted them to fix the 44 00:02:30,858 --> 00:02:33,579 Speaker 3: cost of living crisis. They wanted them to, you know, 45 00:02:33,619 --> 00:02:36,219 Speaker 3: get the economy moving. They haven't done either. Of those things. 46 00:02:36,819 --> 00:02:39,738 Speaker 4: Maybe they should focus on that rather than sledging other people. 47 00:02:39,858 --> 00:02:41,979 Speaker 2: Well what about more recently, looks like you got the 48 00:02:41,978 --> 00:02:44,499 Speaker 2: prime ministers go to little He said. I'm not taking 49 00:02:44,578 --> 00:02:47,379 Speaker 2: any lectures from frickin' Chris Hipkins or the Labor Party, 50 00:02:47,739 --> 00:02:49,659 Speaker 2: but why are you bothering people lately? 51 00:02:49,739 --> 00:02:52,299 Speaker 1: Chris? Is it getting a bit testy in Parliament at 52 00:02:52,299 --> 00:02:52,698 Speaker 1: the minute. 53 00:02:52,819 --> 00:02:55,899 Speaker 3: I think it's getting The Government's certainly feeling the pressure, 54 00:02:56,099 --> 00:02:58,939 Speaker 3: and they should be feeling the pressure because they made 55 00:02:58,978 --> 00:03:01,899 Speaker 3: people a whole lot of promises that they haven't delivered on. 56 00:03:02,099 --> 00:03:04,379 Speaker 3: But I remember standing next to Christopher Luxan during the 57 00:03:04,418 --> 00:03:06,298 Speaker 3: leader's debates where he said that, you know, families with 58 00:03:06,379 --> 00:03:08,019 Speaker 3: kids were going to be two hundred and fifty dollars 59 00:03:08,059 --> 00:03:10,419 Speaker 3: a fortnight better off if he became prime minister. And 60 00:03:11,019 --> 00:03:14,659 Speaker 3: they haven't identified one single family that's two hundred and 61 00:03:14,659 --> 00:03:18,139 Speaker 3: fifty dollars a fortnight better off, and food prices are 62 00:03:18,179 --> 00:03:20,939 Speaker 3: still going up, you know, households are still really feeling 63 00:03:21,019 --> 00:03:22,939 Speaker 3: the squeeze, and so I think the government are feeling 64 00:03:22,978 --> 00:03:25,419 Speaker 3: that pressure. Really, they shouldn't have made promises that they 65 00:03:25,418 --> 00:03:27,339 Speaker 3: didn't intend to keep, and so I think that's why 66 00:03:27,379 --> 00:03:28,738 Speaker 3: they're lashing out at everybody else. 67 00:03:28,739 --> 00:03:29,699 Speaker 4: They're just trying to find. 68 00:03:29,538 --> 00:03:32,298 Speaker 3: People to blame for that, And you know, on the 69 00:03:32,339 --> 00:03:34,619 Speaker 3: other side, there's a lot of pressure coming on us 70 00:03:34,659 --> 00:03:37,659 Speaker 3: to say, well, what would Labour do differently? Shear your policies, 71 00:03:38,219 --> 00:03:39,859 Speaker 3: But the point that I've been making to people is 72 00:03:40,099 --> 00:03:42,299 Speaker 3: I'm not going to put policies out there unless I 73 00:03:42,379 --> 00:03:44,259 Speaker 3: know that I can deliver on them, because I don't 74 00:03:44,259 --> 00:03:46,139 Speaker 3: want to end up two years down the track and 75 00:03:46,219 --> 00:03:48,659 Speaker 3: find myself in the same position that they're currently in, 76 00:03:48,939 --> 00:03:51,179 Speaker 3: where I've promised stuff that I can't deliver. I think 77 00:03:51,499 --> 00:03:53,859 Speaker 3: we've had way too much of that in New Zealand politics, 78 00:03:53,899 --> 00:03:58,459 Speaker 3: governments of all stripes making big, sweeping promises for elections 79 00:03:58,939 --> 00:04:01,539 Speaker 3: and they're not delivering on them. So we're keeping up 80 00:04:01,579 --> 00:04:04,819 Speaker 3: how to dry on the policy front deliberately because when 81 00:04:04,899 --> 00:04:06,739 Speaker 3: we do announce it, I want to know that we 82 00:04:06,779 --> 00:04:09,499 Speaker 3: can do it, and we won't be able to make 83 00:04:09,499 --> 00:04:11,979 Speaker 3: that judgment till closer to the election once we see 84 00:04:12,139 --> 00:04:13,739 Speaker 3: the shape the economies in and so on. 85 00:04:13,939 --> 00:04:15,299 Speaker 2: So you basically do want to have a look at 86 00:04:15,339 --> 00:04:18,019 Speaker 2: the books, maybe by next budget, and then you'll start 87 00:04:18,179 --> 00:04:20,259 Speaker 2: kind of trickling out stuff is that how it works 88 00:04:20,259 --> 00:04:20,779 Speaker 2: in an election. 89 00:04:20,979 --> 00:04:23,178 Speaker 3: It is it's kind of about looking at the government's books, 90 00:04:23,219 --> 00:04:25,259 Speaker 3: but it's also about making sure we're doing the work now, 91 00:04:25,339 --> 00:04:27,539 Speaker 3: and opposition you don't unlike in government. You know, you 92 00:04:27,579 --> 00:04:29,498 Speaker 3: don't have the entire public service doing. 93 00:04:29,299 --> 00:04:30,979 Speaker 4: The work for you. You've got to do the work. 94 00:04:31,219 --> 00:04:33,339 Speaker 3: So we're looking at, you know, what would things cost, 95 00:04:33,419 --> 00:04:35,939 Speaker 3: how would we actually deliver them. I think one of 96 00:04:36,299 --> 00:04:39,059 Speaker 3: the valid criticisms of us last time we were in 97 00:04:39,099 --> 00:04:41,739 Speaker 3: opposition was that we had some really good ideas, but 98 00:04:41,779 --> 00:04:44,379 Speaker 3: we hadn't worked through the detail of exactly how would 99 00:04:44,379 --> 00:04:46,939 Speaker 3: we do that. And then when we got into government, 100 00:04:46,939 --> 00:04:48,619 Speaker 3: we found that some of the things that we said 101 00:04:48,659 --> 00:04:51,019 Speaker 3: we were going to do very well intentioned, we didn't 102 00:04:51,019 --> 00:04:52,739 Speaker 3: have a clear plan for how we would do it. 103 00:04:52,779 --> 00:04:55,139 Speaker 3: And I think the same thing has happened to this government. 104 00:04:55,459 --> 00:04:57,899 Speaker 3: They've made promises with no plan on how they're actually 105 00:04:57,939 --> 00:04:59,459 Speaker 3: going to do it, and I don't want to be 106 00:04:59,499 --> 00:05:01,459 Speaker 3: in that position. So we're going to take our time. 107 00:05:01,539 --> 00:05:03,219 Speaker 3: I know people are eager to hear what we want 108 00:05:03,259 --> 00:05:05,539 Speaker 3: to do, but I'm going to make sure that when 109 00:05:05,579 --> 00:05:07,419 Speaker 3: I do go out there and say label will do X, 110 00:05:07,459 --> 00:05:09,499 Speaker 3: I can then answer all the questions about it, and 111 00:05:09,539 --> 00:05:11,459 Speaker 3: I can tell people how we're going to do it 112 00:05:11,699 --> 00:05:13,619 Speaker 3: so that they know that the promises we're making a 113 00:05:13,699 --> 00:05:17,299 Speaker 3: credible and ones that they can rely on us delivering on. 114 00:05:20,259 --> 00:05:23,379 Speaker 5: Well, mister speaker, hasn't it been a shambolic year for. 115 00:05:23,379 --> 00:05:25,219 Speaker 2: The Labor Party, hasn't it? 116 00:05:25,259 --> 00:05:26,059 Speaker 4: And I have to. 117 00:05:26,059 --> 00:05:29,019 Speaker 2: Say, has there ever been a leader of the opposition 118 00:05:29,139 --> 00:05:33,059 Speaker 2: with less substance than Chris Hipkins? Because what you get, 119 00:05:33,219 --> 00:05:35,339 Speaker 2: what you get is a lot of carping. What you 120 00:05:35,419 --> 00:05:37,499 Speaker 2: get is a lot of points of order, and you 121 00:05:37,579 --> 00:05:39,939 Speaker 2: get a lot of wishy washy, don't you It's a 122 00:05:39,939 --> 00:05:41,299 Speaker 2: lot of wishy washy. 123 00:05:41,459 --> 00:05:45,539 Speaker 5: Because beneath it all, they have no policies, zero policies, 124 00:05:45,699 --> 00:05:47,619 Speaker 5: and they have no plan. 125 00:05:50,939 --> 00:05:53,019 Speaker 2: What is something that the party's tinkering away in the 126 00:05:53,059 --> 00:05:54,019 Speaker 2: background at the moment. 127 00:05:54,419 --> 00:05:55,579 Speaker 4: We're looking at a lot of things. 128 00:05:55,619 --> 00:05:57,259 Speaker 3: I mean, I think if you look at what is 129 00:05:57,299 --> 00:05:59,779 Speaker 3: important to us, I said when I took over from 130 00:05:59,859 --> 00:06:02,059 Speaker 3: Jacinda that I wanted to see Labor get back to 131 00:06:02,499 --> 00:06:05,339 Speaker 3: the core sort of things that are important to. 132 00:06:05,499 --> 00:06:08,019 Speaker 4: Labor, fact, basic, back to basics jobs. 133 00:06:08,459 --> 00:06:10,139 Speaker 3: You know, it's in the name of the Labor Party, 134 00:06:10,179 --> 00:06:12,099 Speaker 3: That's what the Labor Party was founded on the basis 135 00:06:12,099 --> 00:06:14,899 Speaker 3: of you know, good jobs that mean people get well 136 00:06:14,939 --> 00:06:17,059 Speaker 3: paid and could have a better life. That's why the 137 00:06:17,099 --> 00:06:19,859 Speaker 3: Labor Party exists. So that's that got to be front 138 00:06:19,859 --> 00:06:22,339 Speaker 3: and center for us. And at a time when unemployment's 139 00:06:22,339 --> 00:06:26,099 Speaker 3: going up, jobs, jobs, jobs is very very important. So 140 00:06:26,459 --> 00:06:29,339 Speaker 3: jobs health, because you know, if you don't have access 141 00:06:29,379 --> 00:06:32,019 Speaker 3: to good quality health care, then you're going to your 142 00:06:32,059 --> 00:06:34,579 Speaker 3: options in life are going to be limited. And homes. 143 00:06:35,219 --> 00:06:37,819 Speaker 3: Everyone deserves a place to call home. And if you 144 00:06:37,819 --> 00:06:39,659 Speaker 3: look at so many of the other issues we deal with, 145 00:06:39,859 --> 00:06:41,659 Speaker 3: it stems back to one of those three things, or 146 00:06:41,699 --> 00:06:44,539 Speaker 3: sometimes a combination of those three things not not being 147 00:06:44,579 --> 00:06:46,659 Speaker 3: where we need them to be. So you know, kids 148 00:06:46,659 --> 00:06:49,299 Speaker 3: not going to school. Well, if your family's moving around 149 00:06:49,299 --> 00:06:52,139 Speaker 3: houses all the time because they haven't got, you know, 150 00:06:52,219 --> 00:06:55,259 Speaker 3: somewhere that they can put down roots, that's actually a 151 00:06:55,299 --> 00:06:57,819 Speaker 3: big part of the problem. Kids who are getting into 152 00:06:57,859 --> 00:07:01,099 Speaker 3: trouble in many cases, it's because they're living transiently. So 153 00:07:01,219 --> 00:07:04,499 Speaker 3: let's make sure everyone has a home. And then I 154 00:07:04,499 --> 00:07:07,739 Speaker 3: think more recently, you know, we were expecting that once 155 00:07:07,739 --> 00:07:10,099 Speaker 3: inflation was back down within the target band, that cost 156 00:07:10,099 --> 00:07:12,139 Speaker 3: of living would sort of drop off. The radar almost 157 00:07:12,259 --> 00:07:14,899 Speaker 3: it hasn't. Cost of living is getting worse. So I 158 00:07:14,899 --> 00:07:16,819 Speaker 3: think we need real action on the cost of living, 159 00:07:16,899 --> 00:07:18,259 Speaker 3: and it's going to have to be more than just 160 00:07:18,299 --> 00:07:21,059 Speaker 3: shouting at SOO markets and shouting at banks. It's going 161 00:07:21,139 --> 00:07:23,939 Speaker 3: to have to be things that government can actually do 162 00:07:24,499 --> 00:07:26,339 Speaker 3: that will tackle the cost of living for people. 163 00:07:26,459 --> 00:07:26,939 Speaker 1: Well, when it. 164 00:07:26,899 --> 00:07:29,899 Speaker 2: Comes to that, I was doing some research about it, 165 00:07:29,979 --> 00:07:32,339 Speaker 2: and I mean, how do we make sure that the 166 00:07:32,339 --> 00:07:36,219 Speaker 2: price of butter doesn't get anywhere like any more ridiculous? 167 00:07:36,259 --> 00:07:36,819 Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? 168 00:07:36,859 --> 00:07:40,619 Speaker 2: In the Great Depression, I know that the government introduced 169 00:07:41,459 --> 00:07:44,739 Speaker 2: subsidies for farmers and agriculture that kind of dropped off 170 00:07:44,739 --> 00:07:45,739 Speaker 2: in the seventies and eighties. 171 00:07:45,779 --> 00:07:47,499 Speaker 1: Why can't we do something like that again. 172 00:07:47,979 --> 00:07:50,299 Speaker 3: Ultimately, we do live in a global market for that, 173 00:07:50,499 --> 00:07:52,779 Speaker 3: and the real challenge for us is if we started 174 00:07:52,819 --> 00:07:55,699 Speaker 3: to do that sort of thing here, we potentially limit 175 00:07:55,739 --> 00:07:59,259 Speaker 3: our ability to then sell into the international market. It 176 00:07:59,259 --> 00:08:02,139 Speaker 3: would compromise our ability to trade internationally if we brought 177 00:08:02,179 --> 00:08:05,379 Speaker 3: back subsidies. I think there are real questions about our 178 00:08:05,379 --> 00:08:08,139 Speaker 3: New Zealander is paying too much for butter. Everyone's fixated 179 00:08:08,139 --> 00:08:10,459 Speaker 3: on but I've never spoken so much about butter in. 180 00:08:10,379 --> 00:08:13,379 Speaker 4: My life, as I have in the last week, you know. 181 00:08:13,419 --> 00:08:16,059 Speaker 3: But again the government sort of shouting at Fontia is 182 00:08:16,059 --> 00:08:17,859 Speaker 3: not going to solve the problem. I think there are 183 00:08:17,899 --> 00:08:20,419 Speaker 3: real issues around the super market sector, around whether we've 184 00:08:20,459 --> 00:08:24,099 Speaker 3: got enough competition in the supermarket sector. But again just 185 00:08:24,219 --> 00:08:26,779 Speaker 3: talking about it and admiring the problem, it's not going 186 00:08:26,819 --> 00:08:29,419 Speaker 3: to solve it. So what's the government actually going to 187 00:08:29,499 --> 00:08:34,059 Speaker 3: do in that space to get better competition in supermarkets 188 00:08:34,379 --> 00:08:36,099 Speaker 3: and how we're going to support New Zealanders to have 189 00:08:36,099 --> 00:08:38,739 Speaker 3: a higher standard of living. Prices will go up and down. 190 00:08:38,859 --> 00:08:41,019 Speaker 3: You know, if you think about fruit and veggies, for example, 191 00:08:41,338 --> 00:08:43,819 Speaker 3: the weather has an impact. You know, we had our 192 00:08:43,899 --> 00:08:46,499 Speaker 3: cyclone in the first few weeks that I was Prime 193 00:08:46,499 --> 00:08:49,019 Speaker 3: Minister that wiped out a huge amount of our fresh 194 00:08:49,019 --> 00:08:51,659 Speaker 3: produce across the East Coast to the North Island, and 195 00:08:51,699 --> 00:08:53,379 Speaker 3: that meant that that actually was one of the things 196 00:08:53,379 --> 00:08:56,419 Speaker 3: that forced up fruit and veggie prices. The government couldn't 197 00:08:56,458 --> 00:08:59,858 Speaker 3: fundamentally change that, but we do have to make sure 198 00:08:59,899 --> 00:09:03,138 Speaker 3: we're supporting families through what is a really tough economic 199 00:09:03,259 --> 00:09:06,419 Speaker 3: cycle at the moment, so looking at their incomes, looking 200 00:09:06,458 --> 00:09:11,019 Speaker 3: at how we can contain other costs public transport, which 201 00:09:11,059 --> 00:09:14,258 Speaker 3: the government have cut subsidies for, is going up hugely. 202 00:09:14,578 --> 00:09:16,979 Speaker 3: Families on low incomes are more likely to rely on 203 00:09:17,019 --> 00:09:20,579 Speaker 3: public transport, and now they're finding that their cost of transport, 204 00:09:20,699 --> 00:09:23,378 Speaker 3: the cost of getting to and from work, is going up. 205 00:09:24,059 --> 00:09:26,779 Speaker 3: That's money that they then can't spend non food. So 206 00:09:26,939 --> 00:09:29,819 Speaker 3: for those families that are living hand to mouth, everything matters. 207 00:09:30,259 --> 00:09:32,579 Speaker 3: And regardless of what the price of butter is doing, 208 00:09:32,618 --> 00:09:36,499 Speaker 3: the real question is what's the overall family expenditure doing, 209 00:09:36,539 --> 00:09:39,299 Speaker 3: you know, because are there other areas where we can 210 00:09:39,338 --> 00:09:41,939 Speaker 3: ease some pressure on families and things like public transport? 211 00:09:42,098 --> 00:09:44,218 Speaker 3: You know, there are good examples of things governments can do. 212 00:09:51,419 --> 00:09:54,499 Speaker 2: What about the Greens approach? What about free dental, free 213 00:09:54,578 --> 00:09:56,059 Speaker 2: GP visits. 214 00:09:56,498 --> 00:09:58,939 Speaker 1: And what was the third? Free childcare? Seems like a 215 00:09:58,939 --> 00:09:59,579 Speaker 1: good idea. 216 00:09:59,659 --> 00:10:01,019 Speaker 3: So if you look at what we were talking about 217 00:10:01,019 --> 00:10:02,458 Speaker 3: at the last election, you know, we had a plan 218 00:10:02,539 --> 00:10:05,499 Speaker 3: to start delivering free dental. The reason that we were 219 00:10:05,539 --> 00:10:07,419 Speaker 3: setting that out over a period of time is we 220 00:10:07,458 --> 00:10:09,858 Speaker 3: don't have the dentists to be able to just you know, 221 00:10:09,899 --> 00:10:11,859 Speaker 3: turn on a tap and say right, dentals free. That 222 00:10:11,899 --> 00:10:14,459 Speaker 3: would be hard because we wouldn't have enough dentists, so 223 00:10:14,899 --> 00:10:17,298 Speaker 3: over time it's absolutely achievable. 224 00:10:17,338 --> 00:10:17,539 Speaker 4: You know. 225 00:10:17,578 --> 00:10:20,819 Speaker 3: I did this work as prim to identify, yes, we 226 00:10:20,858 --> 00:10:24,338 Speaker 3: can have free dental here, and the case of GP visits, 227 00:10:24,978 --> 00:10:28,299 Speaker 3: I wouldn't necessarily start there. I do think that making 228 00:10:28,299 --> 00:10:30,659 Speaker 3: it easier to go to the GP is really important. 229 00:10:31,299 --> 00:10:34,218 Speaker 3: So we might not get to free immediately. At the moment, 230 00:10:34,218 --> 00:10:36,778 Speaker 3: it's costing some families one hundred bucks for a GP visit. 231 00:10:37,498 --> 00:10:39,578 Speaker 3: I don't think that's okay. I think we've got to 232 00:10:39,578 --> 00:10:41,539 Speaker 3: deal with that. But there's things that we can do. 233 00:10:41,578 --> 00:10:44,779 Speaker 3: Even before that, we abolished the five dollar co payment 234 00:10:44,819 --> 00:10:50,299 Speaker 3: for prescriptions because if people were not picking up their prescriptions, 235 00:10:50,419 --> 00:10:52,259 Speaker 3: they were more likely to end up having to go 236 00:10:52,299 --> 00:10:55,138 Speaker 3: to a GP or go to a hospital emergency room 237 00:10:55,338 --> 00:10:58,458 Speaker 3: than if they went to the pharmacist, got whatever medications 238 00:10:58,498 --> 00:11:00,939 Speaker 3: they need and stayed healthy in the first place. So 239 00:11:01,139 --> 00:11:03,458 Speaker 3: we did more than just that. We also said to pharmacists, 240 00:11:03,498 --> 00:11:08,338 Speaker 3: you can give out some medications without prescription for winter ailments. 241 00:11:08,738 --> 00:11:11,058 Speaker 3: And as a result, because people could go to the pharmacy, 242 00:11:11,338 --> 00:11:13,699 Speaker 3: they didn't end up going to the doctor because they 243 00:11:13,699 --> 00:11:16,139 Speaker 3: didn't need to. And I think there's a lot more 244 00:11:16,139 --> 00:11:18,419 Speaker 3: we can do in that area. You know, pharmacies do 245 00:11:18,578 --> 00:11:21,858 Speaker 3: a job around the country. When I became Minister of 246 00:11:21,899 --> 00:11:26,418 Speaker 3: Health briefly, I learned so much more about what pharmacists 247 00:11:26,419 --> 00:11:29,579 Speaker 3: can do. And I think that those opportunities to provide 248 00:11:29,699 --> 00:11:33,579 Speaker 3: better preventative health care are just all over the place. 249 00:11:33,899 --> 00:11:36,299 Speaker 3: Keep people healthy and the health system will be under 250 00:11:36,338 --> 00:11:37,139 Speaker 3: a lot less pressure. 251 00:11:37,259 --> 00:11:38,778 Speaker 1: And what about that free childcare? 252 00:11:38,939 --> 00:11:41,979 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I've always been committed to that. So when 253 00:11:42,019 --> 00:11:44,259 Speaker 3: I was working for Trevor Mallard as the Minister of 254 00:11:44,379 --> 00:11:47,779 Speaker 3: Education back in a long time ago now, I was 255 00:11:47,819 --> 00:11:51,419 Speaker 3: working on implementing twenty hours free early childhood education for 256 00:11:51,498 --> 00:11:54,179 Speaker 3: three and four year olds. As Prime Minister, I extended 257 00:11:54,179 --> 00:11:57,138 Speaker 3: that to two year olds. The current government have canceled 258 00:11:57,179 --> 00:12:00,179 Speaker 3: the extension to two year olds unfortunately, but I do 259 00:12:00,218 --> 00:12:05,378 Speaker 3: think progressively increasing more access to free early childhood education. A. 260 00:12:05,539 --> 00:12:07,699 Speaker 3: It's got benefits for the kids because we know kids 261 00:12:07,738 --> 00:12:10,779 Speaker 3: who have been in early childhood education quality early childhood 262 00:12:10,858 --> 00:12:13,459 Speaker 3: education do better when they go to school. But it 263 00:12:13,498 --> 00:12:16,738 Speaker 3: also means that for parents it's a huge easing of 264 00:12:16,819 --> 00:12:20,299 Speaker 3: cost and it allows them to get back into work. 265 00:12:21,299 --> 00:12:25,139 Speaker 3: And it will benefit women more than men, but there 266 00:12:25,139 --> 00:12:27,218 Speaker 3: are some men who will benefit from that. Too, so 267 00:12:27,419 --> 00:12:29,819 Speaker 3: women are more likely to be the person who is 268 00:12:29,939 --> 00:12:33,819 Speaker 3: at home looking after the kids, but increasingly now in 269 00:12:33,858 --> 00:12:36,939 Speaker 3: this day and age, there are more dads doing that too, 270 00:12:37,059 --> 00:12:40,339 Speaker 3: and free early childhood education really helps them to be 271 00:12:40,379 --> 00:12:42,258 Speaker 3: able to go out and earn money as well as 272 00:12:42,299 --> 00:12:43,259 Speaker 3: looking after the kids. 273 00:12:43,618 --> 00:12:46,218 Speaker 1: Right, So what's stopping us from just doing it tomorrow? 274 00:12:46,299 --> 00:12:48,259 Speaker 1: Is it the money? Do we need to tax the retch? 275 00:12:48,659 --> 00:12:52,299 Speaker 3: We could have done twenty hours free early childhood education 276 00:12:52,858 --> 00:12:56,378 Speaker 3: for two year olds and we had done that. Actually 277 00:12:56,419 --> 00:12:59,738 Speaker 3: the government took the money away from that to fund 278 00:12:59,779 --> 00:13:02,539 Speaker 3: their Family Boost, which has been an absolute flop. You know, 279 00:13:02,539 --> 00:13:05,019 Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty three families I think have actually 280 00:13:05,098 --> 00:13:07,739 Speaker 3: got the full amount of the Family Boost, which you 281 00:13:07,779 --> 00:13:09,779 Speaker 3: knowere was every family with a two year old would 282 00:13:09,819 --> 00:13:11,498 Speaker 3: have got the twenty hours free and they wouldn't have 283 00:13:11,498 --> 00:13:13,099 Speaker 3: had to fill in a form to get it. It 284 00:13:13,179 --> 00:13:16,419 Speaker 3: just would have happened automatically, So big saving for the family. 285 00:13:16,539 --> 00:13:19,259 Speaker 3: So there is money there to extend that out over 286 00:13:19,338 --> 00:13:23,219 Speaker 3: time to more so you could potentially, you know, increase 287 00:13:23,259 --> 00:13:25,259 Speaker 3: the number of hours or increase the age groups who 288 00:13:25,299 --> 00:13:27,979 Speaker 3: are eligible. I think that's something that we should certainly 289 00:13:28,019 --> 00:13:30,179 Speaker 3: aspire to and we can afford that as a country, 290 00:13:30,218 --> 00:13:33,219 Speaker 3: if we make the right choices, bearing in mind that 291 00:13:33,299 --> 00:13:36,219 Speaker 3: if we've got kids in early childhood education and the 292 00:13:36,259 --> 00:13:38,579 Speaker 3: result of that is that their parents are then going 293 00:13:38,699 --> 00:13:40,738 Speaker 3: back to work, those parents are going to be earning 294 00:13:40,738 --> 00:13:42,979 Speaker 3: money and paying taxes, which is a good thing for 295 00:13:43,019 --> 00:13:45,939 Speaker 3: government because it means that ultimately governments and you know, yes, 296 00:13:45,939 --> 00:13:47,858 Speaker 3: we're spending more money on ECA, but we're getting more 297 00:13:47,899 --> 00:13:50,179 Speaker 3: money because of the parents earning more money. 298 00:13:50,259 --> 00:13:53,059 Speaker 2: What do you think about taxing the rech I think 299 00:13:53,139 --> 00:13:55,059 Speaker 2: it's a I don't like the phrase. 300 00:13:55,179 --> 00:13:57,338 Speaker 3: And the reason I don't like the phrase is because 301 00:13:57,338 --> 00:13:59,858 Speaker 3: I think that tax fundamentally should come down to fairness. 302 00:14:00,259 --> 00:14:03,778 Speaker 3: Everyone should pay their affair share, Everyone should make a contribution. 303 00:14:04,299 --> 00:14:08,699 Speaker 3: We all benefit from health education, you know, the infrastructure 304 00:14:08,699 --> 00:14:11,379 Speaker 3: that we build, things like roads, we all benefit from that. 305 00:14:11,539 --> 00:14:13,819 Speaker 3: We all benefit from having a police force, we all 306 00:14:13,939 --> 00:14:18,019 Speaker 3: benefit from having a good justice system, we all benefit 307 00:14:18,059 --> 00:14:21,739 Speaker 3: from having a defense. So we should all contribute to 308 00:14:21,779 --> 00:14:24,699 Speaker 3: the cost of those things. Then the tax system should 309 00:14:24,739 --> 00:14:27,219 Speaker 3: be fair, which means those on higher incomes, and I 310 00:14:27,259 --> 00:14:29,979 Speaker 3: am one of those people should pay more. And I'm 311 00:14:30,059 --> 00:14:33,419 Speaker 3: quite proud to say that I'm happy to pay more 312 00:14:33,459 --> 00:14:34,779 Speaker 3: as someone on a higher income. 313 00:14:34,899 --> 00:14:37,339 Speaker 4: I accept that. You know, it's a great tagline. 314 00:14:37,459 --> 00:14:39,859 Speaker 1: You know it's on a poster, if. 315 00:14:39,739 --> 00:14:42,258 Speaker 3: It's on a poster, but it kind of it creates 316 00:14:42,299 --> 00:14:46,459 Speaker 3: a culture of resentment about taxes. Taxes aren't a punishment, 317 00:14:47,139 --> 00:14:49,619 Speaker 3: you know, Texas are the contribution that we all make 318 00:14:49,859 --> 00:14:51,499 Speaker 3: to living in a decent society. 319 00:14:54,019 --> 00:14:57,059 Speaker 5: And now Pole, we asked do you support or oppost 320 00:14:57,059 --> 00:15:00,619 Speaker 5: the introduction of a capital gains tax on properties other 321 00:15:00,739 --> 00:15:04,099 Speaker 5: than the family home. Forty six percent of voters are 322 00:15:04,099 --> 00:15:07,939 Speaker 5: in support of the idea, while forty one percent oppose it, 323 00:15:08,179 --> 00:15:13,099 Speaker 5: and thirteen percent either don't know or preferred not to say. 324 00:15:14,259 --> 00:15:16,099 Speaker 1: I've read something published on Aaron said. 325 00:15:16,099 --> 00:15:18,299 Speaker 2: This was in December, though, and it suggested that you 326 00:15:18,419 --> 00:15:20,979 Speaker 2: will be care and painting on a capital gains tax 327 00:15:21,059 --> 00:15:23,819 Speaker 2: at the next election, and that quote details would be 328 00:15:23,859 --> 00:15:26,419 Speaker 2: announced as early as mid next year. 329 00:15:26,539 --> 00:15:29,779 Speaker 1: Now it's past mid next year. Now it's July. Now 330 00:15:29,899 --> 00:15:31,379 Speaker 1: any word on that how that might look? 331 00:15:31,459 --> 00:15:33,619 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I've said that we'll announce our policy on 332 00:15:33,739 --> 00:15:36,499 Speaker 3: that before the end of this year because I think 333 00:15:36,539 --> 00:15:38,099 Speaker 3: it is important. You know that that is a big 334 00:15:38,139 --> 00:15:40,699 Speaker 3: policy area. People want to know where they stand. Certainly, 335 00:15:40,699 --> 00:15:42,779 Speaker 3: people to my left, you know, on the left of 336 00:15:42,779 --> 00:15:47,139 Speaker 3: politics get really excited about tax debates, and I understand that, 337 00:15:47,259 --> 00:15:49,819 Speaker 3: but we also need to talk about how we get 338 00:15:49,819 --> 00:15:53,779 Speaker 3: people into good, well paid jobs, how we generate more 339 00:15:53,819 --> 00:15:56,739 Speaker 3: wealth for the country, and we need to do that 340 00:15:56,899 --> 00:15:59,739 Speaker 3: as well as ensuring that the benefits of that are 341 00:16:00,259 --> 00:16:03,819 Speaker 3: fairly shared by everybody. And you can't have one side 342 00:16:03,859 --> 00:16:06,658 Speaker 3: of that debate without the other. So tex is one 343 00:16:06,659 --> 00:16:09,099 Speaker 3: of the ways we ensure that everybody gets the affairs 344 00:16:09,179 --> 00:16:11,299 Speaker 3: year and pays the affairs yere. But we've also got 345 00:16:11,299 --> 00:16:14,099 Speaker 3: to make sure that we're generating good, well paid jobs, 346 00:16:14,499 --> 00:16:16,459 Speaker 3: that we've got businesses who are doing well so they 347 00:16:16,459 --> 00:16:18,898 Speaker 3: can employ more people. And I don't think you can 348 00:16:18,979 --> 00:16:20,899 Speaker 3: separate those two things. I think those two things do 349 00:16:21,019 --> 00:16:21,859 Speaker 3: need to go together. 350 00:16:22,019 --> 00:16:25,299 Speaker 1: So you will commit to yes or no by the 351 00:16:25,379 --> 00:16:25,699 Speaker 1: end of. 352 00:16:25,659 --> 00:16:27,859 Speaker 3: This Yeah, and look, we're going to have a different 353 00:16:27,859 --> 00:16:29,699 Speaker 3: text policy to the one we had at the last election, 354 00:16:30,219 --> 00:16:32,779 Speaker 3: very upfront about that. You know, in New Zealand, I 355 00:16:32,779 --> 00:16:36,259 Speaker 3: think we've paced far too much emphasis on buying and 356 00:16:36,259 --> 00:16:39,539 Speaker 3: selling houses amongst ourselves, pushing up the price so that 357 00:16:39,619 --> 00:16:42,339 Speaker 3: potentially a whole generation of homeowners is being shut out 358 00:16:42,339 --> 00:16:46,539 Speaker 3: of the housing market, and not enough emphasis on productive investment, 359 00:16:46,659 --> 00:16:49,379 Speaker 3: on building businesses that employ people that allow them to 360 00:16:49,379 --> 00:16:52,259 Speaker 3: earn more money. And our tax system currently encourages people 361 00:16:52,339 --> 00:16:54,499 Speaker 3: to do that, you know, to basically go and just 362 00:16:54,579 --> 00:16:57,539 Speaker 3: speculate in the residential property market. And that's not going 363 00:16:57,579 --> 00:16:59,659 Speaker 3: to make us rich as a country. So I think 364 00:16:59,739 --> 00:17:03,059 Speaker 3: our tech system does need to change. I understand why 365 00:17:03,139 --> 00:17:04,819 Speaker 3: mums and dads have gone out and said, oh, I've 366 00:17:04,819 --> 00:17:07,099 Speaker 3: got a house. Now I can use the equity I've 367 00:17:07,099 --> 00:17:08,819 Speaker 3: got my house to buy our rental property and that 368 00:17:08,819 --> 00:17:11,379 Speaker 3: that can be my retirement savings. I understand why people 369 00:17:11,419 --> 00:17:13,819 Speaker 3: have done that. The tax systems actually encouraged them to 370 00:17:13,859 --> 00:17:18,059 Speaker 3: do that, but that's not sustainable. If every person who 371 00:17:18,139 --> 00:17:21,179 Speaker 3: owns a house now another one, the next generation of 372 00:17:21,219 --> 00:17:24,619 Speaker 3: homeowners won't exist. So we have to do things differently. 373 00:17:25,059 --> 00:17:29,019 Speaker 2: Do you think labor will ever escape the COVID curse? 374 00:17:30,219 --> 00:17:33,059 Speaker 3: When you say COVID curse, I mean it's challenging because 375 00:17:33,059 --> 00:17:34,819 Speaker 3: it was hard. You know, it was hard for the 376 00:17:34,859 --> 00:17:36,659 Speaker 3: whole country, and it's actually really I find as a 377 00:17:36,699 --> 00:17:38,739 Speaker 3: politician it's also quite hard to talk about it now 378 00:17:38,779 --> 00:17:41,259 Speaker 3: because you know, did we get everything right during that time? 379 00:17:41,379 --> 00:17:41,499 Speaker 4: No? 380 00:17:41,659 --> 00:17:43,939 Speaker 3: I don't think we did get everything right. Were there 381 00:17:44,019 --> 00:17:46,339 Speaker 3: lessons that we learned from that? Yes, of course, you know, 382 00:17:46,419 --> 00:17:48,379 Speaker 3: no one had ever done this before, no government had 383 00:17:48,419 --> 00:17:52,019 Speaker 3: ever encountered what we encountered with COVID. Undoubtedly there are 384 00:17:52,059 --> 00:17:54,139 Speaker 3: things that if we could go back and do them differently, 385 00:17:54,179 --> 00:17:56,379 Speaker 3: we would do some things differently. I can say that 386 00:17:56,419 --> 00:17:59,019 Speaker 3: and then someone asked me a specific question. That'll be like, well, 387 00:17:59,179 --> 00:18:03,139 Speaker 3: what about decision X, And so you explain the reasoning 388 00:18:03,179 --> 00:18:05,138 Speaker 3: behind that decision and then they say, oh, so you 389 00:18:05,139 --> 00:18:06,899 Speaker 3: don't think you made any mistakes. I said, no, I'm not. 390 00:18:06,939 --> 00:18:09,059 Speaker 3: I'm just explaining why we made the decision we made 391 00:18:09,059 --> 00:18:12,499 Speaker 3: at that time because there wasn't a rule book and 392 00:18:13,779 --> 00:18:15,819 Speaker 3: it was hard. The management of the border was so 393 00:18:15,979 --> 00:18:18,539 Speaker 3: hard because one of the ways that we avoided lockdowns, 394 00:18:18,619 --> 00:18:22,379 Speaker 3: long prolonged lockdowns in New Zealand was by having the 395 00:18:22,419 --> 00:18:25,259 Speaker 3: border restrictions in place that we had. But that meant 396 00:18:25,299 --> 00:18:27,339 Speaker 3: that if you were traveling, if you had to travel 397 00:18:27,379 --> 00:18:30,939 Speaker 3: for business, if you had family who were away overseas 398 00:18:30,939 --> 00:18:32,619 Speaker 3: and they wanted to come back and see you, or 399 00:18:32,619 --> 00:18:34,859 Speaker 3: you wanted to go and see them, you couldn't travel 400 00:18:34,899 --> 00:18:36,619 Speaker 3: freely in the way that We're all used to being 401 00:18:36,659 --> 00:18:39,539 Speaker 3: able to travel and that was really. 402 00:18:39,299 --> 00:18:43,259 Speaker 2: Really hard, and some people have just gotten over the 403 00:18:43,339 --> 00:18:45,259 Speaker 2: fact that we didn't travel for a couple of years, 404 00:18:45,259 --> 00:18:47,219 Speaker 2: and some people are still holding onto it, it seems. 405 00:18:47,259 --> 00:18:49,259 Speaker 2: I mean, every time it must come up, you must, 406 00:18:49,619 --> 00:18:53,659 Speaker 2: you must a little person inside you must just sigh. 407 00:18:53,579 --> 00:18:54,099 Speaker 4: A little bit. 408 00:18:54,139 --> 00:18:58,898 Speaker 3: But I do understand because it was hard and there 409 00:18:58,939 --> 00:19:01,819 Speaker 3: were and it really had a bigger effect on people's lives. 410 00:19:02,299 --> 00:19:04,739 Speaker 3: But I guess the point that I would make is, yes, 411 00:19:04,859 --> 00:19:09,419 Speaker 3: government decisions weren't perfect, but actually it was the virus 412 00:19:10,219 --> 00:19:13,579 Speaker 3: and the global pandemic that caused a lot of the pain. 413 00:19:14,219 --> 00:19:16,819 Speaker 3: Because the decisions the New Zealand government was making, we're 414 00:19:16,939 --> 00:19:18,939 Speaker 3: not out of line with what other countries were doing. 415 00:19:19,099 --> 00:19:21,459 Speaker 3: We were more successful, I think partly because we're an 416 00:19:21,459 --> 00:19:24,019 Speaker 3: island nation and we were able to isolate ourselves better 417 00:19:24,419 --> 00:19:27,499 Speaker 3: and avoiding long protracted lockdowns. I mean, I've got friends 418 00:19:27,499 --> 00:19:31,139 Speaker 3: and family who are in the UK who spent a 419 00:19:31,219 --> 00:19:33,899 Speaker 3: year and a half of rolling lockdowns. We avoided that 420 00:19:33,939 --> 00:19:36,059 Speaker 3: here and we were able to live relatively freely during 421 00:19:36,099 --> 00:19:38,859 Speaker 3: that time, other than you know, some periods where we 422 00:19:38,859 --> 00:19:42,539 Speaker 3: weren't and you know, for Auckland. That last lockdown was 423 00:19:42,539 --> 00:19:46,418 Speaker 3: the hardest, and it was hard, and that was one 424 00:19:46,419 --> 00:19:47,939 Speaker 3: of the areas which I don't think we got it 425 00:19:47,979 --> 00:19:51,419 Speaker 3: completely right. You know, it went on for too long, 426 00:19:52,099 --> 00:19:54,219 Speaker 3: and we as we moved, as we dealt with the 427 00:19:54,259 --> 00:19:57,619 Speaker 3: new variants. Remember we sort of shifted from from COVID 428 00:19:57,779 --> 00:20:01,859 Speaker 3: early COVID to delta to omicron and then and then 429 00:20:01,899 --> 00:20:05,059 Speaker 3: we had, you know, moving from elimination were we were 430 00:20:05,059 --> 00:20:07,178 Speaker 3: aiming to just get back to what we've been doing 431 00:20:07,179 --> 00:20:09,379 Speaker 3: before to realizing that we couldn't and that we were 432 00:20:09,379 --> 00:20:11,059 Speaker 3: going to have to deal with COVID in the community. 433 00:20:11,299 --> 00:20:14,219 Speaker 3: That was very bumpy and very hard, and we didn't 434 00:20:14,219 --> 00:20:16,459 Speaker 3: get every decision right in there, and I'd never say 435 00:20:16,459 --> 00:20:18,539 Speaker 3: that we did. And so as a result, I think 436 00:20:18,539 --> 00:20:20,019 Speaker 3: there are people we'll look at that going you know, 437 00:20:20,579 --> 00:20:23,579 Speaker 3: if they'd been government or you know, would we have 438 00:20:23,659 --> 00:20:26,699 Speaker 3: made decisions differently if we knew then what we know now? 439 00:20:26,979 --> 00:20:29,459 Speaker 4: Yes, unquestionably. 440 00:20:35,579 --> 00:20:38,899 Speaker 2: When it comes to election next year, Chris, are you. 441 00:20:38,939 --> 00:20:41,099 Speaker 1: Still confident that you'll be leading the Labor Party? 442 00:20:41,299 --> 00:20:41,859 Speaker 4: Absolutely? 443 00:20:42,259 --> 00:20:44,099 Speaker 3: And you know, look, I've still got a lot of 444 00:20:44,179 --> 00:20:46,899 Speaker 3: energy for this job. I only took over about eight 445 00:20:46,899 --> 00:20:49,299 Speaker 3: months before the election. I had eight months as Prime 446 00:20:49,299 --> 00:20:52,779 Speaker 3: Minister and you know I said there as soon as 447 00:20:52,779 --> 00:20:54,539 Speaker 3: I took over from Gainda, I want Labor to get 448 00:20:54,539 --> 00:20:58,299 Speaker 3: back to focusing on what the Labor Party is all about, jobs, health, homes, 449 00:20:58,979 --> 00:21:01,219 Speaker 3: you know, making sure we're raising living standards for all 450 00:21:01,259 --> 00:21:04,539 Speaker 3: New Zealanders, focusing on the things that unite New Zealanders 451 00:21:04,619 --> 00:21:07,939 Speaker 3: rather than the things that divide us apart, making sure 452 00:21:07,979 --> 00:21:10,898 Speaker 3: that we we're dealing with controversial and tricky areas like 453 00:21:11,179 --> 00:21:14,099 Speaker 3: the Treaty for example, that we're slowing down a bit 454 00:21:14,099 --> 00:21:16,619 Speaker 3: and we're bringing people with us. We're not you know, 455 00:21:16,619 --> 00:21:18,699 Speaker 3: people don't feel like a whole lot's happening that they 456 00:21:18,739 --> 00:21:21,659 Speaker 3: don't know about, and they're mistrustful of that. You know, 457 00:21:21,699 --> 00:21:24,219 Speaker 3: I started that work when I became Prime Minister, and 458 00:21:24,259 --> 00:21:26,939 Speaker 3: then you know, I still think that's work that the 459 00:21:27,019 --> 00:21:29,019 Speaker 3: Labor Party needs to do. I think we need to 460 00:21:29,059 --> 00:21:32,179 Speaker 3: make sure that we're there for the people who we represent. 461 00:21:32,459 --> 00:21:34,499 Speaker 2: And would you be open to working with the Greens 462 00:21:34,499 --> 00:21:37,579 Speaker 2: and TPM or those conversations just not started yet. 463 00:21:37,619 --> 00:21:38,779 Speaker 4: Well, we work closely with them. 464 00:21:38,939 --> 00:21:41,659 Speaker 3: When I say closely, we cooperate with them quite a 465 00:21:41,739 --> 00:21:44,179 Speaker 3: lot in opposition and you'll see things like the Treaty 466 00:21:44,179 --> 00:21:46,379 Speaker 3: Principles Bill, which we thought was a really divisib but 467 00:21:46,459 --> 00:21:48,499 Speaker 3: we work really closely with the Greens and with the 468 00:21:48,539 --> 00:21:51,138 Speaker 3: Mardi Party to oppose that and to make sure that 469 00:21:51,179 --> 00:21:53,579 Speaker 3: it was defeated. We have a lot of values in 470 00:21:53,619 --> 00:21:56,059 Speaker 3: common with both of those parties, you know, if you're 471 00:21:56,059 --> 00:21:59,779 Speaker 3: talking about the values of unity, of collective action, of 472 00:21:59,859 --> 00:22:03,499 Speaker 3: making sure that we are catering to the squeezed middle 473 00:22:03,699 --> 00:22:05,859 Speaker 3: but also those on the lowest incomes, I think we 474 00:22:06,219 --> 00:22:09,099 Speaker 3: share those aspirations. We want to make sure that we're 475 00:22:09,179 --> 00:22:12,619 Speaker 3: leaving the planet, you know, in a at least as 476 00:22:12,659 --> 00:22:13,939 Speaker 3: good as state as we found it. 477 00:22:13,979 --> 00:22:16,179 Speaker 4: I think we share those goals. 478 00:22:16,379 --> 00:22:18,859 Speaker 3: I've said that what we will do before the election, 479 00:22:19,619 --> 00:22:21,419 Speaker 3: as I did last time, as I say, look, these 480 00:22:21,419 --> 00:22:23,699 Speaker 3: are the areas that we've got in common with other parties, 481 00:22:23,699 --> 00:22:25,019 Speaker 3: and these are the areas where we think we can 482 00:22:25,099 --> 00:22:26,979 Speaker 3: work with them, and these are the things. 483 00:22:26,779 --> 00:22:28,739 Speaker 4: We categorically would take off the table. 484 00:22:28,739 --> 00:22:31,579 Speaker 3: We won't do that, and I think that will make 485 00:22:31,619 --> 00:22:35,138 Speaker 3: it clear what the future governing arrangements might look like. 486 00:22:35,819 --> 00:22:38,139 Speaker 3: But I differ for a bit from the current government 487 00:22:38,219 --> 00:22:41,459 Speaker 3: in the sense that you know, I respect the important 488 00:22:41,459 --> 00:22:45,699 Speaker 3: constituencies the smaller parties represent, and I also respect that 489 00:22:45,699 --> 00:22:48,579 Speaker 3: we compete with them for votes too. I don't think 490 00:22:48,619 --> 00:22:51,859 Speaker 3: under MMP the smaller parties should call all of the shots, 491 00:22:52,379 --> 00:22:55,299 Speaker 3: you know, I still think that the bigger parties have 492 00:22:55,379 --> 00:22:58,219 Speaker 3: a mandate to reflect the view of a much larger 493 00:22:58,259 --> 00:23:01,259 Speaker 3: section of the electorate, and so I do think under 494 00:23:01,339 --> 00:23:05,699 Speaker 3: MMP you need to kind of keep proportionality in mind. Yes, 495 00:23:05,739 --> 00:23:08,179 Speaker 3: there should be some concessions and some trade offs to 496 00:23:08,219 --> 00:23:11,019 Speaker 3: the other parties in order to form government, but that 497 00:23:11,099 --> 00:23:13,259 Speaker 3: doesn't mean that you should be doing things that you 498 00:23:13,579 --> 00:23:16,659 Speaker 3: specifically told the electorate before the election that you weren't going. 499 00:23:16,539 --> 00:23:18,019 Speaker 1: To do, like the Treaties principle. 500 00:23:18,099 --> 00:23:21,059 Speaker 3: The Treaty Principles is a good example, the Regulatory Standards Bill. 501 00:23:21,099 --> 00:23:22,499 Speaker 3: You know, some of these things that no one knew 502 00:23:22,499 --> 00:23:24,219 Speaker 3: that they were voting for at the last election, and 503 00:23:24,259 --> 00:23:27,219 Speaker 3: now they're being inflicted on them. I don't think that's 504 00:23:27,259 --> 00:23:31,059 Speaker 3: the spirit of MMP or democracy. I think, you know, 505 00:23:31,099 --> 00:23:33,899 Speaker 3: the majority should still rule in a democracy. At the moment, 506 00:23:34,019 --> 00:23:37,179 Speaker 3: that's not happening. We're currently being ruled by a minority, 507 00:23:37,219 --> 00:23:40,299 Speaker 3: a small minority, and I don't think that's what new 508 00:23:40,379 --> 00:23:41,379 Speaker 3: Zealand has voted for. 509 00:23:41,739 --> 00:23:43,819 Speaker 1: I can only assume David not Winston. 510 00:23:45,259 --> 00:23:46,739 Speaker 4: When I'm talking about the minorities. 511 00:23:46,859 --> 00:23:48,219 Speaker 1: There's a small minority. 512 00:23:48,539 --> 00:23:50,939 Speaker 3: Well, both of them to some extent on different issues. 513 00:23:50,979 --> 00:23:53,299 Speaker 3: You know, they've both got their hobby horses that they're 514 00:23:53,339 --> 00:23:55,379 Speaker 3: sort of inflicting on the rest of the country and 515 00:23:56,299 --> 00:23:58,219 Speaker 3: they're not things that New Zealand has voted for. 516 00:23:58,379 --> 00:24:00,219 Speaker 1: Well, ending greyhound racing is not that. 517 00:24:00,619 --> 00:24:03,419 Speaker 3: Look, I support Winston Peters on ending greyhound racing that 518 00:24:03,459 --> 00:24:05,819 Speaker 3: I know the greyhound racers don't particularly like the fact 519 00:24:05,859 --> 00:24:08,019 Speaker 3: that we're supporting the government on that. But it's time 520 00:24:08,259 --> 00:24:10,499 Speaker 3: and you know I said before the election that I 521 00:24:10,499 --> 00:24:13,379 Speaker 3: thought it was time and I congratulate him for doing it. 522 00:24:13,419 --> 00:24:16,339 Speaker 3: You know, not everything in politics needs to be about 523 00:24:16,459 --> 00:24:18,659 Speaker 3: saying I impose that just because it's the other side 524 00:24:18,659 --> 00:24:21,659 Speaker 3: that it doing it. I think there's actually too much 525 00:24:21,659 --> 00:24:24,139 Speaker 3: of that. And I also think let's make sure that 526 00:24:24,179 --> 00:24:26,379 Speaker 3: when we're opposing each other, it's for the right reasons, 527 00:24:26,459 --> 00:24:29,379 Speaker 3: not the wrong reasons. So it shouldn't be just It 528 00:24:29,419 --> 00:24:32,059 Speaker 3: should be because we disagree, not because we're trying to 529 00:24:32,579 --> 00:24:38,499 Speaker 3: secure political advantage or political points. So things like infrastructure projects, 530 00:24:38,699 --> 00:24:40,939 Speaker 3: why does everything take so long in New Zealand and 531 00:24:40,939 --> 00:24:43,299 Speaker 3: why does it cost so much money? Well, the political 532 00:24:43,339 --> 00:24:45,339 Speaker 3: cycle is part of the problem. 533 00:24:45,659 --> 00:24:45,819 Speaker 4: You know. 534 00:24:45,859 --> 00:24:47,499 Speaker 3: New government comes in and says, we don't like all 535 00:24:47,539 --> 00:24:49,099 Speaker 3: that stuff that the last lot we're doing, so we're 536 00:24:49,099 --> 00:24:50,699 Speaker 3: going to stop all of that and we're going to 537 00:24:50,699 --> 00:24:54,779 Speaker 3: start again. Everything slows down, everything costs more money, and 538 00:24:54,859 --> 00:24:58,339 Speaker 3: in the meantime, seventeen thousand fewer people are working in 539 00:24:58,379 --> 00:25:00,979 Speaker 3: construction today than they were at the last election. And 540 00:25:01,019 --> 00:25:02,939 Speaker 3: the government's part of the problem. I've said that I 541 00:25:03,019 --> 00:25:04,459 Speaker 3: want to take a lot of the politics out of that. 542 00:25:04,859 --> 00:25:07,299 Speaker 3: The Infrastructure Commission have come out with a big list 543 00:25:07,339 --> 00:25:09,299 Speaker 3: that says these are the things that New Zealand needs. 544 00:25:09,619 --> 00:25:12,379 Speaker 3: They're not things that political parties have decided, you know, 545 00:25:12,459 --> 00:25:15,019 Speaker 3: these are the things the Infrastructure Commission have said. For 546 00:25:15,099 --> 00:25:16,979 Speaker 3: the country of the size that we are, with the 547 00:25:17,339 --> 00:25:20,379 Speaker 3: geography we are, this is what we need and we 548 00:25:20,499 --> 00:25:22,899 Speaker 3: need to do it. I've said to the current government, 549 00:25:23,499 --> 00:25:26,379 Speaker 3: if you're doing stuff that is on that list, let's 550 00:25:26,419 --> 00:25:28,619 Speaker 3: not fit all with that. Let's just get on and 551 00:25:28,659 --> 00:25:31,899 Speaker 3: do it because that's been objectively determined that that's what 552 00:25:31,939 --> 00:25:35,299 Speaker 3: we need as a country, and let's stop the stop 553 00:25:35,339 --> 00:25:39,539 Speaker 3: start nature of what we're doing, because not everything needs. 554 00:25:39,299 --> 00:25:42,179 Speaker 2: To be political and looking forward, Chris, what does a 555 00:25:42,179 --> 00:25:44,739 Speaker 2: better New Zealand look like to you? 556 00:25:45,099 --> 00:25:48,139 Speaker 3: I think it involves higher standards of livings for all 557 00:25:48,219 --> 00:25:52,739 Speaker 3: New Zealanders. So people having good jobs, recognizing that there's 558 00:25:52,779 --> 00:25:55,299 Speaker 3: going to be turnover in jobs as technology changes, but 559 00:25:55,579 --> 00:25:58,739 Speaker 3: that if you lose your job because things have changed, 560 00:25:59,019 --> 00:26:00,979 Speaker 3: that you can get another one, if you need to 561 00:26:01,019 --> 00:26:03,299 Speaker 3: retrain and reskill in order to do that, that you're 562 00:26:03,339 --> 00:26:06,179 Speaker 3: supported to do that. That you can have a place 563 00:26:06,219 --> 00:26:08,859 Speaker 3: that you can call home, whether it's owning your own 564 00:26:08,859 --> 00:26:12,099 Speaker 3: home or having a security and your rental, That you 565 00:26:12,139 --> 00:26:15,659 Speaker 3: can access good healthcare, that your kids are getting a 566 00:26:15,699 --> 00:26:20,219 Speaker 3: good education, a world class education. We are actually, you know, 567 00:26:20,259 --> 00:26:22,539 Speaker 3: preserving the environment that we live in so that it 568 00:26:22,579 --> 00:26:27,939 Speaker 3: can sustain future generations of people, and that we're living sustainably. 569 00:26:28,099 --> 00:26:30,859 Speaker 3: You know that we're having a high quality of life, 570 00:26:30,939 --> 00:26:32,379 Speaker 3: but in a way that's sustainable. 571 00:26:32,699 --> 00:26:34,939 Speaker 4: To me, that's what New Zealand should be all about. 572 00:26:35,059 --> 00:26:40,419 Speaker 3: There's huge opportunities for us. You know, the move to 573 00:26:40,459 --> 00:26:42,899 Speaker 3: a more sustainable way of living doesn't need to be 574 00:26:42,979 --> 00:26:46,059 Speaker 3: a hardship. In fact, it could be the source of 575 00:26:46,099 --> 00:26:48,099 Speaker 3: our great prosperity in the future. 576 00:26:48,259 --> 00:26:50,099 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Chris, thank you. 577 00:26:53,459 --> 00:26:56,658 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You 578 00:26:56,699 --> 00:27:00,619 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 579 00:27:00,819 --> 00:27:04,659 Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot mz. The Front Page is 580 00:27:04,739 --> 00:27:08,499 Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sells and Richard Martin, who is also 581 00:27:08,699 --> 00:27:09,339 Speaker 2: our editor. 582 00:27:09,819 --> 00:27:11,419 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 583 00:27:11,779 --> 00:27:14,979 Speaker 2: Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 584 00:27:15,019 --> 00:27:18,619 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 585 00:27:18,699 --> 00:27:20,219 Speaker 2: behind the headlines.