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Speaker 1: Three high schools are defying orders from the Ministry of

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Speaker 1: Education to enroll students that have been expelled from other schools.

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Speaker 1: So the Ministry has sent two hundred and sixty one

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Speaker 1: letters to schools in the past year, legally forcing them

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Speaker 1: to enroll certain students, but three schools are refusing to comply.

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Speaker 1: Now we don't know which schools have refused, only that

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Speaker 1: two of them are in Auckland and one of them

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Speaker 1: is in White Cuttle. Tim O'Connor is the headmaster of

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Speaker 1: Auckland Grammar and is with us this afternoon. Golder, Good afternoon.

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Speaker 1: Let's get this out of the way. It is Auckland

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Speaker 1: Grammar one of those three schools, not on this occasion,

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Speaker 1: on this occasion. It has been in the past.

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Speaker 2: I always certainly had discussions with the Ministry about their

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Speaker 2: methodology with directing schools to direct us to take students.

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Speaker 2: Largely they have been in the case of enrollment, people

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Speaker 2: who are trying, to my view or in the school's

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Speaker 2: view at the time, cheek his own to win a

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Speaker 2: place at the school.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever had occasions when a student who's been

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Speaker 1: expelled from another school but as legally within your school zone,

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Speaker 1: you didn't want to enroll them.

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Speaker 2: No, I haven't had that sort of scenario. I think

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Speaker 2: one of the critical things for the general public fear

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Speaker 2: aware of Jack is that the complication for a principle

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Speaker 2: and for a board, because this obligation actually lies with

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Speaker 2: the board rather than the principle, is that the board

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Speaker 2: has an obligation to create a safe environment for the

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Speaker 2: students in its care. So it becomes a bit of

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Speaker 2: a conflict of interest really when the Ministry is then

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Speaker 2: directing a school or a board to accept a student

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Speaker 2: who has beamed unsafe typically if they've been expelled or excluded,

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Speaker 2: then it will be for extreme behavior typically, right, and

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Speaker 2: so that student could compromise the safety of the new school.

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Speaker 1: So it's kind of antithetical that on one hand to

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Speaker 1: getting the Ministry saying you have to enroll the student,

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, regulations as it stands say you

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Speaker 1: have to provide a safe environment for all students.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right, I can appreciate the position of the school.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, Yeah, it's very tricky. I mean, these kids

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Speaker 1: have to go somewhere though, right, yes.

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Speaker 2: But what I'd encourage in the first instance is actually

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Speaker 2: the Ministry of Education communicate well with schools, and typically

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Speaker 2: my experiences, they don't. They will simply write you a

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Speaker 2: letter directing you to take a student, and then what happens,

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Speaker 2: of course, is a fight figuratively ensues. So if the

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Speaker 2: ministry instead actually came to a school in person, have

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Speaker 2: the conversation with the principal, explain what support they would

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Speaker 2: wrap around that student to enable them to experience some

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Speaker 2: form of what have the potential to experience success, then

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Speaker 2: you might have a way forward. Unfortunately, we've sort of

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Speaker 2: got bureaucracy taking the easy option of just actually writing

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Speaker 2: a letter pumping about not communicating with schools, and so

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Speaker 2: schools get their backs up and say, you're not going

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Speaker 2: to resource us to take a student of high needs.

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Speaker 2: Quy will we yeah?

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Speaker 1: Quite yeah, yeah, I can understand how schools might take

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Speaker 1: that position. So what might that support look like If

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Speaker 1: it's a student who's been expelled from another school, say,

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Speaker 1: and potentially presents a risk to students who are already

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Speaker 1: enrolled in your school, what would appropriate support look like?

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Speaker 2: Well, the whole part, it depends on the situation. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: every student's going to be a different situation. If it's

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Speaker 2: a drug related matter, then I'd be asking for appropriate

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Speaker 2: testing to have taken place, and for that to be funded,

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Speaker 2: for there to be additional support wrapped around them in

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Speaker 2: terms of additional counseling, in fact, specialized counseling, for there

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Speaker 2: to be ongoing drug testing, et cetera, et cetera, and

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Speaker 2: for the ministry to actually pick up those costs so

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Speaker 2: that there is a chance for that student to experience

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Speaker 2: success in the school and for the school not to

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Speaker 2: actually other students at risk.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, in your experience, are there occasions when the ministry

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Speaker 1: does do that or does a good job of that.

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Speaker 2: Will you have to push them to go there?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: And that's the sort of the same thing really, I

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Speaker 2: think is that the ministry is not there supporting the

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Speaker 2: school as much as it should, and insteads sort of

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Speaker 2: taking the easy option to go, we'll make this problem

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Speaker 2: go away. We'll just direct them because we have the

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Speaker 2: power to do that. Let's instead the conversation, agree to

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Speaker 2: some appropriate support and it'll be cheaper to do that

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Speaker 2: than to have a student out of school and then

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Speaker 2: becoming you know, a truant, someone who is actually going

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Speaker 2: to break the law, et cetera, etcetera. Let's put a

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Speaker 2: bit of funding behind them to ensure that they are

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Speaker 2: attending school and that they are supported and maybe experience

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Speaker 2: some success.

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Speaker 1: And so what happens in a worst case scenario, if

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Speaker 1: that's the best case scenario, what happens if a ministry

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Speaker 1: and in a school remain in an impasse and can't

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Speaker 1: agree about resourcing a student who the ministry says should

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Speaker 1: be enrolled in that school.

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Speaker 2: What happens then, Well, the student had just remained out

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Speaker 2: of school, So what's going to happen. They're going to

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Speaker 2: have time on their hands, and who knows what the

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Speaker 2: home life is like and what sort of support there

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Speaker 2: is there, So it becomes very difficult where the student

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Speaker 2: actually has nowhere to go. There are, of course other programs.

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Speaker 2: There's alternative education programs for students who are in extreme

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Speaker 2: situations who need to actually change their behavior, change extreme behavior,

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Speaker 2: and we'd always recommend that that is a short term pathway.

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Speaker 2: Reintegrating a student into school was obviously the best option.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, hey, thank you so much, Tim, really appreciate your

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Speaker 1: time as always. That is Tim O'Connor, the headmaster of

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Speaker 1: Auckland Grammar. For more from Hither Duplasy Alan Drive listen

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