1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,120 Speaker 1: Now the Prime Minister says that he's open to having 2 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: a discussion about banning Nazi salutes and symbols. And this 3 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: is because Mongrel Mob members obviously use the hands signal 4 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: your Nazi signal, along with the expression sighil and they 5 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: were pulling that out yesterday at the Tonguey in Wellington. 6 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 1: Sociologist Professor Paul Spoonley is an expert in far right 7 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: extremism and with us. 8 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 2: Now, hey, Paul, did a Heather? 9 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: Do you support a ban? 10 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 2: No? I don't and I don't and I don't for 11 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 2: a couple of reasons. One is is it enforceable and 12 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 2: it's going to be very interesting to see whether that 13 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 2: is the case with the gang patch ban. And the 14 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 2: second is doesn't have any effect because I think banning 15 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 2: doesn't address underlying problems. And I would say the same 16 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 2: about swastik as the Nazi salutes as I would about 17 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 2: the gang patch. 18 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: What is the underlying problem with the Mongrel Mob that 19 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 1: causes them to pull out this kind of a sign. 20 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 2: Well, they when they were being established in the late 21 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 2: nineteen sixties nineteen seventies. One of the signia and signs 22 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 2: and symbolism that they called upon was something that was 23 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 2: deeply offensive to a lot of people, and so they 24 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 2: used those Nazi symbols and signs so and of course 25 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 2: continue to do so. So it's what's called racially aggravated harassment. 26 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 2: And around the world, around the in Europe and other 27 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: parts of the world, those sort of signs have been 28 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 2: banned places like Switzerland, the UK, Poland and so on. 29 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 2: We've never gone down that route, and so the banning 30 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 2: of the gang patch is quite an interesting departure, and 31 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 2: I think I think if the government's going to be consistent, 32 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 2: it's going to have to say what else are we 33 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 2: going to ban? Because you know you can't. I've always 34 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 2: had a problem, Heather, with the way in which the 35 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 2: police and corrections identify people. So when they talk about gangs, 36 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: they tend to talk about black power and mangral moob 37 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 2: whereas I've been researching the Fourth Rank, which is a 38 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 2: white supremacist gang in South Island prisons. Now, why don't 39 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 2: you treat them in the same way and look at 40 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 2: what they do and what sort of signs they use. 41 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 2: But to go back to your first question, I think 42 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 2: banning doesn't address the underlying issues. 43 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of weird that we're looking at banning 44 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 1: it now, isn't it? Like it's a real indication of 45 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: where we are at as a world, because in the 46 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: sixties and seventies, I would have imagined that them doing 47 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: it back then would be far more offensive than it 48 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: is now. Like as time has gone on, it just 49 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: looks increasingly ridiculous, doesn't it. So if we didn't ban 50 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: it back in the sixties and seventies, why in God's 51 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: name sixty years later are we suddenly so offended by it? 52 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 2: Yeah? I think some people are offended, and for some 53 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 2: people it has caused distress. So if you look at 54 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 2: the Australian example, where they've banned Nazi sallets and symbols 55 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: in New South Wales and Victoria, they've recognized that it 56 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 2: is really distressing and very offensive to certain communities, obviously 57 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,279 Speaker 2: the Jewish community, so they've used that as a justification. 58 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 2: But we've we've never been very enthusiastic about that. So 59 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 2: you go back to Jeffrey Palmer and some of the 60 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 2: things that he was asked to do and didn't do, 61 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 2: And then you look again at Paul East. I don't 62 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 2: know whether you remember, but there was evidence that we 63 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 2: had war criminals come to New Zealand, and so the 64 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 2: government set up a particular group to investigate that did 65 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: discover that there were war criminals here, but then chose 66 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 2: not to do anything about it. And that was both 67 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 2: labor and national So we've never been enthusiastic PUD. 68 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: Why did we not do anything about it? 69 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 2: It was all a bit too hard. You'd have to 70 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 2: take them to court, You'd have to find people who 71 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 2: could give evidence. Now, in fact, there was evidence, and 72 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 2: the commission that was set up did discover that evidence. 73 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 2: And in fact, Heather, I fucking just dislow something on 74 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 2: your radio station. In the nineteen eighties, I knew that 75 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 2: one of them was living in Palmerston North, and I 76 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 2: actually went and visited. So many people knew who they 77 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 2: were and where they were, but at a government level, 78 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 2: we just didn't. We weren't enthusiastic about prosecuting them as 79 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 2: war criminals. 80 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: This war criminal that you visit in Pami, how senior 81 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: are we talking? Are we just talking like a low 82 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: level prison guard or were talking about somebody quite Yeah. 83 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 2: It was my understanding. He was a prison guard and 84 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 2: he was quite old when when I saw him obviously, 85 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 2: and by the time they did the investigation, which was 86 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety one, when they set up the unit, 87 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 2: you know, most of them were either dead. Originally there 88 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 2: were forty six people identified who'd come to New Zealanders 89 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 2: and who would possibly be war criminals, so there was 90 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 2: quite a few, but of course by the nineteen nineties 91 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 2: most of them had died. 92 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: Fascinating. So do we just not really care about this 93 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: stuff very much? 94 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 2: I think we. I think we do care about it. 95 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: And obviously the Gang patch legislation, which is coming into 96 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 2: fall soon, does indicate that we care about in this 97 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 2: case offensive symbols. But we have been very reluctant to 98 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: legislate and to act in terms of prosecutions in this country. 99 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 2: So the gang legislation is actually a departure from what 100 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 2: the position that we've tended to adopt. 101 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: How fascinating. Paul, Thanks for chatting to us. Always love 102 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: talking to you. That's Paul Spoonley, sociologist and expert in 103 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: far right extremism. 104 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 2: For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to 105 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,559 Speaker 2: News Talk sai'd Be from four pm weekdays, or follow 106 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.