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Speaker 1: The un is warning that the whole world is facing

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Speaker 1: a fertility crisis as is. According to a new report.

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Speaker 1: It says that the cost of living, job in security,

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Speaker 1: and housing costs are preventing people from having as many

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Speaker 1: kids as they actually want to now. Paul Spoonley is

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Speaker 1: a massive university sociologist.

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Speaker 2: High Paul Hi Heather Paul.

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Speaker 1: I don't believe it's money. I believe I believe it

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Speaker 1: is a lack of time. What do you think.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a number of things. So traditionally it's

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Speaker 2: been the level of women's education, so as that's gone

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Speaker 2: up to babies, it's been the fact that more women

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Speaker 2: are in the paid workforce. I think it's fertility. So

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Speaker 2: fertility in the sense of being able to conceive children,

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Speaker 2: because women are having children much later in life, and

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Speaker 2: so as we see that first child, the age of

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Speaker 2: the women for the first child is creeping up, and

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Speaker 2: I think it is money.

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Speaker 1: Do you think it is money?

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Speaker 2: I do you know know the cost of having children.

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Speaker 2: I've just looked at some on the cost of having

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Speaker 2: a child in New Zealand, and you do need to

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Speaker 2: make a decision about whether you can afford a child

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Speaker 2: or a house or whether you can afford to have

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Speaker 2: a child and see your career disrupted. And I think

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Speaker 2: that's particularly for millennials and generations zaid women in New Zealand,

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Speaker 2: they're beginning to make those calculations.

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Speaker 1: But Paul, you yourself point to the fact that Hungary

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Speaker 1: said if you have four children and more you get

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Speaker 1: income tax breaks, like no income tax needs to be paid.

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Speaker 1: It didn't change the fertility rate. Sweden, which is far

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Speaker 1: more generous than we are when it comes to childcare

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Speaker 1: provisions and maternity and paternity leave, has the same fertility

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Speaker 1: rate as we do. So is it really about.

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Speaker 2: Money, Well, that's one of it is one of the factors.

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Speaker 2: It is one of the factors. So if you it's

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Speaker 2: come through as a major factor in the last ten years,

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Speaker 2: the cost of living, the cost of housing, the fact

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Speaker 2: that you're not getting enough salary to cover.

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Speaker 1: Yes, okay, but can I put something to you? Is

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Speaker 1: this just what people say when you say to them,

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Speaker 1: why have you only got two children and not seven hundred?

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Speaker 1: They say, oh, it's cost But is that what is

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Speaker 1: what people say different to the reality, Like if you

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Speaker 1: actually then made it more affordable for them to have children,

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Speaker 1: would they actually.

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Speaker 2: No, they wouldn't. So what demographers agreed on, Heather is

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Speaker 2: that pronatal policies by governments you've mentioned sweating hungry actually

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Speaker 2: don't make any difference to the decision about having children.

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Speaker 2: So governments are really scratching the heads at this point

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Speaker 2: thinking how can we stop fertility decline?

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Speaker 1: Why do we want to we stop at Paul, Why

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Speaker 1: don't we just accept that this is how it is?

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I agree with that, Heather. The thing is

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Speaker 2: that what the UN report is which we're talking about here,

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Speaker 2: which has identified the cost of having children as being

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Speaker 2: a factor, and a major international survey, they've said there

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Speaker 2: are two options. One of those is that we work

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Speaker 2: longer so we're healthier. Why can't we continue to work

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Speaker 2: after the age of sixty five, which many people in

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Speaker 2: New Zealand are doing. And the second is we just

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Speaker 2: need to use integration to top up the shortages will

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Speaker 2: occur in the workforce.

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Speaker 1: Paul, it is always wonderful to speak to you. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for your time. That's Paul Spoonley, Massy

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Speaker 1: University sociologist.

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Speaker 2: For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive listen live to

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