1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: Cura and welcome to the Business of Tech powered by 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: Two Degrees Business. I'm Peter Griffin, and today we're talking 3 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: about one of the toughest problems facing New Zealand right now, 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: how we lean on innovation to get through an increasingly 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: pronounced energy crunch. On paper, we look like an energy 6 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: success story. Around eighty to ninety percent of the electricity 7 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: on our national grid comes from renewable sources like hydro 8 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: wind and geothermal, and we've got ambitious climate targets baked 9 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: into the Zero Carbon Act. 10 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 2: But the reality is more complicated. 11 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: When lake levels fall, the security of our electricity supply 12 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: is suddenly in question, and a huge chunk of our 13 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: process heat insectors like dairy, meat and timber still relies 14 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: on coal and gas fuels that are both emissions heavy 15 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: and in the case of gas, increasingly constrained. As Business 16 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: Desk reported this week, the government will pay for a 17 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: liquefied natural gas import facility in Taranaki, funded through a 18 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: levy on electricity users as an insurance policy against dry 19 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: year risk. It could be operating by twenty twenty seven 20 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: next year, so imported alianng is being positioned as a 21 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: backstop fuel as domestic gas supply declines. It'll cost a 22 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: billion dollars to build a terminal, but with expected savings 23 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: of up to two hundred and sixty five million dollars 24 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: a year once it's built. That's by reducing price spikes, 25 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: which we've seen in the last couple of years, but. 26 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 2: Alonely goes so far. 27 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: How do we keep the lights on, keep our exporters competitive, 28 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: and still cut emissions fast enough to stay in the 29 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: game with our international markets. Where can innovation realistically help 30 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: us in the next decade? And where are we guilty 31 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: of hoping for silver bullets that may never arrive. My 32 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: guests today are Daniel Ganot and Melissa rans Clerk from 33 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: ara AKI, New Zealand's National Center for Energy Innovation. Daniel 34 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: leads the research and insights function and Melissa is on 35 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: the board. At ara AKI, the organization operates in that 36 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: valley of death for new technology, helping energy ideas move 37 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 1: from the lab into real world pilots and commercial deployments, 38 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: from community microgrids and rural resilience projects, to industrial scale 39 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: battery storage on the waterfront, hydrogen trucking fleets, and even 40 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 1: the fusion moonshot being developed right here in Wellington. In 41 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: this episode, we dig into the state of energy innovation 42 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: in New Zealand, the hard reality of our reliance on 43 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: fossil fuels for process heat, why flexible demand and. 44 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 2: Smarter use of hot water cylinders might. 45 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: Matter just as much as big new generation projects, how 46 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 1: we can turn disused oil and gas wells into geothermal opportunities, 47 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: and why the real capital gap is not at startup stage, 48 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 1: but in scaling promising energy tech from pilots to nationwide impact. 49 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: We'll also touch on what this transition feels like on 50 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: the ground in Taranaki, and whether our political system is 51 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: capable of the kind of long term intergenerational thinking that 52 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: shift really demands. That's all ahead on the Business of Tech, 53 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: so stay tuned. Melissa and Daniel, welcome to the Business 54 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: of Tech. How are you both doing? 55 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 3: Yeah? Great, thank you, Thanks for Yeah. 56 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: Melissa, you're here in Wellington. Daniel is in the great Taranaki, 57 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: New Plymouth, a place it's very due to my heart, 58 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: lots of friends up there. I love going there. It's 59 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: the home of ara AKI, great organization we're going to 60 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: talk about. Melissa, you joined the board of ara Aki 61 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: in November and that follows a long career for you 62 00:03:54,680 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: as a professional director, a futurist, an entrepreneur really rested 63 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: in clean tech and energy. Let's start with the sort 64 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: of the big picture things that are sort of weighing 65 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: on the energy sector at the moment. We've got a 66 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: zero carbonac which is great. It has certain targets for 67 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: twenty fifty in terms of our transition to a low 68 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: carbon economy, you know. 69 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: So it's great. 70 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 1: We've got that goal there, and we're doing lots of 71 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: things to reduce it. Some would say they're sort of inefficient, 72 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: insufficient in the short term to keep us to a 73 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: you know, that pathway of one point five degrees of warming. 74 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: We've got a heavy reliance on forestry and offsets as 75 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: part of our strategy that's been criticized. We've got the 76 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: ets emissions trading scheme, but you know, the prices of 77 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: volatile and low is it setting the right incentives. Then 78 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 1: we've got things like the you know, the gas supply 79 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of publicity about that is decreasing rapidly, 80 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: so that's having impacts for pricing and contracts and and 81 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: access to supply for our manufacturers, and we all got 82 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: a letter probably this week or last week from our 83 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 1: electricity supplier saying prices are going up. So I think, 84 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: you know, this has become a mainstream issue of nervousness, 85 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: and you know, we're all sort of thinking, you know, 86 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: what role can innovation play to help us smooth this transition? Obviously, 87 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 1: you know the focus is on electricity production, you know, 88 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: solar power when farms and the like, But that stuff 89 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: takes quite a long time to get consented and to 90 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: get rolled out. So what else can we do? So interested, Melissa, 91 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: your take having come on to the board, obviously scanning 92 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: the landscape, what you're seeing, what is giving you sort 93 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: of real enthusiasm, and you know, what are some of 94 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: the barriers we still need to overcome? 95 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 3: Oh my god, I kind of want to back the 96 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,919 Speaker 3: truck right up and go. You know, foresight is such 97 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 3: a useful thing, and as human beings, we often discount 98 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 3: what we kind of know is coming at us in 99 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 3: favor of what's on front of us today. So give 100 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 3: you an example is that I was a consultant to 101 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 3: ec and Z way back in the nineties, and I 102 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 3: remember using kneewa reports back then of what the future 103 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 3: costs of energy were going to be of the future 104 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 3: rainfall in New Zealand, of you know, whether the lakes 105 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 3: were going to be full in winters and so on, 106 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 3: and those projections that were done in the nineties were 107 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 3: absolutely on the money for what we're seeing today. And 108 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 3: I think that that's an important thing, is that often 109 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 3: what we do is that we'll have these really clear 110 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 3: pictures of how pricing's going to play out, or how 111 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 3: demand or supplier is going to play out. And yet 112 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 3: what we so often do, and I mean we meaning 113 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 3: human beings, is instead of us thinking and to generation 114 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 3: rationally or thinking, you know what, one day, I'm going 115 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 3: to be sixty and I might want to be thinking 116 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 3: about this stuff. I was in my twenties and thirties 117 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 3: when I'm reading these materials, and being sixty just sort 118 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 3: of seemed improbable and unlikely. So we continue to defer 119 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 3: decision making. And I guess I raised this because I've 120 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 3: been a consultant to the Forest Owners Association, and you know, 121 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 3: I had major issues with gas in the last couple 122 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 3: of years. I see that we have challenges with the 123 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 3: grid and distribution. I chaired a lines company for some time, 124 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 3: and these conversations about what are our future energy needs 125 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 3: and how are we going to get the energy from 126 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 3: where it's produced to where it's needed have been long 127 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 3: running conversations in New Zealand, so I kind of want 128 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 3: to put that on the table. And at the same time, 129 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 3: we've had climate data for over fifty years projecting whether 130 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 3: it's where the rainfall will be, how which hydro we 131 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 3: can generate, and so on, so it's not like we're 132 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 3: not a wash in both economic and environmental data. If 133 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 3: you're in business in New Zealand and you'd like to 134 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 3: stay in business, and I think about farming as much 135 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 3: as I think about manufacturing, we need to be sure 136 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 3: that we can get the electricity or the energy, doesn't 137 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 3: matter how it was produced. We need to make sure 138 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 3: we've got the energy we need for national security, for 139 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 3: our businesses, for our homes. We need to be sure 140 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 3: that that energy is affordable and available. And I don't 141 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 3: think we've been very good in New Zealand of thinking 142 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 3: about those things. You know, how do we make sure 143 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,439 Speaker 3: it's affordable and available? And this is why the energy 144 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 3: transition work that OK does is so important, because we're 145 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 3: doing that longer term research about what the next fuels 146 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 3: might be or what the next distribution process might look 147 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 3: like in New Zealand, and that is important so that 148 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 3: we can then show, whether it's homeowners or grid owners, 149 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 3: or forestry owners or farmers or manufacturers and so on, 150 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 3: how they can make that transition, rather than just telling them, Okay, 151 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 3: you can't afford gas anymore, or you can't afford electricity anymore. 152 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 3: You know, sorry, yeah. 153 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, we knew sort of all of these sort of 154 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: mega trends that were happening. I guess a couple of 155 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: curveballs that have been thrown at us is things like, 156 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: you know, political change. You have a government that comes 157 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,719 Speaker 1: in and says, okay, we're done with oil and gas exploration, 158 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: and then just things like the massive rise and demand 159 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: for electric vehicles and electrification of certain processes. 160 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 2: You know, we always looked with pride. 161 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: I think in New Zealand the fact that over eighty 162 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: percent of fire electricity generation came from renewable sources. Maybe 163 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,439 Speaker 1: we came a little bit complacent around that didn't really 164 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: account for the technology change and the increase in demand 165 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: for electricity that was coming. 166 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 3: I'd like to challenge that. Well, when we talk about 167 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 3: the eighty or ninety percent renewable. We're talking about the grid. 168 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 3: We're not talking about generation in New Zealand. And I 169 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 3: spend a lot of my life in the rural sector. 170 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 3: I on to meet company board and when we actually 171 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 3: look at energy generation in New Zealand, our percentage that 172 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 3: comes from the grid is not as high as I 173 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 3: think most people realize, and our percentage from renewables is 174 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 3: not as high as people realize. So actually had the 175 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 3: Lines company and Teamatow. One of the reasons that I 176 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 3: was so attracted to that is because our sixty percent 177 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 3: of the South Island's coal is used in Teamatow and 178 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 3: almost entirely for process heat in the food and fiber industry. 179 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 3: And so we do a lot of gas and coal 180 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 3: use in New Zealand that is used out, you know, 181 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 3: for process heat, particularly if you think out our dairy plants, 182 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 3: we think about like kilns for drying wood. New Zealand's 183 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 3: primary sector is heavily dependent on fossil fuels and that's 184 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 3: not on the grid. And for us, there's two imperative 185 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 3: well three, there's climate, there's affordability, and then there's access 186 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 3: to international markets. And if we don't decarbonize. International markets 187 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 3: are not going to be open to us and the 188 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,559 Speaker 3: way that we might want. So coming back to your 189 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 3: thing about curveballs, in many ways, New zealand domestic policy 190 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 3: is kind of irrelevant to most of our exporters because 191 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:43,199 Speaker 3: it's the customers who determine these things, not our domestic policy. 192 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,719 Speaker 3: So saying hey, we want coal out of formula, it's 193 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 3: going to have far more of an effect than anything 194 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 3: that our government might do. 195 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 2: And that is happening. 196 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: You know, some of our big customers, you know, Fonterra's 197 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 1: customers are saying that that you know, they will choose 198 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: milk how a supply that has clean energy behind it. 199 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: So the imperative is there, Daniel, in terms of okay, 200 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: maybe just give us the part of history. You've been 201 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: around since twenty twenty I was looking at your last 202 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: annual report for twenty twenty four twenty twenty five. I 203 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: think you put about seven point seven million into projects 204 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: which generated between them something like seventy seven million dollars 205 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: off investment. So what exactly is your role with this 206 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: great sort of band of companies and organizations that you're 207 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:32,319 Speaker 1: working with. 208 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 4: So we really are kind of an accelerator catalyst agency 209 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 4: to support early stage development and demonstration of innovation. So 210 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 4: we were put here in Taranaki to out the back 211 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,839 Speaker 4: of the changes in oil and gas. But we are 212 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 4: a national organization and we work with innovators all over 213 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 4: alter DOLLA. 214 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 2: We also have a. 215 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 4: Responsibility to bring in innovation from overseas to meet specific 216 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,199 Speaker 4: New Zealand challenges, so that is another role that we play. 217 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 4: But our happy place, our main focus is in that 218 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 4: value of death, when innovations are coming out of the 219 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 4: lab and being demonstrated in. 220 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:16,319 Speaker 3: The real world. 221 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 4: My role sits at the front of that chain as 222 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 4: the gem of research and insights, where basically I'm looking 223 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 4: to help identify and understand the opportunity and impact of 224 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 4: any innovation that comes. 225 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 2: To us and just that. 226 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: You know, if you look at the list of projects 227 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: you've founded or have been involved in in the last. 228 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 2: Year, it's quite a mix. 229 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: You've got Open Star Technologies on one hand doing great 230 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: work with fusion, trying to develop fusion here in Wellington. 231 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: So the goal there is abundant energy. That's a real 232 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: sort of moonshot. You know, there's lots of startups around 233 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: the world trying to achieve that through to something a 234 00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: little bit more tangible now like center Port again here 235 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:04,959 Speaker 1: in Wellington battery energy storage pilot that you've been involved in. 236 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: So it sort of seems to be clear that you're 237 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: willing to look at and work with organizations that are going, 238 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: you know, long term, big picture this could be a 239 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: massive breakthrough, as well as ones that are doing incremental 240 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: technologies for incremental gain. 241 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 3: That's correct. 242 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 4: We are still looking always at the impact of the 243 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 4: innovation and as a small agency, we are always looking 244 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 4: to ensure that we're working where others aren't and making 245 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 4: sure that those opportunities that might not be covered by 246 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 4: other parts of the sector are still being considered. So 247 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 4: that's where it gives us license to still work right 248 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 4: across the whole energy system, which does reflect in our 249 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 4: portfolio that we are able to support those big moon shot, 250 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 4: really interesting exciting opportunities like Openstar, as well as work 251 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 4: with are really small innovations in communities looking to change 252 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 4: the way that they use energy and improve the energy resilience. 253 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 4: But here we are always looking at impact and we 254 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 4: are also always looking at has it been done before? 255 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 4: In New Zealand, what would the opportunity be and that's 256 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 4: usually where we will start. 257 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: It seems to me that this government is when it 258 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: comes to either reducing agricultural emissions or the energy transition, 259 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: has become very focused on the innovation side of things. 260 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: They want sort of quick wins. So how do you 261 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: sort of balance that Where there's this sort of desire 262 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: for something quickly to happen. And I'm thinking of the 263 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: investment in deep geo thermal for instance, that the government's made. 264 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: They want more energy to come online quickly, which would 265 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: help solve our problems. But as you know, you know, 266 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: it's not a linear path on a lot of these 267 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: innovations and it can take a lot of time. So 268 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: how do you balance those sort of demands for quick 269 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: wins with the overall system change that needs to go on. 270 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: It may not be a sexy but it's going to 271 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: be absolutely integral to getting us there. 272 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 3: I think what's nice about what AKA does is that 273 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 3: we do do that, but where there's already been some 274 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 3: initial R and D and we're helping them scale or 275 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 3: we're helping them get to commercial And there's some special 276 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 3: challenges in New Zealand that are different to many other 277 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 3: countries in the world, and particularly our dependence on the 278 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 3: rural economy that you've picked up on. And so there's 279 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 3: a couple of projects that I really like. Like one 280 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 3: is Cetogenics, which is a biodigester project. Now I studied 281 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 3: bi digesters at university in the eighties, so they've been 282 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 3: round a long time. But one of the big challenges 283 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 3: for New Zealand isn't specifically the technology, it's the business 284 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 3: model around it. So you can run a bi digester 285 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 3: on a big American feed lock because it's really easy 286 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 3: to collect all of them inure and everything. In New Zealand, 287 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 3: we have sparse pop relations, we have widely distributed farms, 288 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 3: and so what I love about that organization is that 289 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 3: we can think about smaller, diverse feed lots and how 290 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 3: do you commercialize that, and that has a faster path 291 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 3: to market perhaps than having to do primary science the 292 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 3: same something like Black Current I like because what we're 293 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 3: thinking about is how do you do rural microgrids. Now, 294 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 3: a lot of other countries don't really care about the 295 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 3: resilience for farmers of access to energy, but it's a 296 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 3: huge issue for us, and so we can invest in 297 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 3: those and microgrids. Again, there's nothing brand new science about that, 298 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 3: but the ability to put it together in a way 299 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 3: that can enable rural New Zealand that's the special bit. 300 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 3: So I think we can get pace because of the 301 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 3: place that we play. You mentioned the geoheat one. I 302 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,959 Speaker 3: think there's some again really clever stuff that's going on 303 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 3: in Tartanaki where one of the big challenges with identifying 304 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 3: gooheat or geoffrmal locations is the expense of drilling the holes. 305 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 3: It seems ridiculous, but Tartaranak is full of holes. Like 306 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 3: we already had a lot of holes that have been 307 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 3: drilled for petroleum and gas exploration. And so what I 308 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 3: like about the geoheat project that we're funding is that 309 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 3: we can reuse those holes to go deep and see 310 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 3: if there's any geoffrmal potential in those Now that would 311 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 3: be prohibitive to do from scratch. And so coming back 312 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 3: to your piece about pace, we can probably get a 313 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 3: ten year run on this, like a head to accelerate 314 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 3: by ten years because the holes already exist. I know 315 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 3: that kind of sounds a bit weird, but we're reusing 316 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 3: the holes. It's quite a ciber commercialization play. Not just 317 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 3: an innovation play. 318 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, and obviously the Taupo region is seen as the 319 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 1: center of all of that activity. But the promising signs 320 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 1: that you might be able to use some of those 321 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: former oil and gas reservoirs for energy production, yeah, there are. 322 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 3: And you know, I think that's so interesting, and especially 323 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 3: when we think about this need for process heat. If 324 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 3: we can create heat at source and use it like 325 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 3: near where it's created, that will be a fantastic solution 326 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 3: for our food producers, for a manufacturers. 327 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: Daniel, one of the projects you've funded and worked on 328 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 1: is Strallis and Fabrin, which is hydrogen electric flight. You 329 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 1: know that the and you know, Melissa and I have 330 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: probably seen, you know, the plane that's flying around Wellington 331 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: with electric batteries at the moment in New Zealand. It's 332 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: a small plane, but it's sort of a pilot project. 333 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: So the idea and we've heard a lot about this 334 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: for transport hydrogen production, particularly for sort of more heavy transport. 335 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: What's your take. You know, when you scan the radar 336 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 1: on projects here, the potential for hydrogen and New Zealand. 337 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 4: There's been quite a lot of good work done in 338 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 4: the last few years looking at the potential of hydrogen, 339 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 4: and globally, the understanding of where hydrogen fits has also 340 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 4: evolved as technology and demonstrations have been going to market. 341 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 4: We sit right next to Hitting It, which is one 342 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 4: of the local hydrogen startups, and so we get to 343 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 4: kind of see firsthand many of their challenges and opportunities 344 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 4: that they're bringing. And you've mentioned trucking aviation as two 345 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 4: kind of tricky things to crack, where hydrogen type fuels 346 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 4: are showing real promise and that's making real headway. The 347 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 4: other I think thing to understand in the hydrogen space 348 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 4: is that the production of molecules, cleaner molecules has really 349 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 4: broad implications, and so some of those plants that might 350 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 4: have initially looked just at hydrogen are now looking at 351 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 4: things like green methanol and other types of cleaner molecules 352 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 4: that can be used in similar ways. So it is 353 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 4: a really remarkable resource for many purposes. But transports one 354 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 4: big one. New molecules is another. The ability to store 355 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 4: energy and really remote places where you've got an abundance 356 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 4: of renewable energy is where hydrogen really is coming into 357 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:40,439 Speaker 4: its own. So we are seeing lots of demonstrations or 358 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 4: opportunities to demonstrate hydrogen US. 359 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we've got great startups. 360 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 1: Some thinking of b Speckle again in the Wellington region, 361 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: came out of Gens Science is working on green hydrogen 362 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: building catalysts, highly efficient catalysts for that. We've got companies 363 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 1: working on ammonia. 364 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 2: And things like that. 365 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: To what extended you seeing and backing innovation that is 366 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: coming out in New Zealand versus applying innovation and technology 367 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: from overseas. 368 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 4: So yeah, in the hydrogen space, some of the manufacturing 369 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 4: of so yeah, the kind of electrodes and stuff is 370 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 4: often coming from overseas because there's that type of technology 371 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 4: is well, that fabrication is done on a lot cheaper 372 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 4: or faster overseas, But the application of it is is 373 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 4: where in New Zealand has lots of interesting opportunities where 374 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 4: we've just got lots of renewable potential, lots of other 375 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 4: kinds of molecules that can be blended with hydrogen to 376 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 4: create lots of new compounds. So that's part of the 377 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 4: real opportunity where some of their hydrogen outfits a LENI 378 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 4: into in New Zealand. But then the other big one 379 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 4: is we are long spread out country where we don't 380 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 4: have you know, really established rail networks, so most of 381 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 4: our things move around on trucks, and helping those to 382 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 4: decarbonize quickly has now been demonstrated and in market with 383 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 4: the hydrogen trucking fleet that we see moving around the 384 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 4: cylinder already. 385 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 1: Melissa, from from your point of view, you've been a director, 386 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: shareholder and numerous companies. In terms of what the constraints 387 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 1: are here, it's great that these companies are investing in innovation. 388 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: You know, they see the future. They're being quite proactive 389 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 1: in trying to pursue more clean energy. 390 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 2: What are some of the constraints? Is it capital? 391 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: You know, we hear so many media reports about all 392 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: this capacity that is going to come on online in 393 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: the next decade. There's so many solar or wind farms 394 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:58,719 Speaker 1: that are in the pipeline. But you know, the startup 395 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: world for a long time suffer from a lack of capital. 396 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: Is that similar in sort of when it comes to 397 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: energy projects. Do we have deep pocketed investors who are 398 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: willing to put money into this stuff in New Zealand? 399 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 3: This is so interesting, Like I always say, I was, 400 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 3: you know, one of the founders of lightning lab in Wellington, 401 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 3: and you know, it was on the board at Creative 402 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 3: HQ and so on, and I've been around that startup 403 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 3: community for so long. I think there's quite a lot 404 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 3: of debate in the startup community about access to capital. 405 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 3: And it feels to me that really good startups get 406 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 3: funded in New Zealand where we have and we talk 407 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 3: about this valley of death. Where we have a real 408 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 3: problem in New Zealand is between the startup and the 409 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 3: scale up. And so you know, I think finding angel 410 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 3: money to start something is actually not impossible, and New 411 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 3: Zealanders do have that. I think we're quite capital efficient, 412 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,199 Speaker 3: you know, we're willing to put our own houses on 413 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 3: the line and get things going. Where it gets tricky 414 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 3: is where you need you know, fifty to hundred mil 415 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,719 Speaker 3: to take it to market and to really scale it, 416 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 3: and I think that gap is still there. I read 417 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 3: this morning that open Star has got thirty five mil 418 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 3: in new money, and I'm really excited for them on 419 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 3: that because that project is probably you know, I don't, 420 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 3: I haven't. I don't know what their projections are, but 421 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 3: I suspect they're going to need at least one hundred mil. 422 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 3: And I think it's that that middle bit. You know, 423 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 3: once you need a billion, you probably get it because 424 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 3: the world markets will invest in you. At that point. 425 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 3: We can look at things like you know, we've seen 426 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 3: it in some recent agritech in New Zealand with Culture 427 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 3: doing brilliant valuations. But I think the valley of death 428 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 3: is in the middle bit, and that's where we're trying 429 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 3: to help New Zealand companies get a bit more of 430 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 3: an unfair advantage I suppose, in the sense of being 431 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 3: able to demonstrate scale, demonstrate that R and D can 432 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 3: be taken and used in the wild in order to 433 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,479 Speaker 3: help them to scale. So that's where I see that 434 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 3: the problem is. I think startup money is not a problem. 435 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 3: We look around New Zealand there are masses of programs 436 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 3: to help startups. You know, it's like everybody seems to 437 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 3: have a startup incubator attached to them. But getting from 438 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 3: there to scale is the really difficult. 439 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 2: But yeah, Daniel, what's your approach? 440 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: How do you support these companies in terms of you 441 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: put some investment in but are these multi year investments? 442 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: Do they have a finite time span? And how do 443 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: you measure success? 444 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 4: Decision making criteria follows an impact framework that Idiarka was 445 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 4: set up to kind of utilize, which really looks at 446 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 4: the decarbonization impact, the sustainability of that kind of technology, 447 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 4: also the price point that that technology might be realized 448 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 4: in market, as well as a number of other factors. 449 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 4: That the key thing that we're really looking for is 450 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 4: how well it will fit within the New Zealand energy 451 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 4: system and the impact will make to the New Zealand 452 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 4: energy system. So we do take that whole of system's 453 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 4: approach when we're considering the innovations that we get behind 454 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 4: and support. So that's the really cool and interesting, but 455 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 4: really complicated thing for us to be able to do 456 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 4: because we're not just looking at electricity. We are looking 457 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 4: at all energy sources and how best the innovation can 458 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 4: actually support or help transition our system as a whole. 459 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: And you've invested right across the board as we have discussed. 460 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,400 Speaker 1: But when it comes for bang for back or real gains, 461 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: we can get quickly is there any particular area, is 462 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: it transport, is it industrial heat, is it something else where? 463 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 1: It's like wow, I can see real emissions reduction coming 464 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 1: from that in the short to midterms. 465 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 3: So there's no silver bullet. 466 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 4: So we need to be always starting with that that 467 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 4: if we look at flexibility as an opportunity in New Zealand, 468 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 4: it has been articulated in many different ways. Now Echo 469 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 4: has put out a report last week that has start 470 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 4: to re quantify how much flexible potential there is within 471 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 4: New Zealand. But realizing that potential asn't something that can 472 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 4: be done with one technology or one participant. It is 473 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 4: growing the flexible resource through a number of different technologies, 474 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 4: communications protocols, controlling protocols, as well as getting the purchases 475 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 4: of that flexibility kind of established to understand how to 476 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 4: evaluate it, how to procure it, how to signal it. 477 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 4: So there's a number of pieces that have to be 478 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 4: kind of established and matured to realize some of these 479 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 4: big opportunities that New Zealand has in front of it. 480 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 3: I think too, you know, on one hand, there's the 481 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 3: climate piece. When I come back in a full circle 482 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 3: to the beginning of the conversation where we're thinking about 483 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 3: short termism versus long termism, the cost imperative is now 484 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 3: the short term thing in many ways, cost and availability. 485 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 3: I'm not trying to discount our need to deal with 486 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 3: climate issues we have to, but as a country we 487 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 3: are facing some real issues around resilience and affordability. We've 488 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 3: got all of that to deal with. And this is 489 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 3: what I like about what Daniel's saying about. OK, We're 490 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 3: trying to take a system wide approach, and so it 491 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 3: will involve climate, it will involve affordability, and it involves resilience. 492 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 3: And a piece of that resilience is availability and flexibility. 493 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 3: So can we have the energy we need, can we 494 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 3: get it to the people who need it when they 495 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 3: need it, whatever form of generation that might be in. 496 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 3: And I think that's going to be such a big 497 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 3: issue for us in New Zealand. 498 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you both have lined company experience, and Daniel 499 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: spent the best part of a decade a power co 500 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: and Melissa, you know, you were on the board of 501 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: Aligned Company. In terms of all the innovation that technically 502 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: could be going on there, you talking about things like 503 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: you mentioned, you know, sort of micro production for resilience 504 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: in the region's virtual power plants. Peer to peered trading 505 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: is being done in some parts of the world new 506 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: tariff models. Do we have the infrastructure to support these 507 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: sorts of innovations? And you know, what do we need 508 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: to do to stimulate more of that. 509 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 3: Look, this is why I like this idea of taking 510 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 3: a system wide point of view, and I'll give you 511 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 3: an example, and like this is not at a kind 512 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,479 Speaker 3: of a discussion we've had there, but this is what 513 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 3: I see is that something like the Center Port battery program, 514 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 3: where we can really look at it and go, how 515 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 3: do we use industrial scale batteries to put resilience into 516 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 3: a business. You can take that same sort of thing 517 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 3: put it together with like a black current where we're 518 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 3: enabling rural microgrids, and we should in New Zealand, I believe, 519 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 3: be looking at some of our rural towns, particularly in 520 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 3: the South Island, and working with them to put in 521 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 3: community batteries, microgrids, community solar I can't see any other 522 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 3: solution in the shorter to medium term for that because 523 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 3: our ability to replace some of those bag lines that 524 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 3: are out to rural New Zealand. We're going to have 525 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 3: more storms, We're having more gabriels, you know, more floods, 526 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 3: Like we need to be thinking about those. And that's 527 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 3: why I like what Daniel was saying about It's not 528 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 3: one bullet, it's like how can we put batteries together 529 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 3: with microgrids and perhaps distributed generation and take some of 530 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 3: these small towns and make them highly resilient. And that's 531 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 3: where I'm excited. 532 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: Any really sort of underrated technologies or approaches Daniel that 533 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 1: you see that might not be the sexiest technologies or 534 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: be about green hydrogen or a fusion, but actually can 535 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: deliver real winds that you've backed. 536 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 4: New Zealand's always looked at hot water as it's you know, 537 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 4: lowest hanging fruit, as a as a battery, as a 538 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 4: as a cheap alternative for flexibility in New Zealand and 539 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 4: and we have used it a lot around the sector 540 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 4: for a long time really successfully. What's been exciting to 541 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 4: see is the innovation that's really thrived around hot water 542 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 4: as something that the energy sector in New Zealand has 543 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 4: has understood for a very long time. It is getting disrupted, 544 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 4: well enhanced a lot more, should we say, by much 545 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 4: more advanced controlling protocols that can really make the most 546 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 4: out of hot water. And one of the really small 547 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 4: companies that we've supported recently is this one called one 548 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 4: Energy that basically has a solar to hot water solution 549 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 4: that is direct from the roof down to the cylinder, 550 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 4: and as basically trying to make the most out of 551 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 4: cheap sola and hot water control without having to have 552 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 4: expensive inverders and other kinds of connections. And it's those 553 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 4: kinds of things. There's in a number of other ones 554 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 4: on our box, some that I can talk about something 555 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 4: I'm not allowed to just yet, that are looking at 556 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 4: controlling hot water in a really clever way as well 557 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,959 Speaker 4: at a really really low cost. And so that's that's 558 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 4: some of the understated ones that we're seeing kind of 559 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 4: moving showing real promise already in this in ZI sector. Well, 560 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 4: Melissa probably has some other cool ones on her books. 561 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: I'm just going to say, my friend, he does that 562 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 1: to heat a swimming pool, you know, So he has 563 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: so he's got he's got a network of pipes up 564 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: on the roof, you know, and they heat up and 565 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: any transfers that down. So it's a low cost way. 566 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: So I guess when you ramp that up and you 567 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: scale that up, you know, our manufacturers, anyone who needs 568 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: heat in their process could take advantage of that. 569 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 4: You asked earlier about distribution networks. The other really interesting 570 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,359 Speaker 4: but you know, I guess coming from that sector has 571 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 4: been that the value proposition of the network is changing 572 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 4: as distributed energy is becoming really mainstream, and those networks 573 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 4: that are really embracing the change and role are seeing 574 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 4: some really awesome benefits and how their communities are responding 575 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 4: to them. And Araki's been supporting a number of community 576 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 4: energy initiatives, including creating kind of a guide to help 577 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 4: communities get started. And what we're seeing is the biggest 578 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 4: change is the way in which networks start to actually 579 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 4: engage and understand what a community wants and then how 580 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 4: they actually bring that thinking into their planning and design 581 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 4: of the network. And you know, it's not a technological innovation, 582 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 4: but it is quite a remarkable process innovation that we're 583 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 4: seeing as part of of what's happening around in New 584 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:01,959 Speaker 4: Zealand at. 585 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: The moment, Melissa, there's a number of critics of the 586 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 1: energy sort of system in New Zealand asking for structural 587 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: change here. Rodderery, for instance, has been on my podcast 588 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: and talked about that that we have too many players, 589 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 1: that you have generators and retailers that don't necessarily have 590 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: aligning interest all the time and the interests of their 591 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: customers front of mind. Are there any sort of in 592 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: your mind regulatory or market design hurdles that you keep 593 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: running into that you know if we remove them, you'd 594 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: make so much more progress. 595 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 3: I always find interesting in New Zealand. You know, we're 596 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 3: the size of Melbourne right the whole country by population, 597 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,280 Speaker 3: or with the size of Philadelphia, where you know I studied, 598 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 3: or Manchester for scale, and yet we have like so 599 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 3: much local government, so much you know, each area has 600 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 3: its own life company and so on. And I do 601 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 3: think the government is thinking about amalgamation and how we 602 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 3: might become more streamlined. And it does seem to me 603 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,760 Speaker 3: that if we're going to solve some of these problems, 604 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 3: we have to solve them through collaboration and cooperation. Now, 605 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 3: whether that means amalgamation or not, that's more of a 606 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 3: political decision. But you know what I do like about 607 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 3: the South Island is I feel like the South Island 608 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 3: Alliance companies play well together and how along with some 609 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 3: of the big providers, and so I think that's where 610 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 3: we have to go as a country. We have to 611 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 3: really we're not big enough to have the level of 612 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 3: competition that we have. And so for me, i'd like 613 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 3: to see the regulatory regime enable better collaboration and perhaps, 614 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 3: in my personal opinion, it may have swung too much 615 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 3: to competition. 616 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: And Daniel, you know, seven point ten millions great, but 617 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: it's really it's pretty modest in the scheme of things. 618 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: You know, when you're trying to seed innovation, if you 619 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 1: had seventy million a year, which in my opinion, you 620 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: should have, what would you do with it? Would you 621 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,800 Speaker 1: just put more into those projects or are there lots 622 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 1: of other out there? Would you fund more projects? Is 623 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,720 Speaker 1: there that capacity for innovation out there? 624 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,319 Speaker 4: So we're really grateful for the funding we do get 625 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:24,920 Speaker 4: from MB and we do have a real interest in 626 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 4: the sector, from innovators and from industry on the challenges 627 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 4: that we're facing in the energy transition. So there is 628 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 4: a lot more that can always be done with more money. 629 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 4: Whether the types of innovations that would get behind would 630 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 4: be different, probably not, because we do think really carefully 631 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 4: about where we put our money and who we support 632 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 4: and how and what impact it's going to have. But 633 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 4: it is it is a natural all response from most. 634 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 4: More money is always going to make things easier. But 635 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 4: but we we do think really caret about where we 636 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 4: put our money. Obviously more could do more for our innovators, 637 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,839 Speaker 4: but we do put a lot of effort as well 638 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 4: to making sure that our innovators can be supported by 639 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 4: other mechanisms as soon as possible as well. 640 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,879 Speaker 1: And look, you you live and work in in Taranaki, 641 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:35,920 Speaker 1: where the you know, the center is based. You know, 642 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: I've got a lot of friends out there, some of 643 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,839 Speaker 1: them in oil and gas, and they're you know, they're 644 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,839 Speaker 1: worried about their future. There's probably a thousand engineers up 645 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: there that it's not that line of work really anywhere 646 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: else in New Zealand? 647 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 2: Is there? 648 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: What's the vibe there, what's the Is there optimism that 649 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: in the in the Taranaki region that there is a 650 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: pathway to transition to renewables and maintain a good standard 651 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:00,439 Speaker 1: of living for people in region? 652 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 4: There is optimism, but we are in the middle of 653 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:07,920 Speaker 4: a transition so and transitions, no matter which way you 654 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 4: look at it, are always challenging, right. But what I 655 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 4: really do love about the attitude and kind of I 656 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 4: guess response that I'm seeing from engineers in the region 657 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 4: to the challenges that they're seeing is how quickly they 658 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,800 Speaker 4: are adapting and how quickly. Are they are embracing innovation 659 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,799 Speaker 4: or even trying to seed new new markets with the 660 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:37,719 Speaker 4: innovation that they're producing. So like a small engineering kind 661 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 4: of firm TIS here in Taranaki has basically created a 662 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 4: new kind of hydrogen plant that can be used in 663 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 4: remote sites as part of their kind. 664 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 3: Of new ventures. 665 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 4: Others, others like Fitzroy Engineering that had often supported the 666 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 4: oil and gas sector, are now supporting the growth and geothermal. 667 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 4: So they're still using their skills, adapting them slightly or 668 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 4: creating entire new industries. And that's really promising to see. 669 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,360 Speaker 4: But yes, you do notice things pretty quickly in a 670 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 4: small town because everyone knows each other and is there 671 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 4: to look out for each other. So we are in 672 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:25,760 Speaker 4: the middle of a transition here in the region. 673 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 1: And just finally, Melissa, public consciousness of where our energy 674 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 1: comes from how much it costs, is really increased in 675 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 1: the last couple of years as we've seen news of 676 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: sort of plants shutting down and people literally paying more 677 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: for energy. We're in election, y, do you expect this 678 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,240 Speaker 1: to be a topic of discussion going into the election 679 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: among political parties? What they are planning to outline in 680 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,280 Speaker 1: terms of that transition and the resilience are energy resilience 681 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: You think that's going to be an election year issue? 682 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,400 Speaker 3: It well, and my hope this is the optimist in me. 683 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 3: My hope is that we start to have these grown 684 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 3: up conversations about what we need intergenerationally, what are our 685 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 3: children in the need, not just shall we fight for 686 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 3: the past. And I mean that as a futurist, what 687 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 3: I often see is people wanting to recreate the conditions 688 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,040 Speaker 3: that they felt with some golden day in the past. 689 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,439 Speaker 3: And what I would hope for as we go into 690 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 3: the selection is that all parties think about resilience, affordability 691 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:37,319 Speaker 3: for the long term and not just kind of let's 692 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,879 Speaker 3: fight for the past and or let's borrow money off 693 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 3: our children to continue something that we know is finite. 694 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:47,280 Speaker 3: So that's my hope. 695 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for coming on a business of tech 696 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: and keep up the great work. We'll keep an eye 697 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 1: and have you back on down the track when some 698 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,480 Speaker 1: of these projects we've got a little bit further along. 699 00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,760 Speaker 3: Thanks for mate, Thank you have a great days. 700 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,839 Speaker 1: Thanks to Daniel and Melissa for coming on. Yeah, so look, 701 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,960 Speaker 1: I think we can celebrate our high share of renewable 702 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:19,279 Speaker 1: electricity going into the grid. But as they both pointed out, 703 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,439 Speaker 1: the real story is more fragile, with lake levels, process heat, 704 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 1: rural resilience all exposing big gaps in our energy system. 705 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:28,279 Speaker 2: We're feeling it in. 706 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 1: Electricity pricing right now. We learn how AKA is trying 707 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: to close those gaps with relatively limited funding, backing everything 708 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,759 Speaker 1: from the fusion stuff, the hydrogen stuff, to the unsexy 709 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:45,440 Speaker 1: but powerful ideas like smarter hot water control, community batteries, 710 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 1: rural microgrids. I think it's reminded that innovation is not 711 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,840 Speaker 1: just about new hardware and great new ideas. It's about 712 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 1: the business models, the market design, and giving companies the 713 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: support they need to scale from promising pilots to nationwide deployment. 714 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 1: Perhaps the biggest takeaway for me is that if we 715 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:09,879 Speaker 1: really want reliable, affordable, low emissions energy, we need long 716 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,719 Speaker 1: term system wide thinking, not just quick political wins. And 717 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,439 Speaker 1: that's something that will be tested, I think this year 718 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: as we approach the election. Thanks so much for listening 719 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 1: to the Business of Tech. If you enjoyed the episode, 720 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,320 Speaker 1: follow the show, leave a review and shared with someone 721 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 1: who cares about where New Zealand's energy future is heading. 722 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,600 Speaker 1: I'll be back next Thursday with another episode, and i'll 723 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:31,120 Speaker 1: catch you then