1 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Kilda. 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Altierowa's complicated 4 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 2: history of land sales is the focus of a new 5 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 2: series from the New Zealand Herald. Fenowa Our Land a 6 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 2: History is an interactive map showing how Mauldi Land passed 7 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 2: into Pakihart ownership and the stories surrounding it. It confronts 8 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,599 Speaker 2: questions some of us prefer not to ask because they 9 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 2: raise uncomfortable issues about Altieroa's colonial legacy and how those 10 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 2: impacts are still being felt today. Later we'll discuss the 11 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 2: decision to make this series with Chief Content Officer for 12 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 2: the Herald and ends at me Murray Kirkness. But first 13 00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 2: on the front Page we get to the story of 14 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 2: Yati Batua Urake with their trust's deputy, chech Nari Mubled. 15 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,479 Speaker 2: Let's start in the early eighteen hundreds. Can you give 16 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 2: us an idea of how much land was owned or 17 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 2: controlled by Nyati fatua Uraki prior to the Treaty of 18 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 2: White Hungi being signed? 19 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 3: Sure? 20 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 4: So? 21 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 3: Our people, more correctly, are made up of three subtribes, 22 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 3: the Tatou people, the Najor people and the Turning Nutu people, 23 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 3: and between those three subtribes and the various chiefs and leaders, 24 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 3: we had a network of major kainga or village complexes 25 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 3: on both the northern shores of the Monoco Harbor and 26 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 3: the Waa Mata and the White Mata. When we speak 27 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 3: of that, we're talking between MoMA Uika which is north 28 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 3: Head on the north shore in Takapartafo, boy Kelli, Tultan's 29 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 3: on Tamiki Drive and all parts northwest of that. So 30 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 3: we hit our network of major living complexes where all 31 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 3: of those three subtribes would be based during the winter months, 32 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 3: so about now. One of those was at Onni Hunger 33 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 3: and mangade A Mangoda Bridge there he could walk across 34 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 3: at low tide in those days not so much mud, 35 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 3: and on the Waitamata all around Hodson Bay, which we 36 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 3: call Waitatamah in Okahu Bay. So that's where all the 37 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 3: people were living during the colder winter months. But in 38 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 3: the summer months from spring onwards really right through to 39 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 3: kind of April early May, all of the various leaders 40 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 3: of each of the families and clans would be heading 41 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 3: out all along those coastlines. Of the northern monuco from 42 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 3: Mangade over to Afi to cross to Kadanga Hape which 43 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 3: is Cornwallace, out to Fatipu and Huya on the west 44 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 3: coast and then all up the way to Mata Harbor. 45 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 3: In those months have just spent fishing and processing fish, 46 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 3: mainly smoking them and also collecting seafood cockles to a 47 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 3: tour pippy smoking them, preserving them and also going into 48 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 3: the naheeded the bush. There's lots of bush then all 49 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 3: through our region not so much now getting all of 50 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 3: the birds and preserving them in their fats. And they 51 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 3: would have done that out on these satellite fishing villages 52 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 3: dotted across those coastlines, so we have names left to us. 53 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 3: Way Paper which is in the eastern end of the 54 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,119 Speaker 3: CBD bottom of Stanley Street is a fishing village au 55 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 3: or too at bottom of Queen Street, Fort Street now 56 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 3: and over at Tetoor which is at Victoria Park and 57 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 3: today who at the back of the zoo. So that 58 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 3: all of these villagers teeming with people working industriously out 59 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 3: harvesting all of those natural resources through the warmer month 60 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 3: and then when winter comes around moving back to those 61 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 3: base camps at way to the more Hobson Bay and 62 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 3: over on the Monuco at Orni Hunger and Mangadere. So 63 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 3: that really was the extent of the land in our 64 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 3: tribal area of those people. Today we called the Nati 65 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 3: Pa to Ki, but that's really a reflection of you know, 66 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 3: we lost control of all of that area that I 67 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 3: just described. With the fishing circuits and the hunting circuits 68 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 3: for birds, we were whittled away down to one quarter 69 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 3: of an acre, which was all we had left at Kae, 70 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 3: which yeah, it was our name today, but I don't 71 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 3: really like that name because it really highlights that we 72 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 3: were actually the masters of the holessness and not just 73 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 3: the ford of an acre land that we had left 74 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 3: at dark. But acreage was maybe around eighty thousand acres, 75 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,559 Speaker 3: which isn't that big, probably a small farm or station 76 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 3: in South Island. 77 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 4: W oh Yea. 78 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 3: Hits You Hiraki hits You Hiraki. 79 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 4: Nah Naya my Tea it Chiku Dekotu Kuya Deo Cairo 80 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 4: Kau katsu Yu. 81 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 2: He Well, it was around eighteen forty when the Ewe 82 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 2: made their first sale. Three thousand hectares were sold for 83 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 2: fifty pounds in coins and goods amounting to around two 84 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 2: hundred and fifteen pounds, which is twenty six thousand dollars 85 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 2: in today's money. That's the land we were describing, hey, 86 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 2: between Hobson Bay, Cox Bay and Mount Eden. What was 87 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 2: the ewei's understandings of this sale. 88 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, we didn't have a word for sale. The only 89 00:05:54,920 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 3: way you lost your manna, your authority and land forever 90 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 3: endeavor was by traditional warfare. And traditional warfare you didn't 91 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 3: really want to get into too much unless you had 92 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 3: expansion plans, of course, and we didn't experience that here 93 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 3: in Auckland with the settlers. There was no war here, 94 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 3: and therefore our view of that transaction was just that 95 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 3: a transaction. Our experience and our custom for well I 96 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,559 Speaker 3: guess five millennia through the Pacific and ultimately an altered 97 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 3: or in the South Pacific was to exchange land rights 98 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 3: and use rights with partners and parties external to you 99 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 3: who you wanted to either maintain a relationship with or 100 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 3: start a relationship with. And we had done that with 101 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 3: our eastern border neighbors and anti power in the seventeen hundreds. 102 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 3: We wanted to start a relationship with them, so we 103 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 3: had a good ally on our eastern border, one to 104 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,799 Speaker 3: avoid conflict, but also to have an ally in times 105 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 3: of need. So land around Pamuir was given to them 106 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 3: with the expectation that the underlying manna and title and 107 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 3: authority stayed with the givers of the land, and that 108 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 3: was us. So that was our custom, and there was 109 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 3: certainly what was in our chief's minds. At eighteen forty. 110 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 3: We had very little experience with Europeans. They were all 111 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 3: based in the Bay of Islands in the South Island, 112 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 3: hunting whales and seals and the light. We did have 113 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 3: one visit from Samuel Marsden, Reverend Samuel Marsden in eighteen twenty. 114 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 3: He had a look around. We tried our best to 115 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 3: keep him here, but he ultimately left. So, yeah, we 116 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 3: didn't have paker around here, a lot of them, so 117 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 3: we didn't know what a cash economy was, and we 118 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 3: certainly didn't know what you know, if he gave someone 119 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 3: a use rights to something, that bit of paper with 120 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 3: some ink on it written in Pakiha meant that you 121 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 3: lost your authority and monere in it forever. So the 122 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 3: first three thousand acres, the transaction We certainly don't call 123 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 3: it a sale. We call it a takura or a 124 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 3: taku fenoma, which is the traditional giving of land for 125 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 3: someone to use whilst you were in a mutually beneficial relationship. 126 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 3: And that was in our minds. We wanted pakiha here, 127 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 3: and we wanted to trade, and we wanted to buy 128 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 3: their good stuff, and in the early days we turned 129 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 3: down their bad stuff like whiskey and beer. They would 130 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 3: provide a market for us, and they would get to 131 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 3: use the land unmolested and free to use as long 132 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:47,479 Speaker 3: as they wanted it. And that was certainly the early understanding, 133 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 3: and obviously as time went on, our understanding of European 134 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 3: thoughts of land tenure and ownership were quite different. By 135 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 3: the close of the eighteen fifty we were definitely selling 136 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 3: land by then with a greater understanding that we needed 137 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 3: to get a good price because in the parker her eyes, 138 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 3: it was their land forever and ever to do with 139 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 3: whatever they so choose and wishful. 140 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 2: I think some people reading this series or listening to 141 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 2: this podcast will ask if the EWE knew or got 142 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 2: the understanding of what those sales really meant. That the 143 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 2: settlers were going to go on to sell that land 144 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 2: to someone else. Why do you think that EWE kept 145 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 2: engaging in these kind of deals. Was it a real 146 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 2: effort to try and understand and live as one? 147 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 3: I guess well, we were implementing our own survival strategy. 148 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 3: Someone armed the northern tribes to the teeth with a 149 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 3: huge arsenal of muskets and guns, gained in Sydney, but 150 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 3: funded somehow through England. So we were ravaged by wars 151 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 3: in the eighteen twenties and early eighteen thirties. War swept 152 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 3: up from the south as well, every now and then 153 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 3: again with the introduction of muskets, which had been around 154 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 3: for a few generations but at that period really took 155 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 3: on a life of its own. So the whole island 156 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 3: was in a state of calamity really just before the 157 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 3: treaty was signed, and I guess when the Empire decided 158 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 3: to officially annex the country. Noting also before the treaty 159 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 3: there were a lot of entrepreneurs coming out of Europe 160 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:42,239 Speaker 3: down here looking to make their fortunes in the entipities. 161 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 3: And so yeah, really it was a very unsettled period. 162 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 3: We're looking for new allies, old allies and Martydom had 163 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:55,199 Speaker 3: become less so given the musket wars that had just happened, 164 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 3: And so we were definitely an ew that sought a 165 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 3: new future and one with a new great power to 166 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 3: British Empire, the greatest empire the earth is known, really, 167 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,959 Speaker 3: and how best could we engage with it to ensure 168 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 3: our survival And part of that was to treat with 169 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 3: them as much as we could as equals and to 170 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 3: open up our lands for European settlement. Who knows what 171 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 3: our ancestors were thinking, but perhaps they saw the riding 172 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 3: on the wall that if we didn't engage the way 173 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 3: we did, perhaps we'd be wiped off the face of 174 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,719 Speaker 3: the planet, as I'm sure they were hearing by then 175 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 3: stories of other indigenous peoples across the world suffering that 176 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 3: kind of fate. So yeah, glass half full. We wanted 177 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 3: to make people feel welcome, of course, but we wanted 178 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,959 Speaker 3: to trade. We can see that our chiefs of that 179 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 3: era being very proactive in terms of trading, trying to 180 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 3: drive an income that they could then plow back into 181 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 3: the future of their people. Noting that these ships kept 182 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 3: arriving and people kept pouring off them and moving into 183 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:00,079 Speaker 3: the lands that we had given, gifted, transacted and and 184 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:01,959 Speaker 3: later sold some of the blocks. 185 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 2: If you had to put a figure on it, how 186 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 2: much do you think the land sold in the nineteenth 187 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 2: century is worth today? 188 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 3: Well, I actually did a calculation recently. The first transaction 189 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 3: in September eighteen forty. The boundaries we actually agreed on 190 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 3: went from Cox's Bay to Saint George's Bay. Now that's 191 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,319 Speaker 3: all po to Kicker to Matajade Judde St George's Bay 192 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 3: along where the Staratzi's building is, and both of those 193 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 3: points into mona Pho Mount Eden the summit. That's three 194 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 3: thousand acres. However, when the deed was finally drafted up 195 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 3: nearly a year later, the officials of the crown had 196 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 3: said that Matahudi Hudder was further east over at the 197 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 3: bottom of air Street and New Market, and with the 198 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 3: stroke of a pen we lost five hundred acres through 199 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 3: that clerical era, it would be the nice way to 200 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 3: put it, so that five hundred acres three thousand and 201 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 3: four thousand dollars a square meter. Today my rudimentary calculator 202 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 3: on my phone, it only came up with letters, so 203 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 3: it must be a big number. 204 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 2: So that was what twenty six thousand dollars today. I mean, 205 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 2: it's just astronomical how much it would cost today. 206 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so you know it's a big number. We 207 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 3: all know, everyone knows it, but we won't dwell on it, 208 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 3: otherwise we might cry too much. Well, Bestian Point was 209 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 3: sleeping this morning. The police were on the move. 210 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: And by this time next week they'll be off Bastian Point. 211 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 3: I promise you that that. 212 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,439 Speaker 5: Rob Muldoon, who was Prime Minister at the time, had 213 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 5: plans to develop the Fenua for the purpose of housing 214 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 5: the wealthy, had nothing to do with housing mighty people. 215 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 3: Nazi fast through it. 216 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 6: The aim was to maintain the last peas of land 217 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 6: in Naeti fat for the people of Auraki. It led 218 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 6: to the tribunal, It led to the treaty settlement claims process. 219 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 2: Nati Phatua Uraki has turned their fortunes around in recent decades. Right, 220 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 2: I believe the EWE had around one point six billion 221 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 2: dollars in assets as of twenty twenty two. How do 222 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 2: you feel about this reversal of four watunes in the 223 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 2: context of what has actually happened to your eat Wee 224 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 2: in the past. 225 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 3: Feels like the strategy employed seven generations ago, which was 226 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 3: to survive as best we could, knowing the onslaught about 227 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 3: to come, to make the best of it that we could. 228 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 3: That there will be a lot of suffering and pain, 229 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 3: and there certainly has been that. And by that I 230 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 3: mean we lost every single acre of our land. We 231 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,239 Speaker 3: became squatters on our own land. Technically and legally, we 232 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 3: lost all of our native forests in central Isthmus. We 233 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:37,479 Speaker 3: lost almost all of our shellfish grounds through reclamation and 234 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 3: the European propensity to discharge their raw surage into the sea. 235 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 3: We became paupers in our own land where once we 236 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 3: were the princes and the kings and queens. And so 237 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 3: only now it feels like the strategy to survive and 238 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 3: then be around to turn that story around is just 239 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 3: beginning with far well short of what we need to 240 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 3: reinvest back into our people in terms of housing, education, 241 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 3: cultural recovery of our language, stories, genealogies, and the luck. 242 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 3: So feel very humble to be in a position I 243 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 3: am and lucky to not have suffered the worst of it, 244 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 3: but with a lot of weight on our shoulders, myself 245 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 3: and my cousins to make sure we don't stuff it 246 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 3: up and that we keep building and that we as 247 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:34,359 Speaker 3: rapidly as possible turn the fortunes around of each individual 248 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 3: member who can claim to being Antifa to a key 249 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,359 Speaker 3: timaking Artifa to of Auckland. 250 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 2: There's a lot to the story of your eway and 251 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 2: people can read that full story from you at ens 252 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 2: at Herald dot co dot nz. But what would you 253 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 2: want people to take away from this, particularly those who 254 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 2: politically may not care or be interested in these kinds 255 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 2: of issues. 256 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 3: Strong Antifa to it is needed for our city and 257 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 3: for our country. Every person that we can reignite the fire, 258 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 3: relight the fire in them that is flickering away in 259 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 3: terms of who they are deep down as anti fat 260 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 3: to a Ketarmaki citizen. If we can get that flicker 261 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 3: of a flame going around their culture and identity, their 262 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 3: contribution to something bigger than themselves, whether that be with 263 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 3: our Hapu, our subtribes, or in their own communities, whether 264 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 3: at a rugby club, netball club, or bridge club or 265 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 3: whatever it is, can only be a great thing for 266 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 3: our country and mean spirited people who think that we 267 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 3: are somehow out there being greedy Mary's seeking things we 268 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 3: don't deserve, well, they simply need to read a basic 269 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 3: history of New Zealand to understand what our people have 270 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 3: been through and how humble we are and actually asking 271 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 3: for reparations of such a minor number in terms of 272 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 3: what has been across our economy on all sorts of 273 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 3: crazy hairbrain schemes by our governments and local governments. I mean, 274 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 3: we've managed to turn an eighteen million dollar cash settlement 275 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 3: for everything we lost. So it's eighteen million cash into 276 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 3: as you say, to a one point seven near one 277 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 3: point seven billion dollar estate today. And what do we 278 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 3: do with our money? We pour it all back into 279 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 3: our people. Where the health system fails, where the education 280 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 3: system fails, where the housing market fails. We are pouring 281 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 3: our money back into trying to plug those gaps. We're 282 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 3: not pouring it into our batches and second, third or 283 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 3: fourth homes in Fiji or south of France. Our money 284 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 3: is going back into our people. And I don't know 285 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 3: anyone with some common sense who would think that that's 286 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 3: a terrible thing. 287 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us Natimo. The release of Benawa this 288 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 2: week has been a long time coming for The Herald 289 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 2: to discuss the editorial thinking behind the series and the 290 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 2: sensitive nature of the topic. We're joined now by Chief 291 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 2: Content Officer for The Herald and enz ADM Murray Kirkness. Murray, 292 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 2: what was the thinking behind doing this series originally at all? 293 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 5: I think it's evolved over time, Chelsea. You know, it's 294 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,719 Speaker 5: been in the making for quite a long time and 295 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:23,719 Speaker 5: we've had an awful lot of help in doing so. 296 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 5: I guess though from our perspective, we're trying to provide 297 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 5: answers to some questions that some New Zealanders would probably 298 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 5: prefer we not even ask. You know, they do raise 299 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 5: some uncomfortable issues about our legacy, the country's legacy and 300 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 5: at the moment topics discussions. Opinions on treaty principles, for instance, 301 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 5: are obviously front and center for a great many people, 302 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 5: and it's an area that can be easily inflamed. It's 303 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 5: a place where there are strongly held opinion. From our 304 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 5: point of view, we're just trying to present the facts 305 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 5: of New Zealand's history. We would argue that, you know, 306 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 5: to face what's ahead, we have to know our past, 307 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 5: and so that's the reason for this project. 308 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 1: The main body of the New Zealand Wars took place 309 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: between eighteen forty three and eighteen seventy two. My generation 310 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: didn't learn much about them at school. What we did 311 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: learn was a sanitized version supporting New Zealand's reputation as 312 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 1: a paradise of racial harmony. 313 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 2: Because they're not really trying to be provocative at all, 314 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 2: but just laying out the facts, speaking to those involved 315 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 2: in experts and the audience can come to any conclusions 316 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 2: that they come to. 317 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's correct. As it says in the piece published today, 318 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 5: we hope the project will provide useful context for the 319 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 5: current political and social debates that we see going in. 320 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 5: We hope it can fill in some knowledge gaps for 321 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 5: some New Zealanders. We'd also hope it will spark a 322 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 5: few much needed conversations. Ideally they would be conversations though, 323 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 5: rather than rhetoric and yelling. Quite frankly, I think we 324 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 5: do suffer a little bit from the inflammatory nature of 325 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 5: the way topics like this are discussed. It's a very 326 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 5: easy subject to throw around labels like racists or colonial 327 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 5: or you know, and they often very charged terms. But 328 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 5: the reality is I think that you know, there's a 329 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 5: great many New Zealanders who don't necessarily know the country's 330 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 5: own past. It's not necessarily taught in our schools, and 331 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 5: we're hoping that Fenowa will help redress some of that balance. 332 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 2: Is there a concern about how the audience will respond 333 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 2: to this series? 334 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 5: I did about concerns. I think it has got the potential. 335 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 5: We all know that often a person's own worldview will 336 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 5: influence the way they react to any piece of journalism 337 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 5: or information. But we hope that most thinking people will 338 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 5: see it for what it actually is, which is a 339 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 5: fairly straightforward, but nevertheless in depth examination of our land, 340 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 5: our past, what happened in our history. As I said, 341 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 5: it's not taking a view on that, it's not taking 342 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 5: any political side, or it is literally saying this is 343 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,959 Speaker 5: what happened. It's a nice piece from Simon Wilson as 344 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 5: part of this package, in which he quotes historian Michael 345 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 5: King in his book The Penguin History of New Zealand, 346 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 5: who wrote, most New Zealanders, whatever their cultural backgrounds, are 347 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 5: good hearted, practical, common sensical, and tolerant. I'd like to 348 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 5: think that's still the case, despite the fact that we 349 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 5: know on occasion we can be. 350 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 3: Quick to judge. 351 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Murray and to read more about 352 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 2: how these land sales impacted all eWeek around alti Adowa 353 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 2: and the stories by ENZED Herald journalists including Julia Gable 354 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 2: and Chris Knox. Head to enzet Herold dot co dot zed. 355 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 2: Fenwa is a New Zealand Herald data led project supported 356 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:40,479 Speaker 2: by ENZED on air in association with Mauldi Land legal 357 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 2: expert Adrian Paul. That said, for this episode of the 358 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 2: Front Page, you can read more about today's stories and 359 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 2: extensive news coverage at enzet herold dot co dot zed. 360 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 2: The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sells with sound 361 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 2: engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front 362 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 2: Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and 363 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 2: tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.