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Speaker 1: Would you do with the honor of actually pressing that button?

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Speaker 2: Is it a big red button or is it?

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Speaker 3: So let's be clear, there's there's there's a there's a

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Speaker 3: red button, a yellow button on a green button.

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Speaker 1: Just press the green button, just the green But I'll

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Speaker 1: leave you with eleanor she'll go. She'll take you through with.

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Speaker 2: The stuff eleanorm in your head.

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Speaker 3: All operators shot pretty pretty okay, three two one p.

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Speaker 2: M william Book.

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Speaker 1: All on. Yeah, that whole chick It that was the moment.

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Speaker 4: History was made in Ellington last week, the first time

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Speaker 4: anywhere in the world a commercial company created and confined

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Speaker 4: plasma using what's called a levitated dipole reactor, a design

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Speaker 4: that's been described as inside out compared to the more

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Speaker 4: conventional tokamac approach that dominates the global nuclear fusion race.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to the Business of a Tech Powered by two Degrees.

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Speaker 4: I'm Peter Griffin, and this week's episode focuses on a

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Speaker 4: remarkable milestone for pioneering startup Open Star Technologies, which I

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Speaker 4: got to witness firsthand last week.

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Speaker 5: When you're building a fusion machine, you're trying to create

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Speaker 5: a superheated plasma. I mean, the reason We want to

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Speaker 5: get it really really hot. Is because we want the

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Speaker 5: particles in that plasma to hit each other and then

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Speaker 5: hit each other really really hard until about spresh together

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Speaker 5: in fuse. Right, that's why we call it fusion. To

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Speaker 5: get it hot enough to fuse and be economic, you

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Speaker 5: need to get to one hundred million to Now, one

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Speaker 5: hundred million degrees sounds like.

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Speaker 3: A lot, right.

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Speaker 5: Your kettle of water boils at one hundred degrees without

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Speaker 5: drop a million.

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Speaker 2: That plasma that you just saw was already a million degrees, and.

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Speaker 5: That was done with the equivalent of twenty household microwaves.

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Speaker 5: Our next machine will actually put in the amount of

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Speaker 5: heating power that you need to start to go to

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Speaker 5: to have those higher temperatures. Right, This device was built

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Speaker 5: to demonstrate a whole bunch of things, but at lower performance,

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Speaker 5: so we didn't turn everything up to eleven next time,

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Speaker 5: and with a support of a government funding that we're receiving,

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Speaker 5: we are going to turn everything up to eleven and

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Speaker 5: we're going to get up to those hundreds of millions

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Speaker 5: of degrees.

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Speaker 1: One hundred million degrees.

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Speaker 4: That was Ratu Matayra, the CEO and co founder of

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Speaker 4: open Star. The Wellington startup that features a team of

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Speaker 4: physicists and engineers in Wellington's narrowing a Gorge. They just

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Speaker 4: levitated a half ton superconducting magnet inside a vacuum chamber

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Speaker 4: and find plasma heated to over one million degree celsius.

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Speaker 2: They did it with the Prime Minister watching.

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Speaker 4: He was actually the one who pressed the big green

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Speaker 4: button to fire the plasma.

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Speaker 2: Why is this important?

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Speaker 4: Well open Star is one of our most ambitious startups

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Speaker 4: bar none, and it's hit a critical milestone in its

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Speaker 4: quest to build a nuclear fusion reactor, one that could

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Speaker 4: eventually delivered clean, virtually limitless energy. How do they do

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Speaker 4: it well. Instead of lining a chamber with magnets, Open

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Speaker 4: Star puts a single powerful magnet right in the middle

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Speaker 4: and floats it. No supports, no contact, just magnetic force

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Speaker 4: and four precision lasers holding it in place. It actually

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Speaker 4: mimics the Earth's own magnetosphere, and it could be simpler,

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Speaker 4: cheaper and easier to maintain than anything the big international

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Speaker 4: fusion projects are building. That's the big bet here. There

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Speaker 4: are a lot of nuclear fusion startups working on clean

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Speaker 4: perpetual energy. The Massive Eye project in France, with billions

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Speaker 4: of dollars in funding has the same goal, but open

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Speaker 4: Star sees major advantages in its fusion reactor design. Imagine

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Speaker 4: if that came from New Zealand and proved to be successful,

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Speaker 4: that would be huge for the country. Fusion has always

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Speaker 4: been thirty years away, at least for the best part

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Speaker 4: of the last seventy years.

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Speaker 2: Everyone in the industry knows that joke.

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Speaker 4: But with advances in high temperature superconductors, new material science,

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Speaker 4: and the fact that more than ten billion dollars in

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Speaker 4: private capital has flooded into about fifty fusion startups globally,

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Speaker 4: the timeline is starting to look a bit different. Finally,

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Speaker 4: so a lot of interest, But is open Star really

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Speaker 4: on track? Can a team of nearly eighty people in

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Speaker 4: Wellington compete with the billions being poured into the tokomak

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Speaker 4: projects overseas. That's the path from Junior, the prototype they

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Speaker 4: just demonstrated through Tahi and Onto, which they say could

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Speaker 4: approach commercial scale by the end of the decade. So

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Speaker 4: to help me unpack all of this, I've got Business

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Speaker 4: Desk journalist Greg Heral on the show. Greg covers the

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Speaker 4: startup space for Business Desk and has a physics degree

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Speaker 4: which comes in really handy during this conversation. Greg was

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Speaker 4: right there with me at the demonstration and he's been

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Speaker 4: tracking open Stars progress for several years now. He'll walk

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Speaker 4: us through exactly what happened, why it matters, and what

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Speaker 4: the road ahead looks like.

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Speaker 2: Let's get into it. Greg, Welcome to the Business of Tech,

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Speaker 2: first time.

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Speaker 1: On How are you doing good? Thanks Liza.

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Speaker 4: Well, we had a pretty cool afternoon yesterday at open Star.

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Speaker 2: It was pretty exciting in the room.

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Speaker 4: See all these people looking at this team of experts

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Speaker 4: physicists who've been working on this for the last couple

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Speaker 4: of years. All culminated in the Prime Minister pressing this

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Speaker 4: green button. Can you put in plane language for us

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Speaker 4: what they actually achieved yesterday levitating a half ton super

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Speaker 4: conducting magnet in a vacuum chamber, firing plasma. We saw

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Speaker 4: that happen on the screen twice. What does this mean

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Speaker 4: and how's this different to what they achieved in twenty

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Speaker 4: twenty four when they first fired plasma.

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Speaker 1: What they have is this big vacuum chamber that's got

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Speaker 1: about a billionth of an atmostandard atmosphere like what we

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Speaker 1: might be sitting in right now. So that's very thin,

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Speaker 1: as close to a vacuum as you can really get.

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Speaker 1: And inside that, yes, they have this big metal donut

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Speaker 1: weighs half a ton. And what's the point of that. Well,

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Speaker 1: inside that that donut is all of the super conducting magnets,

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Speaker 1: which have to be cooled down to something like at

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Speaker 1: least minus two hundred and forty degrees celsius for the

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Speaker 1: superconducting to work. And they are considered high temperature superconductors

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Speaker 1: despite being pretty darn cool. The original superconducting phenomena was

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Speaker 1: only seen at very cold temperatures with liquid helium, and

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Speaker 1: you're getting down to about nearly minus two seventy which

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Speaker 1: is very close to what is known as absolute zero

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Speaker 1: at minus two seven three point one five celsius. So

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Speaker 1: what this means is they need that magnet to hold

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Speaker 1: the fusion reaction in place whenever they get to the

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Speaker 1: point where they can do it, because if you don't

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Speaker 1: basically the sense that touches the outside air, the whole

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Speaker 1: thing falls apart and it doesn't work anymore. The other

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Speaker 1: thing is people, as a fusion citist from MIT said

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Speaker 1: to me when I talked him about three years ago, said,

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Speaker 1: most people think that the magnet field is to protect

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Speaker 1: the outside reactor from this heat, but it's only a

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Speaker 1: very thin amount of superhead. Guesses it's called plasma. Is

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Speaker 1: really to protect the reaction is more important than that.

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Speaker 1: So they've got to have all this in there, a

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Speaker 1: magnetic field to confine the plasma so the whole thing

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Speaker 1: might actually work, and it's very hard to get it

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Speaker 1: going on Earth.

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Speaker 4: Oh, it's been the best part of one hundred years.

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Speaker 4: They've been trying to do this right.

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Speaker 1: At least since the fifties. The Soviet Union came up

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Speaker 1: with the idea and the name of the Tokamuk, and

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Speaker 1: that is what most these big, big, very expensive reactor

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Speaker 1: experiments that have been overseas for a very long time.

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Speaker 1: You basically have this chamber surrounded by these big magnets.

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Speaker 1: They try to push the plasma that they create inside

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Speaker 1: so that the reaction can take place. What Openstar have

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Speaker 1: done is they've come up with a reactor that has

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Speaker 1: been described as inside out because the magnets inside the

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Speaker 1: chamber and the plasma, and it creates a ma neta

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Speaker 1: field based on Earth's magnetosphere, and it's a much more

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Speaker 1: natural shape. It's easier to contain the plasma.

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Speaker 4: They say, so from an engineering point of view, this

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Speaker 4: is a simpler way of doing it. The other players,

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Speaker 4: virtually all of them, are going for this tokamac design.

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Speaker 4: They line this chamber with magnets to try and keep

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Speaker 4: that plasma contained. These guys are flipping it, turning it

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Speaker 4: inside out, putting the magnet in the middle. But it

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Speaker 4: might be simpler, but then you have the challenge of

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Speaker 4: levitating a magnet.

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Speaker 1: It's got to float it. If it's got to float.

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Speaker 1: We saw it happen for and it floated there for

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Speaker 1: quite a few minutes, waiting for the Prime Minister to arrive.

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Speaker 1: They had it ready to lift up. As soon as

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Speaker 1: the Prime Minister walk from the door, they started energizing

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Speaker 1: the top magnet to lift it off the bottom standards

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Speaker 1: is sitting on and they have four lasers to keep

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Speaker 1: it in exactly the right place, firing from the outside.

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Speaker 1: While it's doing that, you can tell it's not sitting

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Speaker 1: on something because you could easily be fall to think

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Speaker 1: of was because it's slowly turning. That was incredible friction

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Speaker 1: and there whatsoever, and they could turn forever once it

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Speaker 1: got going.

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Speaker 4: If you gave it a push the simplicity. You're looking

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Speaker 4: at this thing. There's a big sort of doughnut type

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Speaker 4: sort of magnet in the middle, and then there's this

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Speaker 4: gleaming sort of surface.

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Speaker 2: What's it made out if? Is it titanium or is

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Speaker 2: it the same as steel.

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Speaker 1: Or I'm not quite sure what the actual material is,

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Speaker 1: But it's what's inside that's really matters. You've got you've

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Speaker 1: got the superconductor material. These are made of these tapes

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Speaker 1: of a certain type. We don't make them in New Zealand,

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Speaker 1: but they are. Actually there's a place in our heart

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Speaker 1: that actually puts them all together ready to use. And

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Speaker 1: there's also a they've got a painting and technology to

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Speaker 1: actually keep that cool inside for a long time.

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Speaker 4: So there's some really smart stuff they're having to do

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Speaker 4: here to make this so called levitating dipole work. Is

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Speaker 4: that keeping things super cool? The superconductive tape. There's also

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Speaker 4: the flux pump technology. You've got to keep that magnet charge.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's all in there as well, and that's a

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Speaker 1: painting in technology for Open Star and Robinson's research.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, tell us about where the genesis of that. You know,

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Speaker 4: we've got Robinson Research Institute here in Wellington. Ratumtyra came

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Speaker 4: from that organization, so as.

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Speaker 1: Part of Victoria University. Still it's a I guess you

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Speaker 1: could call it like I refer to it as an applot,

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Speaker 1: their Applied Physics Division. Whether that agree with that exactly,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. But they've got several places around around

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Speaker 1: the Wellington region and Tony Lower Hut. They are working

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Speaker 1: on hydrogen electric aircraft engines and I actually met with

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Speaker 1: a contingentent airbus last year who were meeting with open

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Speaker 1: Star and others to talk about the work they're doing there.

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Speaker 1: And they've got various mamor memorandum of understanding to to

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Speaker 1: work together. Funny enough, we had the meeting up an

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Speaker 1: open Star, but it was nothing to do with open Star.

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Speaker 1: And then over in Gracefield in a u K's away

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Speaker 1: in Lala Hut, they're working on a deep space drive,

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Speaker 1: also using high temperature superconductors and deep space drive. They've

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Speaker 1: already launched. Last year they launched parts of that into

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Speaker 1: space to the International Space Station and as far as

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Speaker 1: I know, they're still up there being tested and they

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Speaker 1: will come down sometime probably later this year and to

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Speaker 1: be checked out and see how they've they've gone so

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Speaker 1: all of these projects clearly, and the difference of the

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Speaker 1: Open Star is it's spun out as an actual commercial

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Speaker 1: company for various reasons, reasons. And Ratu is the chief

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Speaker 1: executive officer, he is the founder, and he has a

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Speaker 1: PhD in physics from Victoria University.

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Speaker 2: One incredible guy and just.

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Speaker 4: As a lot of our best entrepreneurs, just such a accessible, happy.

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Speaker 2: Go lucky guy.

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Speaker 4: Was hanging out with the Prime Minister there answering questions

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Speaker 4: off the bat. You didn't see the weight of this

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Speaker 4: momentous occasion on his shoulders, really, did you?

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Speaker 2: No? No?

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Speaker 1: And I've actually asked him the first time we had

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Speaker 1: an in depth interview. I actually asked how you cope

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Speaker 1: with the stress you wake up and at three in

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Speaker 1: the morning and go, oh my god, And he said

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Speaker 1: not very often.

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Speaker 2: So is this flux pump?

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Speaker 4: Is this genuine intellectual property that gives them an edge

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Speaker 4: of anyone else doing this?

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Speaker 1: Well, according to their website, that's part of the ip

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Speaker 1: the flux pump, along with the technology to keep that

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Speaker 1: levitating dipole call well, it's an operation. I'm not quite

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Speaker 1: sure how that will work in a commercial power plunt.

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Speaker 1: Should they ever get there. They've got a different plan

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Speaker 1: to get there. But I have been told by their

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Speaker 1: chief product officer, that's Thomas Berry, that the design will

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Speaker 1: however it ends up being, will operate continuously and should

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Speaker 1: only need about two weeks a year in downtime for maintenance.

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Speaker 1: So somehow that's going to keep on working as they

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Speaker 1: see it all year round as baseload electricity generation. And

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Speaker 1: it feels strange to be even talking about electricity generations.

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Speaker 1: It's so still so experimental, but they're talking about the

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Speaker 1: being up and running commercial in the twenty thirties. They're

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Speaker 1: not the only ones talking about being having commercial fusion

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Speaker 1: in the twenty thirties, but they say they've got the

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Speaker 1: several advantages that will allow them to get there.

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Speaker 4: Right, we'll talk about sort of the feel and the

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Speaker 4: race for fusion and who's in it.

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Speaker 2: But first of all, MIT had a crack.

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Speaker 4: At this, the LDX experiment, probably over a decade, nearly

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Speaker 4: twenty years ago, where they went for this levitating dipole design.

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Speaker 4: It's not a smart scientist actually got quite down the

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Speaker 4: track developing it. They pulled a plug on that. Why

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Speaker 4: did that happen?

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Speaker 1: It's hard to say because one of the people involved

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Speaker 1: in that, Darren Garnia, is now the chief science officer

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Speaker 1: at an open Star here and he was part of that.

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Speaker 1: And all I understand was they said, oh, okay, we've

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Speaker 1: done that. It's a science project.

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Speaker 4: We're done with it, and all the momentum is going

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Speaker 4: to the Tokomac design, wasn't it?

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Speaker 1: And el T is still sticking with the Tokemac. I

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Speaker 1: did speak to one of their scientists a couple of

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Speaker 1: years ago. He happened to be in town the same

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Speaker 1: week I went to see Ratu and Darren for the

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Speaker 1: very first time and taught to him as well, and

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Speaker 1: asked him a few technical questions on the chal the

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Speaker 1: physical challenges of nuclear fusion in general, and why it's

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Speaker 1: been so hard to get going anywhere.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so they're picking up. They're basically continuing this. They've

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Speaker 4: got one of the world's top experts in levitating dipoles

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Speaker 4: on the team now, so that's a great advantage. They're

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Speaker 4: off and away. So this one is is junior. This

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Speaker 4: is Junior the prototype they've got there. The next generation

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Speaker 4: machine will be Tahi. Yes, So what's the actual gap

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Speaker 4: between what they just did and which we just observed,

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Speaker 4: and what Tahi will be able to do.

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Speaker 1: Tari is going to be bigger, and instead of using

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Speaker 1: helium to generate their high temperature plasma, they're going to

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Speaker 1: use isotopes of hydrogen. So the intention, as I understand it,

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Speaker 1: is to do some actual fusion. And what do we

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Speaker 1: mean by fusion. It is basically bashing the nuclei of

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Speaker 1: hydrogen atoms together so they fuse. And it's very hard

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Speaker 1: to do because there's a very strong repulsion force with

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Speaker 1: atom with atoms such as hydrogen. But if you bash

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Speaker 1: them together hard enough, you overcome that and then the

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Speaker 1: thing or the strong nuclear force comes and that's what

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Speaker 1: binds protons and an atom together. And what you do

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Speaker 1: is you creator, You create helium and those two those

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Speaker 1: times will stay together. The catch is that that's what

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Speaker 1: happens in the sun. You've got two hydrogen atoms, one

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Speaker 1: proton and one electronic. We're putting it and eventually, over

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Speaker 1: millions and millions and millions of years, two random atoms

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Speaker 1: will crash together. Yeah, you've got to wait a long

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Speaker 1: time sometimes and it won't work on Earth, but partly

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Speaker 1: because it's just too slow. But so what you need

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Speaker 1: is a special type two special types of hydrogen atom

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Speaker 1: called juterium and tritium. Deuterium has a neutron and a proton,

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Speaker 1: and tritium, which is very rare and you've actually got

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Speaker 1: to make it yourself in the reactor has two neutrons

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Speaker 1: and somehow that that is how that is the only

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Speaker 1: way this is going to work on Earth for any

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Speaker 1: any project that you can think of.

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Speaker 4: And I think one of the other advantages over the

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Speaker 4: tokeomacs is that juterium tritium fuel cycle that the tokeamacs

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Speaker 4: use what open store if you'suing, is going to be

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Speaker 4: a lot easier to produce that.

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Speaker 1: That's what I understand, and it's also been suggested to

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Speaker 1: me that they wouldn't need so much tritium as other

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Speaker 1: other processes. That holds true, then that's another advantage that

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Speaker 1: they'll have. But they will need some tritium and we'll

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Speaker 1: have to make it themselves.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so you've got junior, then you've got tahi, and

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Speaker 4: there'll be another one after that ma.

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Speaker 1: That as I understand, it will be more fusion on

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Speaker 1: a much larger scale, approaching commercial scale, and that is

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Speaker 1: down for According to one website, I saw was it

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Speaker 1: would be later this decade.

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Speaker 4: Talking to twenty twenty is to have basically a commercial

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Speaker 4: prototype generating a pre commissusion, perhaps a pre commercial pre

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Speaker 4: commercial prototype. Tahi, when I asked about that on a

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Speaker 4: previous visit this year, Open to Star told me that

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Speaker 4: if they could buy the premises and they got thirty

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Speaker 4: five billion dollar loan towards that they could be in

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Speaker 4: there and in there in a year if they have

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Speaker 4: to build it.

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Speaker 1: Though it's still only eighteen months.

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Speaker 2: And they have that.

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Speaker 4: I mean, we saw Shane Jones there talking about and

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Speaker 4: admitting this is a risky prospect. Yes, but the holy

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Speaker 4: grail is perpetual clean energy production. What they could do

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Speaker 4: for New Zealand, let alone the intellectual property that this

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Speaker 4: company could sell to the world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's two parts of that, the intellectual property, the

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Speaker 1: export opportunity beyond dairy and trees, and also our own

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Speaker 1: power generation. And that that's something that future governments would

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Speaker 1: have to grapple with as a time came. But I

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Speaker 1: do understand that Rachi once told me that he went

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Speaker 1: to see Transpound said well, we're not really looking at

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Speaker 1: putting any these things to New Zealand. You know, they said, oh, no,

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Speaker 1: we want one.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And we were talking to someone there from Fonterra

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Speaker 4: and thinking, I said.

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Speaker 1: Why are you here? He said, oh, we're really interested

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Speaker 1: in this sort of thing. I said, Oh, I guess what.

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Speaker 1: You could use them to make milk powder exactly.

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Speaker 4: Instead of all that process heat coming from gas or coal,

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Speaker 4: if you had one of these reactors, they could draw

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Speaker 4: on perpetual clean energy to dry milk powder.

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Speaker 1: That's right. You would probably build one next door to

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Speaker 1: have the next side by side. You wouldn't necessarily have

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Speaker 1: it be yourself, but you would have a contract to

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Speaker 1: that's right, to supply this electricity.

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Speaker 4: Because we were trying to find out last night what

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Speaker 4: sort of output in terms of energy production electricity production

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Speaker 4: you'd get from. This was a wide range potentially given

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Speaker 4: to us, that's right.

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Speaker 1: It was really hard to put them down on how

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Speaker 1: much what the output would be. But Thomas did suggest

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Speaker 1: Heartly power station, which these days has a maximum output

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Speaker 1: of about one thy two hundred megawatts, So that's as

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Speaker 1: big as that, but potentially as big as that, but

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Speaker 1: potentially quite a bit smaller, and small could be good too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And of course it will become evident how much

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Speaker 4: it costs to bill one of these, But it won't

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Speaker 4: be cheap.

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Speaker 1: It won't be cheap. He threw out a billion dollars

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Speaker 1: a presum a minute, New Zealand billion dollars to build

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Speaker 1: one just just because somebody I want one, and let's

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Speaker 1: build one.

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Speaker 4: But if you think over the lifespan off, say a

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Speaker 4: wind farm that has forty turbines, Yes, and how much

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Speaker 4: it costs to build that and consent it over a

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Speaker 4: large area maintain all of those turbines. Yes, it seems

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Speaker 4: like quite a cost effective way to do it.

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Speaker 1: Could be, It could be. I asked how long would

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Speaker 1: one last? He reckons A lifetime would be twenty years,

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Speaker 1: which isn't too bad. Could be better. The big problem

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Speaker 1: This comes back to the big problem. One of the

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Speaker 1: big problems with nuclear fusion. One we've talked about is tritium,

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Speaker 1: and you've got to make it yourself, and that can

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Speaker 1: be tricky. And Open Star, as I said, are hoping

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Speaker 1: that's not going to be a big show stopper for them.

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Speaker 1: They're pretty confident. That's the thing I've struck a bit.

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Speaker 1: The strike's about open Start that are pretty pretty they're

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Speaker 1: going to do what they want to do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But the other thing is what's called the neutron problem. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when I mentioned that to do fusion on Earth you

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Speaker 1: need hydrogen deuterium and hydrogen tritium, which have neutrons in them.

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Speaker 1: They fly out into the out of the chamber. Now

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Speaker 1: the way open Star and others will use those, the

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Speaker 1: actual neutrons will be trapped in the blanket generate heat

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Speaker 1: and that will be used to heat water for steam turbines.

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Speaker 1: So that's the funny thing about all this high tech stuff.

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Speaker 1: You still just start boiling water with it. But the

399
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Speaker 1: trouble is those neutrons damage the structure of the power

400
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Speaker 1: station over time and eventually and it becomes somewhat radioactive.

401
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Speaker 1: I don't I don't think it's very radio but it's

402
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Speaker 1: enough to be a problem in the long run. And

403
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Speaker 1: what what have been told about Openstar is because of

404
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Speaker 1: their design, most of the power plant will not be

405
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Speaker 1: bathed in neutrons to the same degree and it should last.

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Speaker 1: They shouldn't need to change parts for the life of

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Speaker 1: the twenty year life of the power station. One exception,

408
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Speaker 1: and that is the actual levitating dipod itself. They'll need

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Speaker 1: to change it out every year, right.

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Speaker 2: That will that will degrade because of the radiation too.

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Speaker 1: It's just in the middle of it. It's going to

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Speaker 1: be bombarded with neutrons and it will have to be

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Speaker 1: changed out and that's a two week downs time per year.

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Speaker 1: The way they see it's reasonable. It's pretty reasonable.

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Speaker 4: The safety story is legitimate, isn't it. This is not

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Speaker 4: nuclear fission. It's a very different thing where radioactivity decayed

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Speaker 4: for a long time.

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Speaker 1: This is a thing, as Open Sales have said, fission,

419
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Speaker 1: and the fission is basically uranium and other stuff occasionally

420
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Speaker 1: putting these big heavy atoms. It's very hard to stop,

421
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Speaker 1: and you've got these control rods to make sure it

422
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Speaker 1: doesn't run away as it. Fusion is hard to start.

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Speaker 1: We know that because we're just struggling to get it

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Speaker 1: going for years. But even if we do get it

425
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Speaker 1: going as a commercial viable technology, as soon as you

426
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Speaker 1: shut the fuels going in there, it stops. There's no

427
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Speaker 1: such thing as a runaway reaction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's good. You know, it's good.

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Speaker 4: And that's why I think there hasn't been a backlash

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Speaker 4: politically or publicly about this here because people sort of

431
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Speaker 4: get it that it's not what they campaigned against in

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Speaker 4: the ninety eighties.

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Speaker 1: That's what I suspect. Of course, it is still flying

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Speaker 1: under a lot of people's radar. When I've talked to

435
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Speaker 1: some people, Oh, I don't know anything about that or

436
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Speaker 1: what's fusion or.

437
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 4: I think there will be towards the end of this decade,

438
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Speaker 4: if it's still aiming towards commercialization, that's when we will

439
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 4: see probably a little bit of picketing going on.

440
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,360
Speaker 1: Possibly that'll be interesting. I don't know if it'll gain

441
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: a little traction because I think you've got the talking

442
00:24:51,640 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: points say, listen, guys, it is genuinely safe. It's fairly safe.

443
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 4: We talked about they are incredibly confident. This is a

444
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 4: relatively young team. Some wise heads there from the likes

445
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 4: of MIT, but the confidence is there.

446
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 2: A lot of you.

447
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 4: Know, top scientists in that in the room who were

448
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 4: very impressed. But the reality is they're one of about

449
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 4: fifty fusion startups. About ten billion dollars has been US

450
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 4: has been injected into these companies. You've got Helium Energy,

451
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 4: which has just broken ground on what it's calling it's

452
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 4: for the world's first commercial fusion power plant in Washington State,

453
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,360
Speaker 4: targeting electricity. By twenty twenty eight, you've got Commonwealth Fusion

454
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 4: Systems has had a lot of money put into it.

455
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 2: It's open Star series. A funding round was ten.

456
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 4: Million dollars and it hasn't really raised anymore since then

457
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:54,959
Speaker 4: large amounts of money.

458
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: No, it has not. It's only the thirty five million.

459
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: That's more for the premises, I think than the actual

460
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: what's inside that will need private investment.

461
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 4: Yes, that's alone from the government, so that will be

462
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 4: paid back over time. So presumably they will have a

463
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 4: new funding round which will have to be a significant

464
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 4: amount of money.

465
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: It'll have to be a lot more than what they

466
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: raised last time. But having said that, they have done

467
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: what they set out to do. They've passed a very

468
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: important milestone last night, and that is what venture capitalists

469
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: want to see in any startup as the achievement of milestones.

470
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: And they did that and they only got They only

471
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: raised ten million dollars in their fundraise. So that's that's

472
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: something in their favorite away. Now. I asked Thomas Berry

473
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: at open Star, why now, and he in VERSI He

474
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: started talking more generally about why all the startups think

475
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: they can do it, not just open Star. The industry

476
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 1: does see fusion is happening now, and as you said,

477
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 1: there's loads of others, and a lot of that's to

478
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: do with improvements and material science. New high tempered superconductors

479
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: such as open Star is using and they're using i

480
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 1: P that's developed by the old Department of Scientificate and

481
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 1: Industrial Research and Victory University, so they're in pole position

482
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: with that. The magnets are far more powerful and it's

483
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 1: enabled them to a scale a smaller scale. That's that

484
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 1: startups like open Star can actually do rather than having

485
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 1: all these massive European Union funded like the big.

486
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 4: Project in France, the massive Fusion project, which is behind

487
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 4: schedule and over budget. Yes, so that's the advantage which

488
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 4: some of these other startups obviously share.

489
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,959
Speaker 1: That's right, he did, and Thomas did include the other

490
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: startup in that in that reasoning. But what it says

491
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: is that that means we can do it for low

492
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: billions of dollars compared compared to the far more expensive

493
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 1: things like yeah, hundreds of billions of dollars. Yeah, okay,

494
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: so that's that's that's the general startup scene. But he

495
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: said open State has another advantage, and that's back to

496
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 1: it's design that we talked about, the inside out design,

497
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: and it's very modular. He said, we can test them,

498
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 1: break them, fix them, deny, design a new one, then

499
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: start again, test and break them, fix them, design a

500
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: new one in a very short space of time. And

501
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: they're still going to be using Junior even when they

502
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: move to Tahi to do some basic research. And they're

503
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: still working on different experiments to optimize the shape of

504
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 1: that levitating dipole. And that's that's that's why they think

505
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: they can do it.

506
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 4: Is it your expectation that this new facility they've got

507
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 4: the green light for will be in the Wellington region.

508
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: I should think so, because you've got all these scientists

509
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: who who live and work in Wellington or in the

510
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: Hut Valley. You've got the support from Robinson's research in

511
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: the Hut Valley. I hardly think they're going to go

512
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: too far from Wellington, and there aren't too many large

513
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: centers beyond here, so I couldn't. I don't think they'll

514
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: go to Auckland, and I hope I don't have to

515
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: eat by words.

516
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 2: Or that exactly. Yeah, it's sort of the narrative of

517
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 2: everything going to Auckland. We're going out of Wellington anyway,

518
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: It isn't a great one.

519
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: So that's certainly as a Wellingtonian would I would certainly

520
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: hope they stay here, but I also expect they will.

521
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: They'll find somewhere in the Greater Wellington region. It might

522
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: not be as close to here because we can just

523
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: look out over them the roy Gorge. Yeah, it's a short.

524
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 4: I mean, are we facing a scenario where, if we

525
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 4: take it at face value, it looks like they have

526
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 4: a simpler, more efficient design. Yes, But could it be

527
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 4: that we have a sort of a beta max VHS

528
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 4: race where because the momentum of money and resource and

529
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 4: attention is going into tokamac designs that by sheer brute force,

530
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 4: they might get their first.

531
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: They might get their first. I would say if open

532
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: stars design works, it works, and if you can build

533
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: a cow station and get kind tracks to build them,

534
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: then it's possible. That's all you need. Specifically, if that

535
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,239
Speaker 1: neutron problem is less of a problem for them than

536
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: for others, because one of those big tacomac things, you've

537
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: got to keep stripped them down and going.

538
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 2: To maintain all of those magnets around the outside of

539
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: the chamber.

540
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: Having said that the scientists I talked to from MIT

541
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: and is doing the tacomac out there. They've got a

542
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: more model design where they can take parts in and out.

543
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: So that's how they said they will deal with the

544
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: neutron problem. Yeah.

545
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 4: So, and even if they don't actually achieve a commercial

546
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 4: nuclear fusion reactor, there's got to be benefits of going

547
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 4: on this journey, right. There's the intellectual properties high temperature

548
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 4: superconducting stuff. There's also that I guess, the expertise which

549
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 4: really builds a lot more critical mass around Robinson, which

550
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 4: did receive seventy million dollars last year.

551
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: They they received seventy one million dollars and that was

552
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: from the that was from the science budget. And as

553
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: towards it won't just be for Robertsons Wards developing a

554
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 1: advanced technology platform, and it's will be part of the

555
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: Advanced Technology Institute that we have yet to see take shape,

556
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: but we should see some outline of that fairly soon.

557
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 4: They've ticked the boxes that they promised, They've delivered on

558
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 4: what they set out to do to date. Are you

559
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 4: confident that they can raise the money now and will

560
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 4: this event really help them raise that money?

561
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: It will at least help now. One of the one

562
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: of the investors there last night was Outset Ventures. They

563
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: were at Future House in Parnell. Outset says that open

564
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: Star has built the strongest fusion team in the Southern

565
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: hemisphere and is attracting global attentions. That's fairly significant, and

566
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: it's worth it's worth pointing out that what they say

567
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: is that they bring up that old chestnut, which I've

568
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 1: actually agreed with most of the time. Usion is always

569
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: twenty years again, and actually most people's thirty or forty

570
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: bus throwing that quote, and they say every fusion investor

571
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: is confronted by the sentence, and they say, yeah, that's

572
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: historically true. They also say it's increasingly lazy analysis, that's

573
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: what Outset says. And superconductors have improved, the simulation tools

574
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: have improved, private capital has created speed and accountability that

575
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: government programs alone didn't have. And so they say it's

576
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: still too early to do declared victory, but the velocity

577
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: of our open Stars so far gives.

578
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 4: Us confidence and they've convinced the government of that confidence

579
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 4: as well.

580
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: So yeah, they you know, Shane Jones is not one

581
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: to shy away from saying that we support her. He

582
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: did point out the entire cabinet and even a party,

583
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: even the Act Party, we're behind it. So it's not

584
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: just Shane Jones, a little hobby horse, yeah, being pushed

585
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: out there with thirty five million dollars. The other thing

586
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: about the thirty five million dollars over so said, that's

587
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: really important to give investors confidence that they've got some

588
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: backing from government because they will need overseas investors. We

589
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: have fundus from our own definitely.

590
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 2: So it's looking good. They're looking good for a Series

591
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 2: B raised.

592
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 4: It's a matter of how much, whether it's going to

593
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 4: be one hundred million, surely close to close to.

594
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: And at least in the Tensen. So at this stage

595
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: we really just have to wait and see what happens next.

596
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: They need they need to get started on the new

597
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: facility and they need to do some fundraising.

598
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 2: Have they got the people or are a whole bunch

599
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 2: of new people required to make this happen.

600
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, they'll be hiring. They'll be hiring quite a few

601
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: more than they've got now.

602
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, And in terms of our strategy, obviously three five

603
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 4: million it's alone. It will have to be repaid, but

604
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 4: it sits alongside sixty million for super critical geothermal reto

605
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 4: going really deep in the volcanic zone in Talpo to

606
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,240
Speaker 4: try and get the super hot liquid for geothermal energy.

607
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 4: The twenty eight million four regional solo that came out

608
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,359
Speaker 4: of the same fund. So, yeah, what do you make

609
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 4: of this sort of strategy. It's not coming out of

610
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 4: the research part. It's actually coming out of regional development funding.

611
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and technically Wellington's not eligible for it. But as

612
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: I talked to the personal charge of that last night,

613
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: I said, well it was approved. Yeah, so it's been approved, right,

614
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: circumstances allowed, governments can do what they want. It says, yes,

615
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: it's all go. So as far as a strategy goes

616
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 1: the Christopher Luxon talked said said yesterday they really really

617
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: believe in, you know, funding funding science that has effect.

618
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 1: They re believe in the commercialization of science. There has

619
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: been some criticism, well don't forget the blue the blue

620
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: sky stuff you need under underneath that. I did ask

621
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 1: that the Science Minister Shane Ratty about that and he

622
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,800
Speaker 1: insisted that they wouldn't do that. But the trouble is

623
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,320
Speaker 1: our science funding is still very low compared to the

624
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: oecd average and rarely probably need more not just from

625
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: the government but also from the private sector, and that

626
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: has that that really should should come up. So the

627
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: government is looking for ideas that will that will generate

628
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: economic growth and export income. Yeah, and also solve our

629
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 1: energy problems.

630
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 4: Well that's a big pressing one at the moment, and

631
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 4: none of these solutions are immediate, but it definitely does

632
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 4: show that they're they're looking for real innovation and this

633
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 4: one is the real moonshot of all of those.

634
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: It is a moonshot. Personally, I'll be delighted if they

635
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: make it, but I do remain if it convinced because

636
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 1: it's just so such a it's it is a bit

637
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 1: of an outlier in terms of Spies project. Yeah.

638
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 2: Well, hey, look, thanks for your analysis. Greg.

639
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,479
Speaker 4: Felt like something special being there, so it was great

640
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 4: to see the plasma firing. But we're clearly part of

641
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 4: the way through a long journey. But thanks so much

642
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 4: for breaking it down for us and for coming on.

643
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 2: A business of deck.

644
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: Thanks paper.

645
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 4: That was Business Deest journalist Greg Herrel breaking down what

646
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 4: we witnessed at Open Stars demonstration here in Wellington last week.

647
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 4: It really was something special to see that magnet floating

648
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 4: silently into chamber and the plasma fire up on screen.

649
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 2: It looked really cool.

650
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 4: I'll put a link to the full YouTube video open

651
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 4: Star posted in the show notes so you can have

652
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 4: a look for yourself. I mean, fusion is still one

653
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 4: of the hardest challenges humanity has ever taken on. As

654
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 4: Darren Garnier, Open Star's chief science officer, who came all

655
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 4: the way from MIT to continue as work put it,

656
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 4: it's brave and it's hard. What's exciting is that a

657
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Speaker 4: New Zealand team building on homegrown IP from the Robinson

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Speaker 4: Research Institute at Victoria University, is genuinely in this race

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Speaker 4: and with a design that might just have some real advantages.

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Speaker 4: The next chapter, which I suspect is coming very soon,

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Speaker 4: is raising serious money for a series B fundraising round

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Speaker 4: building that new facility, getting TAHI up and running, and

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Speaker 4: we'll be watching that very closely. If you enjoyed this episode,

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Speaker 4: make sure you subscribe to the Business of Tech wherever

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Speaker 4: you get your podcasts, and feel free to share it

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Speaker 4: with anyone who's interested in New Zealand's deep tech future.

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Speaker 2: I'm Peter Griffin. Thanks for listening. I'll catch you next week,