WEBVTT - What is the Two by Twos, the secretive sect linked to a National MP? 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:05.280 CHIELDA. 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:08.360 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:11.559 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:17.840 New Zealand Police are assisting. 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:21.920 The FBI in an investigation into a secretive religious group 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:26.720 which has operations worldwide. It's a fringe Christian sect that 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:30.680 has no official name, but it's commonly known as the 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:33.240 two x Two's, the Truth, the. 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:36.320 Way and the Church with No Name. 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:41.440 The inquiries follow a BBC investigation last year into allegations 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:45.200 of child sexual abuse spanning decades within the church, which 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:49.240 is believed to have up to one hundred thousand members worldwide. 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:53.120 And in a bizarre twist, it's been revealed National Party 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.880 MP Hamish Campbell is a high ranking member of the group. 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:00.840 Today on the front page Herald Senior Crime Report, Annalysk 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:03.800 is with us. She's been delving into what exactly the 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:10.959 group is. First off, Anna, can you tell me what 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:13.720 the two x Two's Group actually is. 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:18.639 The group is a church that was started in the 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:22.640 late eighteen hundreds. In eighteen ninety seven by a Scottish 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:25.520 missionary who had become pretty disillusioned with the church. He 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:27.920 was worth and he wanted to sort of return to 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:32.360 a really ancient rendition of the Bible teachings. He wanted 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:36.160 to go back to, you know, that simple life of poverty, homelessness, 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:40.639 itinerant preaching and just spreading the word to their own people. 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:43.959 He was against other churches, so he sort of isolated 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:46.680 what he was doing to himself and it grew from there. 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:49.520 The church doesn't have a name and it doesn't have buildings. 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:51.960 He was very opposed to both of those things because 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:53.960 he believes that you know, you don't need a building 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:58.080 to be saved, and you don't need to have a name, 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:01.800 just it's that really pure form of worship, I guess 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:03.040 and service. 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:05.800 So what do they actually believe, because I know that 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:08.320 you mentioned no buildings, But they also don't really have 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:12.280 any written doctrine or any written rules or regulations, right, they. 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:15.200 Don't have any written sort of rules or regulations. There's 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:18.400 a lot published about what they do and don't believe. Effectively, 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:22.440 they're just fundamentalist Christians who firstly, they believe that if 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:24.560 you are not a member of their number, you will 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:27.560 not get into heaven and you it will be decided 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:29.280 when you die whether you go to heaven or how 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:32.000 sort of that decision is made on the service you've 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:34.560 done during your life, the work you've done for the God. 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:39.280 They're pretty into this idea of you know, their preachers 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:41.840 are sort of itinerant. They move from house to house, 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:45.840 they get looked after by the body of the church 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:48.160 I guess, who are known as friends, and they get 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:54.040 everything paid for. And it's just that really basic community 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:58.280 of worshipers that just keep it really simple, I guess 0:02:58.360 --> 0:02:59.400 is what they're trying to do. 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:02.359 Right from and what I've read is that they hold 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:06.480 meetings in their houses what midweek and on Sundays or something. 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:11.440 Yeah, the main meeting is on a Sunday morning, and 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.519 that's called house church now that's held at the home 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:18.680 of an elder to one of the men in the group. 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:22.600 On Wednesdays and Sunday nights, there is a gospel meeting 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:25.800 and that's when the preachers of the field or the 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:29.000 location therein run are sort of a prayer meeting and 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:31.079 everyone goes along and listens to them. And that can 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.480 often be in a church hall. Now when they are traveling, 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:36.839 so if they're off at a conference or if they're 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:40.080 at a convention or whatever, various forms of words they 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:43.240 use if these preachers are away, then other elders will 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:46.680 host prayer meetings in their home, which is what of 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:50.560 course the national MP, Hamish Campbell has confirmed that he 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:52.800 has done over the years. 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:55.160 Right, We'll get to Hamish Campbell obviously in a minute. 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:57.720 But I guess why are we hearing about this group 0:03:57.800 --> 0:03:59.720 all of a sudden, Well, the real. 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:01.920 Reason hearing about this group all of a sudden is 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:05.720 they are under investigation by the FBI. Allegations were made 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:10.200 in the States, initially about historic sexual abuse, and the 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:13.360 FBI started looking into this. They asked for survivors to 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:16.440 come forward and they've got a global response. So that 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:18.760 was February last year. They put the word out asking 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:21.479 for any victims of the two BO two group to 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:24.680 contact them. Now, in Fibruary this year, the New Zealand 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:28.000 Police started reaching out two people who had contacted the FBI. 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:31.039 There is a New Zealand Police investigation on going, so 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.480 you know, yes, we have an MP involved in this group. 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:37.400 Separate issue. This group is in the media and in 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.120 the news at the moment because there are two pretty 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:45.320 important investigations ongoing about the abuse and including of children 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:46.960 within their church. 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:51.680 Widespread allegations of child sex abuse. 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:55.600 It is rampant and it's systemic to date. 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:58.599 A private investigator who runs a hotline for alleged victims 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:01.520 tells us she's received allergi against nine hundred and eighty 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:05.080 different perpetrators stemming back to the sixties. In February, the 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:07.880 FBI announced it was investigating the allegations. 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:10.560 A lot of these perpetrators were just moved around. The 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:14.479 gas lighting and the guilt is what has created such 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:18.039 a perfect breeding ground for the pedophilia that goes on. 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:23.240 Yeah, I've seen some reports from around the world about 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.720 this group. The BBC reported the sect apparently coerced young 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:29.279 mothers to give up their babies, with hundreds of adoptions 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:33.120 are potentially happening between the nineteen fifties and nineteen nineties 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:37.000 in the UK, and meanwhile in Australia, survivors are fighting 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:40.680 for access to a national Redress Scheme, a compensation system 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:44.320 for child sex abuse survivors. Have you heard anything about 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:46.320 the former members in New Zealand. 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:50.039 Look, I've spoken to a lot of people that were 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:53.320 members of the church. Some of them have been abused 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:58.120 by people that older men and women. Some of them 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:00.120 know of others that have been abused. Some of them 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.320 know of the users. Police are looking into it and 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:07.120 we're hoping to hear very soon whether there'll be charges 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:10.440 or where that investigation goes. I think it's important to 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:14.039 say that in any religious group there are allegations of 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:16.919 this sort of thing happening, but this is really timely 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:19.720 at the moment, just because the FBI are looking into it. 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:22.279 The police are starting to make moves here, and I 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:26.200 think we will see very very soon what's going to 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:27.800 come out of that. You know, there'll be a lot 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:31.920 of people out there that may have something, have had 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:34.000 something happen to them, that haven't gone to police or 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:36.359 won't go to police. So there's always stories that you 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:38.839 hear from people in these groups about things that happen. 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:41.800 But it will, as I said, be very interesting to 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:44.600 see what comes out of this police investigation. 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:47.320 It's pretty hard to get any kind of numbers out 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:50.479 of this group. I've seen some numbers one hundred thousand 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:54.159 members believed worldwide. Do we have any idea how large 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:56.200 the presence is in New Zealand. 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.599 It's it's amatter. There's a couple of thousand around New 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:03.960 Zealand and there's quite a presence in christ Church. We've 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:08.239 actually been sent some information about you know, the number 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.240 of workers, which is the preachers. We know, you know, 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:14.520 we witnessed a meeting that had fifty or so people 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:16.960 turning up just to the Wednesday night meeting. And that's 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:19.760 just a one part of christ Church. So I think 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:23.120 it is it's I mean, it's never going to be 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:25.240 as big as the Catholic Church, of the Anglican Church, 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:28.720 et cetera, but it's a significant number for you know, 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:32.000 for being a small sort of insular sect. 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:43.360 So you mentioned Hamish Campbell. 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:46.040 He's a national MP and he had some kind of 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:49.640 association with the group, but it turns out he actually. 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:51.600 Downplayed his involvement in the beginning. 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:56.320 Hey yeah, Look, we've had three versions from Hamish about 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:57.560 his connection. 0:07:57.720 --> 0:07:57.960 You know. 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:00.400 The first he told media that he he had an 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:03.440 association was the word he used to the group. He 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:06.960 didn't disclose anything further. The second time he used the 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:10.480 word connection, he said the connection was through his family. Again, 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:13.880 that's where he stopped. He had, you know, confirmed that 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:16.960 he was in fact a member of the church and 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:20.560 that he had hosted meetings, which a lot of ex 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:23.760 members have told me that they consider him an elder. 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.120 He's not confirmed any sort of label or ranking, but 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:29.560 a lot of people are claiming that he is an elder, 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:32.000 that he has hosted meetings, and that he and his 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:35.199 family are deeply embedded. As the words they've used in 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:40.000 this church, they're quite influential. So it's for us we've 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:42.600 just been asking this question. You know, what is your role? 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:45.880 You know, yes, there's a family connection because he you 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:48.160 are born into this church, his parents are in this church. 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:51.800 It's intergenerational. But you know, it didn't for me, it 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:54.440 didn't seem like a hard question. What is your role 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:56.479 in this church? Do your host meetings? 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:02.600 Love? I have an association through my family. I've also 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:05.480 been a scientist for the last few years over quite 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:08.920 a broad broad worldview. So it's actually liberal. 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:11.480 So how good you explain that organization? 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:15.079 Well, look, I think it's a non denominational Christian group 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:19.079 trying to love the best way possible. 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:23.160 Have you raised the Hamish Campbell's association with the church 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:23.480 with them? 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:24.920 No, I haven't. 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:29.520 You know, as you well know, we're proud multicultural country. 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:31.960 People are free to celebrate their faces as they wish 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:33.280 from lots of different backgrounds. 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:37.439 What else did he say. 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:39.680 I mean, you would have asked him about the child 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:41.760 sex abuse allegations as well. 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:44.760 Look, he's referred that to police. At this point, he 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:47.640 claims he has no personal knowledge of anyone involved, that 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:51.000 he doesn't know of any of these historic abuse allegations. 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:54.600 He hasn't clarified or gone any further on either of 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.839 those points, but he has said that the right place 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:01.280 for this to be investigated is through the police, and 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:03.720 like all of us, you know, and he encourages people 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:05.920 to go to police if they've got an experience they're 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.959 worried about or want to report. So, I mean, in 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:12.120 a small group, a lot of people know a lot 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.160 of people. But at this point, Hamish Campbell is saying 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:18.400 he has no personal knowledge of anyone involved in the abuse, 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:20.960 and he's not aware of the specific allegations. So obviously 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:23.600 we will keep going back to him if and we 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:27.480 needed as this investigation continues, as we will with the 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:31.480 church's leadership. You know, Hamish, whatever label he wants to use, 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:35.240 is considered an elder by some people. That's the claims 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.640 they're making. He hasn't used any wording around that, but 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.400 he's not a church leader he's not you know, the 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:44.720 overseer or the twice and he's not a preacher. The 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:47.440 questions will be put to those people as well, obviously 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:49.120 at an appropriate time. 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:51.720 So tell me a little bit about Douglas Martin. 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.800 Doug Martin was an assistant principle here in Lincoln, which 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:59.280 is just outside of christ Church, respected, you know, trusted 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:04.480 member of the community. In twenty thirteen, he admitted that 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:08.559 he had filmed up the skirts of a lot of 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:12.320 young women and girls, unsuspecting victims, and he was sentenced 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:14.600 to home detention. The court heard at the time that 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.280 he was a church elder, but nothing more was said. 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:20.920 It now has emerged that he was an elder in 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:24.720 the Turbots and I have confirmed that he helped meetings 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:27.280 in his home, that his family. He's had a lot 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:30.040 of family members in the church. And again, like an 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:33.760 influential sort of embedded family, he was asked to or 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.680 he was stopped from holding these meetings, I think shortly 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:39.200 before he was convicted, and it's been suggested he's no 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.240 longer an active member in the church. We went to 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:46.800 see him and he wouldn't confirm anything. He didn't deny anything, 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:49.120 but he didn't confirm anything and said he had no 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:51.440 comment to make, and a lot of people have asked, 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:54.120 you know, why bring that up again, Well, it's if 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:56.120 we'd known about it at the time, it would have 0:11:56.160 --> 0:12:00.520 been reported. It's not the fact that this religion small 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:03.760 and unusual and you know, slightly strange in some people's opinion. 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:06.600 It's not about what the members worship and what their 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:10.240 beliefs are. It's about who was holding positions of authority 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:13.360 and power and trust in this group. Who they are 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:15.640 and what they're doing, you know, whether they are a 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:18.920 convicted sex offender or whether they are you know, there's 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:22.400 various other occupations that whold leadership in this group, and 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:23.880 you know, if they need to be held account, they 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:27.120 will be. So for anyone that thinks that we're picking 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:29.880 on a particular church or a particular religion, it's not 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:32.440 about that. It's you know, making sure that these people 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:35.640 in leadership roles are held to account where they need 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:35.920 to be. 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.400 So where to from here? In it from here? 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:42.960 We will watch this police investigation with interest, you know, 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:47.440 like any investigation into you know, we've seen investigations at 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:50.360 Gloria Vale and we've seen investigations within the Catholic Church 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:54.680 and you know, other religious groups. It's we'll watch it 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.040 mostly what happens if if people are charged, we follow 0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:59.880 that through the courts. At the moment, I'm speaking to 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:03.280 lot of ex members about their experiences, and I think, 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:06.120 you know, it's important to know why they're speaking out. 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:09.240 They want people to know what happens in this church. 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:12.760 They want people to know why they left. They want 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:16.040 this church to do better for various reasons, and that's 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:18.560 why they're sort of speaking at the moment, you know. 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.439 Going forward, I think there will be questions that need 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:23.520 to be asked of the church about how it's handled 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:26.679 things over the years and how it will protect its 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:29.400 people going forward. I think the most important thing though, is, 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.160 you know, just watching this police investigation, seeing what comes 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:35.559 of it, you know, holding people to account and that jurisdiction, 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:38.760 but also making sure that anyone that remains with the church, 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:41.520 particularly young people, will be protected in future, and that 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:45.280 you know, ultimately people are educated about what this group are, 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:48.520 what they stand for, and what they're doing in the community. 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:50.080 Thanks for joining us, Anna, Thank you. 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:56.640 That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 0:13:56.679 --> 0:14:00.640 can read more about today's stories and extensive news at 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:05.040 enzedherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is produced 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:08.520 by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also a 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:09.640 sound engineer. 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:11.559 I'm Chelsea Daniels. 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:15.280 Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:19.120 get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:20.440 behind the headlines.