Speaker 1: CHIELDA.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 1: New Zealand Police are assisting.
Speaker 2: The FBI in an investigation into a secretive religious group
Speaker 2: which has operations worldwide. It's a fringe Christian sect that
Speaker 2: has no official name, but it's commonly known as the
Speaker 2: two x Two's, the Truth, the.
Speaker 1: Way and the Church with No Name.
Speaker 2: The inquiries follow a BBC investigation last year into allegations
Speaker 2: of child sexual abuse spanning decades within the church, which
Speaker 2: is believed to have up to one hundred thousand members worldwide.
Speaker 2: And in a bizarre twist, it's been revealed National Party
Speaker 2: MP Hamish Campbell is a high ranking member of the group.
Speaker 2: Today on the front page Herald Senior Crime Report, Annalysk
Speaker 2: is with us. She's been delving into what exactly the
Speaker 2: group is. First off, Anna, can you tell me what
Speaker 2: the two x Two's Group actually is.
Speaker 3: The group is a church that was started in the
Speaker 3: late eighteen hundreds. In eighteen ninety seven by a Scottish
Speaker 3: missionary who had become pretty disillusioned with the church. He
Speaker 3: was worth and he wanted to sort of return to
Speaker 3: a really ancient rendition of the Bible teachings. He wanted
Speaker 3: to go back to, you know, that simple life of poverty, homelessness,
Speaker 3: itinerant preaching and just spreading the word to their own people.
Speaker 3: He was against other churches, so he sort of isolated
Speaker 3: what he was doing to himself and it grew from there.
Speaker 3: The church doesn't have a name and it doesn't have buildings.
Speaker 3: He was very opposed to both of those things because
Speaker 3: he believes that you know, you don't need a building
Speaker 3: to be saved, and you don't need to have a name,
Speaker 3: just it's that really pure form of worship, I guess
Speaker 3: and service.
Speaker 2: So what do they actually believe, because I know that
Speaker 2: you mentioned no buildings, But they also don't really have
Speaker 2: any written doctrine or any written rules or regulations, right, they.
Speaker 3: Don't have any written sort of rules or regulations. There's
Speaker 3: a lot published about what they do and don't believe. Effectively,
Speaker 3: they're just fundamentalist Christians who firstly, they believe that if
Speaker 3: you are not a member of their number, you will
Speaker 3: not get into heaven and you it will be decided
Speaker 3: when you die whether you go to heaven or how
Speaker 3: sort of that decision is made on the service you've
Speaker 3: done during your life, the work you've done for the God.
Speaker 3: They're pretty into this idea of you know, their preachers
Speaker 3: are sort of itinerant. They move from house to house,
Speaker 3: they get looked after by the body of the church
Speaker 3: I guess, who are known as friends, and they get
Speaker 3: everything paid for. And it's just that really basic community
Speaker 3: of worshipers that just keep it really simple, I guess
Speaker 3: is what they're trying to do.
Speaker 2: Right from and what I've read is that they hold
Speaker 2: meetings in their houses what midweek and on Sundays or something.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the main meeting is on a Sunday morning, and
Speaker 3: that's called house church now that's held at the home
Speaker 3: of an elder to one of the men in the group.
Speaker 3: On Wednesdays and Sunday nights, there is a gospel meeting
Speaker 3: and that's when the preachers of the field or the
Speaker 3: location therein run are sort of a prayer meeting and
Speaker 3: everyone goes along and listens to them. And that can
Speaker 3: often be in a church hall. Now when they are traveling,
Speaker 3: so if they're off at a conference or if they're
Speaker 3: at a convention or whatever, various forms of words they
Speaker 3: use if these preachers are away, then other elders will
Speaker 3: host prayer meetings in their home, which is what of
Speaker 3: course the national MP, Hamish Campbell has confirmed that he
Speaker 3: has done over the years.
Speaker 1: Right, We'll get to Hamish Campbell obviously in a minute.
Speaker 2: But I guess why are we hearing about this group
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, Well, the real.
Speaker 3: Reason hearing about this group all of a sudden is
Speaker 3: they are under investigation by the FBI. Allegations were made
Speaker 3: in the States, initially about historic sexual abuse, and the
Speaker 3: FBI started looking into this. They asked for survivors to
Speaker 3: come forward and they've got a global response. So that
Speaker 3: was February last year. They put the word out asking
Speaker 3: for any victims of the two BO two group to
Speaker 3: contact them. Now, in Fibruary this year, the New Zealand
Speaker 3: Police started reaching out two people who had contacted the FBI.
Speaker 3: There is a New Zealand Police investigation on going, so
Speaker 3: you know, yes, we have an MP involved in this group.
Speaker 3: Separate issue. This group is in the media and in
Speaker 3: the news at the moment because there are two pretty
Speaker 3: important investigations ongoing about the abuse and including of children
Speaker 3: within their church.
Speaker 4: Widespread allegations of child sex abuse.
Speaker 1: It is rampant and it's systemic to date.
Speaker 4: A private investigator who runs a hotline for alleged victims
Speaker 4: tells us she's received allergi against nine hundred and eighty
Speaker 4: different perpetrators stemming back to the sixties. In February, the
Speaker 4: FBI announced it was investigating the allegations.
Speaker 3: A lot of these perpetrators were just moved around. The
Speaker 3: gas lighting and the guilt is what has created such
Speaker 3: a perfect breeding ground for the pedophilia that goes on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen some reports from around the world about
Speaker 2: this group. The BBC reported the sect apparently coerced young
Speaker 2: mothers to give up their babies, with hundreds of adoptions
Speaker 2: are potentially happening between the nineteen fifties and nineteen nineties
Speaker 2: in the UK, and meanwhile in Australia, survivors are fighting
Speaker 2: for access to a national Redress Scheme, a compensation system
Speaker 2: for child sex abuse survivors. Have you heard anything about
Speaker 2: the former members in New Zealand.
Speaker 3: Look, I've spoken to a lot of people that were
Speaker 3: members of the church. Some of them have been abused
Speaker 3: by people that older men and women. Some of them
Speaker 3: know of others that have been abused. Some of them
Speaker 3: know of the users. Police are looking into it and
Speaker 3: we're hoping to hear very soon whether there'll be charges
Speaker 3: or where that investigation goes. I think it's important to
Speaker 3: say that in any religious group there are allegations of
Speaker 3: this sort of thing happening, but this is really timely
Speaker 3: at the moment, just because the FBI are looking into it.
Speaker 3: The police are starting to make moves here, and I
Speaker 3: think we will see very very soon what's going to
Speaker 3: come out of that. You know, there'll be a lot
Speaker 3: of people out there that may have something, have had
Speaker 3: something happen to them, that haven't gone to police or
Speaker 3: won't go to police. So there's always stories that you
Speaker 3: hear from people in these groups about things that happen.
Speaker 3: But it will, as I said, be very interesting to
Speaker 3: see what comes out of this police investigation.
Speaker 2: It's pretty hard to get any kind of numbers out
Speaker 2: of this group. I've seen some numbers one hundred thousand
Speaker 2: members believed worldwide. Do we have any idea how large
Speaker 2: the presence is in New Zealand.
Speaker 3: It's it's amatter. There's a couple of thousand around New
Speaker 3: Zealand and there's quite a presence in christ Church. We've
Speaker 3: actually been sent some information about you know, the number
Speaker 3: of workers, which is the preachers. We know, you know,
Speaker 3: we witnessed a meeting that had fifty or so people
Speaker 3: turning up just to the Wednesday night meeting. And that's
Speaker 3: just a one part of christ Church. So I think
Speaker 3: it is it's I mean, it's never going to be
Speaker 3: as big as the Catholic Church, of the Anglican Church,
Speaker 3: et cetera, but it's a significant number for you know,
Speaker 3: for being a small sort of insular sect.
Speaker 1: So you mentioned Hamish Campbell.
Speaker 2: He's a national MP and he had some kind of
Speaker 2: association with the group, but it turns out he actually.
Speaker 1: Downplayed his involvement in the beginning.
Speaker 3: Hey yeah, Look, we've had three versions from Hamish about
Speaker 3: his connection.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: The first he told media that he he had an
Speaker 3: association was the word he used to the group. He
Speaker 3: didn't disclose anything further. The second time he used the
Speaker 3: word connection, he said the connection was through his family. Again,
Speaker 3: that's where he stopped. He had, you know, confirmed that
Speaker 3: he was in fact a member of the church and
Speaker 3: that he had hosted meetings, which a lot of ex
Speaker 3: members have told me that they consider him an elder.
Speaker 3: He's not confirmed any sort of label or ranking, but
Speaker 3: a lot of people are claiming that he is an elder,
Speaker 3: that he has hosted meetings, and that he and his
Speaker 3: family are deeply embedded. As the words they've used in
Speaker 3: this church, they're quite influential. So it's for us we've
Speaker 3: just been asking this question. You know, what is your role?
Speaker 3: You know, yes, there's a family connection because he you
Speaker 3: are born into this church, his parents are in this church.
Speaker 3: It's intergenerational. But you know, it didn't for me, it
Speaker 3: didn't seem like a hard question. What is your role
Speaker 3: in this church? Do your host meetings?
Speaker 5: Love? I have an association through my family. I've also
Speaker 5: been a scientist for the last few years over quite
Speaker 5: a broad broad worldview. So it's actually liberal.
Speaker 1: So how good you explain that organization?
Speaker 5: Well, look, I think it's a non denominational Christian group
Speaker 5: trying to love the best way possible.
Speaker 3: Have you raised the Hamish Campbell's association with the church
Speaker 3: with them?
Speaker 1: No, I haven't.
Speaker 2: You know, as you well know, we're proud multicultural country.
Speaker 2: People are free to celebrate their faces as they wish
Speaker 2: from lots of different backgrounds.
Speaker 1: What else did he say.
Speaker 2: I mean, you would have asked him about the child
Speaker 2: sex abuse allegations as well.
Speaker 3: Look, he's referred that to police. At this point, he
Speaker 3: claims he has no personal knowledge of anyone involved, that
Speaker 3: he doesn't know of any of these historic abuse allegations.
Speaker 3: He hasn't clarified or gone any further on either of
Speaker 3: those points, but he has said that the right place
Speaker 3: for this to be investigated is through the police, and
Speaker 3: like all of us, you know, and he encourages people
Speaker 3: to go to police if they've got an experience they're
Speaker 3: worried about or want to report. So, I mean, in
Speaker 3: a small group, a lot of people know a lot
Speaker 3: of people. But at this point, Hamish Campbell is saying
Speaker 3: he has no personal knowledge of anyone involved in the abuse,
Speaker 3: and he's not aware of the specific allegations. So obviously
Speaker 3: we will keep going back to him if and we
Speaker 3: needed as this investigation continues, as we will with the
Speaker 3: church's leadership. You know, Hamish, whatever label he wants to use,
Speaker 3: is considered an elder by some people. That's the claims
Speaker 3: they're making. He hasn't used any wording around that, but
Speaker 3: he's not a church leader he's not you know, the
Speaker 3: overseer or the twice and he's not a preacher. The
Speaker 3: questions will be put to those people as well, obviously
Speaker 3: at an appropriate time.
Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about Douglas Martin.
Speaker 3: Doug Martin was an assistant principle here in Lincoln, which
Speaker 3: is just outside of christ Church, respected, you know, trusted
Speaker 3: member of the community. In twenty thirteen, he admitted that
Speaker 3: he had filmed up the skirts of a lot of
Speaker 3: young women and girls, unsuspecting victims, and he was sentenced
Speaker 3: to home detention. The court heard at the time that
Speaker 3: he was a church elder, but nothing more was said.
Speaker 3: It now has emerged that he was an elder in
Speaker 3: the Turbots and I have confirmed that he helped meetings
Speaker 3: in his home, that his family. He's had a lot
Speaker 3: of family members in the church. And again, like an
Speaker 3: influential sort of embedded family, he was asked to or
Speaker 3: he was stopped from holding these meetings, I think shortly
Speaker 3: before he was convicted, and it's been suggested he's no
Speaker 3: longer an active member in the church. We went to
Speaker 3: see him and he wouldn't confirm anything. He didn't deny anything,
Speaker 3: but he didn't confirm anything and said he had no
Speaker 3: comment to make, and a lot of people have asked,
Speaker 3: you know, why bring that up again, Well, it's if
Speaker 3: we'd known about it at the time, it would have
Speaker 3: been reported. It's not the fact that this religion small
Speaker 3: and unusual and you know, slightly strange in some people's opinion.
Speaker 3: It's not about what the members worship and what their
Speaker 3: beliefs are. It's about who was holding positions of authority
Speaker 3: and power and trust in this group. Who they are
Speaker 3: and what they're doing, you know, whether they are a
Speaker 3: convicted sex offender or whether they are you know, there's
Speaker 3: various other occupations that whold leadership in this group, and
Speaker 3: you know, if they need to be held account, they
Speaker 3: will be. So for anyone that thinks that we're picking
Speaker 3: on a particular church or a particular religion, it's not
Speaker 3: about that. It's you know, making sure that these people
Speaker 3: in leadership roles are held to account where they need
Speaker 3: to be.
Speaker 1: So where to from here? In it from here?
Speaker 3: We will watch this police investigation with interest, you know,
Speaker 3: like any investigation into you know, we've seen investigations at
Speaker 3: Gloria Vale and we've seen investigations within the Catholic Church
Speaker 3: and you know, other religious groups. It's we'll watch it
Speaker 3: mostly what happens if if people are charged, we follow
Speaker 3: that through the courts. At the moment, I'm speaking to
Speaker 3: lot of ex members about their experiences, and I think,
Speaker 3: you know, it's important to know why they're speaking out.
Speaker 3: They want people to know what happens in this church.
Speaker 3: They want people to know why they left. They want
Speaker 3: this church to do better for various reasons, and that's
Speaker 3: why they're sort of speaking at the moment, you know.
Speaker 3: Going forward, I think there will be questions that need
Speaker 3: to be asked of the church about how it's handled
Speaker 3: things over the years and how it will protect its
Speaker 3: people going forward. I think the most important thing though, is,
Speaker 3: you know, just watching this police investigation, seeing what comes
Speaker 3: of it, you know, holding people to account and that jurisdiction,
Speaker 3: but also making sure that anyone that remains with the church,
Speaker 3: particularly young people, will be protected in future, and that
Speaker 3: you know, ultimately people are educated about what this group are,
Speaker 3: what they stand for, and what they're doing in the community.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Anna, Thank you.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news at
Speaker 2: enzedherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is produced
Speaker 2: by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also a
Speaker 2: sound engineer.
Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
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Speaker 2: behind the headlines.