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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the now the Leighton

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Speaker 1: Smith Podcast coward by news talks it B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the best of the Latensmith Podcast for the

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Speaker 2: twenty second of January twenty twenty five. Now, occasionally I

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Speaker 2: feel like making an introduction is unnecessary, or some people

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Speaker 2: feel a bit like furniture in the studio, if you

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Speaker 2: get what I mean. Ramesh the Kher is one of those.

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Speaker 2: He is well known to all of you. He has

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Speaker 2: appeared on the Laateon Smith podcast many times and it's

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Speaker 2: fairly obvious why now. There was much to catch up

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Speaker 2: on in this podcast, which was a podcast two forty eight.

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Speaker 2: Ramesh's views on the world and its various parts are

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Speaker 2: substantiated by life experience. He taught at a number of universities,

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Speaker 2: including a Tigo, the Australian National University in Canberra, and

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Speaker 2: he was rector at the un University United Nations. He

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Speaker 2: was also an Assistant Secretary General of the United Nations.

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Speaker 2: As a result, his commentary on world issues is nothing

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Speaker 2: short of superb So this is an informative and enjoyable discussion.

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Speaker 2: I trust that you will enjoy it. Let me remind

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Speaker 2: you we shall return with fresh content starting on February five,

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Speaker 2: so that's a couple of weeks away from here. Until then,

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Speaker 2: enjoy Ramesh Khur that he'll join us right after a break.

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Speaker 3: Layton Smith.

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Speaker 2: Leverix is an antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality.

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Speaker 2: antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality. So next

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Speaker 2: always read the label. Takes directed and if symptoms persist,

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Speaker 2: see your health professional. Farmer Broker Auckland. Rameshtha Kerr is

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Speaker 2: emeritus Professor in the Crawford School of Public Policy at

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Speaker 2: the Australian National University. He's a Fellow of the Austradian

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Speaker 2: Institute of International Affairs and Brownstone Institute's Senior Scotlar. He's

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Speaker 2: doing brilliant work with Brownstone. He was a Senior Vice

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Speaker 2: rector at the United Nations University and Assistant Secretary General

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Speaker 2: of the United Nations. Educated in India and Canada, he

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Speaker 2: was a professor of International Relations at the University of Otago,

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Speaker 2: a professor and head of the Peace Research Center the

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Speaker 2: Australian National University, and Foundation director of the Balsilly School

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Speaker 2: of International Affairs at Waterloo, Ontario. He's also served as

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Speaker 2: a consultant advisor to the Australian, New Zealand and Norwegian

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Speaker 2: governments on arms control, disarmament and international security issues. And

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Speaker 2: he was commissioner and one of the principal authors of

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Speaker 2: The Responsibility to Protect in two thousand and one, and

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Speaker 2: Senior Adviser on Reforms and principal writer of the United

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Speaker 2: Nations Secretary General KOFE. NaN's Second Reform Report in two

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Speaker 2: thousand and two. He's been on this podcast on more

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Speaker 2: than two occasions, and it's a great pleasure to welcome

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Speaker 2: in back.

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Speaker 3: Ramsha. I hope you're good. Good, Thank you. Laden.

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Speaker 2: I noticed that we hadn't spoken this year at all,

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Speaker 2: and that disturbed me, and it was it was even

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Speaker 2: it was about nine months ago. I think that we

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Speaker 2: that we actually did on ours interview. And I can't

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Speaker 2: understand that except that this year has.

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Speaker 3: Been a little bit. Time flies.

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Speaker 2: This year has been a little different to a lot

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Speaker 2: of a lot of others. Are you yes, you've just

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Speaker 2: come back from Japan too? What was the cause?

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Speaker 3: I was in Hiroshima.

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Speaker 4: Every year since twenty thirteen, the Governor of Hiroshima, which

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Speaker 4: is an elected position, has convened a small group of

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Speaker 4: international experts on a team called the Hiroshima Around Table.

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Speaker 4: We look at the year that has gone by and

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Speaker 4: look forward to the year that's coming with respect to

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Speaker 4: the threats and attempts to reduce the it's from nuclear weapons.

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Speaker 4: And we've done it every year except for two years

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Speaker 4: when we couldn't because of the travel restrictions in relation

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Speaker 4: to COVID?

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Speaker 3: Is it what you announced this? Sorry?

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Speaker 4: Just one last thing, well, I'm on that subject I

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Speaker 4: announced to the group this year that this will be

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Speaker 4: my last meeting. Excuse me, I'm getting a bit too

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Speaker 4: old to engage in long distance travel.

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Speaker 3: Your body rebuilt.

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Speaker 4: I'll keep going to New Zealand and to family in India,

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Speaker 4: and beyond that that's unlikely.

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Speaker 2: Well, there are people, it is really important or interesting.

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Speaker 2: There are people in New Zealand who will see you

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Speaker 2: as often as you like.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 2: You you've also published a book last year, our enemy,

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Speaker 2: the government. I want to talk to you about the book,

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Speaker 2: and I thought it appropriate to raise it at the beginning.

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Speaker 2: But before we do the book, I want to ask

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Speaker 2: you about your thoughts on American politics at this moment,

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Speaker 2: with the last couple of weeks in mind, because there

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Speaker 2: has been well what can I say, there has been

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Speaker 2: an earthquake. Politically of course.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, Well it's in a sense part of the

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Speaker 4: ongoing sense of in Churchill's words, the gathering storm once

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Speaker 4: again internationally. But of course the United States has a

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Speaker 4: uniquely important influence in shaping the contours of world affairs

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Speaker 4: and geopolitics as well. So what's happening that is important

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Speaker 4: for all of us, particularly all of us in the

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Speaker 4: Western democratic world. If you like, And we began the

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Speaker 4: year with the thought that surely the United States can

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Speaker 4: do better than presenting us with the same two choices.

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Speaker 4: But in fact, there has been remarkable developments with respect

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Speaker 4: to both of them within the past two to three weeks,

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Speaker 4: including today as we speak, or overnight as we speak,

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Speaker 4: with respect to President by then finally bowing to reality,

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Speaker 4: the political reality which is caused by his increasingly obvious

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Speaker 4: health reality. So yes, there's all sorts of convulsions is

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Speaker 4: probably the best word. In the meantime with the attempted

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Speaker 4: assassination on Trump, there's another whole slew of questions and

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Speaker 4: reflections in relation to that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think we're all going to be watching.

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Speaker 4: That particular photo endlessly from now in November, and I

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Speaker 4: suspect periodically after that. I'm not sure what photos you

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Speaker 4: can compare that to. It's certainly visually, very reminiscent of

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Speaker 4: the famous photograph on Yuojima as the Americans raised the

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Speaker 4: American flag, except that was obviously more consequential in terms

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Speaker 4: of the Pacific War theater of the Second World War,

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Speaker 4: but it was staged, whereas the Trump thing was reality

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Speaker 4: and technical for everyone who was watching it live or

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Speaker 4: unless they've been hiding themselves under rock. Watched the news

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Speaker 4: since then, and it recreates a myth of Trump which

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Speaker 4: is in a sense sharper than and different from his

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Speaker 4: previous perceived for sooner.

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Speaker 3: So that's one side of it.

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Speaker 4: And that followed the disastrous debate performance by Joe Biden,

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Speaker 4: which performed the reality that he's mentally aged a lot,

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Speaker 4: even in the past four years, almost on a monthly basis,

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Speaker 4: and essentially, to be blunt about it, the Democratic Party

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Speaker 4: and the press by and large have light to the

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Speaker 4: public about just how bad he's been and until it

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Speaker 4: became just too obvious and they had to backtrack, and

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Speaker 4: now he's had to leave.

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Speaker 3: Where does that leave us? We don't know.

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Speaker 4: But the fact remains that the election in November will

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Speaker 4: be except consequential for the United States and for the world.

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Speaker 4: And there's a number of themes that call us around that.

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Speaker 4: So that's on how much you want to unpack. But

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Speaker 4: you know, the just political stupidity, but the worrying implications

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Speaker 4: for democracy of the vay in which they have weaponized

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Speaker 4: lawfare against Trump, adding to the way they made it

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Speaker 4: impossible for him to govern in his first term. How

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Speaker 4: much of that has he learned from? Will he from

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Speaker 4: the first stay onwards to use his phrase, try to

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Speaker 4: drain the swamp, except with more efficiency and determination, perhaps

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Speaker 4: more success this time. Because that erosion of democratic freedom,

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Speaker 4: civil liberties, election integrity, the institutions, the slide from democratic

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Speaker 4: self governing republics and monarchies for that matter, to the

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Speaker 4: administrative administrative state where the technocratic elites are in charge,

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Speaker 4: aligned with international elites, technocratic elits and organizations, and in

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Speaker 4: collision with the big media, big tech, et cetera. The

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Speaker 4: transformation of democratic politics as we've known it in terms

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Speaker 4: of political partisanship and social pievage, in the sense that

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Speaker 4: democrats in the US, labor parties on the UK, Australia

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Speaker 4: and New Zealand have changed from have evolved and changed

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Speaker 4: qua dramatically from their roots and workers and working class

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Speaker 4: people into representing the elites. And it's the conservative parties

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Speaker 4: now that are increasingly aligning with the workers.

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Speaker 3: You see that vigaide devance.

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Speaker 4: You know, if you look, well, Kamala Harris another likely

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Speaker 4: to be the new presidential candidate. But if you look

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Speaker 4: at these two together, it's a good conjunction because between

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Speaker 4: them is the one who has white trash origins, if

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Speaker 4: I mean to use that phrase in this context, from Middletown,

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Speaker 4: Ohio and overcame that complete dysfunction, completely dysfunctional family, poor boy,

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Speaker 4: come good, worked on self discipline, used education, joined the Marines.

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Speaker 4: Then use the gi will leverage that background to enroll

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Speaker 4: in Ohio State University, graduated, went to Yale Law School,

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Speaker 4: graduated from there, became a venture capitalist of businessman, entrepreneur,

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Speaker 4: and then entered politics. And his book, I assuming you've

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Speaker 4: read it, Hillbilly Elergy. I read it some years ago

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Speaker 4: now when it came out. It's quite a gripping account

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Speaker 4: of this heart scrabble backstory that he has. And he

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Speaker 4: represents one, shall we say, a leg of the great

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Speaker 4: American dream of overcoming your origin is working hard and

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Speaker 4: achieving success and financial rewards. But just as importantly, and

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Speaker 4: I think at this point has to be made as well,

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Speaker 4: his wife, Usha Chili Huri Evans. Now she is from

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Speaker 4: middle class, comfortable background for immigrant parents, and represents the

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Speaker 4: dream that immigrants have when they come to the West

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Speaker 4: of working hard, being rewarded for it, and a belief

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Speaker 4: in the rule of law, where no one is either

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Speaker 4: above the law or below the law. In other words,

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Speaker 4: they are subject to the law and bound by it.

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Speaker 4: But they also are protected by the law against excesses

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Speaker 4: and arbitrary excess as a power. So all those things

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Speaker 4: are just being complete that in one sentenday. On the

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Speaker 4: other side, surprisingly, by contrast, Kamla Harris is the child

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Speaker 4: of privilege and as an adult, the beneficiary of political patrileage.

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Speaker 4: And yet in terms of racial identity, you think it

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Speaker 4: should be they around. So it's a strange world, but

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Speaker 4: it's a world in transformation.

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Speaker 2: In the middle of chaos, with hope it's creative rather

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Speaker 2: than destructive. Girls, Well, I'd very much like to think

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Speaker 2: that you're that you're right when you when you said

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Speaker 2: something about the two of them, were you talking about

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Speaker 2: about JD and his wife or were you referring to

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Speaker 2: him alone?

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Speaker 4: When I started off as referring to j Evans comparison

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Speaker 4: to Kamala Harris, well, then of course I did segive

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Speaker 4: into the two.

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Speaker 3: Of them in terms of the Vans and Vans.

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Speaker 2: So what about the combination of Trump and Vance? How

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Speaker 2: does that sit with you? It's an interesting choice. I

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Speaker 2: was very pleased with that, and we don't will. I

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Speaker 2: guess we might find out in due course if his

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Speaker 2: choice might have been different. Oh, he was leaning in

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Speaker 2: a different way before the attempt on his life. But

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Speaker 2: what happens after that is very interesting if you think

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Speaker 2: it through from his point of view. Firstly, I suspect

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Speaker 2: it confirms in his mind that he's going to win

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Speaker 2: this year, that that attempt and his survival and the

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Speaker 2: way he reacted in a sense, is the deed. If

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Speaker 2: that's the case, he doesn't need to worry so much

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Speaker 2: about a running mate who brings other state or other.

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Speaker 3: Votes to the elected college to add to his.

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Speaker 4: He now takes that for granted and thinks, okay, if

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Speaker 4: I win, I want my revolution to be institutionalized within

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Speaker 4: the party, and I want someone who will carry on

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Speaker 4: my legacy. Now, if you think of his first administration

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Speaker 4: and the chaos and his senior appointments and the Turner

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Speaker 4: were in the senior appointments, the vice president is the

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Speaker 4: one person he can't sack elected on the ticket. All

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Speaker 4: the other cabinet appointees he can sack. So he needs

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Speaker 4: someone that he thinks believes in his vision and in

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Speaker 4: his wo and in what he's trying to do, and secondly,

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Speaker 4: has the strength of character to withstand the attacks that

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Speaker 4: will come his way as well. So if you're going

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Speaker 4: to embed your legacy, none of the other potential choices

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Speaker 4: would have matched what Vance has to offer, whereas some

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Speaker 4: of the others would have been better in terms of

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Speaker 4: winning State A or State B as well. So there's

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Speaker 4: that consideration. Vance is trump Ism without the Trump character flaws.

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Speaker 4: He's articulate, he's personable, he's accomplished, he has a stable family.

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Speaker 4: He is clearly a devoted a husband and father, and

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Speaker 4: he seems to give higher priority to that than to

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Speaker 4: anything else, which is an understandable give in his own background.

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Speaker 4: Then at the convention he introduces his mother, and I

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Speaker 4: certainly haven't realized since reading the book that the mother

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Speaker 4: has been on the mend and has been and sob

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Speaker 4: as you put it, for more than nine years, almost

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Speaker 4: ten years or ten years will be completed in January.

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Speaker 4: So it's quite a compelling story. And I thought he

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Speaker 4: spoke very well, and his wife did a good job

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Speaker 4: introducing him as well, and I think that will build

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Speaker 4: and the two of them together should make an effective

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Speaker 4: set of campaigners. So for those reasons. I was actually

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Speaker 4: quite pleased with the choice. I think in terms of

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Speaker 4: what he's trying to do. You know, Brands is not

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Speaker 4: going to have the crude vulgarity that is an inevitable

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Speaker 4: part of the baggage of the package that comes with Trump.

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Speaker 4: But I think and also both of them are more

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Speaker 4: pragmatic conservatives rather than ideological conservatives, and so I think

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Speaker 4: they may balance out quite nicely. Vance is supposed to

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Speaker 4: be an excellent debater as well, and we've seen glimpses

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Speaker 4: of that.

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Speaker 3: So it will be interesting.

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Speaker 4: Now the course, the focus will turn to who's going

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Speaker 4: to be come Harris is running mate, and of course

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Speaker 4: on the final products. And now as someone who's Indian,

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Speaker 4: you've got a bit of Indian as a presidential candidate

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Speaker 4: now and one half of the advanced package as an

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Speaker 4: Indian background as well. So it's appearing to see us

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Speaker 4: in our community doing well.

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Speaker 2: The Indians are coming.

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Speaker 3: Indians, I hear it all, don't mind.

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Speaker 4: I don't think seemed like did very well as Rhyme

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Speaker 4: Minister in the UK, but acta at least, you know,

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Speaker 4: the good about the UK if if I'm against richtrad

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Speaker 4: is that Indians. He was just as he should have been,

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Speaker 4: all alone on his performance, not on the color of

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Speaker 4: his skin. And it's too has everlasting credit that he

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Speaker 4: has not blamed any of the results on racial discrimination

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Speaker 4: or Presidente and the same with Chilikuri. It's the family

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Speaker 4: that relied on hard work and application, not some claims

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Speaker 4: to favoritism. So I think if you look at the

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Speaker 4: Indian overseas Indian community, including in New Zealand, they seem

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Speaker 4: to reflect the thing that I argued in relation to

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Speaker 4: the voice to be here, and that is that I

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Speaker 4: do not seek any privilege or rights is not available

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Speaker 4: to every other Australian, but I do want to claim

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Speaker 4: rights all the rights that are available to any other Australian.

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Speaker 4: So just as on our merits and work, not on

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Speaker 4: our inherited characteristics. And that's I'm pleased to see that

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Speaker 4: that's a more widespread phenomena as far as the overseas

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Speaker 4: Indian community is concerned.

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Speaker 2: Now you may mention of the Democrat Party ed its henchman,

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Speaker 2: and in the same breath the media and how they

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Speaker 2: have deceived, which.

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Speaker 4: Deceived, dessembled protected Democrats tried to undermine that Trump first

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Speaker 4: administration and his candidacy since then.

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Speaker 3: So, yes, there are stills for the Democratic Party.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So the question, the question becomes, is that rectifiable

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Speaker 2: or is it? I mean, they're already back into the game,

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Speaker 2: and I'm talking I'm talking specifically the media. Now, I

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Speaker 2: mean they have switched sides on two or three occasions,

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Speaker 2: the media that we're talking about, the so called legacy media,

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Speaker 2: And it's only it's only taken a word from somebody

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Speaker 2: like a Bama or to to encourage that and effect

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Speaker 2: that switch, so that you know, within the twenty four

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Speaker 2: hour period, they're they're they're backing, they're backing Biden. Then

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, they're not backing Biden, and then

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Speaker 2: then they were again, at least some of them were.

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Speaker 2: And so the inconsistency wallet, now that's the wrong thing

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Speaker 2: to say, because they're very consistent in their in their approach,

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Speaker 2: even though even though there's a large slice of the

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Speaker 2: population here as well that realizes that they are dishonest

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Speaker 2: and even criminal in some quarters. But it doesn't seem

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Speaker 2: to penetrate the bulk of the Democrat Party.

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Speaker 3: No, but it has affected the reputation of the media

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Speaker 3: and reach.

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Speaker 4: If again, the polls have documented in country after country

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Speaker 4: declining trust in pretty much all the major institutions, and

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Speaker 4: in most places the reputation of the media is almost

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Speaker 4: the same as that of governments now, in other words,

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Speaker 4: very low. This is the legacy media, and so more

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Speaker 4: and more people are getting the information from other sources.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 4: Having said that, I do have some sympathy for the

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Speaker 4: legacy media in that clearly.

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Speaker 3: There have been under.

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Speaker 4: Great pressure and stress, even from the revolutions in technology

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Speaker 4: that has destroyed the old model of if not a

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Speaker 4: generous profitability, at least viable profitability. And they're losing money.

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Speaker 3: And you saw that.

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Speaker 4: I forget the huge amount that the Washington Post has

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Speaker 4: been losing, for example, and the owner came and said,

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Speaker 4: you know, you're losing this much per day. The people

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Speaker 4: are not interested in reading what you're writing. So that

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Speaker 4: message will sooner or later I have to either get

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Speaker 4: through or the leading examplars of legacy media will die

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Speaker 4: whither are on the vine, and the next to come

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Speaker 4: under stress will be the publicly funded broadcasters. I don't

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Speaker 4: think those models are viable either. I just I think

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Speaker 4: they'll go to subscription model and will have to be

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Speaker 4: forced to survive. And of course it's not true that

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Speaker 4: it's not necessarily the case that the case for publicly

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Speaker 4: funded broadcasting is as valid today as it was when

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Speaker 4: they were first set up.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's plenty of discussion about it from time to time,

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Speaker 2: when when a crisis arises and you find that the

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Speaker 2: investment that the population is putting into into the government

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Speaker 2: owned benches simply isn't isn't going anywhere and not achieving

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Speaker 2: anything now, and and so we we should we should

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Speaker 2: move on. I was going to ask you anyway, We've

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Speaker 2: we've already discussed a fair bit of politics, but the

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Speaker 2: state of the world in general. You with your experience,

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Speaker 2: and we've emphasized that on numerous occasions, but your your

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Speaker 2: United Nations experience and what came from it, What is

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Speaker 2: your interpretation of where the world is at at the

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Speaker 2: moment out leaving America aside.

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Speaker 4: Well, there's several things. On the one hand, there's little well,

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Speaker 4: different theaters of the gathering storm and tensions that seem

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Speaker 4: to keep ratsetting up. Ukraine is still a problem in Europe.

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Speaker 4: The Middle East is getting worse rather than better, and

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Speaker 4: it certainly looks as though with the Gaza situation under

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Speaker 4: control by Israel.

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Speaker 3: From Israel's point of view, the.

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Speaker 4: Tension might be resting up on the northern border with

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Speaker 4: regard to his vola in Lebanon. So there's that, and

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Speaker 4: then of course the unresolved issue with Iran.

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Speaker 3: We keep.

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Speaker 4: There's no reason to feel any less worried about what's

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Speaker 4: happening in East Asia around the South China Sea and

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Speaker 4: Taiwan issue Korean Peninsula. I don't think it's any worse,

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Speaker 4: but it's not got any easier either. I think the

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Speaker 4: subcontinent at the moment, with the exception of what's volatility

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Speaker 4: domestic volatility in Bangladesh, at least in international politics of continent,

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Speaker 4: is perhaps a bit less volatile. And I was actually

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Speaker 4: please with the outcome of the election in India in

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Speaker 4: terms of putting a check on the authority intendencies of

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Speaker 4: the government without necessarily throwing them out to plunge Inja

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Speaker 4: into instability. And I think across the Western world in

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Speaker 4: the meantime, the thing that vories me in terms of

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Speaker 4: the centralization of power, firstly in the central government and

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Speaker 4: then in the office of the Prime Minister, and the

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Speaker 4: growth of the power of the state at the expense

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Speaker 4: of the freedoms and liberties of citizens that remains of concern,

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Speaker 4: certainly in the UK. I think the indication that the

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Speaker 4: Starmer government is going in for a massive emputy, rapid

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Speaker 4: expansion of the techno bureaucratic pongocratic if there is such

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Speaker 4: a word state as well rather than and that will

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Speaker 4: have the inevitable effect of producing freedom. And I think

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Speaker 4: the international trends again reflect the centralization of power and

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Speaker 4: influence in the global alliance of the technocratic elite. So

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Speaker 4: I think at some stage this disconnect between what the

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Speaker 4: people are prepared to tolerate. You see the pushback in Europe,

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Speaker 4: and I think it's going to come here as well.

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Speaker 4: And I don't mind not about New Zealand now, but

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Speaker 4: the pushback as the individual costs of the net zero

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Speaker 4: green agenda become obvious, people are saying, no, we are

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Speaker 4: not going to we are not prepared to pay that price,

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Speaker 4: and we don't see that, you know, but if you

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Speaker 4: look at the health infrastructure, for example, we don't see

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Speaker 4: why you should prioritize the health of the planet against

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Speaker 4: the alleged threat of global warming over the needs of

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Speaker 4: our health today. And yet you've got the WHO expanding

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Speaker 4: sentacles to embrace climate change as a health threat. You've

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Speaker 4: got medical counsels in various places doing the same thing.

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Speaker 4: So those things are on top of the geopolitical tensions,

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Speaker 4: and you just get the same sense that at some

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Speaker 4: point some thing's got to give, which was in a sense,

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Speaker 4: in a strange way, if you know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: I think that was also the case with the assassination

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Speaker 4: attempt on Trump. The qualification, the abuse was getting to

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Speaker 4: extreme youth against sense that something had to give, and

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Speaker 4: that happened. So there's some release point of pressure, some

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Speaker 4: valve that will release the pressure that's going to Europe

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Speaker 4: somewhere or other, is my sense.

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Speaker 2: So the existing institutions of global governors meant to manage

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Speaker 2: all this peaceably smoothly.

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Speaker 3: They're proving less and less fit.

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Speaker 4: For purpose, and that gap between the institutions of governance,

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Speaker 4: both nationally and internationally and the people's needs and desires

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Speaker 4: and expectations, that gap is putting stress both on national

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Speaker 4: government systems and global government systems which are more Which

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Speaker 4: is a more abstract way of making the same argument.

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Speaker 2: There's so many tangents we could spike off on from

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Speaker 2: from what you've just said, But I'm intrigued with your

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Speaker 2: one word of thought dis goes against the grain of

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Speaker 2: your your background in the United Nations, especially as a

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Speaker 2: as a.

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Speaker 3: Sorry what's the word assistant secretary general, assistance general.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, let me let me just let me spit

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Speaker 2: this out. I'm see you and I travel. I've discovered

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Speaker 2: in the same boat on numerous issues, and climate climate

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Speaker 2: change is one of them. I'm looking at a headline

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Speaker 2: and I can't even tell you where I got it

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Speaker 2: from because I printed it and it's got no reference

434
00:28:15,453 --> 00:28:18,293
Speaker 2: to it. But the headline is climate change and man

435
00:28:18,293 --> 00:28:21,813
Speaker 2: made co to the biggest con in history. I know

436
00:28:21,893 --> 00:28:25,373
Speaker 2: that it's from a legitimate site, but I can't recall

437
00:28:25,413 --> 00:28:28,093
Speaker 2: which one because I've had it for a while. But

438
00:28:29,213 --> 00:28:32,253
Speaker 2: at the very last paragraph, humans attempting to eliminate CO

439
00:28:32,413 --> 00:28:35,773
Speaker 2: two from the atmosphere is equivalent to some evil, fictional

440
00:28:36,133 --> 00:28:41,693
Speaker 2: plant demon attending to eliminate attempting to eliminate oxygen from

441
00:28:41,733 --> 00:28:46,493
Speaker 2: the atmosphere, causing the mass asphyxiation of the entire human race.

442
00:28:47,573 --> 00:28:51,613
Speaker 2: Just as eliminating oxygen is genocide against humans, eliminating carbon

443
00:28:51,653 --> 00:28:55,613
Speaker 2: dioxide is genocide against plants. Now, do you get the

444
00:28:55,653 --> 00:28:59,933
Speaker 2: feeling that this is starting to make progress and sink

445
00:29:00,053 --> 00:29:02,453
Speaker 2: through some rather thick brains.

446
00:29:03,173 --> 00:29:03,613
Speaker 3: I think so.

447
00:29:04,613 --> 00:29:07,813
Speaker 4: And it's getting through the governments as well, not certainly

448
00:29:07,813 --> 00:29:09,613
Speaker 4: not the most ye at the moment, but you know,

449
00:29:09,933 --> 00:29:16,493
Speaker 4: this year the opposition party has at least committed to

450
00:29:16,613 --> 00:29:21,053
Speaker 4: reopening the domestic nuclear energy debate. So there is that progress,

451
00:29:21,053 --> 00:29:24,773
Speaker 4: and there I think of reading the room in the

452
00:29:24,813 --> 00:29:30,853
Speaker 4: global level and the States and in in Europe, and

453
00:29:30,933 --> 00:29:33,653
Speaker 4: you had the commitment from I think on this board

454
00:29:33,733 --> 00:29:37,973
Speaker 4: ban Vat, who let's say, said other like more likely

455
00:29:38,013 --> 00:29:41,733
Speaker 4: winners at this stage in November, they are committed to

456
00:29:41,813 --> 00:29:48,373
Speaker 4: reversing the green agenda completely and very urgently. In fact,

457
00:29:48,373 --> 00:29:52,093
Speaker 4: Trump and his acceptance speech went back to his drill, Baby, drill,

458
00:29:53,053 --> 00:30:01,693
Speaker 4: and Vance made a reference to that as well. So

459
00:30:01,973 --> 00:30:06,493
Speaker 4: I think that is getting through. But the problem is

460
00:30:06,533 --> 00:30:12,093
Speaker 4: there's been so much indoctrination, brainwashing that I'd be surprised

461
00:30:12,133 --> 00:30:15,813
Speaker 4: if a majority of young people realize that carbon dioxide

462
00:30:16,053 --> 00:30:22,213
Speaker 4: is absolutely essential to plant life. And I don't think

463
00:30:22,253 --> 00:30:26,053
Speaker 4: most of them would would know or would even believe

464
00:30:26,053 --> 00:30:30,053
Speaker 4: you if you told them that there has been actually

465
00:30:30,133 --> 00:30:36,293
Speaker 4: a greening of the world with increased warmth, nor would

466
00:30:36,293 --> 00:30:40,213
Speaker 4: they know that all the evidence, all the available research

467
00:30:40,493 --> 00:30:46,053
Speaker 4: shows that in relation to extreme weather conditions, ten times

468
00:30:46,093 --> 00:30:49,213
Speaker 4: as many people in the world die from extreme cold

469
00:30:49,253 --> 00:30:51,853
Speaker 4: as from extreme heat. When has there been a time

470
00:30:51,893 --> 00:30:55,373
Speaker 4: when climate has not changed? And in relation to what

471
00:30:55,413 --> 00:30:58,213
Speaker 4: you're thinking about the United Nations, I don't think it

472
00:30:58,293 --> 00:31:00,893
Speaker 4: helps anyone for the Second General to start using the

473
00:31:01,293 --> 00:31:05,253
Speaker 4: hyperbolic language of we have moved on from climate, from

474
00:31:05,293 --> 00:31:12,773
Speaker 4: global warming to global boiling. Just irresponsible, extremist language. We're

475
00:31:12,813 --> 00:31:15,893
Speaker 4: all interested, I think, to know from your perspective when

476
00:31:16,053 --> 00:31:19,733
Speaker 4: the un changed. Can I say as dramatically as it

477
00:31:19,733 --> 00:31:23,373
Speaker 4: seems to have over over over a period of time,

478
00:31:24,213 --> 00:31:26,573
Speaker 4: but it when, when did it start?

479
00:31:28,773 --> 00:31:33,933
Speaker 3: It's been well, it's been gradual, I suppose, And I

480
00:31:33,973 --> 00:31:36,653
Speaker 3: think you'd have to tie to what I was saying earlier,

481
00:31:37,293 --> 00:31:41,733
Speaker 3: as the functions that the core functions of government.

482
00:31:42,973 --> 00:31:48,333
Speaker 4: Are delegated from the legislature and the executive to the

483
00:31:48,413 --> 00:31:53,373
Speaker 4: administrative state and the technocrats. That has become reflected in

484
00:31:53,453 --> 00:31:57,013
Speaker 4: the international organizations as well, because it's the same technocratic

485
00:31:57,053 --> 00:32:01,493
Speaker 4: elite that moves society base back and forth. And so

486
00:32:02,933 --> 00:32:10,173
Speaker 4: if we were to retake the agenda and vest the

487
00:32:10,213 --> 00:32:15,133
Speaker 4: real powers of the functioning of government back in the

488
00:32:15,173 --> 00:32:18,853
Speaker 4: parliament and back in the executive and take it away

489
00:32:18,933 --> 00:32:23,213
Speaker 4: from the bureaucracy and the judiciary. Then I think you

490
00:32:23,333 --> 00:32:25,893
Speaker 4: see that reflected in the United Nations as well. The

491
00:32:26,013 --> 00:32:29,933
Speaker 4: United Nations is not an independent actor. It is still

492
00:32:30,013 --> 00:32:35,973
Speaker 4: subject to control and ownership by governments, and so if

493
00:32:35,973 --> 00:32:39,893
Speaker 4: the politicians took childs of it more, then I think

494
00:32:39,933 --> 00:32:42,173
Speaker 4: you see that transferred.

495
00:32:41,653 --> 00:32:43,333
Speaker 3: Across to the United Nations as well.

496
00:32:43,653 --> 00:32:45,333
Speaker 4: So I think we have to be careful not to

497
00:32:45,373 --> 00:32:49,093
Speaker 4: blame the United Nations directly.

498
00:32:49,133 --> 00:32:51,453
Speaker 3: As such, it does what Member states want.

499
00:32:52,133 --> 00:32:55,573
Speaker 4: Policy is set by the Member States, not by the

500
00:32:55,613 --> 00:33:00,093
Speaker 4: International Secretariat even the Secretary General and call for things,

501
00:33:00,093 --> 00:33:02,173
Speaker 4: but he doesn't get to vote on these issues.

502
00:33:06,853 --> 00:33:10,333
Speaker 2: What about the influence that the show we say the

503
00:33:10,413 --> 00:33:14,653
Speaker 2: darker nations have and I don't mean color, I mean

504
00:33:14,853 --> 00:33:19,093
Speaker 2: in outlook on things, and I'm and I'm thinking of

505
00:33:19,413 --> 00:33:24,893
Speaker 2: I'm thinking of the dictatorial countries specifically. Why is why

506
00:33:24,973 --> 00:33:27,013
Speaker 2: they don't they don't they don't have so much power

507
00:33:27,053 --> 00:33:30,573
Speaker 2: in the human system. It's it's mainly in the Security Council,

508
00:33:30,693 --> 00:33:33,573
Speaker 2: is the Western powers in the General Assembly that there's

509
00:33:34,133 --> 00:33:36,093
Speaker 2: they don't have a.

510
00:33:35,653 --> 00:33:41,733
Speaker 3: Such a huge block. It's on Israel.

511
00:33:41,453 --> 00:33:44,133
Speaker 4: For example, the agenda is driven by the Middle East

512
00:33:44,213 --> 00:33:47,533
Speaker 4: and Islamic countries, not not by the digitarorial countries so

513
00:33:47,613 --> 00:33:51,853
Speaker 4: much or not Similarly on other issues is different coalitions.

514
00:33:52,653 --> 00:33:56,493
Speaker 4: And there are some countries that are influential swing states,

515
00:33:56,493 --> 00:33:59,733
Speaker 4: and that includes India. It used to include Sweden, for example,

516
00:34:00,573 --> 00:34:03,053
Speaker 4: Canada used to be, but it's not at the moment.

517
00:34:04,093 --> 00:34:07,973
Speaker 4: Of the five permanent members, three are Western Democratic UK France.

518
00:34:08,093 --> 00:34:12,533
Speaker 4: You say, I think we need to remember that the

519
00:34:13,413 --> 00:34:15,573
Speaker 4: most of the UN agenda is still under the West

520
00:34:15,573 --> 00:34:17,773
Speaker 4: control and the workers them that comes from the West

521
00:34:18,133 --> 00:34:19,293
Speaker 4: and is driven by the West.

522
00:34:20,093 --> 00:34:25,013
Speaker 2: Okay, you you mentioned Israel. Momentarily what to quote you?

523
00:34:25,173 --> 00:34:29,653
Speaker 2: As the liberal international order fades, institutions that were created

524
00:34:29,653 --> 00:34:33,493
Speaker 2: as part of the euphoria of liberal internationalism are becoming

525
00:34:33,693 --> 00:34:36,293
Speaker 2: unmoored from foundational.

526
00:34:35,733 --> 00:34:38,213
Speaker 3: Values as rather than context of the ICC.

527
00:34:38,493 --> 00:34:38,653
Speaker 4: Yeah.

528
00:34:38,733 --> 00:34:42,053
Speaker 2: Yeah, As relative power is ceded to newly powerful but

529
00:34:42,173 --> 00:34:46,053
Speaker 2: illiberal countries, Western powers that designed, created and provided stewardship

530
00:34:46,413 --> 00:34:51,213
Speaker 2: stewardship in the post forty five order losing their controlling

531
00:34:51,253 --> 00:34:55,773
Speaker 2: grip of the institutions of that order. Speaking of Israel

532
00:34:56,573 --> 00:34:58,533
Speaker 2: and this you wrote this, of course of the opening

533
00:34:58,533 --> 00:35:05,773
Speaker 2: paragraph of the ICC's legitimacy and integrity the important word epicits.

534
00:35:05,493 --> 00:35:13,573
Speaker 2: So what is your take then on Israel's performance to

535
00:35:13,733 --> 00:35:17,133
Speaker 2: date in the wars?

536
00:35:18,133 --> 00:35:21,813
Speaker 4: Firstly, that general argument that I was making there is

537
00:35:21,853 --> 00:35:25,893
Speaker 4: a continuation of the argument that I've been making since

538
00:35:25,973 --> 00:35:28,173
Speaker 4: my book on the UN and back in two thousand

539
00:35:28,173 --> 00:35:31,373
Speaker 4: and six, So it's not actually new, but the trend

540
00:35:31,413 --> 00:35:35,093
Speaker 4: has continued and has intensified. And I was raising these

541
00:35:35,093 --> 00:35:40,053
Speaker 4: issues then already, and I remember writing, for example, in

542
00:35:40,093 --> 00:35:45,293
Speaker 4: relation to the death penalty, by what technocratic grace or

543
00:35:45,333 --> 00:35:48,813
Speaker 4: by what legitimacy does the United Nations claim a state

544
00:35:48,893 --> 00:35:52,213
Speaker 4: of grace above and beyond that of its member states

545
00:35:52,213 --> 00:35:56,013
Speaker 4: when it comes to the death penalty. So it's those

546
00:35:56,093 --> 00:35:59,213
Speaker 4: the general questions. And I was raising the same issue

547
00:35:59,253 --> 00:36:01,733
Speaker 4: in relation to the piece efforts in these.

548
00:36:01,693 --> 00:36:02,413
Speaker 3: Teamor And.

549
00:36:04,013 --> 00:36:06,013
Speaker 4: You know that when they were deciding that they would

550
00:36:07,053 --> 00:36:11,173
Speaker 4: disband the not to pursue criminal justice against the previous

551
00:36:11,213 --> 00:36:14,533
Speaker 4: regime in relation to each timor and the new government

552
00:36:14,533 --> 00:36:17,853
Speaker 4: and Indonesia and that agreement of predecision, that these are

553
00:36:17,893 --> 00:36:20,493
Speaker 4: issues that were raised in relation to trying to and

554
00:36:20,533 --> 00:36:22,373
Speaker 4: conflicts in Africa.

555
00:36:22,933 --> 00:36:26,213
Speaker 3: So all that was there, but it has intensified.

556
00:36:27,893 --> 00:36:32,973
Speaker 4: The difficulty is now since then the rise of China

557
00:36:33,013 --> 00:36:38,493
Speaker 4: has become more obvious, and inevitably the major powers of

558
00:36:38,533 --> 00:36:43,773
Speaker 4: the era will seek and will gain commensurate influence in

559
00:36:43,813 --> 00:36:48,173
Speaker 4: the institutions of governance of the time. And the fact

560
00:36:48,213 --> 00:36:50,093
Speaker 4: that for the first time in history, we're going to

561
00:36:50,133 --> 00:36:54,293
Speaker 4: have a global hedgemon that's not English speaking, that's not liberal,

562
00:36:54,333 --> 00:37:00,813
Speaker 4: that's not democratic, that's not capitalist, and doesn't engage in

563
00:37:00,813 --> 00:37:04,133
Speaker 4: international diplomacy in the English language. All that's creating a

564
00:37:04,133 --> 00:37:07,013
Speaker 4: lot of discomfort for us as bound to and as

565
00:37:07,013 --> 00:37:07,453
Speaker 4: it should.

566
00:37:07,733 --> 00:37:09,253
Speaker 3: So that's the issue now.

567
00:37:09,293 --> 00:37:12,973
Speaker 4: In relation to Israel and the United Nations and the ICJ,

568
00:37:13,573 --> 00:37:17,133
Speaker 4: the World Court and the International Criminal Court, You've.

569
00:37:17,013 --> 00:37:18,893
Speaker 3: Got a peculiar situation where.

570
00:37:20,173 --> 00:37:25,133
Speaker 4: Different parts of the UN system either defer excessively to

571
00:37:25,293 --> 00:37:30,093
Speaker 4: Israel or focus excessively on it and condemn it excessively

572
00:37:30,133 --> 00:37:33,333
Speaker 4: disproportionate to compare to others. So the Human Rights Council,

573
00:37:33,373 --> 00:37:36,613
Speaker 4: for example, puts Israel in the talk more than any

574
00:37:36,653 --> 00:37:40,973
Speaker 4: other country, and that clearly cannot be justified on any

575
00:37:40,973 --> 00:37:41,933
Speaker 4: objective basis.

576
00:37:42,573 --> 00:37:44,253
Speaker 3: On the other hand, in the Security Council.

577
00:37:45,093 --> 00:37:47,653
Speaker 4: Israel has got away with defiance of United Nations or

578
00:37:47,653 --> 00:37:52,693
Speaker 4: resolutions more than any other single country. The World Court

579
00:37:52,773 --> 00:37:56,413
Speaker 4: has ruled on the legality of Israeli occupation.

580
00:37:57,013 --> 00:37:59,173
Speaker 3: In terms of international law. I think the World Court

581
00:37:59,253 --> 00:37:59,613
Speaker 3: is right.

582
00:38:00,413 --> 00:38:05,013
Speaker 4: At the International Criminal Court, the prosecutor has sought a restaurance,

583
00:38:05,493 --> 00:38:08,573
Speaker 4: but the judges have not yet granted that. I hope

584
00:38:08,573 --> 00:38:11,573
Speaker 4: they don't give it. If they do, it creates different

585
00:38:11,573 --> 00:38:14,413
Speaker 4: set of difficulties. But now you relate that to what

586
00:38:15,013 --> 00:38:18,573
Speaker 4: my basic argument has been for two to three decades

587
00:38:18,653 --> 00:38:22,493
Speaker 4: now in relation to these issues, and that is the

588
00:38:22,613 --> 00:38:26,533
Speaker 4: international level, you have a development of legal institutions and

589
00:38:26,613 --> 00:38:32,213
Speaker 4: criminal justice institutions that stand by themselves without the supporting

590
00:38:32,373 --> 00:38:40,213
Speaker 4: infrastructure of a legislature, a bureaucracy, an executive, and that

591
00:38:40,293 --> 00:38:41,733
Speaker 4: reverses the historical trend.

592
00:38:41,773 --> 00:38:42,413
Speaker 3: Domestically.

593
00:38:43,853 --> 00:38:49,053
Speaker 4: A functioning legal system apart from the legislature and the

594
00:38:49,133 --> 00:38:53,733
Speaker 4: executive comes at the end of establishment of institutions of governments,

595
00:38:54,213 --> 00:38:57,493
Speaker 4: not at the very start. They don't, for example, have

596
00:38:57,653 --> 00:39:00,573
Speaker 4: enforcement capabilities themselves.

597
00:39:01,853 --> 00:39:03,613
Speaker 3: And it's when the.

598
00:39:03,413 --> 00:39:07,773
Speaker 4: Basic first auto political questions are settled and the purpose

599
00:39:07,813 --> 00:39:14,493
Speaker 4: of the state reflected in our constitutional constitutional arrangement of

600
00:39:14,533 --> 00:39:19,973
Speaker 4: government parts, whether in written constitution or what convention, then

601
00:39:20,093 --> 00:39:23,573
Speaker 4: you can start having separation of judiciary from the others.

602
00:39:24,373 --> 00:39:26,653
Speaker 3: But at the moment we don't have that internationally.

603
00:39:26,813 --> 00:39:32,093
Speaker 4: And should the Prime Minister of Israel be welcome in

604
00:39:32,173 --> 00:39:35,813
Speaker 4: Australia or New Zealand, or the UK or India. Should

605
00:39:35,853 --> 00:39:39,373
Speaker 4: the President of Suddam be welcome in South Africa or

606
00:39:39,413 --> 00:39:44,693
Speaker 4: in India? These at the moment are not principally legal

607
00:39:44,813 --> 00:39:48,933
Speaker 4: questions to be addressed, announswered with a legal analysis and

608
00:39:48,973 --> 00:39:52,533
Speaker 4: passing of what things are. They are primarily political questions

609
00:39:52,533 --> 00:39:55,373
Speaker 4: and for us they are foreign policy questions. And I

610
00:39:55,453 --> 00:40:00,253
Speaker 4: don't think it works to subordinate every other calculation to

611
00:40:00,373 --> 00:40:04,373
Speaker 4: the determination of the law and the criminal law as

612
00:40:04,453 --> 00:40:08,693
Speaker 4: judged by Democrats sitting in the Hague. And that was

613
00:40:08,733 --> 00:40:12,493
Speaker 4: a mistake that was made, and it's coming home the

614
00:40:12,533 --> 00:40:18,133
Speaker 4: implications of that. How can you reconcile the fact that

615
00:40:18,213 --> 00:40:22,573
Speaker 4: the United States and Russia and China are not members

616
00:40:22,573 --> 00:40:26,093
Speaker 4: of the International Criminal Court, have not subjected themselves to

617
00:40:26,133 --> 00:40:28,693
Speaker 4: the discipline and authority of the Criminal Court, have not

618
00:40:28,773 --> 00:40:31,693
Speaker 4: signed the wrong statute, and yet have a vote in

619
00:40:31,693 --> 00:40:34,533
Speaker 4: the Security Council on matters that come up in relation

620
00:40:34,613 --> 00:40:37,973
Speaker 4: to the criminal Court. India has not signed the NPT,

621
00:40:38,173 --> 00:40:41,253
Speaker 4: doesn't get a vote on it. United States has not

622
00:40:41,333 --> 00:40:43,533
Speaker 4: signed the Convention of the Law of the Sea, doesn't

623
00:40:43,533 --> 00:40:45,293
Speaker 4: have a vote on it or any role in it.

624
00:40:46,213 --> 00:40:49,453
Speaker 4: So there are all these compromises that we thought, well,

625
00:40:49,493 --> 00:40:52,173
Speaker 4: we'll just keep quite about it because we want progress

626
00:40:52,253 --> 00:40:58,573
Speaker 4: on this. But the result is it's creating political difficulties.

627
00:40:58,853 --> 00:41:02,053
Speaker 4: And I think it was a British Prime Minister Rishisunakhu

628
00:41:02,093 --> 00:41:05,733
Speaker 4: said in relationship to the ICC request for the arrest

629
00:41:05,813 --> 00:41:08,893
Speaker 4: warrant by the prosecutor. This doesn't advance any of the

630
00:41:08,893 --> 00:41:12,293
Speaker 4: political agendas. It doesn't help to seek relief of the hostages.

631
00:41:12,333 --> 00:41:15,373
Speaker 4: In fact, it delete it. They delays it. It will

632
00:41:15,413 --> 00:41:20,813
Speaker 4: impede and obstruct a set negotiating a compromise, and it

633
00:41:20,853 --> 00:41:23,813
Speaker 4: doesn't help in a relation to the S two test

634
00:41:24,093 --> 00:41:28,613
Speaker 4: to state solution as an ultimate objective of these negotiations

635
00:41:28,653 --> 00:41:32,813
Speaker 4: either And here's right on the practical side, all the

636
00:41:33,613 --> 00:41:37,773
Speaker 4: three parts agender were obstructed rather than facilitated by that.

637
00:41:38,253 --> 00:41:40,253
Speaker 4: But of course the legal answer to that is well,

638
00:41:40,293 --> 00:41:42,893
Speaker 4: that's not our concerned. You're only looking at the law

639
00:41:43,413 --> 00:41:47,133
Speaker 4: and that's what I'm saying, the separation from law of

640
00:41:47,253 --> 00:41:51,853
Speaker 4: law from politics doesn't work under existing international conditions we

641
00:41:51,973 --> 00:41:56,093
Speaker 4: wanted domestically, and we see the consequences of not having

642
00:41:56,133 --> 00:42:00,573
Speaker 4: it with the weaponization of lawfare against Trump. But again,

643
00:42:00,613 --> 00:42:02,093
Speaker 4: the political impact has been has.

644
00:42:02,013 --> 00:42:04,893
Speaker 3: Backfired on Democrats. I'm glad you made you don't think.

645
00:42:05,293 --> 00:42:08,333
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm I'm glad you mentioned Trump again, just momentarily

646
00:42:08,413 --> 00:42:11,893
Speaker 2: because I was going to go back there off the

647
00:42:11,933 --> 00:42:15,933
Speaker 2: but off the back of what you've been saying, Can

648
00:42:15,973 --> 00:42:19,533
Speaker 2: you give me a good reason why there are, as

649
00:42:19,533 --> 00:42:25,613
Speaker 2: far as I know, three Trump X advisors or staff

650
00:42:25,693 --> 00:42:28,973
Speaker 2: members who are in jail at the moment for declining

651
00:42:29,013 --> 00:42:33,373
Speaker 2: to accept a subpoena to appear before a House committee.

652
00:42:34,613 --> 00:42:35,973
Speaker 3: And it's just been released.

653
00:42:36,013 --> 00:42:39,893
Speaker 4: I think who has one of them has been released

654
00:42:39,893 --> 00:42:40,973
Speaker 4: to served his term?

655
00:42:41,253 --> 00:42:46,413
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, but but he served his term. And at

656
00:42:46,453 --> 00:42:51,533
Speaker 2: the same time, the present Attorney general also declined to

657
00:42:51,573 --> 00:42:55,973
Speaker 2: accept his invitations to appear before before the other House

658
00:42:55,973 --> 00:43:00,493
Speaker 2: committee just refused basic basically stuck his nose in the

659
00:43:00,533 --> 00:43:02,533
Speaker 2: air and told him what they could do with it. Now,

660
00:43:04,213 --> 00:43:07,093
Speaker 2: where's the jail term for him? That's this is only

661
00:43:07,173 --> 00:43:11,453
Speaker 2: one one single example of so many of similar situations.

662
00:43:11,453 --> 00:43:12,653
Speaker 2: But I'm just wondering your thoughts.

663
00:43:14,533 --> 00:43:16,333
Speaker 4: Well, it goes back to the things which is the

664
00:43:16,453 --> 00:43:19,773
Speaker 4: enforcement arm is the Department of Justice. So for that

665
00:43:19,813 --> 00:43:22,733
Speaker 4: to happen, you need a change of administration, and that

666
00:43:22,853 --> 00:43:31,053
Speaker 4: becomes a problem. I think it is an inconsistency, but

667
00:43:31,133 --> 00:43:34,933
Speaker 4: it's not as bad really as a prosecutor who campaigns

668
00:43:34,973 --> 00:43:38,373
Speaker 4: on getting Trump and then bends and twists the law

669
00:43:38,413 --> 00:43:42,493
Speaker 4: into a complete pretzel to pursue Trump, and that whole

670
00:43:42,533 --> 00:43:47,053
Speaker 4: thing is just absolutely ridiculous, and I think it is

671
00:43:47,093 --> 00:43:48,173
Speaker 4: a backside big time.

672
00:43:50,893 --> 00:43:52,613
Speaker 2: Got a little while to wait to see that, but

673
00:43:53,093 --> 00:43:54,813
Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to you being right.

674
00:43:55,973 --> 00:43:59,093
Speaker 4: I don't think Trump would have had an easy ride

675
00:43:59,173 --> 00:44:02,493
Speaker 4: to nomination of the Department Party if they had not

676
00:44:02,613 --> 00:44:06,893
Speaker 4: pursued him so recklessly and so relentlessly. And they have

677
00:44:07,013 --> 00:44:10,373
Speaker 4: proven his assertion that they're coming after him with everything

678
00:44:10,413 --> 00:44:16,573
Speaker 4: they've got. They vilified him, they slandered him, they made

679
00:44:16,613 --> 00:44:20,413
Speaker 4: it impossible for him to govern as a duly elected president,

680
00:44:20,853 --> 00:44:24,293
Speaker 4: and the shoot path saying he doesn't accept election results.

681
00:44:24,773 --> 00:44:28,493
Speaker 4: You have intelligence officers lie to the American public Before

682
00:44:28,533 --> 00:44:32,413
Speaker 4: the last election, the fifteen intelligence officers seenior intellience offices.

683
00:44:32,653 --> 00:44:34,853
Speaker 3: In relation to the Hunter Biden laptop story.

684
00:44:35,533 --> 00:44:38,173
Speaker 4: Then they have tried to bankrupt him, they have tried

685
00:44:38,213 --> 00:44:41,493
Speaker 4: to imprison him, and in the recent times they even

686
00:44:41,493 --> 00:44:43,773
Speaker 4: had a shot at him. I mean, I'm using their

687
00:44:43,853 --> 00:44:46,213
Speaker 4: in the general sense there, because we don't know what

688
00:44:46,493 --> 00:44:50,973
Speaker 4: Car's motivation was. But all that progressively, a lot of

689
00:44:51,053 --> 00:44:55,413
Speaker 4: independents who would have found Trump too distasteful to vote

690
00:44:55,453 --> 00:45:01,773
Speaker 4: for him have been angered enough and incensed enough at

691
00:45:01,773 --> 00:45:06,493
Speaker 4: this overt politicization and weaponization of the justice system that

692
00:45:06,573 --> 00:45:08,573
Speaker 4: they see that as a greater threat to demo ste

693
00:45:08,653 --> 00:45:09,293
Speaker 4: than Trumps.

694
00:45:10,853 --> 00:45:12,813
Speaker 3: And there's lots of poor evidence to back that up.

695
00:45:14,053 --> 00:45:17,893
Speaker 2: There is, so bringing it back to the to the

696
00:45:18,093 --> 00:45:22,773
Speaker 2: to the present, and another matter, we all we all

697
00:45:22,813 --> 00:45:26,013
Speaker 2: agreed that speech, free speech is very important. You can't

698
00:45:26,013 --> 00:45:31,253
Speaker 2: have democracy without free speech. It's it's not possible. So

699
00:45:32,013 --> 00:45:36,693
Speaker 2: there was somebody who was in a crossover consistency. I

700
00:45:36,733 --> 00:45:41,013
Speaker 2: suppose there was somebody who spent a long time either

701
00:45:41,973 --> 00:45:46,733
Speaker 2: either penned up or in jail who has very recently

702
00:45:46,773 --> 00:45:49,253
Speaker 2: been released, of course, and that is Julian Assange.

703
00:45:50,493 --> 00:45:52,373
Speaker 3: And and you wrote on.

704
00:45:54,453 --> 00:46:00,453
Speaker 2: You called the column defending Assange. Ah, I started out

705
00:46:00,493 --> 00:46:03,373
Speaker 2: if I may. I started out years ago thinking he

706
00:46:03,573 --> 00:46:07,013
Speaker 2: was guilty and deserved what he got. But as time

707
00:46:07,053 --> 00:46:09,853
Speaker 2: went by and I found out or in the end,

708
00:46:10,133 --> 00:46:13,293
Speaker 2: came to a to a different conclusion. Now I have

709
00:46:13,853 --> 00:46:18,613
Speaker 2: I have family members who have been US military people

710
00:46:19,133 --> 00:46:23,533
Speaker 2: in the States, and so if I said this even today,

711
00:46:23,773 --> 00:46:27,573
Speaker 2: I'd get my head torn off because because they haven't

712
00:46:27,653 --> 00:46:33,453
Speaker 2: changed their minds. But my final word to people who say, well,

713
00:46:33,693 --> 00:46:36,373
Speaker 2: why do you think so, is because he has been

714
00:46:36,533 --> 00:46:43,973
Speaker 2: He has spent his time being behind bars and inhibited

715
00:46:44,013 --> 00:46:46,493
Speaker 2: from from doing anything outside of.

716
00:46:46,813 --> 00:46:49,933
Speaker 3: Four walls for a long long time, so he's paid

717
00:46:49,973 --> 00:46:59,253
Speaker 3: the price anyway. M h you say, well again, I

718
00:46:59,373 --> 00:47:04,413
Speaker 3: mean at the same page in the story, now you

719
00:47:04,493 --> 00:47:09,053
Speaker 3: are I. But it mostly began differently because from the

720
00:47:09,093 --> 00:47:14,373
Speaker 3: start I didn't think he should have interested if for

721
00:47:14,453 --> 00:47:16,813
Speaker 3: another reasons. Firstly, he's an Australian citizen.

722
00:47:18,013 --> 00:47:24,253
Speaker 4: If you and I break an American law, they can

723
00:47:24,413 --> 00:47:26,493
Speaker 4: arrest us if you're in the United States. I don't

724
00:47:26,493 --> 00:47:29,573
Speaker 4: see what their law should apply extraterritorially to us here.

725
00:47:31,133 --> 00:47:34,893
Speaker 4: So that's the first thing to remember, and of course

726
00:47:34,933 --> 00:47:37,053
Speaker 4: that makes it worse when they start talking about treason.

727
00:47:37,133 --> 00:47:40,613
Speaker 4: Well you con'try. You can't be guilty of treason against

728
00:47:41,293 --> 00:47:44,973
Speaker 4: another country. It has to be your country. So I

729
00:47:45,133 --> 00:47:53,333
Speaker 4: think second this convention of releasing information that you have

730
00:47:54,733 --> 00:48:01,373
Speaker 4: that may cause embarrassment discomfort to governments, if you do it.

731
00:48:03,533 --> 00:48:05,733
Speaker 3: Responsibly as media.

732
00:48:06,893 --> 00:48:10,533
Speaker 4: And withhold information should rather than publish it that, in

733
00:48:10,653 --> 00:48:16,133
Speaker 4: your judgment, is going to endanger lives, then that has

734
00:48:16,173 --> 00:48:19,973
Speaker 4: a long and distinguished history, which as far as press

735
00:48:19,973 --> 00:48:22,973
Speaker 4: freedom is concerned, I don't have any problem with the

736
00:48:23,053 --> 00:48:27,813
Speaker 4: media cooperating the authorities not to put lives at risk.

737
00:48:28,933 --> 00:48:31,333
Speaker 4: And so in that article I did say, if in

738
00:48:31,413 --> 00:48:39,333
Speaker 4: fact the disclosures did lead to jeopardizing the lives of soldiers,

739
00:48:40,173 --> 00:48:43,453
Speaker 4: then identify that and prosecute those individually rather than a

740
00:48:43,533 --> 00:48:47,693
Speaker 4: blanket back. And what he was doing was he was

741
00:48:48,373 --> 00:48:54,933
Speaker 4: publishing information that showed illegal and possibly criminal activities by

742
00:48:55,053 --> 00:49:01,533
Speaker 4: our own governments, and that should never be punishable under aurbus.

743
00:49:02,013 --> 00:49:04,533
Speaker 4: If you've got to the rule of law and the

744
00:49:04,613 --> 00:49:08,093
Speaker 4: freedom of the press, I think that is exactly what

745
00:49:08,173 --> 00:49:12,733
Speaker 4: the super production laws are needed for and have evolved

746
00:49:13,173 --> 00:49:16,293
Speaker 4: over time because we recognize that. So the comparison to

747
00:49:16,333 --> 00:49:19,533
Speaker 4: the Pentagon papers, I think is very direct, and that

748
00:49:19,653 --> 00:49:25,053
Speaker 4: example I gave of Australia's agencies snooping on the East

749
00:49:25,093 --> 00:49:29,453
Speaker 4: timor rees is a pretty well we condemned these actions

750
00:49:29,573 --> 00:49:32,493
Speaker 4: when the Chinese and the Russians and the Iranians do it,

751
00:49:33,253 --> 00:49:37,613
Speaker 4: and I think we should condemn the persecution of people

752
00:49:37,693 --> 00:49:40,533
Speaker 4: on those lines as well. So yes, if Asciance disclosed

753
00:49:40,573 --> 00:49:44,653
Speaker 4: anything that led to identifiable threats against people far by

754
00:49:44,733 --> 00:49:46,413
Speaker 4: all means prosecute them.

755
00:49:46,333 --> 00:49:46,533
Speaker 1: For that.

756
00:49:48,093 --> 00:49:51,613
Speaker 4: Is No, I am not aware of a single case

757
00:49:51,613 --> 00:49:55,493
Speaker 4: where it has actually put someone's laugh at risk now

758
00:49:56,973 --> 00:50:00,213
Speaker 4: and for my point is the single best example of

759
00:50:00,253 --> 00:50:03,213
Speaker 4: why I think I have been supporting is that video

760
00:50:03,293 --> 00:50:04,853
Speaker 4: that I refort to. Have you seen that video from

761
00:50:04,933 --> 00:50:09,973
Speaker 4: Baghdad in around two thousand and four where a helicopter gunship.

762
00:50:10,213 --> 00:50:10,973
Speaker 3: Kills some people.

763
00:50:12,773 --> 00:50:15,533
Speaker 2: Yes, yes I did, because I gave the link to

764
00:50:15,653 --> 00:50:18,253
Speaker 2: that that's still up on the let because I used

765
00:50:18,253 --> 00:50:22,533
Speaker 2: to show that in my lecture on human rights in

766
00:50:22,653 --> 00:50:26,493
Speaker 2: my classes, I would show that slip and says, you know,

767
00:50:26,773 --> 00:50:30,013
Speaker 2: this is why the rest of the world reacts so

768
00:50:30,213 --> 00:50:33,053
Speaker 2: cynically to the rhetoric of Western countries.

769
00:50:34,093 --> 00:50:37,333
Speaker 4: They have no credibility in saying they're committed to human rights.

770
00:50:38,613 --> 00:50:40,573
Speaker 4: You're talking to the US military. As I was living

771
00:50:40,653 --> 00:50:44,173
Speaker 4: next to a serving US Air Force kernel when I

772
00:50:44,293 --> 00:50:47,093
Speaker 4: was in Tokyo, and after the pictures of our grave

773
00:50:47,133 --> 00:50:49,573
Speaker 4: and things like that came out, he just came home

774
00:50:49,653 --> 00:50:51,813
Speaker 4: and there says for the first time in his life

775
00:50:51,853 --> 00:50:54,973
Speaker 4: he feels the shame wearing the uniform for the American military.

776
00:50:56,813 --> 00:50:59,453
Speaker 4: So I think you know the same argument we use

777
00:50:59,493 --> 00:51:03,173
Speaker 4: about the police. If you close ranks and you protect

778
00:51:03,253 --> 00:51:09,253
Speaker 4: the one bad apple, you condemn the whole barrel of apples.

779
00:51:11,093 --> 00:51:13,573
Speaker 4: If you're going to protect the honor and reputation of

780
00:51:13,653 --> 00:51:16,853
Speaker 4: the mility as you should, then I think you have

781
00:51:16,973 --> 00:51:20,373
Speaker 4: to call out the UK bad person and punish them.

782
00:51:21,413 --> 00:51:26,533
Speaker 4: H Being in mind that they make difficult choices in

783
00:51:26,613 --> 00:51:30,013
Speaker 4: the fog before, that's one thing. But if they make

784
00:51:30,093 --> 00:51:34,333
Speaker 4: deliberate choices to engage in activities that under own laws

785
00:51:34,493 --> 00:51:36,573
Speaker 4: are prohibited and a criminal may be criminal.

786
00:51:37,733 --> 00:51:41,253
Speaker 3: It goes back to how do you accept gain a

787
00:51:41,333 --> 00:51:44,933
Speaker 3: function research being funded and then overseas jurisdiction because it's

788
00:51:44,973 --> 00:51:48,453
Speaker 3: banned in your own country. I think it's just as bad.

789
00:51:48,893 --> 00:51:54,413
Speaker 3: So should doctor Faci be in in He should be

790
00:51:54,453 --> 00:51:57,773
Speaker 3: in the dock. I was thinking beyond the dock. He

791
00:51:58,373 --> 00:52:01,373
Speaker 3: he No, he isn't aituled to the new process. Oh sure,

792
00:52:01,573 --> 00:52:04,413
Speaker 3: but I'm not sure. But I didn't mean. I didn't

793
00:52:07,373 --> 00:52:10,733
Speaker 3: that would escape proceed but I won't procedure to take Well.

794
00:52:10,653 --> 00:52:11,973
Speaker 4: That's what I mean. He should be in the dog.

795
00:52:12,333 --> 00:52:13,813
Speaker 4: He should be charged and he should be made to

796
00:52:13,893 --> 00:52:14,333
Speaker 4: answer for that.

797
00:52:15,213 --> 00:52:16,893
Speaker 3: And he's and he's not alone either.

798
00:52:17,493 --> 00:52:20,133
Speaker 2: Look, if I may, if I may, there's a couple

799
00:52:20,173 --> 00:52:22,373
Speaker 2: of other a couple of other areas that I would

800
00:52:22,453 --> 00:52:24,333
Speaker 2: like to touch with you last last time.

801
00:52:25,053 --> 00:52:26,733
Speaker 3: Just let me just turn the back on you.

802
00:52:27,213 --> 00:52:31,613
Speaker 4: So if if, if Faulty is approving that, but the

803
00:52:31,733 --> 00:52:36,493
Speaker 4: money comes from Defense Department because they're engaged in the

804
00:52:36,653 --> 00:52:41,453
Speaker 4: effort to develop defensive defenses against use of biological weapons.

805
00:52:42,693 --> 00:52:44,533
Speaker 4: Do we see someone who releases that then is a

806
00:52:44,573 --> 00:52:47,213
Speaker 4: criminal and should be charged. I mean it's the same

807
00:52:47,333 --> 00:52:51,613
Speaker 4: arguments some stage. If activities are being done that are illegal,

808
00:52:52,133 --> 00:52:54,933
Speaker 4: and they're burning done by our side, then we do

809
00:52:55,253 --> 00:52:57,813
Speaker 4: need mechanisms to find out about that, And I don't

810
00:52:57,853 --> 00:53:02,133
Speaker 4: think we should persecute in this case people release that information.

811
00:53:02,533 --> 00:53:07,573
Speaker 3: Well, no, I'd agree with that. Whistleblowers generally serve, serve

812
00:53:07,773 --> 00:53:10,853
Speaker 3: them are doing public service generally.

813
00:53:10,973 --> 00:53:13,533
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I do I do maintain that other thing.

814
00:53:14,173 --> 00:53:17,093
Speaker 4: If in fact some of that information did cause identifiable

815
00:53:17,133 --> 00:53:19,093
Speaker 4: harm to individuals, then go after him.

816
00:53:19,093 --> 00:53:21,293
Speaker 3: That's fine, I have no problem. That good.

817
00:53:21,773 --> 00:53:24,973
Speaker 2: The events that took place place last Friday, in the

818
00:53:25,013 --> 00:53:29,613
Speaker 2: middle of all the other stuff with this global outage,

819
00:53:31,693 --> 00:53:34,253
Speaker 2: the crowd strike global outage.

820
00:53:34,253 --> 00:53:38,133
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the anti virus software company say that again,

821
00:53:39,333 --> 00:53:43,493
Speaker 4: the anti virus software company. Ah, it shows the dangers

822
00:53:43,573 --> 00:53:47,013
Speaker 4: of centralized reliance on technology.

823
00:53:47,373 --> 00:53:49,253
Speaker 2: Well, that's exactly my point. It was the first thing

824
00:53:49,293 --> 00:53:52,053
Speaker 2: that I said to to this is a producer, to

825
00:53:52,133 --> 00:53:56,373
Speaker 2: my wife that there's an there's there's a prime example.

826
00:53:56,373 --> 00:53:57,893
Speaker 2: It's the best one I've seen for a long time,

827
00:53:58,053 --> 00:54:04,053
Speaker 2: prime example of why cash should be maintained forever, well

828
00:54:04,133 --> 00:54:07,733
Speaker 2: certainly for the foreseeable future. And the replacement of cash

829
00:54:07,773 --> 00:54:10,493
Speaker 2: to withdraw of cash, in my understanding, Tell me if

830
00:54:10,493 --> 00:54:12,613
Speaker 2: I'm wrong, because if somebody only told me this a

831
00:54:12,693 --> 00:54:16,133
Speaker 2: couple of days ago from from Sydney, is that they've

832
00:54:16,133 --> 00:54:18,973
Speaker 2: announced the government's announced that cash will be gone in two.

833
00:54:18,973 --> 00:54:24,093
Speaker 3: Years in Australia. I haven't seen that. Yeah. Well, I've

834
00:54:24,093 --> 00:54:25,373
Speaker 3: got I've got I've got.

835
00:54:25,333 --> 00:54:29,213
Speaker 2: A feeling this particular person's got it mixed up just slightly,

836
00:54:29,333 --> 00:54:31,933
Speaker 2: but they're certainly heading everywhere.

837
00:54:31,493 --> 00:54:34,213
Speaker 4: Not necessarily if you're having that way, and I'm in

838
00:54:34,533 --> 00:54:38,093
Speaker 4: the past couple of years, I've constantly begun to use

839
00:54:38,173 --> 00:54:42,053
Speaker 4: cash more and more. Well, I think you're just putting

840
00:54:42,093 --> 00:54:46,893
Speaker 4: ourselves at risk of complete social credit system and government control.

841
00:54:47,973 --> 00:54:51,293
Speaker 3: And that's the collusion with a big tech that's that's

842
00:54:51,373 --> 00:54:53,653
Speaker 3: the that's the end of the game, exactly.

843
00:54:54,413 --> 00:54:57,893
Speaker 4: So so I am actually using cash a lot more now,

844
00:54:58,733 --> 00:55:01,853
Speaker 4: drawing cash and using it, so obviously for a lot

845
00:55:01,933 --> 00:55:04,253
Speaker 4: of things you can't. But yeah, central bank. And on

846
00:55:04,373 --> 00:55:06,813
Speaker 4: that Friday, by the way, that's when I came back,

847
00:55:06,853 --> 00:55:11,653
Speaker 4: I was lucky that I escape, that I have traveled.

848
00:55:11,373 --> 00:55:13,093
Speaker 2: I have I have a friend who will be listening

849
00:55:13,173 --> 00:55:16,773
Speaker 2: to this at some stage who was caught caught in

850
00:55:16,933 --> 00:55:23,053
Speaker 2: Los Angeles with his son, young son, and I'm yet

851
00:55:23,093 --> 00:55:25,093
Speaker 2: to get the picture, but I believe he's got a

852
00:55:25,653 --> 00:55:31,133
Speaker 2: good story to tell. So the danger of centralized digital

853
00:55:31,453 --> 00:55:36,773
Speaker 2: wealth central bank digital currencies is there. Is there the

854
00:55:36,853 --> 00:55:41,373
Speaker 2: possibility in your mind that they could exist in conjunction

855
00:55:41,813 --> 00:55:44,853
Speaker 2: with the current system, or do you think that the

856
00:55:45,013 --> 00:55:50,893
Speaker 2: introduction of cbdc's will just provide leverage for for removing cash.

857
00:55:52,773 --> 00:55:53,853
Speaker 3: We've seen two things.

858
00:55:56,293 --> 00:56:01,853
Speaker 4: One is governments of different political persuasions have discovered that

859
00:56:01,973 --> 00:56:02,733
Speaker 4: they share.

860
00:56:02,573 --> 00:56:03,973
Speaker 3: A common interest.

861
00:56:05,373 --> 00:56:09,373
Speaker 4: In gaining hold over technology that allows them to exit

862
00:56:09,493 --> 00:56:11,453
Speaker 4: more and more control over their own citizens.

863
00:56:12,293 --> 00:56:13,013
Speaker 3: And so.

864
00:56:14,893 --> 00:56:18,893
Speaker 4: Justin Todau in Canada had no compunction in the banking

865
00:56:19,373 --> 00:56:24,933
Speaker 4: and the financializing people associated with the Freedom Convoy of truckers,

866
00:56:25,213 --> 00:56:27,373
Speaker 4: and that included people who were giving ten dollars twenty

867
00:56:27,413 --> 00:56:31,973
Speaker 4: dollars more donations as well and freezing their assets. Now

868
00:56:32,413 --> 00:56:35,093
Speaker 4: mister Mordy looks at that and he says, what a

869
00:56:35,173 --> 00:56:39,453
Speaker 4: good idea. And weeks before the Indian election, the opposition

870
00:56:39,573 --> 00:56:44,533
Speaker 4: Congress party has its assets frozen under some alleged violation

871
00:56:44,653 --> 00:56:49,813
Speaker 4: of some laws or that he sees the weaponization of

872
00:56:49,893 --> 00:56:52,853
Speaker 4: the justice system and jailing of opponents in the United States,

873
00:56:52,893 --> 00:56:54,973
Speaker 4: and he says, well, if the world's most powerful democracy

874
00:56:55,013 --> 00:56:57,453
Speaker 4: can do that, so it can be. And I think

875
00:56:57,493 --> 00:57:01,013
Speaker 4: there were three incumbent chief ministers at state level who

876
00:57:01,053 --> 00:57:03,373
Speaker 4: were put in jail the head of the general election

877
00:57:03,893 --> 00:57:09,133
Speaker 4: and their ability to campaign was impeded. That's one side

878
00:57:09,173 --> 00:57:14,853
Speaker 4: that governments have a shared interest in expanding their power

879
00:57:14,933 --> 00:57:19,133
Speaker 4: to control their citizens' activities and monitor the citizens' citizens

880
00:57:19,173 --> 00:57:22,413
Speaker 4: financial transactions, and they're moving in that direction.

881
00:57:22,973 --> 00:57:23,893
Speaker 3: So there's that site.

882
00:57:24,373 --> 00:57:29,253
Speaker 4: The second thing is the elements of the private sector

883
00:57:30,053 --> 00:57:33,413
Speaker 4: discovering they have a shared interest with governments being able

884
00:57:33,773 --> 00:57:37,733
Speaker 4: to monitor and surveil what we are doing in terms

885
00:57:37,773 --> 00:57:42,533
Speaker 4: of what by very by, and being able to nudge

886
00:57:42,853 --> 00:57:49,533
Speaker 4: our preferences towards particular products or to towards particular ideologies

887
00:57:49,693 --> 00:57:55,653
Speaker 4: and political parties. So that double centralization is all at

888
00:57:55,693 --> 00:58:00,253
Speaker 4: the expense of our liberties and freedom of action and

889
00:58:01,173 --> 00:58:05,293
Speaker 4: freedom from being monitored and put under surveillance, whether it's

890
00:58:05,373 --> 00:58:09,453
Speaker 4: for our commercial activities, purchasing history, or where there it's

891
00:58:09,533 --> 00:58:14,173
Speaker 4: for our political leanings and tendencies. So yes, it goes

892
00:58:14,213 --> 00:58:16,813
Speaker 4: back into that broader theme that varies me more and

893
00:58:16,933 --> 00:58:24,613
Speaker 4: more that we are moving into a world of big Brother,

894
00:58:26,053 --> 00:58:30,173
Speaker 4: in which big Brother is a combined national and global behemoth.

895
00:58:31,613 --> 00:58:33,413
Speaker 4: And you see that with the legacy media in terms

896
00:58:33,453 --> 00:58:36,653
Speaker 4: of news God and this and that and then garm

897
00:58:36,773 --> 00:58:40,173
Speaker 4: whatever the thing calls for, where where they're trying to

898
00:58:41,893 --> 00:58:47,213
Speaker 4: remove from the public public sphere essentially people whose values

899
00:58:47,693 --> 00:58:52,293
Speaker 4: or opinions they disagree with it MM, and that's happening

900
00:58:52,373 --> 00:58:53,653
Speaker 4: more and more, so it does worry me.

901
00:58:54,413 --> 00:58:58,173
Speaker 3: Well, is happening in Australia. Yes, we have the.

902
00:58:58,333 --> 00:59:03,973
Speaker 4: Safety Commissioner whose goes after the opinions of people. And

903
00:59:04,133 --> 00:59:07,533
Speaker 4: do you remember this, she's an American important she took

904
00:59:07,573 --> 00:59:10,853
Speaker 4: on a fight with the OWSK on some things, so

905
00:59:11,013 --> 00:59:14,533
Speaker 4: there you know. This was this. She asked a couple

906
00:59:14,613 --> 00:59:18,533
Speaker 4: of things. One was the famous one where she wanted

907
00:59:20,213 --> 00:59:26,933
Speaker 4: footage of the stabbing of the archbishop. Yes, taken off

908
00:59:27,293 --> 00:59:31,253
Speaker 4: not just in Australia but globally. So the e Safety Commissioner,

909
00:59:31,293 --> 00:59:35,933
Speaker 4: one individual with her staff, asserted the right to decide

910
00:59:37,813 --> 00:59:41,013
Speaker 4: what other people from in other countries can and cannot watch.

911
00:59:41,973 --> 00:59:44,613
Speaker 4: And it wasn't the case of misinformation because this was

912
00:59:44,613 --> 00:59:49,053
Speaker 4: an actual event that had happened. She was saying, well,

913
00:59:49,133 --> 00:59:51,413
Speaker 4: this may not be wasted. At the same time, other

914
00:59:51,493 --> 00:59:54,053
Speaker 4: things that were worse from a physical violence point of

915
00:59:54,133 --> 00:59:55,493
Speaker 4: view was still available.

916
00:59:55,533 --> 00:59:55,973
Speaker 3: So there's that.

917
00:59:56,413 --> 00:59:59,213
Speaker 4: But there's something else on in respect of gender ideology

918
00:59:59,293 --> 01:00:02,333
Speaker 4: that she was trying the same thing in Australia. But

919
01:00:02,453 --> 01:00:06,093
Speaker 4: it's the same phenomenal that that bureaucrats and technocrats decide

920
01:00:06,933 --> 01:00:09,013
Speaker 4: what we should think, what we should say, what we

921
01:00:09,053 --> 01:00:12,253
Speaker 4: should believe in what we should buy, who should produce what,

922
01:00:13,173 --> 01:00:17,373
Speaker 4: under what ours. So it's that assertion of government control

923
01:00:17,453 --> 01:00:21,293
Speaker 4: over all aspects of our daily activities that we witnessed

924
01:00:21,373 --> 01:00:21,973
Speaker 4: under COVID.

925
01:00:23,533 --> 01:00:25,613
Speaker 3: Now the effort has.

926
01:00:25,533 --> 01:00:29,493
Speaker 4: Been yet to institutionalize and embed that as a permanent feature,

927
01:00:29,773 --> 01:00:31,693
Speaker 4: which is exactly what we were saying at the time.

928
01:00:32,053 --> 01:00:35,613
Speaker 4: But if you comply now, don't be surprised you start

929
01:00:35,693 --> 01:00:37,973
Speaker 4: to expand and repeat this in other sectors.

930
01:00:38,133 --> 01:00:42,373
Speaker 2: Yes, and there's still still much to be said about

931
01:00:42,373 --> 01:00:43,093
Speaker 2: the COVID era.

932
01:00:44,013 --> 01:00:45,533
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's the same.

933
01:00:45,573 --> 01:00:48,333
Speaker 4: You know, why why should the government decide that we

934
01:00:48,453 --> 01:00:49,973
Speaker 4: have to switch to electric vehicles?

935
01:00:51,333 --> 01:00:55,053
Speaker 2: I'll just say to the planet, Yeah, sure, but surely

936
01:00:55,173 --> 01:00:55,613
Speaker 2: you know that.

937
01:00:58,213 --> 01:01:01,053
Speaker 4: But you know, when different forms of transport come along

938
01:01:01,093 --> 01:01:04,653
Speaker 4: and they have obvious benefits and conveniences and advantages, people switch.

939
01:01:05,453 --> 01:01:06,373
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's started.

940
01:01:06,693 --> 01:01:09,093
Speaker 4: The government's speaking winners with the to you know, you

941
01:01:09,613 --> 01:01:12,333
Speaker 4: you have to use renewables, you have to do electric vehicles.

942
01:01:13,893 --> 01:01:18,093
Speaker 4: And again the calculations that they don't they don't add

943
01:01:18,173 --> 01:01:20,373
Speaker 4: up when you actually go through it as well. So

944
01:01:20,533 --> 01:01:23,973
Speaker 4: governments are no better at picking winners today. In fact,

945
01:01:24,013 --> 01:01:26,973
Speaker 4: they might be worse than they will have historically been, well, you've.

946
01:01:26,853 --> 01:01:31,493
Speaker 2: Got you've got media companies still refusing to entertain any

947
01:01:31,733 --> 01:01:36,173
Speaker 2: alternative viewpoint when it comes to matters climate and saving

948
01:01:36,213 --> 01:01:39,773
Speaker 2: the planet, et cetera. And we've got them. We've got

949
01:01:39,813 --> 01:01:44,453
Speaker 2: them here, and they are disgrace because of it. But

950
01:01:44,813 --> 01:01:50,253
Speaker 2: I'm hoping that sooner or later something will happen. There's

951
01:01:50,293 --> 01:01:52,413
Speaker 2: one other thing I wanted to mention with regard with

952
01:01:52,533 --> 01:01:56,613
Speaker 2: regard to privacy, and that it is directly linked to

953
01:01:56,733 --> 01:02:01,773
Speaker 2: cb DCS et cetera. Privacy we got. We have people

954
01:02:01,973 --> 01:02:08,133
Speaker 2: in positions of influence, including one retired prime minister in

955
01:02:08,173 --> 01:02:12,933
Speaker 2: the country, who have said any time that something comes

956
01:02:13,013 --> 01:02:17,813
Speaker 2: up about privacy and people not knowing what you're doing, etc.

957
01:02:18,773 --> 01:02:20,293
Speaker 2: Has said, well, have you got nothing to hide, You've

958
01:02:20,293 --> 01:02:22,293
Speaker 2: got nothing to fear. Now, I know how old that

959
01:02:22,613 --> 01:02:25,493
Speaker 2: that saying is, and I have the excital contempt for it.

960
01:02:26,293 --> 01:02:30,173
Speaker 2: But the question is why are they I've had nobody

961
01:02:30,213 --> 01:02:32,973
Speaker 2: can explain this to me yet. Why are there intelligent

962
01:02:33,093 --> 01:02:36,333
Speaker 2: people that simply can't see the light.

963
01:02:37,573 --> 01:02:44,173
Speaker 4: Well, that's a deep philosophical question. I think the short answer,

964
01:02:45,533 --> 01:02:50,173
Speaker 4: my short answer would be that the share of the population.

965
01:02:50,413 --> 01:02:52,613
Speaker 4: So you're not talking to absolute numbers, but the proportion

966
01:02:52,773 --> 01:03:00,013
Speaker 4: of the population that habitually engages in independent critical thinking

967
01:03:00,933 --> 01:03:06,453
Speaker 4: has declined quite dramatically and reflects the switch from education

968
01:03:06,733 --> 01:03:11,453
Speaker 4: to indoctrination from early childhood all the way through school

969
01:03:11,493 --> 01:03:17,333
Speaker 4: and university and spread into all sectors of society. Who

970
01:03:17,373 --> 01:03:22,773
Speaker 4: would have thought thirty forty years ago that big corporates

971
01:03:22,933 --> 01:03:26,893
Speaker 4: would think they have any business telling us what we

972
01:03:26,933 --> 01:03:30,973
Speaker 4: should think, or what values we should adopt, or what

973
01:03:31,373 --> 01:03:36,573
Speaker 4: positions on controversial social and or contested not controversial, necessarily

974
01:03:36,573 --> 01:03:42,693
Speaker 4: contested social, political, economic, and even scientific issues, that they

975
01:03:42,773 --> 01:03:46,573
Speaker 4: have some comparative advantage in knowing what the quote unquote

976
01:03:46,573 --> 01:03:49,253
Speaker 4: truth is the truth is, and telling us their views

977
01:03:49,493 --> 01:03:54,653
Speaker 4: and we should do what they tell us. And again

978
01:03:54,693 --> 01:03:56,693
Speaker 4: on that there're certainly in Australia there has been a

979
01:03:56,733 --> 01:04:00,813
Speaker 4: pushback and a recognition by the media boardrooms that maybe

980
01:04:00,853 --> 01:04:05,213
Speaker 4: they should pull back from this because they've discovered that

981
01:04:06,053 --> 01:04:12,213
Speaker 4: a majority of even their employees, shareholders, and certainly their

982
01:04:12,293 --> 01:04:18,653
Speaker 4: consumers do not align with their views and it actually

983
01:04:18,693 --> 01:04:22,533
Speaker 4: affects the bottom line. And when I go into a supermarket,

984
01:04:22,653 --> 01:04:28,173
Speaker 4: I want fresh produce and quality products at most affordable prices.

985
01:04:28,213 --> 01:04:32,253
Speaker 4: I have absolutely no interest in learning about what the

986
01:04:32,373 --> 01:04:35,453
Speaker 4: view of their CEO might be in relation to any

987
01:04:35,533 --> 01:04:40,493
Speaker 4: social low political issue. Same with celebrities. And yet they

988
01:04:40,613 --> 01:04:46,013
Speaker 4: think that the echo chamber of the elites in the

989
01:04:46,053 --> 01:04:52,293
Speaker 4: different sectors of life has an position of virtuous enlightenment

990
01:04:52,413 --> 01:04:54,653
Speaker 4: that everyone else should be made to follow.

991
01:04:55,293 --> 01:04:57,813
Speaker 3: Well, you know you want to do that, go ahead

992
01:04:57,813 --> 01:04:58,133
Speaker 3: and do it.

993
01:04:58,413 --> 01:05:01,493
Speaker 2: So the World Economic Forum is at what point of

994
01:05:01,533 --> 01:05:03,293
Speaker 2: its existence and influence.

995
01:05:02,933 --> 01:05:11,613
Speaker 3: Now hopefully terminal? I might become a believer in God.

996
01:05:11,693 --> 01:05:14,533
Speaker 2: Yet ah, I read, I read what you had to

997
01:05:14,573 --> 01:05:18,253
Speaker 2: say about religion. I was I was intrigued. But that

998
01:05:18,333 --> 01:05:21,093
Speaker 2: could be true that I respect other people's religion. Yes

999
01:05:21,173 --> 01:05:24,053
Speaker 2: you do, yeah, and that's of all fits.

1000
01:05:24,093 --> 01:05:28,893
Speaker 4: But I have problems myself and that left religion a

1001
01:05:28,973 --> 01:05:32,773
Speaker 4: long time ago, and no desire to go back. Well,

1002
01:05:32,773 --> 01:05:38,813
Speaker 4: it's a free world, yeap, free will feeble, So I

1003
01:05:38,893 --> 01:05:41,293
Speaker 4: think we can continue with a free society.

1004
01:05:42,373 --> 01:05:44,733
Speaker 2: Just one one other thing that I would like to include.

1005
01:05:45,413 --> 01:05:49,973
Speaker 2: Why leave it out? It's your white guilt, not my

1006
01:05:50,133 --> 01:05:54,413
Speaker 2: white privilege. It's a headline from another of yours. That's

1007
01:05:54,413 --> 01:05:56,573
Speaker 2: a problem. That's the that's a problem, that's right. Yeah,

1008
01:05:56,613 --> 01:05:59,173
Speaker 2: the problem is your white guilt, not my white privilege.

1009
01:05:59,453 --> 01:06:02,773
Speaker 2: But white guilt and colonization two things that go hand

1010
01:06:02,813 --> 01:06:05,133
Speaker 2: in hand at the moment and seem to be motoring

1011
01:06:05,173 --> 01:06:08,733
Speaker 2: along fairly powerfully. Are they both in US strata and

1012
01:06:08,813 --> 01:06:16,133
Speaker 2: New Zealand and the US and Canada? So what's the answer? Well,

1013
01:06:16,173 --> 01:06:23,333
Speaker 2: it's puzzled me obviously. I mean, look, which major country,

1014
01:06:23,533 --> 01:06:26,933
Speaker 2: or which even middland country can you point out to

1015
01:06:27,013 --> 01:06:31,133
Speaker 2: me today whose borders do not reflect the use of force?

1016
01:06:32,533 --> 01:06:34,333
Speaker 3: Perhaps repeatedly in his history.

1017
01:06:35,893 --> 01:06:39,453
Speaker 4: It's been a part of history, and it's been a

1018
01:06:39,493 --> 01:06:41,693
Speaker 4: part of the natural world as well, and I suspect

1019
01:06:41,773 --> 01:06:43,973
Speaker 4: it will stay the case for a long time yet.

1020
01:06:44,933 --> 01:06:47,613
Speaker 4: So if you're going to go back to the equivalent

1021
01:06:47,693 --> 01:06:52,173
Speaker 4: of trying to trace the original sin, we're going to

1022
01:06:52,653 --> 01:06:56,373
Speaker 4: lead to the most massive upheaval we've ever known, and

1023
01:06:56,453 --> 01:07:00,773
Speaker 4: volatility and fighting all over again. So how do we

1024
01:07:00,973 --> 01:07:06,373
Speaker 4: reconcile existing borders with present day values? Well, we don't

1025
01:07:06,413 --> 01:07:11,533
Speaker 4: do that by reversing history. One second. I think the

1026
01:07:11,693 --> 01:07:18,533
Speaker 4: net contribution of Western civilizations to global human welfare on

1027
01:07:18,813 --> 01:07:26,293
Speaker 4: prosperity and education and longevity has been greater than that

1028
01:07:27,013 --> 01:07:32,573
Speaker 4: of any other civilization and culture. And that's not such

1029
01:07:32,613 --> 01:07:36,973
Speaker 4: a hard thing to document in terms of the aspirations

1030
01:07:37,053 --> 01:07:39,333
Speaker 4: that pretty much people so all over the world now

1031
01:07:39,413 --> 01:07:43,933
Speaker 4: have two emulating the lifestyles and the benefits, the material

1032
01:07:43,973 --> 01:07:49,973
Speaker 4: benefits and the intellectual benefits of that. And even with

1033
01:07:50,173 --> 01:07:54,613
Speaker 4: respect to slavery, for example, the slave trade, again I

1034
01:07:54,693 --> 01:07:59,133
Speaker 4: think it's not that difficult to document that. Probably the

1035
01:07:59,213 --> 01:08:02,853
Speaker 4: biggest contribution to ending the slave trade, and some of

1036
01:08:02,893 --> 01:08:05,853
Speaker 4: the highest costs that were made that were paid in

1037
01:08:05,973 --> 01:08:13,373
Speaker 4: that effort that came from Britain, and the biggest guilty

1038
01:08:13,533 --> 01:08:17,773
Speaker 4: parties in the origins and volume of the slave trade

1039
01:08:18,413 --> 01:08:24,893
Speaker 4: would include the Arabs and the Africans. So why this

1040
01:08:25,493 --> 01:08:30,573
Speaker 4: focus on the sense of guilt And if that sense

1041
01:08:30,613 --> 01:08:32,253
Speaker 4: of guilt was real, and I'm sure I've said this,

1042
01:08:32,533 --> 01:08:34,653
Speaker 4: if not to you then to some other interview in

1043
01:08:34,733 --> 01:08:39,413
Speaker 4: New Zealand, if that sense of guilt was real, I mean,

1044
01:08:39,413 --> 01:08:43,693
Speaker 4: if that sense of moral censure was real and genuine, authentic,

1045
01:08:45,493 --> 01:08:50,173
Speaker 4: then huge numbers of people from the non Western countries

1046
01:08:51,133 --> 01:08:53,773
Speaker 4: would not still be fighting to get into the West.

1047
01:08:55,333 --> 01:08:59,613
Speaker 4: And it seems to be a confected outrage at the

1048
01:08:59,773 --> 01:09:02,613
Speaker 4: historical role that some Western countries have had to play.

1049
01:09:02,853 --> 01:09:05,853
Speaker 4: I don't think anyone denies that. I'm all in favor

1050
01:09:05,893 --> 01:09:08,853
Speaker 4: of having an honest accounting in our history books, but

1051
01:09:08,973 --> 01:09:11,453
Speaker 4: the honesty can'ting goes both ways as well. I think

1052
01:09:11,493 --> 01:09:14,693
Speaker 4: there were benefits that were brought to millions of people

1053
01:09:14,693 --> 01:09:18,093
Speaker 4: around the world by Western civilization, and there were costs

1054
01:09:18,093 --> 01:09:23,453
Speaker 4: steps were brought and in some cases resulting in genocide

1055
01:09:23,493 --> 01:09:27,373
Speaker 4: or neo genocide of indigenous populations, But that is part

1056
01:09:27,413 --> 01:09:29,533
Speaker 4: of history, and I think we should study history and

1057
01:09:29,653 --> 01:09:34,613
Speaker 4: learn from that, but not engaged in an endless self vagulation,

1058
01:09:35,893 --> 01:09:40,213
Speaker 4: which is unmerited and self destructive. I think in one

1059
01:09:40,213 --> 01:09:43,973
Speaker 4: of the articles that they'd say it's like Western societies

1060
01:09:44,013 --> 01:09:48,253
Speaker 4: are bent on feeding the fuel into the fire that

1061
01:09:48,493 --> 01:09:53,973
Speaker 4: is consuming them, which I find very puzzling. So the

1062
01:09:54,093 --> 01:09:56,813
Speaker 4: net contribution of Western civilization I think has been positive

1063
01:09:56,893 --> 01:10:01,493
Speaker 4: rather than negative. Other countries have also had stayed pasts,

1064
01:10:02,973 --> 01:10:05,893
Speaker 4: and we acknowledge that we don't necessarily condone that. We

1065
01:10:05,933 --> 01:10:10,053
Speaker 4: certainly don't want to have that society today, but I

1066
01:10:10,173 --> 01:10:16,173
Speaker 4: think we should just insist on treating everyone who's lawfully

1067
01:10:16,293 --> 01:10:19,293
Speaker 4: in our country and is a citizen the same, without

1068
01:10:19,333 --> 01:10:22,853
Speaker 4: distinction on grounds of race or religion or whatever else.

1069
01:10:23,533 --> 01:10:27,573
Speaker 4: Inherited treat so I don't understand the white guilt part,

1070
01:10:28,573 --> 01:10:30,373
Speaker 4: and if it does exist, I don't see why I,

1071
01:10:30,813 --> 01:10:32,933
Speaker 4: who have not been part of that, should be made

1072
01:10:32,973 --> 01:10:35,653
Speaker 4: to suffer for that either. So it goes back to

1073
01:10:35,693 --> 01:10:40,413
Speaker 4: where we started off and the general attitude almost the

1074
01:10:40,493 --> 01:10:44,013
Speaker 4: overseas Indians as well, that what we want is to

1075
01:10:44,133 --> 01:10:48,293
Speaker 4: be left alone and given the same opportunities. And maybe

1076
01:10:48,293 --> 01:10:51,213
Speaker 4: if we should end that it's equality of opportunity not

1077
01:10:51,333 --> 01:10:54,613
Speaker 4: equality of outcomes. So I still prefer the phrase equality

1078
01:10:54,653 --> 01:10:59,173
Speaker 4: of opportunity rather than equity because that tries to look

1079
01:10:59,213 --> 01:11:01,613
Speaker 4: at it in terms of outcomes. And you've seen that,

1080
01:11:03,453 --> 01:11:06,733
Speaker 4: you know the decision from the US Supreme Court late

1081
01:11:06,813 --> 01:11:12,173
Speaker 4: last year whenever it was on the Harvard admissions case.

1082
01:11:12,853 --> 01:11:19,333
Speaker 2: Japanese none of the Asian Americans who would have taken

1083
01:11:19,413 --> 01:11:22,373
Speaker 2: the case too in the court system, But weren't there

1084
01:11:22,453 --> 01:11:25,853
Speaker 2: weren't there a lot of Japanese students who were involved

1085
01:11:25,853 --> 01:11:29,373
Speaker 2: in it. No, it was Chinese and Indians more than Japanese.

1086
01:11:30,693 --> 01:11:37,213
Speaker 4: It's but the Asian Americans were amongst the highest academic

1087
01:11:37,333 --> 01:11:41,333
Speaker 4: scores and the lowest rates of admission. I think you

1088
01:11:41,493 --> 01:11:45,293
Speaker 4: needed to be if an Asian American, it's you needed

1089
01:11:45,373 --> 01:11:48,933
Speaker 4: to be in the ninetieth persentile, and your chances were

1090
01:11:48,933 --> 01:11:52,533
Speaker 4: still lower than a black in the fortieth persentile, a

1091
01:11:54,293 --> 01:11:58,093
Speaker 4: Hispanic in the sixtieth persentile, and a white in the

1092
01:11:58,173 --> 01:12:02,093
Speaker 4: eightieth personile. So the four groups, the Asian Americans had

1093
01:12:02,133 --> 01:12:05,933
Speaker 4: to be the most competitive, and in medical schools, in

1094
01:12:06,533 --> 01:12:10,053
Speaker 4: the different studies. Short this is the American Enterprise Institute.

1095
01:12:10,053 --> 01:12:17,533
Speaker 4: I think for medical schools, you on the same score,

1096
01:12:18,173 --> 01:12:21,133
Speaker 4: a Black American had more than ten times a prospect

1097
01:12:21,173 --> 01:12:24,213
Speaker 4: of getting admitted to medical school compared to an Asian American.

1098
01:12:24,733 --> 01:12:27,813
Speaker 4: And again then it was the Hispanics the second most

1099
01:12:27,853 --> 01:12:30,573
Speaker 4: advantage and the words third, and the Asians were at

1100
01:12:30,613 --> 01:12:31,013
Speaker 4: the bottom.

1101
01:12:31,893 --> 01:12:35,213
Speaker 3: So that was what they had taken it. It's very

1102
01:12:35,253 --> 01:12:36,973
Speaker 3: easy to demonstrate statistically.

1103
01:12:37,613 --> 01:12:41,213
Speaker 4: And finally the Supreme Court said racial criteria were illegal.

1104
01:12:42,253 --> 01:12:43,813
Speaker 3: So it goes back to the same thing.

1105
01:12:44,213 --> 01:12:47,613
Speaker 4: You believe in merit, you believe in the quality of opportunity,

1106
01:12:48,773 --> 01:12:51,653
Speaker 4: and you believe in rewarding hard work. Then you get

1107
01:12:51,693 --> 01:12:55,173
Speaker 4: a different student profile in universities and med schools and stuff.

1108
01:12:55,893 --> 01:12:59,053
Speaker 4: Then if you start talking about equity and diversity, and

1109
01:12:59,173 --> 01:13:02,093
Speaker 4: by the way, we've seen going back to the pushback argument,

1110
01:13:03,053 --> 01:13:05,653
Speaker 4: a lot of companies are now starting to dismantle the

1111
01:13:05,733 --> 01:13:07,893
Speaker 4: DEI elements of their.

1112
01:13:08,613 --> 01:13:13,173
Speaker 3: Bureaucracy, and so they should yep. And well you see that,

1113
01:13:13,413 --> 01:13:14,373
Speaker 3: you saw the results of that.

1114
01:13:15,453 --> 01:13:18,213
Speaker 4: Well, now there are allegations that that is partly to

1115
01:13:18,333 --> 01:13:22,893
Speaker 4: explain the security failures with regard to the assassination attent

1116
01:13:23,093 --> 01:13:26,253
Speaker 4: on Trump. Yes, with the Secret Service being interested in

1117
01:13:27,213 --> 01:13:33,613
Speaker 4: these efforts more than in basic competence. And you'd think, well,

1118
01:13:33,733 --> 01:13:37,693
Speaker 4: it shouldn't affect universities, until suddenly it I mean the

1119
01:13:38,213 --> 01:13:41,933
Speaker 4: consequence of the of that agenda, Until suddenly it did.

1120
01:13:42,653 --> 01:13:46,133
Speaker 4: When the three famous university presidents could not answer a

1121
01:13:46,213 --> 01:13:53,053
Speaker 4: basic question under congressional testimony as to where the calls

1122
01:13:53,133 --> 01:13:57,853
Speaker 4: to engage in expl ethnic aspulsion of Jews or whatever

1123
01:13:58,813 --> 01:14:02,773
Speaker 4: genesida Jews was to be prohibited. You remember how they

1124
01:14:02,813 --> 01:14:06,693
Speaker 4: were completely unable to answer the simple moral question. Yes,

1125
01:14:07,373 --> 01:14:11,013
Speaker 4: comes back and happened to be women presidents that and

1126
01:14:11,573 --> 01:14:15,373
Speaker 4: the Harvard one was clearly a diversity higher, clearly or

1127
01:14:15,373 --> 01:14:17,733
Speaker 4: what diversity higher?

1128
01:14:18,093 --> 01:14:20,333
Speaker 3: I think for that phrase.

1129
01:14:21,013 --> 01:14:24,373
Speaker 4: That phrase has become a presorative term now and they're

1130
01:14:24,373 --> 01:14:26,933
Speaker 4: saying that the chief of the Secret Service is a

1131
01:14:26,973 --> 01:14:27,773
Speaker 4: diversity higher.

1132
01:14:27,813 --> 01:14:30,373
Speaker 2: And you see the results. Well, it was there was

1133
01:14:30,653 --> 01:14:33,733
Speaker 2: there was she mean not survive tomorrow's hearing it in

1134
01:14:33,813 --> 01:14:37,013
Speaker 2: congress on Sorry, there was. There was a similar similar

1135
01:14:37,293 --> 01:14:41,653
Speaker 2: lineup and they were all males, roughly around the same time.

1136
01:14:41,933 --> 01:14:45,973
Speaker 2: Asked us being asked in in the in the house

1137
01:14:47,013 --> 01:14:51,373
Speaker 2: inquiry how much how much CO two was there in

1138
01:14:51,493 --> 01:14:56,213
Speaker 2: the atmosphere? Few of them, none of them knew, not one.

1139
01:14:57,293 --> 01:15:00,013
Speaker 2: I had no idea and.

1140
01:15:02,213 --> 01:15:03,373
Speaker 3: It was hilarious.

1141
01:15:03,613 --> 01:15:07,853
Speaker 2: We started this long but excellent conversation with a quick

1142
01:15:07,933 --> 01:15:10,813
Speaker 2: mention of your book our enemy the government.

1143
01:15:11,573 --> 01:15:12,573
Speaker 3: Let's conclude on it.

1144
01:15:13,453 --> 01:15:19,933
Speaker 2: Why the title, Well, if you have a commitment to

1145
01:15:20,013 --> 01:15:27,813
Speaker 2: human rights, you face attention. The worst breaches of human

1146
01:15:27,893 --> 01:15:32,453
Speaker 2: rights and violations of human rights occur in conditions of anarchy,

1147
01:15:33,933 --> 01:15:37,613
Speaker 2: and you need the machinery of government and the legislative,

1148
01:15:37,733 --> 01:15:41,533
Speaker 2: executive and judicial frameworks to enforce.

1149
01:15:42,813 --> 01:15:48,773
Speaker 4: Human rights laws and values, to legislate and enforce them.

1150
01:15:49,733 --> 01:15:53,133
Speaker 4: At the same time, if you do have stable, effective

1151
01:15:53,253 --> 01:15:57,373
Speaker 4: function government, then potentially the biggest threat to your human

1152
01:15:57,453 --> 01:16:02,373
Speaker 4: rights comes from governments. And these are the powerful entrance

1153
01:16:02,453 --> 01:16:07,973
Speaker 4: toutalitarian states with their government machinery. In countries like Nazi Germany,

1154
01:16:08,333 --> 01:16:14,413
Speaker 4: COMMUNSS China, like com Soviet Union as it was, so

1155
01:16:14,573 --> 01:16:17,133
Speaker 4: that tension is an ongoing.

1156
01:16:16,933 --> 01:16:19,373
Speaker 3: Reality and we need to navigate that.

1157
01:16:20,533 --> 01:16:23,293
Speaker 4: And part many parts of what we've been talking about

1158
01:16:23,333 --> 01:16:26,893
Speaker 4: for the past hour or whatever it has been, has

1159
01:16:26,973 --> 01:16:29,373
Speaker 4: been in relation to the growing threats to our freedom

1160
01:16:29,413 --> 01:16:35,813
Speaker 4: and civiluities that comes from over centralization and over expansion

1161
01:16:36,613 --> 01:16:40,893
Speaker 4: of the state into spheres of social and personal activity

1162
01:16:41,893 --> 01:16:45,933
Speaker 4: that hitherto were separate and considered sacrosanct and none of

1163
01:16:45,973 --> 01:16:49,493
Speaker 4: the state's business, like telling us which type of car

1164
01:16:49,613 --> 01:16:53,893
Speaker 4: we should buy or which type of car manufacturers should

1165
01:16:53,973 --> 01:16:57,813
Speaker 4: make and produce, and punishing dealers if they don't sell

1166
01:16:58,173 --> 01:17:01,773
Speaker 4: x percentage of a particular type of vehicle. Governments should

1167
01:17:01,773 --> 01:17:04,453
Speaker 4: stay out of these source of activities. In that sense,

1168
01:17:05,853 --> 01:17:09,533
Speaker 4: our common enemy, just as governments have a common interest

1169
01:17:09,573 --> 01:17:12,733
Speaker 4: in expanding the power at the expense of citizens, see

1170
01:17:12,813 --> 01:17:16,373
Speaker 4: the people's share a common interest in limiting the powers

1171
01:17:16,373 --> 01:17:16,893
Speaker 4: of governments.

1172
01:17:17,253 --> 01:17:21,613
Speaker 2: Hence our enemy the government. And it's a very good book,

1173
01:17:22,013 --> 01:17:25,293
Speaker 2: and I recommend it. One other thing that I want

1174
01:17:25,333 --> 01:17:30,733
Speaker 2: to recommend, Ramesh is the transcript of the interview that

1175
01:17:30,893 --> 01:17:37,693
Speaker 2: you did with Epic TV or Epoch TV, whichever, with

1176
01:17:38,173 --> 01:17:43,293
Speaker 2: someone from American thought Leaders, and it runs eighteen pages

1177
01:17:44,253 --> 01:17:49,613
Speaker 2: and it's full of great information, great commentary, and I

1178
01:17:49,773 --> 01:17:52,373
Speaker 2: was actually sort of a bit envious when I when

1179
01:17:52,373 --> 01:17:56,173
Speaker 2: I read it that I hadn't done it. But nevertheless,

1180
01:17:56,333 --> 01:18:01,613
Speaker 2: it's it's superb. Yes, I didn't know how to pronounce

1181
01:18:01,693 --> 01:18:05,533
Speaker 2: his name, but it's it's it's You'll find it under

1182
01:18:05,853 --> 01:18:09,813
Speaker 2: Ramesh's name on the on the round Stone site. You

1183
01:18:09,973 --> 01:18:11,533
Speaker 2: just you just have to dig it out, do a

1184
01:18:11,613 --> 01:18:17,653
Speaker 2: search the new Biosecurity State, and you'll get even more

1185
01:18:18,173 --> 01:18:21,413
Speaker 2: from that than on top of what we've discussed in

1186
01:18:21,493 --> 01:18:26,413
Speaker 2: the last in the last eighty minutes, so you see

1187
01:18:26,493 --> 01:18:28,133
Speaker 2: time flies when you're enjoying yourself.

1188
01:18:28,653 --> 01:18:31,293
Speaker 3: I want to thank you add one thing so that

1189
01:18:31,453 --> 01:18:32,733
Speaker 3: don't leave a wrong impression.

1190
01:18:32,853 --> 01:18:36,333
Speaker 4: Going back to the Secret Servicing, when the assassination on Trump, sure,

1191
01:18:36,733 --> 01:18:39,773
Speaker 4: I think I would like to acknowledge that the courage

1192
01:18:39,773 --> 01:18:44,213
Speaker 4: of the individual members of the Immediate Protective Unit, including

1193
01:18:44,253 --> 01:18:46,413
Speaker 4: the women, was no less than that of the men

1194
01:18:46,653 --> 01:18:49,973
Speaker 4: when they all threw themselves and formed a protective shield

1195
01:18:50,093 --> 01:18:53,493
Speaker 4: around Trump. So that wasn't a comment on you know,

1196
01:18:53,573 --> 01:18:57,613
Speaker 4: I wasn't trying to demonize or not technoledge contributions to

1197
01:18:57,693 --> 01:19:01,973
Speaker 4: individual members, but the factorymains that the women members were

1198
01:19:02,093 --> 01:19:05,173
Speaker 4: not the size and height of the male members and

1199
01:19:05,253 --> 01:19:08,853
Speaker 4: therefore they could not completely form that human sheet when

1200
01:19:08,893 --> 01:19:10,173
Speaker 4: he woke them and he stood up again.

1201
01:19:10,453 --> 01:19:10,893
Speaker 3: That's the point.

1202
01:19:11,453 --> 01:19:15,373
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the point that has been made. And I

1203
01:19:15,773 --> 01:19:17,933
Speaker 2: have been in the same position that you have and

1204
01:19:18,133 --> 01:19:21,733
Speaker 2: had to had to say that it wasn't it wasn't

1205
01:19:21,853 --> 01:19:24,653
Speaker 2: the fact that they were women. And you may you've

1206
01:19:24,693 --> 01:19:26,893
Speaker 2: made me do something that I reached across and picked

1207
01:19:26,973 --> 01:19:29,413
Speaker 2: up a book and I bought this book for my

1208
01:19:29,973 --> 01:19:35,933
Speaker 2: one of one of the girls. And it's by an

1209
01:19:36,013 --> 01:19:46,253
Speaker 2: ex Secret Service agent whose name is Ivy Pomperass. And

1210
01:19:46,613 --> 01:19:51,733
Speaker 2: there's two things I would observe. When Carolyn saw the

1211
01:19:51,813 --> 01:19:59,013
Speaker 2: picture of her, she said, Wow, she's beautiful. I couldn't

1212
01:19:59,013 --> 01:20:01,733
Speaker 2: say anything. But if I'd said that, you know what,

1213
01:20:01,933 --> 01:20:03,253
Speaker 2: what do you think she's beautiful for?

1214
01:20:04,213 --> 01:20:06,933
Speaker 3: She's a woman? The point being.

1215
01:20:07,013 --> 01:20:11,733
Speaker 2: The book is called Becoming Bulletproof Life Lessons from a

1216
01:20:11,813 --> 01:20:16,453
Speaker 2: Secret Service Agent, former former protective detail for three Presidents

1217
01:20:16,533 --> 01:20:18,693
Speaker 2: and recipient of the of the Medal.

1218
01:20:18,493 --> 01:20:19,493
Speaker 3: Of Valor Award.

1219
01:20:20,973 --> 01:20:25,733
Speaker 2: And I can't swear to this, but I'm pretty sure

1220
01:20:26,653 --> 01:20:32,373
Speaker 2: she's five foot two mm five foot two which was

1221
01:20:32,613 --> 01:20:35,533
Speaker 2: probably shorter than those those women the other the other

1222
01:20:36,013 --> 01:20:41,733
Speaker 2: the other day. But she was was patently very successful

1223
01:20:41,933 --> 01:20:45,613
Speaker 2: as a secret service agent. M And on that note,

1224
01:20:45,933 --> 01:20:49,093
Speaker 2: I want to thank you, very very very sincerely for

1225
01:20:49,613 --> 01:20:53,333
Speaker 2: a marathon effort. I'll leave you alone for a little while,

1226
01:20:53,493 --> 01:20:59,373
Speaker 2: but your opinions are valuable, worthwhile and to be heard

1227
01:20:59,413 --> 01:21:00,493
Speaker 2: by as many as possible.

1228
01:21:01,693 --> 01:21:23,213
Speaker 3: Thanks. Listen. Now, I'm doing it a little differently this year.

1229
01:21:24,773 --> 01:21:27,973
Speaker 2: At the end of the replay, I usually have a

1230
01:21:28,013 --> 01:21:30,613
Speaker 2: few words to say, and every year I have to

1231
01:21:30,693 --> 01:21:32,973
Speaker 2: struggle to think up what the appropriate thing is to

1232
01:21:33,533 --> 01:21:37,293
Speaker 2: put in this particular plot. So I've decided to give

1233
01:21:37,333 --> 01:21:40,053
Speaker 2: myself a break and do one that covers all of them.

1234
01:21:40,133 --> 01:21:42,733
Speaker 2: So if you've heard this before, you can turn it

1235
01:21:42,813 --> 01:21:45,973
Speaker 2: off because you've heard it, because it's going to be

1236
01:21:46,053 --> 01:21:49,333
Speaker 2: the same one for each of the seven replays. Now,

1237
01:21:49,733 --> 01:21:52,253
Speaker 2: if this is the first one, then I trust that

1238
01:21:52,413 --> 01:21:56,053
Speaker 2: you're having a wonderful holiday. If you're not on holiday yet,

1239
01:21:56,093 --> 01:21:56,893
Speaker 2: your time will come.

1240
01:21:57,213 --> 01:21:57,893
Speaker 3: Rest assured.

1241
01:21:58,733 --> 01:22:03,413
Speaker 2: I have enjoyed doing these because re listening to them myself,

1242
01:22:03,893 --> 01:22:05,853
Speaker 2: I get more out of them, and I see things,

1243
01:22:06,013 --> 01:22:08,973
Speaker 2: or I should say, I hear things that I might

1244
01:22:09,013 --> 01:22:10,973
Speaker 2: have got slightly wrong or I could have done better,

1245
01:22:11,253 --> 01:22:14,693
Speaker 2: so it's a learning curve as well. Anyway, we will

1246
01:22:14,773 --> 01:22:18,613
Speaker 2: be back for the next one a week from this

1247
01:22:18,853 --> 01:22:22,533
Speaker 2: particular release, unless, of course it's the last one, which

1248
01:22:22,613 --> 01:22:25,893
Speaker 2: is on the twenty ninth of January, and that'll be

1249
01:22:25,973 --> 01:22:29,613
Speaker 2: the end of this replay series. Add on February five,

1250
01:22:30,053 --> 01:22:33,773
Speaker 2: we shall return with fresh content in the meantime at

1251
01:22:33,813 --> 01:22:36,093
Speaker 2: any stage, drop us, drop us on notes if you've

1252
01:22:36,133 --> 01:22:38,653
Speaker 2: got comment that you'd like to make later at Newstalks

1253
01:22:38,653 --> 01:22:41,453
Speaker 2: AB dot co dot Enzen and Caroline at NEWSTALKSB dot

1254
01:22:41,613 --> 01:22:45,933
Speaker 2: co dot enz and we shall talk soon.

1255
01:22:53,853 --> 01:22:57,453
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks at B Listen

1256
01:22:57,573 --> 01:23:00,493
Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with

1257
01:23:00,653 --> 01:23:03,733
Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio.