1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: Right now. The New Zealand Initiative reckons think tank reckons 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: that Ministers of the Crown here should have the power 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: to fire their department's CEOs on of a heart, which 4 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: the New Zealand Initiative executive directed with me this morning 5 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: on of a good morning, good morning. So why do 6 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: you Well, first of all, what's the reason we don't 7 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: let them do it at the moment. 8 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 2: Well, the reason is actually that since nineteen eighty eight, 9 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 2: the Public Service Commission has been in charge of appointing 10 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 2: department chief executives. It's quite an unusual scenario really, because 11 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 2: most people think when we vought for a government, the 12 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 2: government has the rights to basically govern as they like 13 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 2: and as they promise them their manifestos. But in fact 14 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 2: it's actually the Public Service Commission that appoints the department 15 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 2: chief executives, and very few other countries there for system 16 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 2: like that. 17 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: Yes, but they can say, the minister can say I 18 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: don't have confidence in so and so and that. I 19 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: mean they normally sort it out. Did they need to 20 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: be able to pull the lever themselves. 21 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 2: I think it would be a lot cleaner, because I mean, 22 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 2: if you think about it this way, you might be 23 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 2: a minister just sworn in, but the department se has 24 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 2: been reappointed by the previous government under the Public Service 25 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 2: Commissioner back then, and then you spent your entire term 26 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 2: working with someone who you haven't picked, who might not 27 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 2: be happy with you, and vice versa, and that actually 28 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 2: doesn't work well. Then to implement the government's agenda. 29 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: Can you give me an example of where this hasn't 30 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: worked or why this hasn't worked. 31 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 2: Well? I mean, if you look at the resource management 32 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 2: reforms currently going through parliament. So the coalition agreement was 33 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 2: crystal clear what they wanted to achieve was a new 34 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 2: resource management system based on property rights. We got a 35 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 2: cabinet paper in twenty four which promised just that, and 36 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 2: when you look at the draft legislation now before Parliament, 37 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 2: there is very little of that's still in there, and 38 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 2: we can suspect that the bureaucracy simply watered down the 39 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 2: plants that they didn't like. 40 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: What are they do in Germany? 41 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 2: Well, in Germany, under the constitution, the minister is in 42 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 2: charge of the ministry. It's articled sixty five of the 43 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 2: Basic Law and that basically makes the Minister the chief 44 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 2: second Now In practice, of course, it means the minister's 45 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 2: appoint a state secretary and the state secretary runs the 46 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 2: department on their behalf. And that state secretary has to 47 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 2: be qualified so as a clear qualification requirement under the law. 48 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 2: But also it's someone that the minister can trust. So 49 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 2: it's a political appointment. But the rest of the public 50 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 2: service is totally neutral. So the political appointments are really 51 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 2: for the top tier of public servants, but nothing underneath. 52 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 2: The rest is totally protected. There are guard rails, there 53 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,519 Speaker 2: is a whistleblower clause and actually if you ever try 54 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: to do anything unlawful in Germany, the public service has 55 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 2: a duty to object to that. So it is not 56 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 2: a job for Maid's scheme. It is something with guard rails, 57 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 2: but it ensures that the government of the day can 58 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:46,519 Speaker 2: implement their gender. 59 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: Appreciate your time. Oliver Hartwitz, New Zealand Initiative Executive directed For. 60 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 2: More from Early edition with Ryan Bridge. Listen live to 61 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 2: news Talks it be from five am weekdays, or follow 62 00:02:57,960 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.