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Speaker 1: This week on the Business of Tech, powered by two

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Speaker 1: Degrees Business, we talked to one of Australasia's most experienced

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Speaker 1: tech executives on navigating rapid change, fostering innovation, and having

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Speaker 1: those really hard workplace conversations.

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Speaker 2: Steve Vamos forged his career at IBM RAN zero for

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Speaker 2: nearly five years, as well as Microsoft Australia, New Zealand

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Speaker 2: and Apple's Asia Pacific division. For his sins, he even

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Speaker 2: the distint in charge of Ossie Media Empire nine MSN,

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Speaker 2: so he's seen a lot of change and a lot

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Speaker 2: of technological disruption. Now he's written a book distilling what

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Speaker 2: he's learned over forty years.

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Speaker 3: In management, organizations are generally pretty good at saying this

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Speaker 3: is what we need to do. They're also pretty good

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Speaker 3: at giving their people jobs to do. But what they

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Speaker 3: don't do is align those jobs with the things that

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Speaker 3: are most important to get to change. And so the

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Speaker 3: alignment process is really where the rubber hits the road.

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Speaker 3: It's where the people at the top take a serious

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Speaker 3: interest in the how of getting this stuff done.

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Speaker 1: And you talked to him, Peter in an interview that

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Speaker 1: will get people thinking about their own attitudes to change

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Speaker 1: how they relate to their bosses and colleagues and crucially,

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Speaker 1: how to find alignment with them to get stuff done.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Steve has incredible experience in some fascinating anecdotes to share,

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Speaker 2: so stick around for my chat with him. Before we

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Speaker 2: delve into that, though, Ben, we've got to talk about

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Speaker 2: the big change Australia rammed through last week on the

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Speaker 2: last day of the parliamentary setting for the year, the

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Speaker 2: ban on social media for under sixteen's OEMG, what do you.

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Speaker 3: Make of this?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, hang on a second, I just need to climb

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Speaker 1: up onto a soapbox quickly. But I think what's really

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Speaker 1: telling about this story is a lot of it was

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Speaker 1: influenced on the work of a man named Jonathan Height,

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Speaker 1: who published a book called The Anxious Generation, all about

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Speaker 1: the impact of social media on teens and the increase

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Speaker 1: in mental health issues and drawing some pretty straight lines

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Speaker 1: to it. That work has been criticized by a lot

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Speaker 1: of scholars who have said it's a little bit broad,

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Speaker 1: drawing conclusions that maybe other academics can't quite see. But

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Speaker 1: what's interesting is that from that book, Height made a

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Speaker 1: few recommendations get kids off social media. One was banned

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Speaker 1: smartphones in school, and the other ones were get kids

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Speaker 1: more engaged in having responsibility and in interacting as members

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Speaker 1: of a community. And what I think is mind blowing

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Speaker 1: to me is that we have absolutely run away with

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Speaker 1: the first two with the social media and the smartphone issues.

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Speaker 1: And sure, maybe we need better parental education, better ways

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Speaker 1: of managing kids on social platforms, but why aren't we

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Speaker 1: as a community coming together and saying how can we

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Speaker 1: actually get kids together more? And really interestingly, I was

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Speaker 1: talking to somebody yesterday about some failing malls and we've

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Speaker 1: got one here in East Aukland where I live, Packer Animal,

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Speaker 1: and it is having a really tough time of it,

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Speaker 1: lots of roadworks and all these things that are driving

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Speaker 1: it down. And in the spaces where shops used to be,

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Speaker 1: they've put table tennis tables, you know, And it's an

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Speaker 1: example of when there's no company that can make a

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Speaker 1: quick dollar, then we can have places where people can

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Speaker 1: just come and be and exist and socialize. And I

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Speaker 1: think that if we spent more time thinking about how

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Speaker 1: we can get people to connect, creating more spaces for

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Speaker 1: teens and young adults to actually be together and hang

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Speaker 1: out and spend time in a safe place that has

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Speaker 1: adults there as well. Maybe possibly we wouldn't have so

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Speaker 1: many mental health issues. But focusing so heavily on just

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Speaker 1: hammer banning social media, making sweeping legislations about smartphones and

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Speaker 1: schools in this kind of thing is a kind of

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Speaker 1: an escapegoats easy way to say that you're doing something

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Speaker 1: and now I can get back off my soapbox.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm pretty much standing on the same one. I

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Speaker 2: just think it's I really hate the way they've gone

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Speaker 2: about this, the fact that they ram this through in

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Speaker 2: literally the last day they passed this bill. It does

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Speaker 2: have bipartisan support from the Labor government and the Liberal

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Speaker 2: Democrat coalition, so they all see this as something popular

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Speaker 2: with the electorate and when they do polls, your parents

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Speaker 2: are broadly in the support of this. So they're sort

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Speaker 2: of looking to the election going we want to use

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Speaker 2: this as a soapbox issue. But they haven't outlined how

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Speaker 2: they're going to achieve this. The how of it is

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Speaker 2: completely missing. They've got an age verification sort of trial

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Speaker 2: it's going to be run, but they haven't officially in

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Speaker 2: the in the legislation named what platforms this is going

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Speaker 2: to apply to. They've floated a fifty million dollar fine

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Speaker 2: if social media companies are in breach of this or

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Speaker 2: not doing enough to comply with it. So they'll have

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Speaker 2: a year during which time this trial will run. But

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Speaker 2: the how of it is incredibly complex. The French have

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Speaker 2: found they have a similar sort of Under fifteen social

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Speaker 2: media ban, which they've delayed partly because it's so technically

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Speaker 2: difficult to do this, but fundamentally it's going to come

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Speaker 2: down to you need to verify someone's age and how

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Speaker 2: do you do that? And essentially you have to do

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Speaker 2: it for every Australian citizen. You can't just do it

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Speaker 2: for the kids. You've got it. Suddenly you have an

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Speaker 2: age verification scheme forced in on the premise of protecting

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Speaker 2: kids from the homes of social media. So everyone will

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Speaker 2: have to verify their age and that is a complete

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Speaker 2: nightmare from a privacy security point of view. You need

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Speaker 2: to have some secure system and it hasn't been done

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Speaker 2: on a scale like that, So this is really a

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Speaker 2: massive social experiment but also a technological experiment and whether

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Speaker 2: you can actually safely and securely do age verification at scale.

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Speaker 2: Australia and New Zealand have digital identity plans into works,

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Speaker 2: but there's still years away from happening. They're talking about

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Speaker 2: using things like age estimation, analyzing a person's biological or

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Speaker 2: behavioral features to try and sort of estimate their age,

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Speaker 2: age inference from a person's life circumstances, all the stuff

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Speaker 2: that they've put on social media. These are not perfect

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Speaker 2: and they haven't been done at scale either for the

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Speaker 2: purposes of age verification. So we're sort of in uncharted

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Speaker 2: territory running this big experiment which essentially amounts to pushing

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Speaker 2: an age verification scheme on twenty six million Australians.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, the question of whether you can

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Speaker 1: get a non idea identifying option working, which is the

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Speaker 1: estimation or inference tools that you talked about. Those are

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Speaker 1: the ideal because there is some measure of privacy preferred.

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Speaker 1: If we can't get those working, then we will have

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Speaker 1: to go to verification. And in that case it's you know,

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Speaker 1: actually connecting an identity with a account. And if you're

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Speaker 1: on Facebook, for example, that may not be such a

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Speaker 1: huge issue because you tend to present yourself you know,

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Speaker 1: it's a non anonymous platform, but the likes of Reddit

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Speaker 1: for example, you know, people tend to post there anonymously.

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Speaker 1: For whether you like that or not, there is a

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Speaker 1: measure of privacy and the ability to have those conversations

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Speaker 1: in private can be used for negative as we talked

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Speaker 1: about before, but can also be used for good things,

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Speaker 1: for allowing connection with people who are outside of your

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Speaker 1: social circle who may have a better understanding of your

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Speaker 1: unique perspective. Of course, I'm thinking about people like LGBTQ.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. It just becomes really murky and really

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Speaker 1: difficult to assas and I think you wrapped it up

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Speaker 1: really nicely in your opinion piece last week.

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Speaker 2: We're going to see the rise of this ageous assurance

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Speaker 2: tech market where third parties are going to be relied

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Speaker 2: on and paid large amounts of money by potentially by

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Speaker 2: the tech platforms to do this. So there's that, but

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Speaker 2: the technical difficulty to side. I think what you tapped into,

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Speaker 2: Ben is the fundamental opposition to this is there is

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Speaker 2: a lot of good done on these platforms. We have

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Speaker 2: for twenty years now we have told young people go online,

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Speaker 2: express yourself, use these tools, become content creators, because this

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Speaker 2: is a potential future for you in the digital world.

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Speaker 2: Get comfortable with these tools, and now we're saying no,

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Speaker 2: we don't want you to use them. And you can

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Speaker 2: even go on to express yourself with your friends, you

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Speaker 2: have to prove your identity, so you can't have any

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Speaker 2: anonymity as well. But really I think misses the big

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Speaker 2: problem and gives big tech a sort of an out,

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Speaker 2: which is we need to demonetize children through the use

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Speaker 2: of these highly addictive algorithms that are targeting them and

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Speaker 2: causing We've seen the leaked documents from the likes of

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Speaker 2: Meta about the mental health issues that sort of activity

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Speaker 2: has led to. That's the real issue. How do we

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Speaker 2: tackle that the algorithms the black box, getting more transparency

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Speaker 2: and getting away from that highly manipulative algorithmic targeting. And

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Speaker 2: this gives them a free pass. They'll continue doing that

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Speaker 2: as long as they can tell whether someone is sixteen

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Speaker 2: or not crazy. So I guess the question Ben is,

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Speaker 2: I mean, we have band cell phones in schools here recently.

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Speaker 2: Do you think now our own politicians may be in

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Speaker 2: the same sort of bipartisan spirit, are going to say, well,

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Speaker 2: we like what Ozzie's doing, let's try and do it here.

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Speaker 1: I guess answer so that would be is how populist.

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Speaker 1: Do you think the current government is.

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Speaker 2: So we may see moves have been pretty muted on it.

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Speaker 2: I think like with our government on most tech things,

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Speaker 2: if it's too complicated and expensive, they'll pretty much do nothing.

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Speaker 1: And that is true. Yeah, I imagine there will be

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Speaker 1: some tension between the people in power who want to

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Speaker 1: appeal to the masses who are feeling like they want

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Speaker 1: to blame someone versus the inertia against big tech of

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Speaker 1: just low touch regulation.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, hopefully that winds over.

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Speaker 1: In this case.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So yes. A bunch of Australian politicians last week took

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Speaker 1: a particularly blunt approach to bringing about change. And they

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Speaker 1: may have been thinking about why Ozzie, teens and kids

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Speaker 1: may be better off without TikTok and Snapchat.

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Speaker 2: But it's really not clear they've thought through that deeply.

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Speaker 2: The how on earth to make a blanket ban work well.

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Speaker 2: Steve Vamos argues that when it comes to leading through change,

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Speaker 2: it's not enough to know the why. You also need

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Speaker 2: to know how you're going to do it.

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Speaker 1: His debut book, called Through Shifts and Shocks Lessons from

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Speaker 1: the front Line of Technology and Change really gets into

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Speaker 1: the nuts and bolts of how to lead through disruption

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Speaker 1: and change, which, let's face it, every organization is facing

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Speaker 1: in spades at the moment.

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Speaker 2: Steve lives just down the road from me here in

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Speaker 2: central Wellington. He's still here after stepping down as CEO

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Speaker 2: of Zero in January twenty twenty three. He's got so

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Speaker 2: much wisdom and experience, particularly in the tech sector. I

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Speaker 2: really enjoyed this chat with him last week at my

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Speaker 2: place here in Wellington.

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Speaker 1: This interview is partly war stories from the tech sector,

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Speaker 1: but there are some practical self help tips thrown into

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Speaker 1: So without further ado, let's listen to your interview with

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Speaker 1: tech sector veteran Steve Vamos.

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Speaker 2: Steve, thanks so much for being on the business off Tech.

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Speaker 2: Really great honor to have you in my house and

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Speaker 2: to be able to talk with you. Forty years at

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Speaker 2: least off experience in the corporate world, in the tech

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Speaker 2: world as well, from Apple and IBM to nine MSN zero,

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Speaker 2: one of our beloved tech companies you ran for nearly

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Speaker 2: five years. You've distilled a lot of your learnings into

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Speaker 2: this incredible book Thought Shifts and Shocks, and the back

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Speaker 2: end of the book in particular is really sort of

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Speaker 2: a self help book for anyone out there who's in

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Speaker 2: a team or is in leadership. So I think people

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Speaker 2: will really find that valuable. But lots of great anecdotes

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Speaker 2: and stories and near which we'll get into some of them,

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Speaker 2: but I wanted to start with something that really stayed

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Speaker 2: with me in the book. Is this idea of the

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Speaker 2: importance of character and love. You to maybe check off

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Speaker 2: by telling us the story of your parents who came

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Speaker 2: from Hungary to Australia. Incredible story there, the character off

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Speaker 2: your parents, what that instilled in you, and what that

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Speaker 2: has done to influence your leadership style throughout your career.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Peter, great to be with you, so thanks for

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Speaker 3: taking the time to have a chat. Look, really, in

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Speaker 3: my journey, I've come to increasingly appreciate that change is

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Speaker 3: a human challenge. It's also a team and a challenge

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Speaker 3: of collaboration. And when I say it's a human challenge,

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Speaker 3: it really comes down to a whole range of things

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Speaker 3: that are about understanding yourself. And so as I've become

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Speaker 3: more aware of that, I look back on my parents,

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Speaker 3: my father, the principles and the beliefs that I was

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Speaker 3: raised with and how they shaped me to be, in

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Speaker 3: a sense a leader who didn't necessarily get everything right.

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Speaker 3: I surely didn't, but it was one really sensitive to

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Speaker 3: other people. And how important that sensitivity to others is

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Speaker 3: to the change journey, and I think it's grossly underestimated.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, my parents' story was one of being very brave.

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Speaker 3: They wanted to change their lives, and I think there's

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Speaker 3: nothing more significant than uprooting yourself at the age of

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Speaker 3: nineteen and twenty and try to escape, and they did twice,

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Speaker 3: his first time unsuccessfully.

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Speaker 2: This was behind the Iron Curtain.

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Speaker 3: Behind the Iron Curtain after the Hungarian Revolution, and then

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Speaker 3: the reaction that happened at that point, and they finally

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Speaker 3: found their way out. Actually, my father said to me

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Speaker 3: that the worst feeling he's ever had in his life

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Speaker 3: was that feeling of being stateless, being a refugee. And

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Speaker 3: he also never let me doubt his anger at politicians

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Speaker 3: and people who were flippant in their description of the

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Speaker 3: refugee struggle, and also the fact that people would pay

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Speaker 3: others to get them out of a country and would

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Speaker 3: take a boat to get to another country when their

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Speaker 3: life depends on it. So but the real message from

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Speaker 3: my father was one of deep respect for others and

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Speaker 3: the rights of others. So whenever I was a bit

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Speaker 3: of a smartass, or i'd say anything in any way

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Speaker 3: derogatory about somebody else, he'd be very quick to sort

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Speaker 3: of slam down on me and say, hey, you know

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Speaker 3: you can do better than that.

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Speaker 2: To that anecdote about you and your brother were playing

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Speaker 2: and you said your sister, no, you can't be in

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Speaker 2: this game, you're a girl. Yeah, it didn't go down

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Speaker 2: well with.

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Speaker 3: Man real bad, And at the age of twelve thirteen,

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Speaker 3: my brother and I had our father come after us

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Speaker 3: in response to this whole comment that one of us,

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Speaker 3: I can't remember which one of us made, that you

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Speaker 3: can't do this because you're a girl, grabbed us both

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Speaker 3: by the collar, pulled our faces right into his face

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Speaker 3: and said, if you ever dared tell her she can't

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Speaker 3: do it, you can do I'll kill you. Do you

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Speaker 3: understand me? So that was my first lesson in gender equity.

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Speaker 2: Your dad did what thirty eight years at IBM in Australia,

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Speaker 2: you did fourteen, So between the two over fifty years,

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Speaker 2: what was it that he learned and did in this

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Speaker 2: technology company from much of his career that really influenced

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Speaker 2: you and maybe pointed you in the direction of technology

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I loved hearing him talk about the competitive nature

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Speaker 3: of the industry. So he was in sales and technical

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Speaker 3: support of sales for a lot of his careers, so

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Speaker 3: he would tell me about the big deal they were

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Speaker 3: working on, and some they'd win and some they'd lose.

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Speaker 3: Some of the these losses were hit pretty hard. So

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Speaker 3: I love the competitive nature of it and just in

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Speaker 3: becoming a manager. Before I got there, I spent a

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Speaker 3: year just working as an assistant to salespeople. Then I

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Speaker 3: worked for two years learning how to be an engineer,

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Speaker 3: to write software where and support customers implementing software. For

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Speaker 3: six months, they put me into a customer site to

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Speaker 3: really understand what a customer experience felt like. Then they

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Speaker 3: let me loose as a salesperson. Then they figured I

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Speaker 3: had management potential, and a couple of years in to

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Speaker 3: my sales career, they put me on a pre manager course,

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Speaker 3: and then when I a little after that, they appointed

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Speaker 3: me a manager, put me on a new manager course,

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Speaker 3: and then six months after that I got the most

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Speaker 3: significant feedback of my management career, where on a mandatory

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Speaker 3: process my team was asked about me as a manager.

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Speaker 3: I thought I was doing great. I thought I was

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Speaker 3: a manager I'd love to work for. The feedback was awful.

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Speaker 3: The people said working for Steve is like being a

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Speaker 3: tool to get his job done. He hasn't got much

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Speaker 3: time for us, and he's just completely focused on his task,

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Speaker 3: and I was shocked. That rocked me and made me realize,

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Speaker 3: just at that point, which was very early in my career,

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Speaker 3: that the way you see yourself isn't the way others

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Speaker 3: will see you, which means be receptive to how others

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Speaker 3: are seeing you. From early on, I've learned that being

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Speaker 3: open to what others experience, is what they're seeing and feeling,

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Speaker 3: is just super important because it gives you the insight

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Speaker 3: to change and an insight to make judgments about what's

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Speaker 3: most important.

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Speaker 2: Just to finish off on character where we started, I mean,

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Speaker 2: we've just come through a pretty nasty US election where

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Speaker 2: we have a president elect who many would say does

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Speaker 2: not have good character. As a convicted criminal, his attitude

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Speaker 2: and conduct towards women has been appalling, So I guess

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Speaker 2: many a sort of questioning how important character actually is.

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Speaker 2: And you've worked with leaders who were really driven people.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Steve Jobs was one of those sorts of

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Speaker 2: people at Apple. You went through a number of sea

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Speaker 2: who are probably similar, but he really pitomizes that visionary

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Speaker 2: leader who didn't necessarily treat people very well, but was

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Speaker 2: able to mobilize them to achieve something brilliant. How important

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Speaker 2: is character still really and what is the true test

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Speaker 2: of character?

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Speaker 3: That's a great question. The thing is character runs through

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Speaker 3: everything and can have a good and a bad influence

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Speaker 3: on everything. So the way I look at the change

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Speaker 3: journey is really three steps, which is getting clear about

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Speaker 3: your purpose and priorities. So again, your character might influence

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Speaker 3: your purpose and your priorities, driving alignment, getting people, resources, technology,

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Speaker 3: getting everything aligned behind the things that are most important.

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Speaker 3: And then the third step is to review how you're going,

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Speaker 3: because in change, what you think is clarity may evolve

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Speaker 3: with your experience and you might think you're aligned, but

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Speaker 3: then as you review performance, you go, well, we're not

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Speaker 3: as aligned as we need to be. So you get

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Speaker 3: in a cycle of clear aligned performance review and you

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Speaker 3: keep going through that on a change journey because the

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Speaker 3: destination is never straight A to B. But at the

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Speaker 3: heart of it, the calls you make are in each

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Speaker 3: of those areas defined by the conversations you have and

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Speaker 3: the choices you make, and the human element flows through

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Speaker 3: all those things. So regardless of character, if you are clear,

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Speaker 3: aligned and performance reviewed, and you have the tough conversations

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Speaker 3: that make the hard choices, you can get a lot done.

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Speaker 3: If character is an issue, the big question is over time,

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Speaker 3: what's the outcome? Is the outcome one that's good for people,

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Speaker 3: good for others? And with that, is it sustained? Is

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Speaker 3: it a sustained change that does good? So I think

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Speaker 3: that conclusions around character are really hard to make at

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Speaker 3: the beginning of a journey rather than maybe some time after.

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Speaker 3: I even believe that a big part of the performance

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Speaker 3: of a CEO is judged by what happens after Rod

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Speaker 3: Drury's performance is zero. CEO after he left is something

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Speaker 3: that was just as outstanding in my opinion as what

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Speaker 3: he contributed as CEO, because he set the company up

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Speaker 3: to do great things after he was no longer in

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Speaker 3: a management role. So that's a test in my view,

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Speaker 3: that's the ultimate test of great character. Is what happens

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Speaker 3: after you're gone? What did you leave behind?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's time will tell. I guess for for

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Speaker 2: Trump for Trump version two. What legacy he leaves and

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Speaker 2: how long it lasts really two big problems you're outlining

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Speaker 2: in the book here. Our ability to lead and respond

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Speaker 2: to change, you right, is not good enough to put

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Speaker 2: it kindly. And change is best managed through great teamwork

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Speaker 2: and collaboration. But a lot of us work in mediocre teams.

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Speaker 2: So the real theme here is changed. I mean, take

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Speaker 2: us back to some of those companies you worked in

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Speaker 2: that were facing massive change, big blue IBM company that

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Speaker 2: was known from mainframe computers. Every bank had an IBM mainframe,

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Speaker 2: big expense of computers. Then we had the mini computer

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Speaker 2: revolution come along. IBM was faced with a choice here,

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Speaker 2: do we embrace this and become a PC maker or

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Speaker 2: do we sort of stick to our roots, which is

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Speaker 2: big computers, big ticket items. What was it like sort

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Speaker 2: through the eighties, We're working in a company that was

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Speaker 2: confronted with disruption and change and was really struggling to

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Speaker 2: actually embrace that change.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, the eighties were in a sense a good

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Speaker 3: decade for IBM, and then as you entered the nineties

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Speaker 3: is when it really struggled. There's so many elements to

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Speaker 3: what is important in change. So if we take an

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Speaker 3: individual for an individual, I always say, you've got to

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Speaker 3: be willing to suspend your beliefs and learn, become a

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Speaker 3: learned or rather than know it all, become a learn

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Speaker 3: it all. And we've seen in many industries. We'll touch

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Speaker 3: on a couple, but there was a classic situation that

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Speaker 3: was quite pivotal in industry where the person in control

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Speaker 3: of the relationship with Microsoft is a guy called Jim Cannavino.

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Speaker 3: He was an IBM. He came out of the obviously

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Speaker 3: the big computer side of IBM, and I heard the

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Speaker 3: story and it's validated in stuff other people have written,

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Speaker 3: maybe not exactly as I heard it, but Cannavino was

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Speaker 3: then in charge of the Bill Gates relationship and Microsoft

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Speaker 3: and IBM had a mindset that the hardware was most important.

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Speaker 3: The software was just this thing you had to do

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Speaker 3: to sell boxes. So he went into the relationship with

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Speaker 3: Gates and ultimately made a big mistake in allowing Microsoft

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Speaker 3: to go off and do Windows when really at that

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Speaker 3: point they had Microsoft under contract. And what led to

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Speaker 3: that was his belief system the software wasn't that important.

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Speaker 3: But it even went further than that, because the story

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Speaker 3: was that in a group of five hundred people. He

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Speaker 3: said the words that if God believed in distributed computers,

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Speaker 3: which is computers everywhere, he would have put your brains

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Speaker 3: in your fingertips. And the point about that is, once

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Speaker 3: you and we saw in media industry, banners won't work,

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Speaker 3: digital media will never pay. That's what the experts said

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Speaker 3: when I was at ninety meters said years ago. And

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Speaker 3: it's holding too close to your belief system that and

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Speaker 3: not being open minded that is so dangerous. And that's

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Speaker 3: why I emphasize a couple of things very much in

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Speaker 3: the book. One is change is hard for us, and

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Speaker 3: it's hard for us as people because we meet it

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Speaker 3: with fear until we understand it. It's hard for us

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Speaker 3: because we're generally told not to make mistakes, and we

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Speaker 3: generally are praised for what we know rather than what

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Speaker 3: we learn. And that way of thinking is great for

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Speaker 3: things you don't want to change, but hard when you're

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Speaker 3: confronted with new things, because those you know anything new

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Speaker 3: is the realm of mistake making.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you point out that that conformist conditioning,

427
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Speaker 2: as you put it, is actually quite useful in a

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Speaker 2: way of shielding you from risk. But particularly in the

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Speaker 2: tech game. Taking those risks is what will get you

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Speaker 2: the reward and in some cases save the company or

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Speaker 2: allowed to thrive. And one of the things, one of

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Speaker 2: the big themes in the book is finding alignment. How

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Speaker 2: do you bring all of these people together? And it

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Speaker 2: might be worth reflecting. You came into zero. It was

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Speaker 2: a relatively mature company dynamic founder Rod Drury, but very

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Speaker 2: big company by the time you got there. How do

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Speaker 2: you follow up a founder like that and find alignment

438
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 2: with this group of people that Eve inherited to actually

439
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 2: build on what Rod has created, but take it in

440
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 2: the direction it needs to go. It obviously needed to

441
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 2: go somewhere different. After that first ten year period or

442
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:19,640
Speaker 2: something like that.

443
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,360
Speaker 3: What was that like, Yeah, it look it was awesome,

444
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 3: awesome experience. We actually went from fifteen hundred to forty

445
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 3: five hundred during my time, so essentially the business tripled,

446
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 3: and the challenge and the way that I approached it

447
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 3: was really that we had to really focus on what

448
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 3: it is we wanted to be. So we actually changed

449
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 3: our purpose statement from being about accounting to being about

450
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 3: being a platform, a trusted and insightfuled platform for small business.

451
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 3: So we reviewed what it is we're here to do,

452
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 3: and it was more than accounting software because the Zero

453
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 3: platform opened up to thousands of applications and different use

454
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 3: cases the partnerships the company had, so getting clear about

455
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 3: purpose and then prioritization that was always the hardest thing

456
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 3: for me because there were so many things we could

457
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 3: do and wanted to do. The tough aspect of prioritization

458
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 3: is saying no to good ideas and good people. And

459
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 3: there were acquisitions that we looked at that everybody wanted

460
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 3: to do, and I had to be the bad guy.

461
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 3: At the end of the line. He said, you know what,

462
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 3: it's a great idea, but no, because we need to focus.

463
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 3: You know, I wouldn't give myself ten out of ten

464
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 3: on the prioritization stakes either, you know. It's one of

465
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 3: those things you really struggle with, So yeah, let others

466
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 3: score how I went on that. But alignment that you

467
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 3: mentioned is really important because in times of change, organizations

468
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 3: are generally pretty good at saying this is what we

469
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 3: need to do. They're also pretty good at giving their

470
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 3: people jobs to do, but what they don't do is

471
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 3: align those jobs with the things that are most important

472
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 3: to get done to change and so the alignment process

473
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 3: is really where the rubber hits the road. It's where

474
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 3: the people at the top take a serious interest in

475
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 3: what it means and the how of getting this stuff done,

476
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 3: which means you have to partner with your management layer

477
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 3: by layer and really understand the conflicts that doing new

478
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 3: things provides with doing what you've been doing, help them

479
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 3: make the trade offs and make sure they get the

480
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 3: resources and support they need, because if you don't do that,

481
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 3: all that happens in the middle of the company as

482
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 3: it gets bigger and bigger, is you've got managers sitting

483
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 3: there going, I'm struggling every day to do everything I'm doing,

484
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 3: and now you want me to do all this extra stuff.

485
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 3: Where's the person I'm going to talk to about the

486
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 3: trade offs here? And that's where alignment becomes essential. It's

487
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 3: why the intentions of the top don't become the work

488
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 3: of those who do the work because the alignment focus

489
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 3: is inadequate.

490
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, there's a lot of great stuff

491
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 2: in the book about how you put that into practice,

492
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: you know, And it's really about hearing from other people.

493
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 2: Listening to other people's views, so crucial in the fast

494
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 2: moving tech sector, in particular, of people down in the

495
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 2: bowels of the company writing the code for the software

496
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 2: as saying to you, I don't think this is going

497
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 2: to work in the midterm, little one the long term,

498
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 2: and you don't listen to them, You've got a real

499
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 2: problem there. And some of the companies you've worked for,

500
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 2: we saw that that became an entrenched problem for them,

501
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 2: in the likes of IBM, that they really struggle to overcome.

502
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really it's true. The thing is, if you

503
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 3: want to change things, and you really believe you have to,

504
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 3: you have to make the change agenda the big agenda,

505
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 3: because otherwise it just gets drowned out by what you've

506
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 3: been doing. So, you know, everywhere I learned that at

507
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 3: Microsoft Australia, when you know, it wasn't early in my

508
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 3: career that I figured out this alignment thing, and I

509
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 3: didn't do it on my own. We had slow growth

510
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 3: at Microsoft Australia and we were challenged by Steve Bormer

511
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 3: leaders to come up with a strategy to accelerate growth,

512
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 3: and the core of that strategy was being better in

513
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,959
Speaker 3: the eyes of our customers. Because I don't know if

514
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 3: you remember back the Microsoft's reputation for customer service wasn't great.

515
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 3: But nowadays you don't hear that anymore. You know that

516
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,239
Speaker 3: the company has really done much much better. So we

517
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 3: were at the beginning of this need to change that.

518
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 3: And so when we went through what was going to

519
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 3: be the best way to improve customer service, we realized

520
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 3: it wasn't one function of the business. It required every

521
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 3: function of the business to play. So what we had

522
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 3: to do was to get into the detail. So, Okay,

523
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 3: what does it mean to improve customer service? It could

524
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 3: be we're going to improve our CRM. It could be

525
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 3: we're going to run training for our salespeople. Well, then,

526
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 3: if that's your intention, what's the action, Who's going to

527
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 3: own it, who are they delegating it to, and what

528
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 3: actions are they delegating And you have to get specific

529
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 3: around those actions and follow up and have really good

530
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 3: operational people who hold you to account. So this function

531
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 3: of operations in the tech world is one of defining

532
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 3: the actions that come from a strategy and making sure

533
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 3: those accountable deliver on it. And I learned that in

534
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 3: an I call it level or the planning, which is

535
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 3: cascading critical objectives layer by layer and having people sign

536
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 3: up to deliver it having had the conversation about what

537
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,959
Speaker 3: they might have to stop doing or what additional support

538
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 3: you need to give them. It's just closing the loop.

539
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 3: And they're the difficult conversations that are sometimes avoided.

540
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to talk about that because that, I

541
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 2: think is the thing that people will relate to the most,

542
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 2: the difficult conversations. Just on Microsoft, Sachaadella's been at the

543
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: helm of the company for a decade or more. In

544
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: our huge change Agent really brought Microsoft into the cloud

545
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 2: computing space with Azure, went big on that what if

546
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 2: you observe from a fire off? How he approaches things

547
00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 2: that is really pertinent to this change dealing with change.

548
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, I've been fortunate to have met with such

549
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 3: a couple of times over the years. First when I

550
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 3: worked for Microsoft in Seattle. He was one of the

551
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 3: product leaders back then and I was running the international

552
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 3: online business, and so I went to have a chat

553
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 3: with him and shared my thoughts on what was holding

554
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 3: us back in the digital media world, and I found

555
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 3: him really open minded and a real learning oriented guy. Then.

556
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 3: But Microsoft's an amazing company. I mean, the ability to

557
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 3: execute strategy, there is undeniable. And I've also in the

558
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,719
Speaker 3: book paid a little bit of a tribute to Steve Boormer,

559
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 3: because you know, it's kind of fashionable to look at

560
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 3: Steve and say, well, he's a CEO. Wasn't as successful

561
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 3: as it could and should have been. No one's ever is.

562
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:52,959
Speaker 3: But Steve turned Microsoft from a PC company software company

563
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 3: into the powerhouse enterprise business that it is, and without that,

564
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 3: the next steps couldn't have been taken. So I think

565
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 3: that such a success now such a has said this himself.

566
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 3: You know, some credit goes to Burma for what such

567
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 3: has been ablett accomplished as well.

568
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, difficult conversations and you've had many of them in

569
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: your career, some of them you recount in the book.

570
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 2: One really interesting one has actually happened at Zero around diversity.

571
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 2: I mean difficult conversations around laying people off, having to

572
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 2: say to people your time is up in this organization.

573
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 3: You know that.

574
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 2: I think most people listening, that's what keeps them up

575
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 2: at night. Try having those very difficult conversations. But we

576
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 2: have new things coming at leadership teams and CEOs, things

577
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 2: like diversity. Maybe tell us about that that issue that

578
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 2: came up at Zero that you had to deal with.

579
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's that was a really really difficult issue, and

580
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 3: it's a pretty it's even in the context of this conversation,

581
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 3: a hard one that just sort of brush over. But

582
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 3: we had we had an issue where one of our

583
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 3: staff members posted to our internal channels their very strong

584
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,479
Speaker 3: beliefs that they could not celebrate Pride months for their

585
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 3: own personal religious beliefs. And whilst we all appreciated that

586
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 3: people believe that's no shock to anybody, it was the

587
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,439
Speaker 3: way that that was communicated that which I won't say here,

588
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 3: but it was hurtful. You know. In the case of Zero,

589
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 3: there was no question as a company we stood behind

590
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 3: our LGBTQI people and their rights to express what they

591
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 3: wanted to express. We also actually didn't have an issue

592
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 3: with that person's beliefs or their ability to express them.

593
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 3: Was how they said it, and it's that responsibility just

594
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 3: to speak about others in a way that's respectful. So

595
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 3: what we came to was most important to come with

596
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,959
Speaker 3: some principles, and the principle in that case is that

597
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 3: we always believe that we have to support first party

598
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 3: over third party, and what you want to be and

599
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 3: what you see as your identity is, I'm going to

600
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 3: rate that more important than what a third party thing

601
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 3: says about you. And I think that's a principle it

602
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 3: can hold for because you are the authority, not the

603
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 3: other person. So our reaction was not the censor. It

604
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 3: was more to respond more effectively than we did in

605
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 3: that particular instance where we responded too slow and we

606
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 3: didn't respond in a way that was sensitive enough to

607
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 3: those that were hurt. So that was what was behind

608
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 3: the learning. Really tough, tough one.

609
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 2: It is tough, but it's something that every company is

610
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: sort of grappling with at the moment. We've seen sort

611
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 2: of social activism, the rise of that. Maybe it's a

612
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 2: generational change. You know, gens ITAs are more inclined to

613
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 2: be socially active and champion causes that are important to

614
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 2: them in the workplace. I mean, is there a place

615
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 2: for that. Probably didn't happen back in the mid eighties

616
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 2: at IBM, but it's a factor now.

617
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,720
Speaker 3: It's a new phenomenon in the context of certainly my journey.

618
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 3: It's the last you know, five ten years that this

619
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 3: has really become such a strong focus. Look, there's a

620
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 3: couple of things to this, you do have to have

621
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 3: some idea of where you want to weigh in as

622
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 3: an organization and where you wan't. So for example, with

623
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 3: Roe versus Wide, we had some of our people say

624
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 3: we should not do business in states at out law abortion.

625
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 3: Clearly were responded and said, no, we aren't going to

626
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 3: do that, so sorry, but no, and so you do

627
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 3: have to But that was fairly straightforward, but there are

628
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 3: others where it's not as straightforward, and you have to

629
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 3: you have to decide what position are going to take.

630
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 3: The other one, which was kind of my final words

631
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 3: on the subject and the zero context, was remember why

632
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 3: we're here. You know, business is about providing a service

633
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 3: and products to customers, and let's not let all the

634
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 3: very many distractions that there are in the world and

635
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 3: the distance between us in a world of hybrid work,

636
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 3: get in the way of us remembering why we're here

637
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 3: and the job we have to do. And so, in

638
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 3: a maybe a bit of an old fashioned way, I

639
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 3: did sort of send the message that all these things

640
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 3: are important, but our position, our let's call it privilege

641
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 3: to be able to weigh into these issues is founded

642
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 3: on customers buying our products and never forget it. It's

643
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 3: not an easy journey, but that's the reality.

644
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:47,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, when you were at zero, you had to send

645
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 2: everyone home because of the pandemic. So hybrid working for

646
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: thousands of people, and we've sort of seen this tension

647
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 2: since then as we come back to hybrid working in

648
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 2: the office. That connection, obviously, combined with knowledge, is the

649
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 2: key to human potential. Have we lost something inherently with

650
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 2: that sort of Workers obviously want flexibility and to be

651
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,280
Speaker 2: able to set their own hours and work from wherever

652
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 2: they want. But in your experience, having worked in lots

653
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 2: of different workplaces, lots of large teams, that connection that

654
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 2: people get in the workplaces at really gold.

655
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, there's no doubt that physical contact provides an

656
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:36,240
Speaker 3: opportunity for things to happen that are perhaps less planned,

657
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,439
Speaker 3: you know, those accidental collisions, those connections that you make. Look,

658
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,359
Speaker 3: the hybrid world of work is here to stay. And

659
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 3: what I mean by that is there'll be any range

660
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 3: of workplaces that are fully remote through to fully at

661
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 3: the office. The decision as to which way you go,

662
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 3: I think does depend a lot on what you're trying

663
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 3: to accomplish. And my view is your job is not

664
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 3: to stay with what's the answer, but to start with

665
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 3: what are we trying to accomplish and accomplishing that objective,

666
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 3: whatever it might be. What do we need to do

667
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 3: what needs to be done? And that's a question that

668
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 3: isn't asked often enough. We talk about why we do

669
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 3: what we do and what we're doing, but pause and

670
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 3: think about how are we going? How are we doing it?

671
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 3: So there's a question I always encourage people to ask,

672
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 3: which is of your team and your team members get

673
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 3: together and answer the question about how well with what

674
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 3: we have today, with the money, the resources and everything

675
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 3: else we have today, How well today, with what we

676
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,359
Speaker 3: have today, are we performing relative to what's possible as

677
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 3: a team, as a team, not as individuals as a team,

678
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 3: And the beauty of that conversation is you're not pointing

679
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 3: a finger as the manager, You're not pointing the finger

680
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 3: at any individual and score it out of ten and

681
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,720
Speaker 3: you'll find that I've experienced. My experience is that only

682
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 3: third twenty to forty percent of people I ask have

683
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 3: ever worked on a team they rated eight or more

684
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 3: out of ten. The rest of them, you know, a

685
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 3: good team is a six or seven. And so then

686
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 3: you say, well, what's the one thing you would do

687
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 3: to improve how you're working together, what the score is.

688
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 3: And ninety percent of those things have nothing to do

689
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 3: with the industry people are working in. It's all to

690
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 3: do with how humans are working together. There could be issues,

691
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 3: They're not clear, there could be they're misaligned, They're not

692
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 3: having honest conversations. There could be those issues. And by

693
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,879
Speaker 3: really focusing on that, you can start to see how

694
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 3: the potential your people and teams have can be improved

695
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 3: from where they are today.

696
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 2: Part five of the book is really the self help part.

697
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 2: It's condensing down what you call must do diagnostics, playbooks,

698
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 2: must do toolboxes. Tell us about some of these tools,

699
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 2: where they've come from, and how they might be useful

700
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 2: to people who are dealing with change, with the need

701
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 2: for alignment and having those hard conversations.

702
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:08,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, the tools, they're all tools that I've been taught

703
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 3: very little of It is something that I've sort of invented.

704
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 3: It's just the tools that good HR leaders. You know,

705
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 3: my brother's been influence and some of the stuff that

706
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 3: I do with the work he does, and a whole

707
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 3: bunch of reading as well as well. I'm a big reader.

708
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 3: On a lot of this domain. So I've taken those

709
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 3: tools and made it really easy for what you do

710
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 3: is you go to that part of the book and

711
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,720
Speaker 3: you say, here's a list of challenges you might be facing.

712
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 3: Here is what I would do in your situation, and

713
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 3: these are the steps you need to take. And it

714
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 3: was really important for me to add that into the

715
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 3: book because the why and the white Yeah, we get that,

716
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 3: it's the how how do I do that? How do

717
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 3: I have a hard conversation with someone who's not performing.

718
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 3: How do I get my team aligned when we're not

719
00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 3: on the same page. How do I look at my

720
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,320
Speaker 3: product organization and work out how I've got them focused

721
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 3: on delivering the right outcomes for the business. Those are

722
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 3: the things that are the biggest challenges I've faced, and

723
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 3: I've put in there the tools and the steps I've

724
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 3: taken and learned to take that help along the way.

725
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're all laid out there. That's incredibly useful

726
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 2: part of the book, along with those anecdotes that bring

727
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 2: them to life. How you use those tools, Just finally

728
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 2: interested to know what the future holds for you. You're

729
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 2: here in Wellington, You obviously love Wellington. Your sort of

730
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 2: roots are really in the Sydney area, but you're still

731
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 2: here intrigued to know what you take of sort of

732
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 2: what is going on in this city at the moment,

733
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 2: A city grappling like a lot in this country, a

734
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 2: lot of other cities with change, not enough money, huge

735
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 2: infrastructure issues. You've got a lot of people who aren't

736
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 2: necessarily in alignment on our councilor you've got a mayor

737
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 2: trained to wrangle all of these all of these people,

738
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 2: I mean, how do you how do you navigate this?

739
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 2: What are some of the tools that they should be

740
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 2: using to try and get through this intact?

741
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, that example and many others are examples of

742
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 3: how challenging chanin is. Change is, particularly at scale, and

743
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 3: I think again, it's not easy so and it's never perfect.

744
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 3: It's never changed. Big significant change never happens without upsetting people,

745
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 3: you know, and having to do things that you don't

746
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 3: necessarily enjoy. I mean, that's why if your conversations and

747
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 3: hard choices are avoided because we don't want to hurt people,

748
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,800
Speaker 3: we don't want to be the bad guy or girl whatever.

749
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:43,800
Speaker 3: But you know, it comes down in my view, to

750
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 3: making sure you don't make the mistake of moving too

751
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 3: fast into what we need to do before you've talked

752
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 3: about why and how. You know, why is change needed?

753
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 3: You've got to get agreement on that first, and then

754
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 3: how is change going to happen. It's almost like laying

755
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 3: out the map for how we're going to get to

756
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 3: the right actions before we actually try and throw ideas around.

757
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 3: I was sitting in a meeting a few years back

758
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 3: with a bunch of high profile business, government and other

759
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 3: leaders talking about tax reform in Australia and the workshop

760
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 3: was come up with your thoughts on this, And as

761
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 3: soon as we started the conversation, people were throwing out suggestions.

762
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 3: You know, raised GSD, cut GSD, raised my medicare levy,

763
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 3: and there was all these ideas and when it came

764
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 3: to me, I said, hang on a minute, before we

765
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 3: get into what we want to do here, why do

766
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 3: we need it? Are we clear and how are we

767
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,760
Speaker 3: going to get it? What's the process for getting reformed

768
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 3: to happen? So I would encourage and this is no

769
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 3: simple answer. There isn't one anyone, whether it's here in

770
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 3: Wellington or anywhere in the world, that's working on a

771
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,399
Speaker 3: complex change initiative to spend more time on the why

772
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,800
Speaker 3: and the how than they're inclined to, because we naturally

773
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 3: want to get to the what are we going to do?

774
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 3: Too fast and without the foundations, it's going to be

775
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 3: one person's opinion and judgment versus the other, not grounded

776
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 3: on something we collectively agree on.

777
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 2: So what's next for you? You've been a non executive

778
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:27,720
Speaker 2: director on a number of boards Medibank, Fletcher Building, Challenging

779
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 2: One as well. David Jones going through a huge change too.

780
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 2: Do you have another big CEO role and are you

781
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 2: moving more into this sort of directorships and mentoring and

782
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 2: that sort of stuff.

783
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:44,240
Speaker 3: Yeh. Look at this stage, Peter, I'm focused on something

784
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:48,240
Speaker 3: that I love doing, which is teaching and helping others

785
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 3: with their challenges around change and leading their organizations and teams.

786
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 3: So the book's a big focus getting the message out

787
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 3: and hopefully helping people by, you know, in a sense,

788
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 3: providing something that is the most positive feedback I could

789
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 3: get is that the book is useful. The people are

790
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 3: using it, going back to it as a handbook and

791
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 3: referring to sections of the book when they face different challenges,

792
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 3: and then speaking and providing whatever help I can. The

793
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 3: thing I'm most passionate about is seeing the quality of

794
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 3: leaders of people in our workplaces improve, because that will

795
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 3: improve the work life of people every day, which has

796
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 3: downstream effects on happier households, greater well being. And the

797
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 3: people leadership role is so important to so many aspects

798
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 3: of what goes on in our economy and in every

799
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 3: aspect of it that you know, it's just an area

800
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 3: where I want to shine a light on it, and

801
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 3: so we need to get invest more in developing our

802
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 3: people leaders to be the best they can be.

803
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,240
Speaker 2: Well, it's an incredibly useful book. I've already found parts

804
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 2: of it that resonate with me in which I will use,

805
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 2: So thanks for that. We'll put links to exactly where

806
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 2: you can find it. Thanks so much, it's been great

807
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 2: to meet you. Thanks for coming on. Good luck for

808
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 2: what's ahead for you.

809
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 3: Thanks Peter, really appreciate you having me so being.

810
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 2: Steve Vamos. All those companies he's worked for faced massive

811
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:28,479
Speaker 2: disruption Apple in the mid nineties and crisis IBM coming

812
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 2: out of the nineteen eighties, the mainframe Kings and not

813
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 2: really transition into the PC world particularly well nine MSN

814
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 2: you know a media company on the back of the

815
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 2: dot com crash, trying to monetize their content in a

816
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 2: very challenging world with Google and Facebook eating their lunch.

817
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:54,359
Speaker 2: Glad we've thought of that issue out, so he's sort

818
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 2: of seen it all probably, you know. The key thing

819
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 2: that reason with me is what he calls in there,

820
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 2: this mindset shift that you need to go through in

821
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 2: his opinion, from control freak to connector and enabler. And

822
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 2: it's clear from you know, his philosophy to management is

823
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 2: very much not be from the top. This is how

824
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 2: it will be done. Sure, you maybe need to do

825
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 2: that as a CEO, make the hard calls and have

826
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 2: the hard conversations, but very much about how do you

827
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 2: create this alignment? How do you bring four and a

828
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 2: half thousand people, for instance, at zero along with you?

829
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 2: And that autocratic, top down approach isn't going to cut

830
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 2: it anymore, particularly with the modern millennial workforce, that they're

831
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 2: not going to buy into that sort of change. And

832
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 2: it's you know, a lot of the CEOs we talk to,

833
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 2: they sort of spout this sort of mantra, but living it,

834
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 2: when it comes down to it, is really difficult. So

835
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 2: how do you actually live this on a day to

836
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,439
Speaker 2: day basis, and it comes down to things like being

837
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 2: willing to listen, to go into a meeting and ask

838
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,799
Speaker 2: for feedback about your performance, which is the sort of

839
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 2: things that Steve has been doing through his career, and

840
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 2: having empathy for people in the organization who are going

841
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,840
Speaker 2: through that massive change. If you can't demonstrate that you

842
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 2: truly have that empathy for them, they're not going to

843
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 2: buy into the massive change that you want to go through.

844
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: It's crazy, isn't it. Who would have thought two way

845
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 1: communication is the key to good relationships?

846
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 3: You know.

847
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: I mean it's maybe it's the millennial in me, but

848
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: that's just something that I've heard many many times growing up,

849
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 1: you know, particularly around making personal relationships work. But I

850
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 1: think we're starting to realize that. And maybe it's because

851
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 1: we've had that message so often that now the modern

852
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 1: workforce expects it in the workplace too. Workplaces are expecting

853
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: more of people as we go on in life, and

854
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 1: so if you want to get more out of them,

855
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: then you need to treat them like human beings and

856
00:49:57,640 --> 00:49:58,800
Speaker 1: not like cogs in a machine.

857
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you look at all of our institutions at

858
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 2: the moment, and they're all grappling with this. Look at

859
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 2: the health sector, you know you've got massive change budget cuts,

860
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 2: scrapping most of their digital and data division at the moment,

861
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:15,799
Speaker 2: so you'll have a lot of people in there and

862
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 2: a lot of critics saying this is the wrong direction

863
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 2: to go in. How are you ever going to get

864
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:22,879
Speaker 2: people on board with this sort of change. So that's

865
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 2: the I think where the rubber hits the row. To

866
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,359
Speaker 2: Steve puts it as the difficult conversations and you have

867
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 2: to push through change and you have to be a

868
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 2: change agent. It's an unsustainable position to have, you know,

869
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:40,720
Speaker 2: big budget losses and that sort of thing be blowing

870
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 2: the budget. But how do you bring all the people

871
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 2: along so that the future for the organization is going

872
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:47,760
Speaker 2: to retain all of that talent really difficult, and every

873
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 2: organization around the world, we've got so many of them

874
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 2: in New Zealand at the moment that are really in

875
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 2: the midst of that, and frankly a lot of them

876
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 2: not grappling with it very well. We do have these charismatic,

877
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 2: visionary leaders who are quite brutal about pushing change through.

878
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 2: But I think what Steve is basically saying is when

879
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 2: you have someone who is incredibly visionary and has you

880
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 2: have to have a real strong vision of where the

881
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 2: organization needs to go. But that alone is not enough,

882
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 2: as we're seeing with some of these sort of tech

883
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:26,840
Speaker 2: leaders who push through massive change. How sustainable is that?

884
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 2: And I think we're seeing wheels come off a little

885
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:34,280
Speaker 2: bit in Elon Musk's Empire, is that people are jumping

886
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 2: off that train that he is driving because they've just

887
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 2: had enough. So how sustainable is your approach as a

888
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 2: change agent? Are you just burning people up and casting

889
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 2: them aside in order to achieve your big vision? Eventually

890
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 2: you're going to end up alone. Yeah?

891
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: All right, Well that's it for this week, and we've

892
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:01,800
Speaker 1: only got two episodes to goh for twenty twenty four.

893
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 2: Thanks so much to Steve Vamos's book Through Shifts and Shocks,

894
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 2: Lessons from the Frontline of Technology and Changes, out now

895
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 2: from publisher Wiley, in bookstores and on Amazon. We'll put

896
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 2: a link to where you can find it.

897
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 1: That's it for this week. Only two episodes to go

898
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: for twenty twenty.

899
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 2: Four, and next week is a real goodie. We catch

900
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 2: up with some of the country's best journalists who've covered

901
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 2: a year of major change in all things tech to

902
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 2: get their highlights from twenty twenty four and what to

903
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 2: expect next year. It'll be packed with useful insights.

904
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 1: Show notes for the business of tech. In the podcast

905
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: section of Business Desk dot co, dot z, where you

906
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,359
Speaker 1: can stream this podcast in full every week. It's also

907
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: available for iHeartRadio or on your podcast platform off Joyce.

908
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 2: Get in touch with your feedback and we'd love to

909
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 2: hear your suggestions for upcoming guests. To email Ben benat

910
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 2: Business deesk dot co, dot z.

911
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:55,360
Speaker 1: You can also find us on LinkedIn, port blue Sky.

912
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 2: Another episode coming your way next Thursday, so then have

913
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 2: a great week.

914
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 3: You don't have a boot